Thicket of Blades

[Max Caysey]

So... does Thicket of Blades work against Spring Attack?

[Talya]

So... does Thicket of Blades work against Spring Attack?

Yes. Thicket of blades's specific purpose is that any movement at all within your threatened range provokes an attack of opportunity, regardless of any other abilities to prevent attacks of opportunity.

[Curmudgeon]

Of course, if you Tumble during your Spring Attack move action you can still avoid the Thicket of Blades problem. Both of these (Thicket of Blades and Tumble) make absolute statements about provoking/avoiding AoOs. The tie-breaker is the Primary Sources Errata Rule, which says (essentially) that the Tome of Battle authors were idiots not to add a specific mention of Tumble where they say "including a 5-foot step". Without an explicit override, Tumble wins this disagreement.

[Person_Man]

Of course, if you Tumble during your Spring Attack move action you can still avoid the Thicket of Blades problem. Both of these (Thicket of Blades and Tumble) make absolute statements about provoking/avoiding AoOs. The tie-breaker is the Primary Sources Errata Rule, which says (essentially) that the Tome of Battle authors were idiots not to add a specific mention of Tumble where they say "including a 5-foot step". Without an explicit override, Tumble wins this disagreement.

+1

Also, D&D is an exception based game. You have a general rule that everyone follows. And then you have a bunch of class abilities/feats/spells/etc that allow you to basically ignore or modify those rules. Specific trumps general. But in a case where you have two specific exceptions contradict each other, and you cannot logically resolve them with within text of those exceptions, the DM basically just needs to pick which one applies.

[Gwendol]

Yes, this is the right way to handle the stance. The Knight ability Vigilant Defender ups the DC of tumbling through threatened squares though, if you want to make a crusader/knight.

[Max Caysey]

Thanks...



If my enemy is prone inside my threadened area and he moves while prone (Crawls), which provoke an attack of oppotunity, and I have thicket of Blades... do I get two attacks of oppotunity against him?

NB: Im wielding a spiked chain!

[Anxe]

Oh God. You do. The normal attack is provoked when they leave. The Thicket attack is provoked while they're still in the square.

This is assuming your DM lets you get away with such shenanigans. I would 'cause you're still not at the level of caster shenanigans.

[Max Caysey]

That was also my thought :smallamused:


I have one more question concerning this kind of stuff:

If I have the Hold the Line feat, and I wear Steadfast boots, and my enemy charges me, do I get two attack against him? One for being ready (set), by way of the boots, and one for having Hold the Line?

Thanks in advance!

[Anxe]

I think so. Sort of weird to imagine a spiked chain readied against a charge though. But it's a magic ability, so maybe the chain stiffens and you brace it against a rock. That sounds kinda cool.

FIND ALL THE AoO EXPLOITS!

[Max Caysey]

I think so. Sort of weird to imagine a spiked chain readied against a charge though. But it's a magic ability, so maybe the chain stiffens and you brace it against a rock. That sounds kinda cool.

FIND ALL THE AoO EXPLOITS!

I look at it more like rules that should be followed... if surtain stuff is combined!

BTW... Was there ever a conclusion about Knock-Down and Improved Trip combination?

As always... Thanks in advance!

[Gwendol]

Readying a weapon against a charge isn't normally an AoO anyway.

[Malak'ai]

Readying a weapon against a charge isn't normally an AoO anyway.

No, but Hold the Line allows you to make an AoO against an enemy entering your threatened area.
With that said, by my calculations he's get 3 attacks. One from being Readied (Steadfast Boots), one from Hold the Line and another from Thicket of Blades.

[Max Caysey]

No, but Hold the Line allows you to make an AoO against an enemy entering your threatened area.
With that said, by my calculations he's get 3 attacks. One from being Readied (Steadfast Boots), one from Hold the Line and another from Thicket of Blades.

Dang...

I'm actually impressed I forgot that. But it seems legit!

I was doing some light reading, The Tripping Handbook, and in that book(lets call it that), he had created a tripper with a +35 for trip attempts as level 20.

Now the one I have got right now, is level 9 and has +18, and for some added gold, I would be able to get that to +22(+24 if Sweeping gives +4. Not sure with 3.5)

Is it possible that someone here could "guide" me and tell me if +20 ish is doing thingns right at level 9?

[Melcar]

Dang...

I'm actually impressed I forgot that. But it seems legit!

I was doing some light reading, The Tripping Handbook, and in that book(lets call it that), he had created a tripper with a +35 for trip attempts as level 20.

Now the one I have got right now, is level 9 and has +18, and for some added gold, I would be able to get that to +22(+24 if Sweeping gives +4. Not sure with 3.5)

Is it possible that someone here could "guide" me and tell me if +20 ish is doing thingns right at level 9?

I believe that with full trip optimization you shoud be somewhat higher than 20

[Max Caysey]

I have found this bit of interesting text:


If you are in the thicket of blades stance and an opponent tumbles past you, do you get an attack of opportunity? Yes, you can make an attack of opportunity even if an opponent uses Tumble or other types of movement that would normally not allow you to make them, such as the Spring Attack feat.

It is taken from the FAQ 3.5.

[Curmudgeon]

I have found this bit of interesting text:

It is taken from the FAQ 3.5.
That's yet another example of the FAQ author ignoring the official rules and substituting a house rule instead.

[Max Caysey]

That's yet another example of the FAQ author ignoring the official rules and substituting a house rule instead.

I was not aware that the FAQ was houserules? This to me seems strange. I'll give you, that like all other things it should not be considered absolute authority, but houserules... I'm not so sure!

[Darrin]

I was not aware that the FAQ was houserules? This to me seems strange. I'll give you, that like all other things it should not be considered absolute authority, but houserules... I'm not so sure!

The FAQ does not count as official rules or errata. It's slightly more authoritative than someone else's house rules, in that it comes from someone employed by WotC, but unfortunately the FAQ is a hodgepodge of different people at different times who do not always have an exhaustive command of all of the sourcebooks or prior rulings. The FAQ has a tendency to contradict itself or even get some things blatantly wrong. Until the FAQ ruling has been codified into a new sourcebook or an official Errata publication, it's still considered "Rules As Interpretted" (RAI) instead of "Rules As Written" (RAW) for those of us who tend to pedantic about such things.

[SinsI]

Of course, if you Tumble during your Spring Attack move action you can still avoid the Thicket of Blades problem. Both of these (Thicket of Blades and Tumble) make absolute statements about provoking/avoiding AoOs. The tie-breaker is the Primary Sources Errata Rule, which says (essentially) that the Tome of Battle authors were idiots not to add a specific mention of Tumble where they say "including a 5-foot step". Without an explicit override, Tumble wins this disagreement.

The problem with this interpretation is that Thicket of Blades lists both "any movement" and "even a 5-foot step". If you exclude from "any movement" "5-foot step" and all the Tumble/Spring Attacks, you are left with ordinary movement that provokes attacks of opportunity already - making the whole mention of "any movement" completely useless, as Thicket of Blades would prevent only "5-foot step".

I think "any movement" should only affect all the movement types that existed at the moment of creation of said ability - thus I'd rule that Tumble only stops the normal attacks of opportunity caused by movement (as that was the only thing it did at creation), it shouldn't work on any feats or class features that add additional conditions, like Thicket of Blades.

[Curmudgeon]

The problem with this interpretation is that Thicket of Blades lists both "any movement" and "even a 5-foot step". If you exclude from "any movement" "5-foot step" and all the Tumble/Spring Attacks, you are left with ordinary movement that provokes attacks of opportunity already - making the whole mention of "any movement" completely useless, as Thicket of Blades would prevent only "5-foot step".
That, as I said once, means the Tome of Battle authors were idiots not to add a specific mention of Tumble.
Tumble at one-half speed as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. This, too, is an absolute statement — and it came first, so it was a known specific rule long before Thicket of Blades was created.

If you follow the disagreement resolution procedures, Thicket of Blades loses out to anything in the Player's Handbook. It's not my fault the ToB authors screwed up here, and that WotC never provided proper errata. It's a judgment call anyway which you prefer to "win" here, and it makes my life simpler if I don't create extra house rules.

[Max Caysey]

Just so I have this right... There have been no "official" erreta on Thicket of Blades?

[Melcar]

Thanks...



If my enemy is prone inside my threadened area and he moves while prone (Crawls), which provoke an attack of oppotunity, and I have thicket of Blades... do I get two attacks of oppotunity against him?

NB: Im wielding a spiked chain!

I believe that you get three: One for crawling, one for moving out of a threatened area and one for thicket of blades.

[Curmudgeon]

Just so I have this right... There have been no "official" erreta on Thicket of Blades?
That's right. The official Tome of Battle Errata file actually goes through page 77 of the book (and is junk afterward: excerpts from the Tome of Magic Errata). Thicket of Blades is on page 61 and there's no change to that.

[JaronK]

I was not aware that the FAQ was houserules? This to me seems strange. I'll give you, that like all other things it should not be considered absolute authority, but houserules... I'm not so sure!

While the FAQ is at times poorly written, it is the Official Rules FAQ. That's actually the name of it. It's completely RAW, since it's always more specific than anything it talks about.

I might not like the things it says, but it's definitely RAW.

JaronK

[SinsI]

That, as I said once, means the Tome of Battle authors were idiots not to add a specific mention of Tumble. This, too, is an absolute statement — and it came first, so it was a known specific rule long before Thicket of Blades was created.

If you follow the disagreement resolution procedures, Thicket of Blades loses out to anything in the Player's Handbook. It's not my fault the ToB authors screwed up here, and that WotC never provided proper errata. It's a judgment call anyway which you prefer to "win" here, and it makes my life simpler if I don't create extra house rules.

Tumble disables the attacks of opportunity that are created by normal movement. Moving inside the reach of Thicket of Blades triggers not "attacks of opportunity" rule, but "activating the ability of Thicket of Blades" rule, that afterward provokes attacks of opportunity.

[Max Caysey]

I believe that you get three: One for crawling, one for moving out of a threatened area and one for thicket of blades.

Can this be true???

[Curmudgeon]

Tumble disables the attacks of opportunity that are created by normal movement. Moving inside the reach of Thicket of Blades triggers not "attacks of opportunity" rule, but "activating the ability of Thicket of Blades" rule, that afterward provokes attacks of opportunity.
Let's look at it the other way around. Thicket of Blades causes a threatened creature who takes "any sort of movement" provoke an AoO.
Tumble at one-half speed as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. So, as long as the Tumbler's movement is normal, it avoids those AoOs. That means Thicket of Blades is left to work on abnormal movement.

[Ortesk]

Dang...

I'm actually impressed I forgot that. But it seems legit!

I was doing some light reading, The Tripping Handbook, and in that book(lets call it that), he had created a tripper with a +35 for trip attempts as level 20.

Now the one I have got right now, is level 9 and has +18, and for some added gold, I would be able to get that to +22(+24 if Sweeping gives +4. Not sure with 3.5)

Is it possible that someone here could "guide" me and tell me if +20 ish is doing thingns right at level 9?

+20 at level 9 is okay if our not trying to hard. If your optimizing for it with everything uyou can do, no not that good

[Gwendol]

I believe that you get three: One for crawling, one for moving out of a threatened area and one for thicket of blades.

No, you get two: one for crawling and one for moving out of a threatened area. You can't get an AoO twice for the same infraction.

[Gwendol]

Tumble disables the attacks of opportunity that are created by normal movement. Moving inside the reach of Thicket of Blades triggers not "attacks of opportunity" rule, but "activating the ability of Thicket of Blades" rule, that afterward provokes attacks of opportunity.

It's one interpretation. Likewise, the absolute statement about tumbling not provoking can certainly be argued to cover even the Thicket of Blades stance. As written, the stance really just prevents 5-steps, and there is no mention whatsoever it counters tumble. Compare with the Knight: BoD prevents 5' steps by defining threatened area as difficult terrain (thus no 5' step), and it also doubles the movement cost of tumble (but you can still do it). Vigilant defender increases the DC for tumbling past the knight, but still doesn't automatically trigger an AoO. With this in mind, I find it quite clear the authors did not intend the stance to counter tumble, just 5' steps.

[Max Caysey]

No, you get two: one for crawling and one for moving out of a threatened area. You can't get an AoO twice for the same infraction.

Sure?

To me it seems that there are 3 individual oppotunities...

[Gwendol]

Thicket of blades isn't a separate provocation, it just adds 5' steps to movement that provokes an AoO.

[Max Caysey]

Thicket of blades isn't a separate provocation, it just adds 5' steps to movement that provokes an AoO.

Im pretty sure it would also ad moving into a threatened square, like a charge... it says any movement in the description of the feat. Even withdraw triggers an AoO from thicket...


Something else interesting hit me... The feat Stand Still, from Expanded Psionic Handbook, would that be able to negate or prohibit someone from standing up from prone? I mean standing op is a move action, and since stand still ends once movement, I'm thinking that this could be used to deny someone or prohibit someone from standing op from prone!

What is the thoughts on this???

[Gwendol]

Ah, yes. Didn't consider that, and it might work provided the entered square is one you threaten. Regarding standstill that's exactly how you use it.

[Devronq]

Dang...

I'm actually impressed I forgot that. But it seems legit!

I was doing some light reading, The Tripping Handbook, and in that book(lets call it that), he had created a tripper with a +35 for trip attempts as level 20.

Now the one I have got right now, is level 9 and has +18, and for some added gold, I would be able to get that to +22(+24 if Sweeping gives +4. Not sure with 3.5)

Is it possible that someone here could "guide" me and tell me if +20 ish is doing thingns right at level 9?

+35 seems a very low optimization for a trip at level 20 I mean ban 20+ imp trip +4 and ability score +11 is 35 right there I'm sure you could do tonnes more I'm sure someone could make 50 no sweat

[Max Caysey]

+35 seems a very low optimization for a trip at level 20 I mean ban 20+ imp trip +4 and ability score +11 is 35 right there I'm sure you could do tonnes more I'm sure someone could make 50 no sweat

You know its just a strenght check right... BaB has nothing to do with it... And feats and what not!