Defense against a swordsage.

[GargantuanOwl]

I am currently in a campaign in the eberron setting and have come up against a swordsage who is focused around using the maneuver greater insightful strike. My first encounter with this character proved less than ideal for me and to make a long story short the character was just toying with me and I woke up in a ditch. I am a level 10 gestalted monk/psychic warrior and I wanted to know if there was anyway that I could better combat this character when I meet him again later on in our campaign. I'm interested in specifically preventing him from using that ability but any help on general swordsage defense would be much appreciated.

[gorfnab]

Learn his tricks: Swordsage Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196531)

Dont' get hit. Insightful Strike, Greater only works if he hits you. Consider ways to boost your AC, gain concealment of some kind, attack at range, use hit and run style tactics.

What is your build (race, feats, powers, etc) and what gear do you have? What is the rest of the party playing?

[Red Fel]

As a general rule, ToB classes tend to be melee-oriented (with one particular notable exception). Staying at range is an easy way to limit the power of a Swordsage (although Shadow Blink can change that pretty quickly).

With regard to Insightful Strike (and its Greater big brother), remember several things.

1: GIS, like most Strike maneuvers, requires a standard action. If you can take steps that prevent the Swordsage from making a standard action, he can't use his Strikes.

2: GIS, like most Diamond Mind maneuvers, requires a Concentration check. If you can do things that prevent the Swordsage from making a Concentration check, or at least things that decrease his Con modifier or increase the Concentration DC, he can't use GIS.

3: Swordsages have a terrible recovery mechanic for maneuvers. If you can somehow get him to exhaust his readied maneuvers (not easy or safe), he will need to take a full round action to recover them (or longer, if he did not take Adaptive Style). That's a window of relative vulnerability.

4: What Gorfnab said. Don't get hit.

[Xerlith]

How is your Hide skill? Miss chance is your great ally against any melee character in general.
You might want to learn the Shrouded Dance skill trick.
By using it, you can attempt to gain concealment as a move action.
How about dipping Warblade for Wall of Blades? If you can get a decent to-hit, you can easily deflect any attack with this counter.

[Red Fel]

How about dipping Warblade for Wall of Blades? If you can get a decent to-hit, you can easily deflect any attack with this counter.

You can also parry rays with your hands, which is ridiculously cool and totally Monk-worthy.

[GargantuanOwl]

I shall try to keep staying at a distance in mind though it might be hard due to my character being melee based and his personality tends to lead him to fisticuffs but I have a few powers that can hit at a range. And as far as my build goes,
-human
-monk/psychic warrior
- feats- sacred vow/vow of poverty/improved grapple/combat reflexes/improved trip/combat expertise/karmic strike/dodge/ expanded knowledge(energy ray)/ improved natural attack(bite)
-powers- catfall/expansion/bite of the wolf/body adjustment/body purification/psionic lions charge/wall walker/ exhalation of the black dragon/ energy ray/dimensional door.

[Kuulvheysoon]

If you can nab it, a power stone of (greater) concealing amphorae would be immeasurably helpful - it'll grant you miss chances, which he can't ignore (especially as the miss chances granted by those 2 powers are actually real, not illusions).

[Thrawn183]

Well, the vow of poverty makes things more difficult, no way to cover any weaknesses or problems with magic items.

The only thing I can think of is taking Kuulvheysoon's advice and learning a concealing amorpha power or another defensive power like Shield.

Also, why not use Claws of the Beast? I'm assuming you're using unarmed strikes, so it would give you an extra two natural weapon attacks on your full attack routine.

[Red Fel]

Well, the vow of poverty makes things more difficult, no way to cover any weaknesses or problems with magic items.

Yeah, going with this. VoP really, really hurts a melee build like yours. And I'm assuming the Swordsage is under no such restriction.

This basically forces you to either
Let a party member deal with it for you
Select powers you might otherwise not have chosen
Dip a class you might otherwise not have wanted to take
Because basically, VoP has hindered your ability, as a primarily melee build, to successfully engage in melee.

That's a problem, chief.

[Radar]

Thanks to the Expansion power you should have more reach then the swordsage. This is an advantage, you can use. If he is not in range, goad him into coming at you and ready an action to trip him at the first opportunity. If he is in range trip the hell out of him. Once the swordsage is on the ground, procede with kicking and pummeling. Did I mention, that standing up provokes AoO? With Improved Trip you can use an AoO to trip him again. :smalltongue:

edit: you can also do this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf8oZGHDTt4).

[GargantuanOwl]

Ya I took the vow of poverty because my character had his life saved by another PC and he indebted his life to him giving up everything he had to be his body guard.

[GargantuanOwl]

But unfortunately I must fight this swordsage myself in a tournament.

[CyberThread]

may sound weird, but a light spell, can mess up a swordsages tactics.

If you have aura damage (things that do damage if something touches you), can be a good way to fend off a swordsage, if your forced to fight it for a long term battle.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Hmm... can you get a friendly psion to manifest psychic reformation on you? Your power selection could use a bit of a modification, especially since you're a VoP character.

Also, what feats did you select as your bonus Exalted feats? I'm hoping that you picked Touch of Golden Ice, at the very least.

[Stegyre]

1. Be aware you are fighting a higher level (min. ECL 11) opponent, with what is generally regarded as a better class, so the deck is stacked against you.

2. VoP is crippling you. As you may learn by reading these forums, it cripples any build but especially cripples a build like yours, which really depends on equipment -- well-used WBL could make a big difference in a fight like this, just with some good power stones.

3. By my count, you likely have a good defense, and you should probably use every bit of it: max Cbt Exp bonus plus fight defensively, on top of everything else. By my count, he needs substantial bonuses to hit you on anything other than a 20. You'll need help to hit him, too, but you don't rely upon maneuvers that he must, at a minimum, spend a full-round action to replenish.

4. Grapple, obviously: you've built for grappling, so grapple him. As ToB notes (p. 39), "f you begin your turn grappled or pinned, you might find that most of the maneuvers available to you simply won't be of any use until you get free." If you pin him, he is immobile, and by RAW [I]cannot use any maneuvers (see ToB at 38: "To initiate a maneuver or a stance, you must be able to move.")

[GargantuanOwl]

I'm sure I could find someone to manifest psychic reformation on me. Any suggestions on powers I should take. This is my first psionic character so I'm not too familiar with them.

[GargantuanOwl]

And I do have touch of golden ice. I went through and got all of the exhaulted feats I could that would apply to my character.

[Stegyre]

I'm sure I could find someone to manifest psychic reformation on me. Any suggestions on powers I should take. This is my first psionic character so I'm not too familiar with them.
Vigor: a much better choice than Body Adjustment.

Here's an overview of psionic powers: here (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/946531).

[Gwendol]

Yes, grappling him is one of your better choices. Can you use expansion? Getting large is a huge advantage for grapplers (pun intended).

[Artillery]

Get a Psicrystal and do the Share-Pain, Vigor Combo.

Did you do gestalt Monk 10/PsyWarrior 10? That is rough. You would be farther ahead doing, Full bab or full casting on one half, Monk 1/Psywarrior 9 on the other half. Tashalatora to get the main benefits from monk.

Psion Egoist 10//Monk 1/Psywarrior 9 You would be in a great place for a king of smack build.

[Stegyre]

Here's a little more:
1st level (3): Vigor, Inertial Armor, Expansion
2nd level (3): Animal Affinity, Detect Hostile Intent, Hustle
3rd level (3): Empathic Transfer, Hostile; Dimension Door;
4th level (1):

Feats to lose: Dodge, Karmic Strike (don’t get something that depends upon people hitting you). I'd also probably change the Expanded Knowledge feat to a different power.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Consider adding greater concealing amphorae as a 3rd level power - your ML is 10, so it should last an entire combat in a single manifestation.

Maybe switch over one of your EKs to dimension hop (CPsi)? Never underestimate swift action tactical teleportation.

As for your 4th level power... psionic dim door actually isn't too bad of a choice, considering what else they have at that level. Mind you, you don't have to pick a 4th level power if you don't want to - that's just your maximum power level. Feel free to pick another 3rd level power, if you so choose.

[Darrin]

How's the Swordsage's will save? Hit him with a rage spell, and he can't use his Concentration skill at all.

[Kuulvheysoon]

How's the Swordsage's will save? Hit him with a rage spell, and he can't use his Concentration skill at all.

Likely good, I'd guess, seeing as how Swordsages get a Good Will save, and use Wisdom for some of their class abilities.

...but I'll admit, that was the first thing that came to me as well.

[Red Fel]

Except that he'll probably use Moment of Perfect Mind to substitute a Concentration check for the Will save and... Same problem.

[bekeleven]

3: Swordsages have a terrible recovery mechanic for maneuvers. If you can somehow get him to exhaust his readied maneuvers (not easy or safe), he will need to take a full round action to recover them (or longer, if he did not take Adaptive Style). That's a window of relative vulnerability.
There are swordsages without adaptive style?

[CyberThread]

Yes they did not adapt and died during the ice age.

[Red Fel]

There are swordsages without adaptive style?

Not every NPC is a smart NPC.

[CyberThread]

seriously.. a light spell counters them..

[Kuulvheysoon]

seriously.. a light spell counters them..

Okay, I'll bite. How do you figure that?

[Stegyre]

There are swordsages without adaptive style?
Even with Adaptive Style, they have the worst recovery mechanic, especially for a 1v1 duel: he's going to have to sacrifice a full-round action to recover.

[Callin]

But he can change up his set up to fit however his mark is reacting. Staying at range ok pick up Shadow Jaunt and Shadow Garrote type maneuvers. Or work in Settin Sun stuff and make him a Rag Doll.

Its not about getting your Maneuvers back (though its great for that) its about versatility. And that to me makes it better than Warblade (swift action followed by an Attack or Standard doing nothing) or Crusader (well im outta powers lets randomize some new ones). They only get back what they have readied that day.

[Feint's End]

Ok here is what you gotta do. First ask if you get Psychic Reformation casted if you could retroactively change your second level feat to the Mantled Warrior ACF and get the Freedom Mantle for Dimension Hop and Flight.

Also don't pick energy ray ... much rather spend your feat on Expanded Knowledge (Energy Missile) and target him, his weapon, his armor ... whatever you can think of. 10d6-10 sonic damage which ignore hardness should pretty much destroy his gear.

why do you have bite of the wolf and Improved Natural Attack (Bite)? You can't combine Flurry and natural weapons in any way as by FAQ (I know it's debateable so it depends on your table I guess) .... much rather spend it on your unarmed attacks!
At level 10 you could look at the unarmed damage of a level 19 monk (monksbelt and superior unarmed strike) +3 size increases (the real damage of every unarmed fighter or natural weapon fighter should come from size increases and not strength). So that should be 6d8+mods per hit IIRC. ... Oh and get Snapkick for another attack (also works on AOOs).

The Swordsage will probably deal an average of around 50ish damage with his strike but with just some tweaking you could easily dish out more than 100. It would be nice to know your stats btw.

I just assume you are strength based and have a strength of 22 (before expansion) so with expansion you are at 26. and also some way of boosting your unarmed attacks to magic (amulett of natural weapons I hope for you) +1.

to hit should be: +7(bab)+8(str)+1(magic)-2(snap kick) so all together:
+14/+14/+14/+9
the Snap kick deals an average of 6d8+5 (str/2+magic)= 34
regular attacks 6d8+9 (str+magic)=38

so potentially 148 damage .... even if you just hit twice you will almost certainly oneroundkill the swordsage .... and the best of all? You can do this with just reselecting some feats and buying a monksbelt (the build still works without but the damageboosts are significant at this level).

Just one problem left ... how to move and full attack? And the answer to this question is the always popular dimension hop ... swift action teleport for cheap. Sure if you have to cover big distances it's not really optimal but it will definitely be sufficient for any close range combat.