orc having to go another path

[HALFORCSTEVE]

OK so I am in a 3.5 campaign and we had a tank but he is no longer playing so my guy is having to change. This is my issue I am playing a large orc with a great sword and I was trying to build a great cleaver to run through enemy's but now I'm gonna have to have heavy armor. I'm only lvl 2 right now with the build but I would like to know what i should be looking for to keep my movement high and my armor high?

[Red Fel]

You're giving two different objectives. On the one hand, you say you want to be a tank (which, admittedly, is not an easy concept in 3.5 mechanics). On the other, you say you want to charge through enemies with a greatsword, which is... Not tanking.

Which is it?

[lytokk]

I think he was saying that the tank left, and now as the beefiest party member, he has to take over tanking. So he's going to tank, but he wants to maintain the movement speed and damage dealing.

Running on that assumption, and another that you're playing barbarian, you're limited to light and medium armors for your fast movement. Simple solution, stick to a chain shirt. That is, until you can afford to pick up some mithril armor in the medium category. Amulets of regeneration or some form of damage reduction can keep you in a tanking role. Also, if you're committed to the greatsword, try the feat monkey grip. I'm not 100% on this, but I would think if you're using a large sized greatsword, you should have reach at that point, considering the size of the weapon. Get combat reflexes and cleave your way through attacks of opportunity.

If monkey grip doesn't work like that, then find some weapon that can and still be used against adjacent foes.

Otherwise, use the party resources to hire an NPC tank.

[Red Fel]

The problem is that tanking in D&D doesn't just mean being beefy and able to take a hit. It means forcing an enemy to hit you instead of the squishy people behind you. And a smart, mobile enemy will ignore the big guy armed with nothing more than a sword and some biceps in favor of the squishy in robes flinging fireballs.

Being able to tank means focusing a build on that. Being able to lay on the damage helps, but is not the focus of such a build. And a beatstick who charges into the throng of enemies to carve them up, while he may kill some and thus prevent the ones he kills from hurting his squishies, does not actually protect the squishies in any other capacity.

Hence why I was asking whether he wanted to focus on tanking, or on shredding. They don't easily coincide.

[lytokk]

My misunderstanding then.
Maybe HALFORCSTEVE can give us a little bit more information other than level and race? You said you were level 2, but in what classes? Is the DM forcing you to change your focus, or is it something the party's expecting of you, or is it something you assume you're going to have to do?

[Gwendol]

Don't take monkey grip. Using larger sized weapons isn't that much of an advantage.

Add some levels of dungeoncrasher fighter, pick up improved bull rush, and shock trooper later. You will be more or less all set after that.

[Daftendirekt]

Also, if you're committed to the greatsword, try the feat monkey grip. I'm not 100% on this, but I would think if you're using a large sized greatsword, you should have reach at that point, considering the size of the weapon. Get combat reflexes and cleave your way through attacks of opportunity.

If monkey grip doesn't work like that, then find some weapon that can and still be used against adjacent foes.

It does not work that way. Monkey Grip is generally considered a pretty crappy feat, giving you a negative to attacks for using a larger weapon in return for a pretty marginal damage increase. If you want to tank, get mithral medium armor ASAP like mentioned previously. For cleaving and reach goodness, get a polearm like a glaive and then spiked gauntlets or armor spikes. You now have reach, and also threaten adjacent with your spikes. Barbarians are actually pretty good tanks purely because they're the only d12 HD class (and raging only makes them more durable).

[Spore]

Stay at your medium armor, because you possibly have enough Dex to make it worthwhile while avoiding hefty armor penalties. Other than that, focus your gold spendage on AC items and make yourself the most dangerous mofo around.

[lytokk]

Yeah, I figured it wouldn't work like that, I'm still re-learning a lot of optimization rules, since what I thought was good years ago I'm finding out really was crap. Doesn't Crusader or Warblade have a d12? One of them does. I think its crusader, and gets a lot of tanking abilities too.

[Daftendirekt]

Yeah, I figured it wouldn't work like that, I'm still re-learning a lot of optimization rules, since what I thought was good years ago I'm finding out really was crap. Doesn't Crusader or Warblade have a d12? One of them does. I think its crusader, and gets a lot of tanking abilities too.

Warblade does, yeah, but it's the only other one I believe, and I was assuming he wasn't going that direction considering the low-op sound of his character.

[Red Fel]

Pity, because the intersection of Barbarian and Crusader has some surprisingly good tanking potential. Between Barb's raw beefitude and fast movement, and Crusader's stances and spot-healing, it takes fairly little to completely lock down any threat to the rest of the party.

[The Insanity]

Offense is the best defense. Just make sure you are able to kill your opponents as fast as possible and you should be fine. Maybe add some battlefield control into the mix, like tripping. If you have a decent Dex, take Combat Reflexes, a reach weapon and use your AoOs to trip the dudes that will try to just ignore and walk past you.

[HALFORCSTEVE]

ok so sorry for lack of info I'm a 1st lvl fighter and I just hit 2nd lvl so I can make changes now if I want my guy is large so I have a large great sword. I have med armor now but If i jump to heavy armor I'm going to loose out on movement. Str is my main state at 26 my con is 16 and dex 15 he is an oorge orc my whole build was going to be for cleaving so I have the cleave feat now but should I just move my build now and go a different direction we have a battle wizard, healer, and two archers now, and a rouge. Thanks for all the help first time on this forum and it is very helpfull

[sideswipe]

if you want medium armor then with a dex of plus two mod you want to aim for - mithril heavy plate. you wont be able to afford it for a while but its a nice long term goal :) it costs 500 more than mithril full plate but for that you get 9 armor instead of 8 and your max dex is two. which is your dex mod. since its mithril its medium armor. and its the biggest medium armor you can get (when mithril) and requires no feats to use as you have med armor proficiency.

it only sets you back 11000 gold im pretty sure.

heavy plate is in races of stone

[Red Fel]

ok so sorry for lack of info I'm a 1st lvl fighter and I just hit 2nd lvl so I can make changes now if I want my guy is large so I have a large great sword. I have med armor now but If i jump to heavy armor I'm going to loose out on movement. Str is my main state at 26 my con is 16 and dex 15 he is an oorge orc my whole build was going to be for cleaving so I have the cleave feat now but should I just move my build now and go a different direction we have a battle wizard, healer, and two archers now, and a rouge. Thanks for all the help first time on this forum and it is very helpfull

Okay. So we've got an Orc Fighter. Good to know.

First rule: Always take an even number of Fighter levels. That bonus feat is worth it. So you'll want to take Fighter 2 before you decide whether to switch to another class.

Now, it is possible to keep up your damage while turning this build into a nice, juicy tank, if that is what you want. That said, your party really shouldn't need a "tank" in the MMO sense. The Insanity is correct - the best defense is a good offense. If you can kill enemies before they hit your squishies, you've defended your squishies. Cleave is a good way to score extra hits, provided that you can down your enemies. Your Strength bonus will be an excellent boost to that. Right now, if you want to focus on Cleave, you have to design your build around dropping enemies as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Step one, of course, is to take that second Fighter level and the bonus feat that comes with it. Step two is to take a class built around slaughtering things thoroughly in melee. Barbarian is an excellent choice. If you want to step up your game, consider taking the Spirit Lion Totem variant of Barbarian from Complete Champion. This will give you Pounce at first level, which will allow you to make a full attack on your charge. With your strength, a full attack is very likely to drop a low-level enemy, which will trigger Cleave.

I would recommend avoiding heavy armor. The benefit just isn't worth the loss for you. Stay with medium armor. Once you can afford Mithral, you might go with Mithral full plate (which counts as medium because Mithral is awesome). I would also recommend you take the meanest-looking two-handed weapon you can find, for reasons to be explained shortly.

Let's look at your feat progression. First, you have to have Power Attack to take Cleave. You should make maximum Power Attack your default. That means you subtract the maximum you can safely subtract from your attack rolls, and add it to your damage. You should be wielding a two-handed weapon, which means you're actually adding double the amount. Note the qualifier: The maximum you can safely subtract from your attack. That means you don't want to cripple your attacks - you want to make sure they can still hit. But using Power Attack will boost the chances you can drop an enemy with your hits, which is the goal here.

Next, you'll get Cleave, which you know, and Great Cleave, which you also know.

Your ultimate object should be the Great Cleave Cycle: To deal so much damage per-hit that you can drop a target with every hit, getting you an extra hit against another target, who you drop, getting you another extra hit... And so on. It's a dream which becomes less effective at higher levels, but if that's your goal, keep your eyes on the prize.

[HALFORCSTEVE]

Thanks for all the help I don't feel so bad about trying to keep the build I was hoping for.

[GreenETC]

Considering you're large and have a Greatsword, I'd say you should pick up Combat Reflexes and then grab Power Attack and Cleave. This way, with the 10ft reach that you have as a large creature will cause enemies to provoke attacks of opportunity, which you then hit and hopefully kill, which then lets you Cleave into anyone else.

Also, heavy armor doesn't give you extra movement penalty, as medium armor already reduces your speed by 10ft for a 30ft speed. So going to heavy armor doesn't hurt you as much as you think. I'd still recommend staying in a Breastplate, though, with your 15 Dex.

[Gwendol]

You will want the feat knock-back in addition to those I already listed, and since you're an orc you could also pick up heedless charge to double charge damage. Once you have enough fighter levels (dungeoncrasher 6) I recommend going crusader.

[Vizzerdrix]

A side note:

Don't neglect your range attacks. Grab a few javelins or harpoons. Invest a feat or two (Powerful throw and brutal throw) and call it a day. Harpoonsa have the advantage of locking down a target but cost an exotic weapon feat.

[Epsilon Rose]

I'd actually like to second the Crusader suggestion, either instead of or in addition to barbarian. Despite the Crusader getting heavy armor, it's often suggested that you don't want to use it because you actually want to take the hits, so there shouldn't be any conflict on that part. More importantly, Crusader, or any ToB class, gives you access to stances and maneuvers that let you exert a level of battlefield control and do things other than hp damage. This would be realy useful in trying to pull off the traditional roll of the tank; i.e. keeping enemies from actually getting to your squishies.

The only problem is, I'm not sure how well ToB classes work with cleave.

[Red Fel]

I'd actually like to second the Crusader suggestion, either instead of or in addition to barbarian. Despite the Crusader getting heavy armor, it's often suggested that you don't want to use it because you actually want to take the hits, so there shouldn't be any conflict on that part. More importantly, Crusader, or any ToB class, gives you access to stances and maneuvers that let you exert a level of battlefield control and do things other than hp damage. This would be realy useful in trying to pull off the traditional roll of the tank; i.e. keeping enemies from actually getting to your squishies.

The only problem is, I'm not sure how well ToB classes work with cleave.

Potentially very well. Consider the text of cleave: "If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach."

You can do a lot of damage with the maneuvers and class features in ToB. Even before looking at maneuvers, the Crusader can get up to +6 on attack and damage rolls from Furious Counterstrike. Couple that with Power Attack and you tack a serious chunk of change onto your attacks. Now throw in maneuvers and it becomes a thing of bloody beauty.

Adding maneuvers is a good way to keep Cleave effective into later levels.

[HALFORCSTEVE]

I was initially thinking of getting to lvl 8 with all the prerequisite to get cleaving rampage that allows you to take the entire charge and keep moving and kill the entire length of your charge all with the +2 to all attacks. I like the crusader class suggestions and the headless charge would be very nasty with this build thanks for all the suggestions and help.

[Telonius]

The concept sounds pretty close to a Dervish (from Complete Warrior). You might have a look at the PrC and see if it interests you. It gives you bonuses for slashing weapons (such as a Greatsword) while in a "dervish dance," bonus to AC while in light or no armor, fast movement, and free Cleave (while in dervish dance).

[Garagos]

Here's a homebrew feat that my group uses for tank builds. We basically stole it from 4E fighters, but it is helpful for tank builds if your DM will allow it.

Combat Challenge

In combat, it is unwise for your foes to ignore your presence.

Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +1, Base Fortitude Save +2

Benefit: Every time you attack an enemy, whether the attack hits or misses, you can choose to mark the target. The mark lasts until the end of your next turn. While a target is marked, it takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls for any attack that doesn't include you as a target. A creature can be subject to only one mark at a time. A new mark supersedes a mark that was already in place. In addition, whenever a marked enemy that is adjacent to you takes a 5ft. step or makes an attack that doesn't include you as a target, you can make a melee attack of opportunity. You can only make one such attack of opportunity per round, regardless of how many attacks the enemy makes on another target or how many attacks of opportunity you can make in a round.

[Red Fel]

Here's a homebrew feat that my group uses for tank builds. We basically stole it from 4E fighters, but it is helpful for tank builds if your DM will allow it.

Combat Challenge

In combat, it is unwise for your foes to ignore your presence.

Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +1, Base Fortitude Save +2

Benefit: Every time you attack an enemy, whether the attack hits or misses, you can choose to mark the target. The mark lasts until the end of your next turn. While a target is marked, it takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls for any attack that doesn't include you as a target. A creature can be subject to only one mark at a time. A new mark supersedes a mark that was already in place. In addition, whenever a marked enemy that is adjacent to you takes a 5ft. step or makes an attack that doesn't include you as a target, you can make a melee attack of opportunity. You can only make one such attack of opportunity per round, regardless of how many attacks the enemy makes on another target or how many attacks of opportunity you can make in a round.

So, that's basically an attempt to combine Iron Guard's Glare stance, Thicket of Blades stance, and... if you don't attack me I get a free AoO... thing.

Or, you could simply dip one level of Crusader to get Iron Guard's Glare, then take Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades to get Thicket of Blades, and switch freely between them as a swift action. No homebrew required.

For the record, I think that Thicket of Blades might actually be really useful on this build; not only does it help with that "tank" image you were discussing earlier, but it basically gives you AoOs on anything that moves. And if one of those AoOs happens to drop an opponent, that triggers Cleave, and then fun times happen.

Remember, as a melee-damage build, you are at your best when you are attacking your enemies. Why wait until your turn to attack? Anything you can do that lets you trigger attacks on someone else's turn is a good thing.

Speaking of stances, you could also consider Punishing Stance, which you can get with either a Warblade Dip or Martial Study + Martial Stance feats. It gives you a -2 AC, but adds +1d6 damage to every single melee attack. That's every iterative attack you perform on your turn, every AoO, every Cleave... Everything gets a bonus +1d6. Since your goal is to dump damage out in buckets, that's not a bad thing to have.

[DruidAlanon]

just some brainstorming... ask your DM for a magical item that creates any kind of negative feelings to the enemies (with a moderate DC--> 40%-50% chance of failure) so 1/2 of enemy units will instantly chase you instead of other PCs since they'll instantly hate you. (furthermore, the item could cause rage to each NPC who can rage). Then, DC could increase by 1 each round for each successful attack/person (thus any kind of cleaving, reach, etc can be used).

Armor and life are easy to be built, and for energy resistance just buy another item and/or ask for it from your spellcasters.

[Daftendirekt]

I was initially thinking of getting to lvl 8 with all the prerequisite to get cleaving rampage that allows you to take the entire charge and keep moving and kill the entire length of your charge all with the +2 to all attacks. I like the crusader class suggestions and the headless charge would be very nasty with this build thanks for all the suggestions and help.

Having never heard of Cleaving Rampage, I googled it. The only result I got was for dandwiki.

So, I'm pretty sure that's not a real feat. Don't ever trust or use anything on dandwiki.

[HALFORCSTEVE]

cool good to know what do you suggest to pull something like this off or just using spring attack to move from group to group

[Xerlith]

How are your char's mental stats? We might be able to go some unusual route here...

Or just the usual Crusader dip for Iron Guard's Glare and/or Thicket of Blades, Glaive for reach, Lockdown feats, you're home. :smallbiggrin:

[Jergmo]

I'd like to recommend getting a hold of a falchion, rather than a greatsword. 2d4 rather than 2d6 when you have a +8 Str modifier isn't going to hurt you, but getting more critical hits is definitely going to help.

I'd also like to second dipping into Barbarian to get Rage and HP-tanking, so long as you keep up with other sources of AC. For example, even if it's cross-class, I would work my way up to 5 ranks in Tumble. This will give your character +3 Dodge AC when fighting defensively, rather than +2. Your AB will be high enough when in a rage thanks to your now +10 Str modifier that it will be negligible.

There is also the Reckless Rage feat, which gives you +6 Str, Con and -4 AC. At that point it's only a -1 to AC and your penalties for fighting defensively are lessening further.

Your AC will likely never reach the point that very big, very beefy opponents will miss you frequently. A shock trooper is going to get ripped apart by arrows, though. I think with what I've laid out, that won't be a problem.

All of this lays out to -1 AC and AB (with an already very high AB by comparison to average), but you gain +3 HP per level, +3 damage, (+4 with two-handed), and you have a chance to crit 5% more of the time (15% if you take improved critical) - and when it comes to the point where you're fighting very large and powerful opponents who have a decent chance to hit you, on average looking through various monsters - they don't actually have that great of an AC score. They have a high AB and damage.

It would be like using Power Attack with a lowered cost, all the time, without sacrificing your AC by using Shock Trooper (plus free hit points). Another important thing to consider is that your regular armor doesn't add to your touch AC without an enhancement. The +3 to dodge will apply to your Touch AC; the last thing you want is some mook of a low-level wizard hitting you with Ray of Enfeeblement and knocking out your impressive Strength score because you have a lower touch AC.

[Red Fel]

cool good to know what do you suggest to pull something like this off or just using spring attack to move from group to group

Well, start with some basics. I've stated a lot of this above, but let's revisit it in more orderly fashion.

1: You want to be attacking constantly. The more you attack, the more chance you have to kill things. The more you kill things, the more you trigger Cleave. And the more you trigger Cleave, the more chance you have to kill more things.

2: Start by getting Fighter 2, take your bonus feat. Now let's move on. Take Barbarian 1, get the Spirit Lion Totem ACF and exchange your Fast Movement for Pounce, which will let you full attack on a charge. Milk that.

3: You suggest Spring Attack? I say no. Spring Attack is fine if you stick with pure Fighter and gets feats aplenty, but you're not doing that - you have better things to do with your time. That means feats come at a premium, and Spring Attack requires two of them. Besides, with Pounce, you don't need to move before and after attacking - you can simply charge.

4: Now, consider the following two options. Thicket of Blades lets you use an AoO on anything that moves in your threatened area, which when combined with a reach weapon means you get to hit pretty much everything, whether it's your turn or not. Hitting things means dropping them, dropping them means Cleave. Alternatively, Punishing Stance adds 1d6 to every single attack you make. Every single one. More damage means dropping things, dropping them means Cleave. So pick one.

5: If you chose Thicket of Blades, it's time to take a Crusader dip. You can either take several levels of Crusader and get Thicket of Blades normally, or take one level of Crusader followed by the Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades) feat. Your call. If you chose Punishing Stance, it's time to take a Warblade dip.

6: Regardless of whether you go Crusader or Warblade, you're going to enjoy some juicy abilities, called Maneuvers. These charming little fellows will turn your damage-dealing ability up to 11. I strongly recommend reading Tome of Battle and the handbooks you can find (Google is your friend) on Crusaders or Warblades, depending on which road you travel.

With regard to feats, in addition to Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave, you want Combat Reflexes to increase your AoOs. You could also take Robilar's Gambit, which lets you make an AoO against enemies who attack you (although it gives them a bonus to do so).

Now, let's discuss your combat strategy.

1: Use a reach weapon. Many of your abilities are based on your reach. A longer reach weapon means more chances to hurt things. Consider Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain, which will let you trip, disarm, reach, and do damage.

2: Get into the thick of things. This means using your Pounce whenever possible to be where there are enemies to squish. Then you just freaking unload. If you decide you want a crit-fishing build, Warblade is your friend. Jack up your crit rate, use Tiger Claw maneuvers and stances like Blood in the Water, and just shred face.

3: Be tactical. Use stances which serve your function. If you're using crits to drop enemies, use Tiger Claw to increase your attack and damage rolls. For easy boosts to base damage, use Punishing Stance. To attack enemies even when it isn't your turn, use Thicket of Blades. But be smart. If you simply plan to hit things and hope they drop so you can use Cleave, you're going to become obsolete within five levels. Your party casters will drop things before you can get close, and you'll be little more than a mobile meatshield. You don't want that, do you?

Finally, read the handbooks. Read them. There are handbooks on Warblades (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176968), Crusaders (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181655) and Barbarians (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105525). Read them all. Do a Google search on how to use Cleave (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205930). Get out there and do the research - understand how to get what you want, and why you should want it.

If you truly want to optimize, one of the worst things you can do is look at things (like Spring Attack) and say, "Ooh, that looks nice." You need to understand what you want to do, how you can do it, and what you need to do to get there.