Any way to make Potions more useful/effective? [Archive]

Nettlekid

2013-10-31, 02:26 PM

I think Potions are pretty cool. Compared to waving a wand or reading out a scroll, drinking a potion to gain its effects seems just like a more stylish way of activating magic. Plus who doesn't like Snape and his dry disdain of "hocus-pocus" magic? The unfortunate thing is that potions in D&D are, almost necessarily, weak. 3rd level or lower spells, none of which can be personal? That's it! There seems to be no way to actually pump up a potion-user to have access to a reasonable array of abilities to keep up with high level games. No way to make a Potion of Mind Blank or Potion of Divine Power. Is there?

Things that aren't exactly potions but are still in that vein are acceptable. I think Frostburn has Skull Talismans which are not unlike what I'd like. Basically, anything that has more of a "witch" feel than a "sorcerer" feel.

Captnq

2013-10-31, 02:30 PM

Take the PrC Master Alchemist.
Problem: Solved.

Story

2013-10-31, 02:31 PM

Have you tried the PF Alchemist?

Emperor Tippy

2013-10-31, 02:39 PM

Look up the Master Alchemist. Can make 9th level potions.

Nettlekid

2013-10-31, 02:45 PM

Take the PrC Master Alchemist.
Problem: Solved.

Well. That is a very good thing indeed. I had not seen that. For some reason, I think of the Alchemist Savant as the only potiony class. That class is quite good, though a little bare-bones. The high level potions are good, even though the 1000 gp limit on daily potion-making means the faster brewing still won't let you make more than one high-ish level potion a day.

Now, if that's 10 levels, what class can you supplement it with to let you use the potions in better ways?

Have you tried the PF Alchemist?

I'd prefer not to use PF stuff.

FullStop

2013-10-31, 02:48 PM

Is there not a way to craft single-use wondrous items that bestow a spell's effect on you? I was under the impression that was a thing you could do.

Magesmiley

2013-10-31, 02:49 PM

Nettlekid

2013-10-31, 03:01 PM

Use potions whose bonuses stack together.

I think that a lot of people grossly underestimate the value if multiple lower-level spell effects that can stack their bonuses together.

This is, of course, assuming that you have enough time to chug all of these potions.

Do you have a good little cheat sheet of such potions/spells? Like, if I had a belt with many vials stuck to it, what would be in those vials for a good potion cocktail?

FullStop

2013-10-31, 03:06 PM

Do you have a good little cheat sheet of such potions/spells? Like, if I had a belt with many vials stuck to it, what would be in those vials for a good potion cocktail?

Off the top of my head, Blur, Expeditious Retreat, Mage Armor, and Heroism would probably all be handy.

Vedhin

2013-10-31, 03:21 PM

Do you have a good little cheat sheet of such potions/spells? Like, if I had a belt with many vials stuck to it, what would be in those vials for a good potion cocktail?

The Masterwork Potion Belt from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting is the belt for you. It allows drawing a potion as a free action.

Nettlekid

2013-10-31, 03:33 PM

The Masterwork Potion Belt from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting is the belt for you. It allows drawing a potion as a free action.

I meant what KINDS of potions would be kept in it. Like the aforementioned Blur, Expeditious Retreat, etc. But that's a good item to keep in mind anyway.

If I was to make a build with Master Alchemist, what class would be best to go into it with? Mainly, what spell list lends itself to potions well?

illyahr

2013-10-31, 03:53 PM

I'd prefer not to use PF stuff.

Why not? Pathfinder is pretty much D&D 3.75 edition. The things in it are easily fitted for 3.X campaign settings. Some of the stuff is even better, such as the Dodge feat allowing a constant +1 Dodge bonus to AC rather than only against a specified target.

dascarletm

2013-10-31, 04:03 PM

Is there a way to get metamagic on potions? If so, that could be cool

Nettlekid

2013-10-31, 04:05 PM

erikun

2013-10-31, 04:09 PM

Well. That is a very good thing indeed. I had not seen that. For some reason, I think of the Alchemist Savant as the only potiony class. That class is quite good, though a little bare-bones. The high level potions are good, even though the 1000 gp limit on daily potion-making means the faster brewing still won't let you make more than one high-ish level potion a day.

Now, if that's 10 levels, what class can you supplement it with to let you use the potions in better ways?
Cleric/Master Alchemist, especially now that Clerics have Craft (Alchemy) as a skill, are fun options. Potion of Righteous Might? Potion of Divine Power? Potion of Resurrection?

Other than that, if you're creating potions that deliver damaging effects, then I'm sure there's a potion-sling located in a book somewhere. Something like a Potion of Resilient Sphere would be nice to sling around.

Temotei

2013-10-31, 04:11 PM

Why not? Pathfinder is pretty much D&D 3.75 edition. The things in it are easily fitted for 3.X campaign settings. Some of the stuff is even better, such as the Dodge feat allowing a constant +1 Dodge bonus to AC rather than only against a specified target.

A lot of people dislike Pathfinder because it's fairly disappointing on many fronts. It doesn't fix a lot of broken stuff and doesn't make a lot of weak stuff much better. Some things are pretty cool in it, and some other things are trash. Basically like D&D 3.5, but claiming to be better when it's mostly just different.

Of course, the OP might have a different reason.

BOOM NINJA

Another thing to consider is the quick potion spell from Spell Compendium. Basically lets you cast quick potion and the desired spell to make a potion instantly. The potion only lasts for hours in a day, but that's usually enough with common buffs.

illyahr

2013-10-31, 04:36 PM

Another thing to consider is the quick potion spell from Spell Compendium. Basically lets you cast quick potion and the desired spell to make a potion instantly. The potion only lasts for hours in a day, but that's usually enough with common buffs.

That's a handy spell at first glance, but why not just cast the spell in question? Either way, you expend two prepared spells/spells per day for the effect of the potion, and if it only has a duration in hours, you wouldn't even be able to dump your remaining low-level spells before you rested and renewed your spells as the duration would end before you used them.

Temotei

2013-10-31, 04:43 PM

That's a handy spell at first glance, but why not just cast the spell in question? Either way, you expend two prepared spells/spells per day for the effect of the potion, and if it only has a duration in hours, you wouldn't even be able to dump your remaining low-level spells before you rested and renewed your spells as the duration would end before you used them.

Your buffs aren't limited by your actions as much when all of your party members can drink their own potions. The duration is no issue by the time you have enough spell slots to cast quick potion and the desired spells consistently.

The duration is 1 hour/level, so at 9th level and higher, you can rest after and still possibly get some benefit out of the potions you make.

Big Fau

2013-10-31, 07:50 PM

Cut the price by a factor of 50.

Rubik

2013-10-31, 08:19 PM

Find a spell-to-power erudite with the Soul Crystal power, from Magic of Incarnum. Soul Crystal is so much better than any number of potions that it's not even funny. Just pay for spellcasting services (power level x 10 x manifester level in gp) for Soul Crystal. The secondary power is basically free.

Soul crystals last 1 hour/lvl, work much like potions, activation-wise, except you don't actually have to drink them to activate them, they can be used more than once, and they have the same activation time as the power or spell stored therein a standard action activation time (which could be good OR bad, depending). They work for any level of power or spell, store up to twice the manifester's manifester level in power points (meaning that if you use a 20th level manifester, you can use an unaugmented 1st level power 40 times per day), they're ridiculously less expensive than an actual potion, they work at the erudite's manifester level, they can be for literally any power (or spell) the manifester knows (including personal and offensive ones), and literally anything with an Int score can use one (even if it couldn't normally utilize a potion). Oh, and they also don't cost XP to create unless the power stored in them has an XP cost. Store them in a timeless demiplane or coat them in quintessence to make them last forever. Alternately, use Extend Power or Extend Spell-Like Ability (Psionics) to make them last twice as long (or more, with multiple applications of the feats).

VERY nice power.

Emperor Tippy

2013-10-31, 09:27 PM

and they have the same activation time as the power or spell stored therein (which could be good OR bad, depending).
No, they don't.
Soul Crystal is a power, not a magic item, and thus doesn't fall under the RC rules for magic item activation times. Said power also says

Manifesting a power from the soul crystal is a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

Rubik

2013-10-31, 09:35 PM

No, they don't.
Soul Crystal is a power, not a magic item, and thus doesn't fall under the RC rules for magic item activation times. Said power also saysOkay, so I missed that part. Therefore, it's basically identical to a potion on that point.

See: Another way to manifest Genesis quickly and easily.

avr

2013-10-31, 09:40 PM

Magic of Eberron has a 1st level infusion named Pending Potion IIRC. You can delay the effect of a potion until you need it (swift action), which may save combat actions buffing up.

Emperor Tippy

2013-10-31, 09:42 PM

Okay, so I missed that part. Therefore, it's basically identical to a potion on that point.

See: Another way to manifest Genesis quickly and easily.

I prefer it to throw out a Chained Twined Ice Assassin. If I'm being fair minded then they are of my opponent, if not then they are of whatever type of Great Wyrm level monster is most suitable to the situation.

Yes, one can throw out 50 Great Wyrm Gold Dragons to fight their foes as a standard action. And you can even pick the spell list and feats for them as well (although they do all have to be the same).

lunar2

2013-10-31, 09:43 PM

can you combine effects on a single potion? for example, can you brew a potion of divine favor and sanctum divine power?

also, note, sanctum spell metamagic lets you get 4th level spells into a potion for 3rd level costs, although the minimum CL is still 7 or 8.

CRtwenty

2013-10-31, 09:45 PM

I prefer it to throw out a Chained Twined Ice Assassin. If I'm being fair minded then they are of my opponent, if not then they are of whatever type of Great Wyrm level monster is most suitable to the situation.

Yes, one can throw out 50 Great Wyrm Gold Dragons to fight their foes as a standard action. And you can even pick the spell list and feats for them as well (although they do all have to be the same).

Off topic, but how badly would the Tippyverse get messed up if the Ice Assassin spell didn't exist?

Rubik

2013-10-31, 09:48 PM

Off topic, but how badly would the Tippyverse get messed up if the Ice Assassin spell didn't exist?He could just use Simulacrum instead. Not as powerful, but still potentially really nasty.

There are other means of doing similar things as well, such as PAOing Mindraped commoners into dragons and getting them Fusion'd/Astral Seeded with Dominated dragons. It's slightly slower (sans flowing time demiplanes), but it does result in fairly ready minions.

Emperor Tippy

2013-10-31, 09:49 PM

Off topic, but how badly would the Tippyverse get messed up if the Ice Assassin spell didn't exist?

Not at all really, even if you hit Simulacrum as well.

Ice Assassin is necessary for some things (stealing divine ranks being the biggest such thing) but the vast majority of the time I mention it, it is to do something quicker/easier/faster/more simply than the other methods of doing the same thing.

---
Soul Crystal is also fun in epic to manifest epic powers with 100 day, 10 minute casting times in a standard action. It's basically a free 220 points of mitigation with no downsides at that point.

Rubik

2013-10-31, 09:54 PM

Soul Crystal is also fun in epic to manifest epic powers with 100 day, 10 minute casting times in a standard action. It's basically a free 220 points of mitigation with no downsides at that point.Epic spells are explicitly prohibited from being itemized, though. Do the crystals created through Soul Crystal count as items? If so, I don't think it's possible.

Also, can erudites learn powers and spells from soul crystals like they can from power stones? I'm fairly sure no, but I don't see why it would be particularly virulent to a game to allow it, though I can see a few possible Psychic Reformation shenanigans (albeit mild ones).

mabriss lethe

2013-10-31, 10:04 PM

I've used a house rule to very good effect in the games I run. Change drinking a potion to a swift action. (if changing the time for everyone is not to your liking, you could always create a feat that uses identical wording to that found in Master of Poisons, but applies to potions instead. )

The spells are still low level, but it gives you a reason to keep using them down the line and continue to pay for them.

Emperor Tippy

2013-10-31, 10:09 PM

Epic spells are explicitly prohibited from being itemized, though. Do the crystals created through Soul Crystal count as items? If so, I don't think it's possible.
No, they don't. Soul Crystal is a power with a non instantaneous duration. "Soul Crystal" is not listed as an item anywhere and the power makes no reference, at all, to any of the item use rules.

Also, can erudites learn powers and spells from soul crystals like they can from power stones? I'm fairly sure no, but I don't see why it would be particularly virulent to a game to allow it, though I can see a few possible Psychic Reformation shenanigans (albeit mild ones).
Again, no they can't. Erudite's can learn powers from Power Stones because the rules explicitly state that they can. If Soul Crystal referenced power stones you might be able to make an argument but as it is, no.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-10-31, 10:33 PM

Let's not forget potion capsules in either CAd or CS. Use the potion in the capsule as a swift action for a hand full of gold.

(pretty sure it was CAd.)

shaikujin

2013-11-01, 01:04 AM

lsfreak

2013-11-01, 01:13 AM

Let's not forget potion capsules in either CAd or CS. Use the potion in the capsule as a swift action for a hand full of gold.

(pretty sure it was CAd.)

I checked on that too (yea CAd), but unless I missed something, that's not actually RAW-legal. The capsules can only be used for alchemical items, not potions. Though I'd absolutely houserule them in if you're not just going to make pots a swift action from the start.

Nettlekid

2013-11-01, 08:56 AM

Permanent buffs via potions:

As already mentioned, the Master Alchemist PRC in Magic of Faerun Pg 34 can make potions up to level 9. Magic/Psionic transparency should be expand this to Psionic Powers as well

Potions can be made permanent here: Potion Miscibility http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20060401b (3.x re-hash of rules from 1.x and 2.x)

To guarantee results, use a variant of the save game crystal trick. The character will need to have a follower/minion/buddy/simulacra that can manifest Forced Dream via items or directly. Steps:

Instruct minion to do the following actions when I say "Eureka"

1 - Use a standard action to manifest Forced Dream (Magic of Eberron Pg 104)

2 - Once he exits the Time Hop that I will cast on him, see if I am showing him the thumbs up sign

3 - If not, use his swift action to revert the timestream

I will ready an action to manifest Time Hop on him once I see him manifest Forced Dream.

I say "Eureka", then once he has manifested, use Time Hop on him and send him 2 rounds into the future.

I mix 2 potions and drink (1 round). If I get a permanent effect, I show the thumbs up sign and wait for my minion to appear

If something bad happens, minion will reset the timeline

Repeat until I am successfully buffed with all beneficial spells permanently.

Now THAT is cheesy, but I like it. I could get behind this.

I've decided that probably the best class to round off the combo of Base Class 5/Master Alchemist 10 would be Spellguard of Silverymoon, because you can then put Personal spells into potions by making them Touch spells. Technically you can use Greater Anyspell to cast an Arcane spell, right, so you can qualify even with Cleric. But I might want to go Wizard with this anyway, mainly because of that Quick Potion spell. But yeah, being able to put some awesome ones like Divine Power or Righteous Might into a potion. Heck, with Spellguard, could you even make a potion (or maybe an oil, pretending for a moment that rules for making oil exist) of Antimagic Field? Stuff like that could be fun to use.

Emperor Tippy

2013-11-01, 09:02 AM

Permanent buffs via potions:

As already mentioned, the Master Alchemist PRC in Magic of Faerun Pg 34 can make potions up to level 9. Magic/Psionic transparency should be expand this to Psionic Powers as well
Transparency does not work that way (except for an Ardent with the magic mantle).

When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications.

Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.)

All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa.

The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura).

Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.

Those are the sum total of the actual effects of transparency.

Vedhin

2013-11-01, 09:42 AM

I've decided that probably the best class to round off the combo of Base Class 5/Master Alchemist 10 would be Spellguard of Silverymoon, because you can then put Personal spells into potions by making them Touch spells. Technically you can use Greater Anyspell to cast an Arcane spell, right, so you can qualify even with Cleric. But I might want to go Wizard with this anyway, mainly because of that Quick Potion spell. But yeah, being able to put some awesome ones like Divine Power or Righteous Might into a potion. Heck, with Spellguard, could you even make a potion (or maybe an oil, pretending for a moment that rules for making oil exist) of Antimagic Field? Stuff like that could be fun to use.

It requires some slight RAW-bending by the DM for Master Alchemist entry, but Artificer 5/Alchemist Savant 3/Master Alchemist 10/Alchemist Savant 2 is good for potions. (Master Alchemist requires arcane or divine spells, but Artificer only qualifies for vanilla spellcasting. Master Alchemist is thematic and accepts all forms of magic that existed at time of print, however, so most DMs will allow it.)

And a hypothetical epic build for kicks: Artificer 5/Alchemist Savant 4/Master Alchemist 10/Spellthief 1/Wizard 1/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Legacy Champion 5/Spellguard 4. Advance Spellwarp Sniper with Legacy Champion. Advance Wizard casting with Spellwarp Sniper. Spellthief can be any source of sneak attack.
Enjoy bottled Meteor Swarms and Transcend Mortalities. Use Alchemist Savant's 4th level ability to add Atramen Oil on anything with a Fort save, or just throw in Black Lotus poison for kicks.

Nettlekid

2013-11-01, 10:00 AM

It requires some slight RAW-bending by the DM for Master Alchemist entry, but Artificer 5/Alchemist Savant 3/Master Alchemist 10/Alchemist Savant 2 is good for potions. (Master Alchemist requires arcane or divine spells, but Artificer only qualifies for vanilla spellcasting. Master Alchemist is thematic and accepts all forms of magic that existed at time of print, however, so most DMs will allow it.)

And a hypothetical epic build for kicks: Artificer 5/Alchemist Savant 4/Master Alchemist 10/Spellthief 1/Wizard 1/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Legacy Champion 5/Spellguard 4. Advance Spellwarp Sniper with Legacy Champion. Advance Wizard casting with Spellwarp Sniper. Spellthief can be any source of sneak attack.
Enjoy bottled Meteor Swarms and Transcend Mortalities. Use Alchemist Savant's 4th level ability to add Atramen Oil on anything with a Fort save, or just throw in Black Lotus poison for kicks.

I was thinking about Artificer, and yeah, although it doesn't technically work, I expect most DMs would allow it. But I don't really see what great benefits Master Alchemist provides? The quick-potion making is the same as Master Alchemist, and still not amazing even if the uses per day stack. The Spellvial thing is interesting enough, but its effects are more or less mimicked by a Spellguard of Silverymoon putting eligible spells into a potion, and since Spellvials aren't technically potions I don't think the Master Alchemist upgrade applies to it, which means you're stuck with low level Spellvials. Same specific trumps the other specific trumping general with regard to the Universal Potion. :/

That Epic build is quite cool, though like...way high level. But mentioning Transcend Mortality is pretty...awesome. Amazing assassination strategy, to slip a potion of it into a drink. They feel great for about two minutes, and then totally die.

Vedhin

2013-11-01, 10:18 AM

But I don't really see what great benefits Alchemist Savant provides? The quick-potion making is the same as Master Alchemist, and still not amazing even if the uses per day stack. The Spellvial thing is interesting enough, but its effects are more or less mimicked by a Spellguard of Silverymoon putting eligible spells into a potion, and since Spellvials aren't technically potions I don't think the Master Alchemist upgrade applies to it, which means you're stuck with low level Spellvials. Same specific trumps the other specific trumping general with regard to the Universal Potion. :/

That Epic build is quite cool, though like...way high level. But mentioning Transcend Mortality is pretty...awesome. Amazing assassination strategy, to slip a potion of it into a drink. They feel great for about two minutes, and then totally die.

Quoted from Alchemist Savant's Spellvial ability:

You create the spellvial just as you would any other potion; the spell stored within must be of 3rd level or lower and capable of targeting a creature other than the caster.

Note that it says just as any other potion. Therefore spellvials are potions, and are affected by Master Alchemist's abilities. Also, the second half of the quote is descriptive text reiterating the rules for potions.
Universal Potion is more confusing, as it gives specific prices.

Anyway, what Spellvials really do is allow you to throw the potion at someone to activate it, and make DMs not fuss about potions of harmful spells.

And the Transcend Mortality potion is funny. But a Transcend Mortality spellvial can be used in combat by chucking it at your enemy as a no save just die effect.
Enemy: "Hey, was that supposed to hurt? I feel invincible now!"
A couple minutes later: "Heywhat'shappeningtomenostop!" *explodes*
Artificer: "Yes, it was supposed to hurt. Exactly like that, in fact."

Nettlekid

2013-11-01, 11:16 AM

Quoted from Alchemist Savant's Spellvial ability:

Note that it says just as any other potion. Therefore spellvials are potions, and are affected by Master Alchemist's abilities. Also, the second half of the quote is descriptive text reiterating the rules for potions.
Universal Potion is more confusing, as it gives specific prices.

Anyway, what Spellvials really do is allow you to throw the potion at someone to activate it, and make DMs not fuss about potions of harmful spells.

And the Transcend Mortality potion is funny. But a Transcend Mortality spellvial can be used in combat by chucking it at your enemy as a no save just die effect.
Enemy: "Hey, was that supposed to hurt? I feel invincible now!"
A couple minutes later: "Heywhat'shappeningtomenostop!" *explodes*
Artificer: "Yes, it was supposed to hurt. Exactly like that, in fact."

Ah, good catch. Yeah, "created just like any other potion" would bring it back to the general potion-making rule, which Master Alchemist trumps. That's pretty cool.