3.5 representation of how exams work [imo]

[gooddragon1]

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[Scumbaggery]

Where does Autohypnosis fit into this? :smallwink:

[Red Fel]

I would argue that the exam itself is a Knowledge check, or series of Knowledge checks (or a Bluff check, depending on the subject), with modifiers for how you studied.

I could see the start of yours, each successful studying session (modified Knowledge or Profession: Student check) adding a bonus to the checks on the exam proper. For example, each successful and productive day of studying adds a +1 to the exam check. Other things modify the exam too. Have a good breakfast? +1. Well-rested? +1. Neighbors typing noisily? -1. Traffic outside? -1. Bar exam? -10.

Depending on the exam, it might be a Trained-Only Knowledge check. It may also be the sort of check which, due to the importance and stress of the exam, one cannot Take 10.

[gooddragon1]

Where does Autohypnosis fit into this? :smallwink:

That would probably cut down on the time but not eliminate it since you need to mine the information from the data and make it usable to you otherwise it'd be like bringing the book into the exam. Really useful but not always a slam dunk.


I would argue that the exam itself is a Knowledge check, or series of Knowledge checks (or a Bluff check, depending on the subject), with modifiers for how you studied.

I could see the start of yours, each successful studying session (modified Knowledge or Profession: Student check) adding a bonus to the checks on the exam proper. For example, each successful and productive day of studying adds a +1 to the exam check. Other things modify the exam too. Have a good breakfast? +1. Well-rested? +1. Neighbors typing noisily? -1. Traffic outside? -1. Bar exam? -10.

Depending on the exam, it might be a Trained-Only Knowledge check. It may also be the sort of check which, due to the importance and stress of the exam, one cannot Take 10.

I do admit to liking this better than my format. But an addendum
Senioritis -9001.

[ddude987]

How I always imagined exams:

Studying grants you a +2 circumstance bonus on the exam per hour of study up to a maximum of +4. You may also gain a +2 circumstance bonus from having a crib sheet. Each question on the exam requires a knowledge check. You cannot take 10 (or 20, even though taking 20 is arguably not possible even without a specific callout) on this check under any circumstance. This overrides any ability, effect, etc... that allows you to take 10 (or 20) on knowledge checks. You cannot substitute this check with another skill check via ability or effect (just covering the basis, don't need a jumplomancer knowledge edition here). The DC's of a tests questions follow a bell curve with DC10 being two standard deviations away from the mean DC to the left, DC12 being the mean, and DC12 being two standard deviations away from the mean to the right.

Grading the test is as normal tests, and the above model assumes no partial credit questions. Thus concludes my interpretation of how tests work with DnD mechanics. Wow tests are really complicated... maybe this should be simplified :smalltongue:

[gooddragon1]

...don't need a jumplomancer knowledge edition here...

But his test results would be through the roof!

[Bruenin]

I think unless the exam is multiple choice you have to take 10. It's a bit silly to assume the knowledge will just pop into your head, so for every question you take 10 + whatever modifiers (time studying, reviews, int modifier) and for the difficulty of the question you have a static DC. An easy question would be DC 10, something everyone should know, DC 15 should be for standard test questions because you'd had have time to study. DC 20 for honors level tests or harder short response. DC 25-30 for essays, depending on how hard it's rated.

[Devronq]

But his test results would be through the roof!

Omg bravo bravo best joke of the day by far haha

[Psyren]

An exam would likely be a complex Knowledge check. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/complexSkillChecks.htm) Just like a real exam, complex checks allow you a certain number of "misses" without having an outright failure.

The test-taking Jumplomancer joke made me lol

[Phelix-Mu]

I don't know about you, but there are definitely some people that would be prohibited from taking 10 in an exam atmosphere. Test anxiety never affected me, but I had a couple friends who would get it real bad, and despite being smart, the stress would occasionally negatively impact their grades.

This is one of the main reasons why I think exams are stupid. High-risk learning is something we should have outgrown as a society long ago. It only sometimes works to threaten people with failure to make them learn, and more often then not, it backfires in spectacular fashion, resulting in someone that hates school and all that it represents. If I can't be bothered to take the time and really figure out if someone learned something, then how can I expect the person to seriously take the time to learn it?

But, to the point at hand, I really think that exams vary significantly in format. Normal Int checks should work for some subjects (like which Knowledge check is maths? I always figured that for a straight-up Int check, except those are so much harder to do well than skill checks...yay realism in simulation!).

Same thing for checks to remember something that happened...what kind of check is that? Some facts and book-learning clearly are Knowledge, but there are all kinds of other things which aren't (like what was your mother wearing last year on your birthday). I'm not 100% clear that those are always Int checks, either. Usually I let players make Int checks or Wis checks for their characters to remember important, but obscure, bits of stuff that happened, usually to avoid the "your smart/clever character is no better at remembering than you are irl" phenomena, which occasionally gets in the way of my convoluted plots.

[Red Fel]

The problem is the meaning of taking 10. As I understand it, taking 10 means you take your time, do something carefully, such that you are guaranteed to succeed if success is possible. Taking 10 on a search means conducting a thorough examination that will turn up anything if there is something to be turned up; taking 10 on a crafting check means taking your time to produce high quality.

You can't guarantee success on a test unless you know the answers. This isn't a case of "If I wait long enough, the answer will come to me," because that's not usually how it works. You either know the answer, or knew it at some point, or you don't.

Try taking 10 on a cure for cancer. I'll wait. It doesn't work that way.

I would therefore argue that you can't take 10 on an exam, unless it's a test of skill (e.g. disassembling and reassembling a computer, performing a series of martial arts maneuvers, etc.) as opposed to knowledge.

[TuggyNE]

The problem is the meaning of taking 10. As I understand it, taking 10 means you take your time, do something carefully, such that you are guaranteed to succeed if success is possible. Taking 10 on a search means conducting a thorough examination that will turn up anything if there is something to be turned up; taking 10 on a crafting check means taking your time to produce high quality.

You can't guarantee success on a test unless you know the answers. This isn't a case of "If I wait long enough, the answer will come to me," because that's not usually how it works. You either know the answer, or knew it at some point, or you don't.

Try taking 10 on a cure for cancer. I'll wait. It doesn't work that way.

I would therefore argue that you can't take 10 on an exam, unless it's a test of skill (e.g. disassembling and reassembling a computer, performing a series of martial arts maneuvers, etc.) as opposed to knowledge.

No, all that you've described is taking 20, which is wholly different; taking 20 means taking up to 20 times as long to try the same thing again and again until it works. Needless to say, that's impractical on an exam, since you a) probably don't have that much time and b) have no way to be sure you got the right answer on any given attempt.

Taking 10 means focusing for just a bit longer and calmly turning out a reliable but mediocre result; it only works for things that are well within your grasp. Taking 10 can easily fail even for something you could theoretically accomplish.

Personally, I can usually take 10 on most of the answers in an exam, because unless I get sloppy and panicky, I can reliably ensure the right answer. (And test anxiety isn't usually severe enough to count as "threatened or distracted". :smalltongue:) Some things, though, I have to roll for.

[Red Fel]

No, all that you've described is taking 20, which is wholly different; taking 20 means taking up to 20 times as long to try the same thing again and again until it works. Needless to say, that's impractical on an exam, since you a) probably don't have that much time and b) have no way to be sure you got the right answer on any given attempt.

Taking 10 means focusing for just a bit longer and calmly turning out a reliable but mediocre result; it only works for things that are well within your grasp. Taking 10 can easily fail even for something you could theoretically accomplish.

Personally, I can usually take 10 on most of the answers in an exam, because unless I get sloppy and panicky, I can reliably ensure the right answer. (And test anxiety isn't usually severe enough to count as "threatened or distracted". :smalltongue:) Some things, though, I have to roll for.

Fair point. I did conflate taking 10 and taking 20.

Even so, you still can't take 10 on something that is simply beyond your knowledge or abilities. You can't focus for just a bit longer and spontaneously produce an answer with which you are unfamiliar. I might concede that you can take 10 on a check to remember information you studied, but an untrained knowledge check is right out. (Unless you can substitute a Bluff check.)

Even if you could take 10 on an exam, you would probably get an average answer. And depending on the format of the test, that's probably a failing grade.

[ben-zayb]

Aren't multiple choice questions simply 1d4 rolls?

I don't know about you, but there are definitely some people that would be prohibited from taking 10 in an exam atmosphere. Test anxiety never affected me, but I had a couple friends who would get it real bad, and despite being smart, the stress would occasionally negatively impact their grades

...

Same thing for checks to remember something that happened...what kind of check is that? Some facts and book-learning clearly are Knowledge, but there are all kinds of other things which aren't (like what was your mother wearing last year on your birthday). I'm not 100% clear that those are always Int checks, either.
In the first scenario, maybe have a Will Save to avoid fear (shaken, panic, etc.), with an increasing DC depending on previous exam question's difficulty (Knowledge Checks).

In the second scenario, I guess an Autohypnosis check would be better suited. With what I learned from an introductory Psychology class, while proper memory storage (Int check?) is important (which is why cramming is oftentimes a bad way to memorize), it isn't the sole factor in having a good functional memory. Memory retrieval is also an important factor, which may either be a part of the Knowledge check or be a separate Autohypnosis check.

You can't guarantee success on a test unless you know the answers. This isn't a case of "If I wait long enough, the answer will come to me," because that's not usually how it works. You either know the answer, or knew it at some point, or you don't.

Try taking 10 on a cure for cancer. I'll wait. It doesn't work that way.

I would therefore argue that you can't take 10 on an exam, unless it's a test of skill (e.g. disassembling and reassembling a computer, performing a series of martial arts maneuvers, etc.) as opposed to knowledge.
That's not entirely accurate. I can't speak for every discipline, but physics and engineering exams are usually a matter of properly managing your time, not getting nervous, and finding out the proper approach to a given problem. Contrary to some exams that only rely on rote memorization at worst and analysis at best, there are others that require synthesis as well. And this stuff can be easily made, given enough time.