A non-leveling campaign

[Iceheart2112]

What are the thoughts on a pathfinder campaign where the players don't level up? Say start them at level 6 or 10 and they stay there for the duration of the story. They have access to the retraining rules and such but other than that it's what they are forever. Is this an idea worth pursuing?

[illyahr]

I can't speak for others, but I wouldn't play it. Leveling up is a mechanical way of saying you improved. I wouldn't want to play a game where I was incapable of improving.

[dascarletm]

Depends on the length, I'd do a 1-2 shot. Maybe 3-4 sessions, but after that I'd see the character getting stale.

[awa]

similar idea for me in a short focused game it would be fine in a longer one id get kinda bored. 3-4 session is typical how often my players level any way so for me i think i could do could have maybe twice that many and still be good if the game was sufficiently focused.

That said small improvements like getting a new feat or even just skill points could drag that out longer.

[eggynack]

I can't speak for others, but I wouldn't play it. Leveling up is a mechanical way of saying you improved. I wouldn't want to play a game where I was incapable of improving.
Just because leveling is the main way of improving, that doesn't mean that the elimination of leveling represents the end of all improvement. You can still find cool items, or gain social status, or learn a magical life lesson.

[Knaight]

I'm not necessarily against the idea - however, D&D really doesn't seem like the ideal system for this. If you use E6 or something I could see it working, but as is mechanical advancement is built into the core assumptions of the game in a very big way.

[visigani]

Why not, instead of level up, you do chaacter buy.

You earn experience points each game session that can be spent on feats, specific aspects of progression, and so forth.

Spellcasting could be based on spellcraft.

Let's say your goal was that an average character could level up over five encounters.

Each encounter would propvide 1k exp, and you'd price character features and the like based on the assumption it would take 5k for a standard character to get all of their attributes.

You might wind up with characters with caster level 4, casting third level spells, with 2d4 hp and REALLY crappy base saves.

[Red Fel]

Non-leveling works fine, as others have said, for a one- or two-shot campaign. A brief interlude with a single story where the characters aren't expected to develop or grow substantially.

It also works fine in certain settings, such as Call of Cthulhu, where the game is less about facing powerful opponents and more about using your skills and tools wisely. In such games, you don't have to develop as a powerful character, you just need to play smart.

In D&D, that bird will not fly. I could list the reasons, but the bottom line is that D&D, as a combat-oriented system, requires a character to be strong enough to beat his opponent. No leveling means you can basically face one caliber of opponent for your entire career. Stronger opponents will be incredibly hard, weaker ones unworthy of your attention.

One option is to use the E6 method, and simply keep levels limited to the first six, with feats following. This allows you to keep the power level consistent, but the six levels of range still allow PCs to feel superhuman, and the feat selection continuing beyond that further allows some growth.

[gorfnab]

So pretty much E6 then?

[Daftendirekt]

So pretty much E6 then?

This. A low level cap but still improvement through more feats.

[Berenger]

I need to achieve some sort of tangible improvement and customization as a reward. This does not have to come in the form of XP and levels. It can come in equipment, but then there is the risk of the christmas tree effect. It can come in projects with milestones, for example building, defending and managing a castle or raising an army and conquering a kingdom. But this mustn't be mere fluff, the efforts must be visible and must matter. So, I would want an actual sheet for my castle, ship, army etc. or an Risk-style campaign map with statistics and nice numbers to improve.

[Kevka Palazzo]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is E6? I was intrigued by the idea and so far it's been mentioned 3 times now.

[Callin]

There ya go (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?206323-E6-The-Game-Inside-D-amp-D)

[Lanaya]

Decent idea for a short campaign, as others have mentioned, but over the course of a long campaign it would just get boring. Everyone's stuck with the same tricks for the entire campaign, you run out of new and interesting things to do, as well as a lot of the excitement that comes when you gain new abilities.

[Knaight]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is E6? I was intrigued by the idea and so far it's been mentioned 3 times now.

If you don't want to read the links the short version is:
1) It's a game that caps at level 6 (you could start it there).
2) At level 6, every 5000 experience gets you a feat.
3) There are a few new feats that let you get past level 6 abilities, but they are few and far between - for instance, you might maybe be able to get 1 fourth level spell.

[CockroachTeaParty]

If you're playing Pathfinder, you could stay at a static level, but still climb the Mythic Tiers...

[Evandar]

Weirdly enough, the best campaign I've ever run had the players at level one for a brief moment of time, they advanced to two and I cut them off there. They loved it, but the story was inspired (editor's note: add some modesty to this before posting) and the fact everyone was like one crit away from dying made every combat tense. The players were scrambling around trying to seize every possible bit of battlefield advantage and running like hell the moment someone with fullplate showed up.

Then again, a lot of that drama would fall off at level 6, so I don't know.

[Epsilon Rose]

I'm not sure how interesting that sounds, particularly in D&D. It would be fine in a game without explicit, discrete, levels, like G.U.R.P.S. or Fate, but a large portion of D&D is built around leveling and combat. It might work for an e6 campaign or a game that only happens very infrequently, and is basically just a series of connected oneshots, but in most games you'd be cutting out most of what D&D has going for it.

[The Insanity]

Play all commoners while you're at it. With no equipment.

[Psyren]

E6 + Mythic sounds very interesting to me. Especially mythic versions of low-level spells. Mythic Grease gets pretty funny. Mythic Magic Missile = ILMS.

[Karoht]

E6 + Mythic sounds awesome!

If one really doesn't want people to level up very often, 10-15 on the slow chart takes quite a while. Maybe use the slow chart and only give half XP for encounters, but reward better somewhere else. There will be improvement, it will just be at a very slow pace.

If EXP doesn't work, then Gold effectively becomes the new XP total. Sometimes that works, as the itemization mini-game can be fun too, but it will feel REALLY static all the same.