Pathfinder: Creating a Badass

[tzar1990]

So, GitP, I need your help:

The party is currently as follows, at level 8:

Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, Druid, and Alchemist, with a ranger, barbarian and summoner (utility-focused; uses his eidolon for scouting and normal summons for combat) who occasionally show up - I play the Fighter. For most of the game, I've been fairly useful - I have a TWF build, which has served to provide decent damage (I inherited the character from another player). However, the Druid recently found out about the magic of Wild Shape, and has taken to pounce-charging anyone who gets into melee with us. Meanwhile, the other casters have discovered the utility of save-or-die/suck spells, as well as battlefield-control abilities.

To put it simply, I'm obsolete. With the druid's naturally high strength mod (he build with 17 strength at level 1), the strength bonus from wild-shape, and Bull's Strength or whatever the spell is, he gets as many attacks as I do, with a higher chance to hit, and more damage on a hit. Plus, he has all the bonuses of being a full-caster with actual class features. The only thing I have that he lacks is high AC and more HP, but that doesn't really matter, cause enemies can just go around and ignore me.

Please, suggest a way I can make a useful character to this party. The DM has the following limitations.

Classes can only be Core or APG
Feats must be Core-only, unless they're only affecting class abilities from the APG
Archetypes should be avoided, as they're "cheesy"
Races must be core-only, with no alternate racial features


I'm thinking of making a social character, because the party otherwise lacks that. I'd also like to be combat-useful, though. While I'd prefer to be a martial character, I recognize that that's probably impossible, given the sheer amount of bull**** in this party. I don't want to overshadow the rest of the party, break the game, or out-do them at their own gimmicks. I just want to feel like I contribute, instead of being the tag-along sidekick.

What do you recommend?

[AttilaTheGeek]

I'd suggest an arcane/melee hybrid, because they have a distinctive playstyle and role not filled by any other class. My recommendation would be Sorcerer 6 / Paladin 2, and from there you can go into Eldritch Knight. At 8th level, your BAB is only 1 behind 3/4 progression, but you get full from here on out. You can also pump Charisma through the roof, because you get it to spellcasting, social rolls, and all saves. In combat, you're wearing heavy armor with the Arcane Armor Training and Arcane Armor Mastery feats, and you can work effectively in or out of melee, switching between the two with a move action.

If you want something more combat-oriented or don't want to play a Paladin, you can go with a Magus 8. A magus can dish out some seriously ridiculous damage, akin to a "no-save-just-suck" against AC. It's not mechanically relevant, but I want to point out that the Bladebound magus archetype is super cool. In combat, a Magus is up there in melee, shooting off Intensified Shocking Grasps for an extra 8d6 on every attack. And that's low optimization. You might like the magus because it's melee at heart, but it is tier three.

[grarrrg]

Please, suggest a way I can make a useful character to this party. The DM has the following limitations.

Classes can only be Core or APG
Feats must be Core-only, unless they're only affecting class abilities from the APG
Archetypes should be avoided, as they're "cheesy"
Races must be core-only, with no alternate racial features


I'm thinking of making a social character, because the party otherwise lacks that. I'd also like to be combat-useful, though.

Uh...there are SUCH things I want to suggest, but the restrictions KILL them hard.

Go with Bard.
That's about all I can suggest that would be Social, and still help out decently.
You'll have up to 6th level spells, and can give the whole party buffs with Performance (including yourself).

I so _badly_ want to suggest an Inquisitor instead, but all the good stuff in Ultimate Magic and whatnot...


Could also go into Dragon Disciple by way of Paladin/Sorcerer...not much "social" there though.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Could also go into Dragon Disciple by way of Paladin/Sorcerer...not much "social" there though.

An Eldritch Knight will be a marginally more capable melee combatant, because the DD's strength bonuses outweigh its 3/4 BAB, but the EK has a couple combat feats as well. An important difference is that the Dragon Disciple requires only 1st-level spontaneous arcane casting, but you have to have 5 ranks in Knowledge:Arcana, so you can't enter before fifth. The more open restriction means you can mess around with your paladin/sorcerer level distribution before entering. Here's a quick summary of the builds that have been suggested:

Bard 8. BAB 6, and 3rd-level spells, but you're still not a real caster. A couple utilities as well.

Sorcerer 1 / Paladin 4 / Dragon Disciple 3: BAB 6, cast as Sorcerer 3 (so only 1st-level spells) and Paladin 1. Paladin side gives you smite, Charisma to saves, Lay on Hands, and Channel Energy. DD gives a daily breath weapon. You'll have 3/4 casting from here on out, and you learn your first 2nd-level spell next level.

Sorcerer 2 / Paladin 3 / Dragon Disciple 3: BAB 6, know one 2nd-level spell, and you have smite, Lay on Hands, and a breath weapon. From here on out, you'll have roughly 3/4 casting.

Sorcerer 6 / Paladin 2: BAB 5, but it's the only one of these gishes that gets 3rd-level Sorcerer casting. From here on out, you'll go into Eldritch Knight, which gets full BAB and full casting at every level except first.

Note that you might want to transition into Eldritch Knight after your fourth level of Dragon Disciple. DD 4 gives a level of casting, +2 strength, and a +1 natural armor bonus, but DD 5 gives no casting, a feat from a very small list, and blindsense.

[Gnaeus]

Can't do Magus, it is from UM, not core+APG.



I'm thinking of making a social character, because the party otherwise lacks that. I'd also like to be combat-useful, though. While I'd prefer to be a martial character, I recognize that that's probably impossible, given the sheer amount of bull**** in this party. I don't want to overshadow the rest of the party, break the game, or out-do them at their own gimmicks. I just want to feel like I contribute, instead of being the tag-along sidekick.

What do you recommend?

Not martial at all, but my suggestion? Witch.

Take Cackle, Evil Eye, and Misfortune. They are throwing around save or lose effects. So build a character designed to make the enemies fail their saves! They will love you. You won't out-do them at their gimmicks, you won't break the game, and you will certainly contribute.

With Int as a prime stat, with a wizard and alchemist in group probably covering all the knowledges, you will have plenty of skill points, so just keep Spellcraft, Stealth and Perception maxed and you should have plenty left to max Diplomacy, Bluff & Sense Motive. Your charisma may not be stellar, but your scores should be good enough, and by the time you are done with spells, you should be able to party face easily. Pick a patron to cover whatever ground the Wizard, Cleric, Druid and Alchemist aren't doing. With those 3 hexes covering a majority of your combat actions, pick whatever spells seem like fun.

[Psyren]

You're in no danger of overshadowing anyone as a fighter - certainly not a Beast Within Druid, and especially using a TWF fighter. TWF is a massive trap unless you have bonus damage of some kind.

You unfortunately have a pretty huge party and plenty of melee already with the Druid, Barbarian and Summoner. (Is the Ranger melee too?) You also have plenty of casting with the Cleric, Wizard and Alchemist. Your best bet is a switch-hitter of some kind - a gish or other 5th wheel that can cast when that is needed more and melee when that is needed more. Without Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic, your options in that regard will be sharply limited.

Having said all that, I think your best bet is a Sorcerer or Bard going into Dragon Disciple - this will let you still be melee but also cast some nice buffs and control spells. Your second option is Inquisitor.

[Person_Man]

Given your party's current makeup, your very limited sources, and the fact that the Druid is taking care of meatshield duties, I would probably go with Oracle, Sorcerer, or Witch. Since there are so many different spell options, it's very easy to make your caster different from the other casters in the party.

[Psyren]

Ooh good idea, a Battle/Bones/Life Oracle would also be very useful here.

[Amphetryon]

Halfling Witch focusing on Hexes and the 'Lucky Halfling' trope looks like a decent fit.

Alternately - and this depends a lot on how the adventures typically progress - your party might enjoy having a Halfling Rogue, as there's no apparent dedicated scout/trapmonkey.

Both options have plenty of room to be the Face, if desired, although some argue that's off-focus for a Witch.

[Aasimar]

I like the dervish dancer archetype of bard. Has some magic and also ability to fight

[Psyren]

I like the dervish dancer archetype of bard. Has some magic and also ability to fight

That's in Ultimate Combat unfortunately

[skyth]

And it's an archetype.

[Spore]

My recommendations are:

Blaster Sorcerer: Crossblooded Draconic/Primal sorcerer. Kill them bastards before they annoy you.

Con: Will suck after a certain level.

Oradin: Heal them (because Clerics lack slots to heal anyway) until they explode. Add in some buffs just for kicks.

Witch with Misfortune, Cackle, Evil Eye, Flight Hexes. As stated above.

That or simply bard.

[Aasimar]

Well, both of those objections are cases of the DM being wrong, in my humble opinion.

Some stuff is cheesy, but archetypes are not, by their very nature, cheese.

[Chained Birds]

Can an Oradin be made with these limitations?

[ArqArturo]

Nothing says badass like an Inquisitor/Ranger, in my opinion. Why? Because you can do this (http://youtu.be/4v0Afcsp3ZQ). Honestly, it makes for a good combination, or even full Inquisitor works the same, but Ranger let's you pick Favored Enemy (I usually go with Human, because of all races, Humans tend to be the biggest of heretics).

[grarrrg]

Can an Oradin be made with these limitations?

Yup.
That's one of the high points of the build, minimal books needed.
Paladin (and Shield Other) are Core, Oracle & Life Mystery are APG.

It won't be the most optimal of Oradins, no Fey Foundling, no Paladin Archetypes, less awesome Race choices (Human, Half-Elf, Gnome, Halfling all still solid options though), etc...

[Arbane]

Maybe a Summoner? They're not combat-monsters directly, but their Eidolons can be. (And they're charisma-casters, so you can do social stuff, too.)

[Blyte]

If you want to be a "badass"

Damage focused Sorcerer (Orc Bloodline) or Overrun Barbarian

are my suggestions.

If you want to be a stout semi-badass

Paladin is good.