Factotum's Cunning Brilliance - Maneuvers and other options

[bekeleven]

Cunning Brilliance could get you 11 Fighter Bonus feats, or all the martial manuevers of one kind of adeptI don't want to start an argument about spontaneous spellcasting, but here's my issue: Maneuvers fall under 2 headers in class descriptions: Maneuvers and Maneuvers readied.

Does that mean it would take 2 uses of cunning brilliance to be able to use them correctly?

Bonus question: What are other good class features to grab? (we're ignoring the spellcasting debate in this thread)

[Red Rubber Band]

I'm not all that familiar with ToB. But don't you have maneuvers and then you have to ready them?
So not so much it being two different headers or using two sets of Cunning Brilliance. Just grabbing them with Brilliance and then readying them?

[Harrow]

I think so. However, your biggest problem is that you ready maneuvers by exercising for 5 minutes.

[Red Rubber Band]

I think so. However, your biggest problem is that you ready maneuvers by exercising for 5 minutes.

Can just imagine a dude, nose stuck in his books all day.

"I have to exercise for 5 minutes to ready the maneuvers? Lol. Nope. Newp. Nooooooooo. Uh uh. F**k that. Lates."

[bekeleven]

The problem with replicating animal companion, despite it being rules-legal, is that you have to attract one - just like maneuvers, the initial conditions getting int the way.

However, my character has 5 levels in ranger, giving him an animal companion as a druid 2. If I'm not mistaken, I can cunning brilliance and beef up the animal companion to Druid 20 for a minute, giving it 12 bonus HD and all of the other goodies.

[Chronos]

Neither maneuvers nor the fighter's "Bonus Feats" ability work, since the maneuvers/feats are not listed in the text nor table of the class.

The best abilities, I think:
Barbarian: Greater Rage
Monk: Fast movement, SR 25
Ranger: Favored Enemy, Camouflage
Rogue: Sneak Attack, Crippling Strike, Skill Mastery
Ninja: Sudden Strike (only if you already have Sneak Attack), Improved Poison Use
Scout: Blindsense, Hide in Plain Sight
Hexblade: Mettle
Swashbuckler: Insightful Strike
Lurk: Initiative Boost (if you know beforehand that combat will start within a minute)
Savant: Skill Assistance
Archivist: Dark Knowledge
Marshal: Auras (all one ability, grants 7 minor and 4 major), grant move action
Dragon Shaman: Energy Immunity
Knight: Knight's Challenge
Crusader: Steely Resolve
Warblade: Battle clarity, battle ardor, battle cunning, battle skill, battle mastery
Shadowcaster: Sustaining Shadow (immune to nonmagical disease and poison)

Out of these, the best of the best are probably the Marshal's auras and the Knight's challenge, since both have a lot of options built into them, though most of the others are good if you know you're going into a situation that needs them.

[Emperor Tippy]

Neither maneuvers nor the fighter's "Bonus Feats" ability work, since the maneuvers/feats are not listed in the text nor table of the class.

Where do you get that idea?

"Bonus Feats" is one of the two things listed in the text of the Fighter entry under the Class Features header (the other being weapons proficiencies).

They are also listed on the table.

[Chronos]

Yes, "bonus feats" is listed, but "Power Attack", "Spring Attack", "Martial Study", etc. are not. So you could in principle get the "bonus feats" ability, but not any of the actual bonus feats themselves.

At least, that's how I interpret the limitation "must appear on the advancement table or in the text description for that class". Which I admit is a peculiar limitation-- Do you have some other interpretation for that?

[Emperor Tippy]

Where are you getting support for that idea?

I mean I can't even figure out where and how you are arriving at that position.


Cunning Brilliance (Ex):At 19th level, you become
the ultimate jack of all trades. Your sharp mind and keen sense of your surroundings allow you to duplicate almost any ability you witness. At the start of each day, choose three extraordinary class abilities. Each ability must be available to a standard character class at 15th level or lower, and must appear on the advancement table or in the text description for that class. By spending 4 inspiration points as a free action, you gain the benefits and drawbacks of one chosen ability for 1 minute. You use the ability as if your level in the relevant class equaled your factotum level. You can use each chosen class ability once per day.

For example, if you use a monk’s flurry of blows ability, you gain all the benefits and drawbacks described under Flurry of Blows (PH40). You do not gain the benefits of unarmed strike, because that is a separate ability in the monk’s class description.



All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Bonus Feats:At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats on Table 5–1: Feats (page 90). A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums. (See Chapter 5: Feats for descriptions of feats and their prerequisites.) These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels (see Table 3–2: Experience and Level-Dependent Benefits, page 22). A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.

That is all of the relevant rules text, so please explain to me how you arrived at your conclusion because I really don't see how to get from the above to your stated position. I mean I could be missing something but I just don't see it.

[JaronK]

The ability itself (in this case Bonus Feats) is what appears in the table and text for the Fighter, so it's legal. You cannot, however, take the Fighter's save bonus, because that's not in the table.

The fact that each feat isn't individually listed there isn't relevant, any more than the fact that each action you could do while raging isn't relevant. The ability is there, there's just not a complete list of everything you can do with it.

JaronK

[OracleofWuffing]

That is all of the relevant rules text, so please explain to me how you arrived at your conclusion because I really don't see how to get from the above to your stated position. I mean I could be missing something but I just don't see it.
From what I can (mis?)understand, it sounds like the hold up is that the fighter selects those feats upon gaining a level, where Cunning Brilliance doesn't let you gain the levels to select those feats. So, you'd get an ability that says you gained an extra feat of your choice at level 1, but you never actually selected that feat when you were at level 1, and since rules are silly you don't get to go back to level 1 to pick your feat. Heck, it beats the observation that Power Attack is on page 91 of the phb...

...But I have a hunch that sort of interpretation might have some humorous implications for a certain Shuffling.

[Chronos]

My interpretation is that what you want to actually gain is the feats themselves, not the feat slots. So, for instance, you might want to gain Power Attack, Shock Trooper, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, etc. But you can't gain those things, because Power Attack isn't in the fighter listing, and Shock Trooper isn't in the fighter listing, and so on.

Yes, I admit that this is an awkward interpretation, but I can't see any other interpretation that's any less awkward. The rules clearly state
Each ability must be available to a standard character class at 15th level or lower, and must appear on the advancement table or in the text description for that class.
That limitation means something-- What do you think it means?

Quoth JaronK:

You cannot, however, take the Fighter's save bonus, because that's not in the table.
Actually, base save bonus is in the table, so that can't be what the limitation is referring to. I agree that you can't grab the fighter's base save bonus, but that's because that's a feature, not an ability.

[Emperor Tippy]

My interpretation is that what you want to actually gain is the feats themselves, not the feat slots. So, for instance, you might want to gain Power Attack, Shock Trooper, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, etc. But you can't gain those things, because Power Attack isn't in the fighter listing, and Shock Trooper isn't in the fighter listing, and so on.
How do you arrive at that? Those things are all results of a Fighter class feature.


Yes, I admit that this is an awkward interpretation, but I can't see any other interpretation that's any less awkward. The rules clearly state
That limitation means something-- What do you think it means?

That you can't grab, say, Tongues of Sun and Moon from a Monk. You could however grab it's Fast Movement and have +60 ft. to your base movement speed.

A fighters bonus feats are collectively one ability of the class and it is an ability gained before level 15, thus it is a valid target for CB.

[theIrkin]

It seems to me that the crux of the argument hinges on the fact that the Bonus Feats class ability references a second table. So the question becomes: does the cross-reference count for the sake of the benefit of the ability. It would seem to me that the reference to the Feats Table, and by referencing that table, it is simply attempting to save space on the copy. So, a Factotum using Cunning Brilliance Fighter Bonus Feats references the Class Description, and then that contains all the information in the Feats Table.

I would argue, because the description also intends to include all the relevant information from the Feats Table, that the Factotum then chooses Bonus Feats as a 15th level fighter. They don't spell out all the possible Feats nor their descriptions just as a Summon spell doesn't list the full stat block of each creature that could be summoned.

Now, my vote cast on that issue, does the Factotum also gain access to Fighter Bonus Feats that were added in supplements and splat books? Does he gain access to ACF's? What is a standard class as referenced in the description of Cunning Brilliance? (is it any base class? only base classes from the PHB I? prestige classes from the DMG?)