Bardic Psychosis!!!! [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Malak'ai

2013-11-01, 06:46 AM

I don't think the gitp crowd is educated enough on bards to really speak with any kind of authority, but I figured I'd see if a few of you could must some valiant effort

Alright, I openly admit I'm not very well schooled in op-fu, and my experience of playing a Bard is very limited, but who the HELL do you think you are to make a blatant claim that I, or any other forum member is "not educated enough" to speak with confidence or offer well thought out, rules supported statements about this class?
Have you not read the numerous threads on Bard builds. Or the debate threads on why the Bard is a bloody good class?
If you haven't, I'd suggest taking some time and bloody well read them before you start throwing statements like that around.

You may well consider me to be one of the "more hot headed" members that LanSlyde mentioned, but in all reality, I'm not. Very rarely do I let myself be dragged into these sorts of comments, but I just had to say something this time.
In the last week to week and a half, I have personally seen at least 3 threads of yours where you blatantly call other "idiots", "morons" or other derogatory names, even claiming we're "following the herd" or sticking up for a "forum favorite" while agreeing to an argument made by another that completely counters your statements.

In the future, I suggest you pull your head out of what ever hole you have it firmly wedged in and keep these sorts of asinine attempts to provoke to yourself.

Fouredged Sword

2013-11-01, 07:54 AM

Ok, I am going to try to take this question and ignore the rest.

Bard is a great gestalt class because it fills multiple hats very easily. It thus, is best paired with a focused class that will benefit from the bard's ability to wear many hats. The bard class suggests a Int of Cha focus, so that is a good place to start.

Wizard and Sorcerer both act as more powerful casting classes that can befit from the bardic metamagic reduction using uses of bardic music. The casting class befits from the higher bab, better skills, and singing buffs the bard side can provide.

Warblade and Crusader take the other end of the spectrum. Their great melee ability is well paired to the self buffing a bard can provide.

If you want bard as the active side of the setup, consider an aura class, like marshal or dragon shaman. Warlock and Dragonfire Adept also work well.

Tylorious

2013-11-01, 08:01 AM

If I can remember correctly, there is a class that is kind of like a pirate, but he/she adds the CHA modifier to their attack rolls, which fits pretty well with the Bard.

Talya

2013-11-01, 08:36 AM

I don't think the gitp crowd is educated enough on bards to really speak with any kind of authority, but I figured I'd see if a few of you could must some valiant effort

This is one of the primary d20 optimization forums on the Internet. Not only that, the same people post here as post at places like Brilliant Gameologists, enworld, and used to post on the old Gleemax forums. A cursory google search (using site:giantitp.com) will show you dozens of optimization threads on bards. A well optimized bard without any PrC or multiclassing is the at or near the pinnacle of tier 3 balance, and it's fairly well documented here.

Races for bards depend what you're trying to do. My preferences below...
Humans: Bonus feat, skills. Silverbrow humans are even better if you plan to go DFI. (Likewise, the draconic variants of most races are usually better for a bard than the standard variants).
Gnome: Constitution bonus, illusion bonus.
Lesser Aasimar: +cha bonus, no level adjustment.
Elves: Star Elf gets a charisma bonus, but the con penalty hurts. Avoid standard elves.
Templates: Dragonborn are okay if your other racial features don't matter to you. Always consider the Spark: Magic Blooded template from dragon magazine if it's available.

Gestalt: Sooo many options. I'm partial to warblade or crusader. Paladin actually works amazingly well with theurgic feats (although not against the rules of gestalt by RAW, they do violate the spirit of it, so approach with caution.) Paladin/Sublime Chord/[insert casting prc here]//Bard 20 is very worth looking at, if you use feats like Devoted Performer, From Smite to Song, and Initiate of Milil.

Feats and variants: there are so many it'd take a handbook to explain them all (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284). (Seriously, all your answers are there.) I'm particularly partial to Bardic Knack (ACF), Savage Bard (class variant), Song of the Heart (Feat AND ACF), Melodic Casting (Feat), Snowflake Wardance (feat), and Dragonfire Inspiration (feat).

eggynack

2013-11-01, 09:22 AM

This is one of the primary d20 optimization forums on the Internet. Not only that, the same people post here as post at places like Brilliant Gameologists, enworld, and used to post on the old Gleemax forums. A cursory google search (using site:giantitp.com) will show you dozens of optimization threads on bards. A well optimized bard without any PrC or multiclassing is the at or near the pinnacle of tier 3 balance, and it's fairly well documented here.
It's actually worse than that, I think. Even if we were a bunch of bard-ignorant clods, that's no real reason to call us that, especially when seeking bardic information. I don't know why anyone would think that this entire forum lacks bardic authority, because this is, as you've mentioned, one of the main locales for 3.5 high op, but I don't know if that part matters all that much. Anyways, I can't see this ending too well, particularly after seeing what's come before.

Psyren

2013-11-01, 10:25 AM

There's no reason for us to be upset about his. Visigani appears to want a forum vacation, so I think we should oblige him once and for all.

Yes, I know I'm playing into his hands by responding, but hopefully this post convinces others not to take the bait.

Juntao112

2013-11-01, 10:57 AM

The bard operates in that gray zone where they are both a very powerful class... *and* are remarkably well balanced.... the Bard has the most versatility of all the "Aura" classes and is one of the few to get spellcasting.

Also, the Bard gets whip proficiency for free.

So, if we're honest with ourselves the Bard is just plain awesome.

Which begs three questions...

First, which race is best for bard...

Second... which class is best to gestalt with Bard.

Third... what feats and variants are must haves for Bards...

I don't think the gitp crowd is educated enough on bards to really speak with any kind of authority, but I figured I'd see if a few of you could must some valiant effort

Why don't you ask EN World? The posters there know how to make bards if this (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?327699-Shiver-Me-Timbers-It-s-Black-Jack-Wellesley!) nifty build is any indication.

Theoboldi

2013-11-01, 11:10 AM

Visigani, your threads always feel like some weird kind of patronising pop-quiz that you're trying to make us take. It's very clear that you don't actually care about the questions you are asking. If you really want to complain about us, just say what you think. I'm sure that would have the desired results much faster.

Zombulian

2013-11-01, 11:24 AM

Why don't you ask EN World? The posters there know how to make bards if this (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?327699-Shiver-Me-Timbers-It-s-Black-Jack-Wellesley!) nifty build is any indication.

Maaaybe because he was banned from there.

Samalpetey

2013-11-01, 11:40 AM

Maaaybe because he was banned from there.

Yeah, I doubt he's doing anything but trying to make people angry now. Going by this, at least (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?317146-To-all-the-people-offended-by-being-called-quot-Troglodytes-quot&p=5790627#post5790627)

Karoht

2013-11-01, 11:51 AM

I'm not really familiar with Gestalt stuff, but I'll add my comments anyway.

In Pathfinder, I'm currently playing a Bard7/Ninja3/Oracle1/Deep Sea Pirate1.
Bard takes the Soundstriker Archetype. I think you can stack another archetype in there, but that is your call.
Ninja you want a minimum of 2 levels to get the Ki pool (based on your Charisma no less), 3 gets you to 2D6 Sneak Attack. Remembering that in Pathfinder more things are vulnerable to crits and precision damage, 3.5 has less things vulnerable to them.
Oracle I took specifically to get the Winter Mystery so I could see through Sleetstorm and similar effects. The campaign is Reign of Winter, so nearly every caster has it.
Deep Sea Pirate was just for the extra 1D6 Sneak Attack dice.

The Ki pool is important to net you Bewildering Koan (a 1 turn lockdown, swift action, based on your bluff VS target's sense motive, extremely handy). Of course, you have to be a Gnome if you want this option. If you would rather not be a Gnome, replace Ninja with Rogue levels, with the Rake Archetypes. This gives you free intimidate with your Sneak Attack, very handy. Either option here is good, Ninja or Rogue.

As soon as you can afford it, get a Goz Mask. This allows you to see through Fog and Smoke and other such effects. Handy. Pair it with either Smoke Bombs (Ninja), a Wand of Fog Cloud, or an Eversmoking Bottle. This allows you an easy method to get attacks against (multiple) Flat Footed targets.

At Bard 6 you get Weird Words. 1D8 + Charisma, fort save for half, 6 bolts. You gain an extra bolt every level up to 10 bolts. This effectively acts as a force multiplier for your Charisma to inflict damage. It is also a wonderful way to get Sneak Attack Damage, on up to 6-10 different targets at once. And if you took the Rake Archetype, you can Intimdate a target for free (but since it is a free action, in theory you could do it to all of them, DM's interpretation).
So 6-10 bolts, each doing 1D8 + Charisma as a base, and then passing along 3D6 Sneak Attack damage (or more).
If you really want to cheese this up, I'm pretty sure that Dragonsfire Inspiration (3.5) works with Weird Words, but you can't run both performance types until you hit 4th level Bard casting for Virtuoso Performance.
Either way, if you want damage, here's some fun.
Oh, that 30ft range doesn't sound too fun. What can we do about that?
Ventriloquism. It specifically states that the sounds originate from the point you designate, so this adds easily another 25ft +5ft/2 Levels, and there are ways to improve on that even further. And with a pair of Sniper Goggles, you can Sneak Attack at any range you can see.
Take the Rogue Talent : Ninja Trick and select Pressure Points. Every time you do Sneak Attack damage to a target, deal 1 Strength or 1 Dex damage. Weird Words is going to get up to 10 bolts. Subsequently, you can use the Feat called Extra Talent to pick up Ninja Tricks, and therefore pick up Pressure Points. Have fun with that.

Lets talk skills for a moment.
If you want to be good at intimidation, but don't want to spend skill points on it, take the Taunt feat. Not only do you ignore size penalties, but you can use your Bluff instead of Intimidate. Quite handy.
Now, Knowledges. Totally worth it for a Bard to have 1 rank in every Knowledge. High int score? Not really necessary. Take the Masterpiece entitled Pagent of the Peacock. You can now use your Bluff skill in place of any int based check, the effect costs 1 round of bardic music and lasts for 10 minutes. So picture someone telling you how to make poison. And it sounds like total BS. But then somehow, it works. Fun times.
I'll leave the 'optimizing social skills for personal gain' stuff to someone else, I think we've heard most of it before.

Spells are where this gets funny.
Exquisite Accompanyment-3-You get an instrument that plays your Bardic Music for you. Handy for later. It also only costs 1 round to start the performance, and costs nothing after that.
Virtuoso Performance-4-Allows you to have 2 bardic music performances active at a time. Exquisite Accompanyment helps out quite a bit here.
Cast Virtuoso Performance, next round cast Exquisite Accompanyment (Weird Words). Start your Inspire Courage as a move action (by that point I think you can even do it as a swift). Next round, Exquisite Accompanyment does Weird Words again right? You can continue to buff with Inspire Courage (for some extra damage on Weird Words + helping your party) OR you can end your current performance as a free action and do your own Weird Words as a Standard Action for up to 20 bolts (1D8 + Cha + 3D6 Sneak, times 20 bolts = Dead Things) in one round. Or, EA does WW, you do Inspire Courage (with Dragonsfire Inspiration) for some added elemental damage on each Weird Words bolt.
Shadow Bard + Project Image. You're invisible, there are two decoys of you running around, you have smoke as cover (Goz Mask), the Shadow Bard and the Exquisite Accompanyment handle your performances while your standard action is to cast spells through your Project Image. You're safe, you're damaging things, you're supporting with spells, you and your friends are buffed. Trickery Devotion (3.5) makes this even sillier. And don't forget about the Meld with Stone + Project Image/Trickery Devotion trick.

Other Masterpieces of Note:
-Requium of the Fallen Priest-King. In a nutshell, everyone can take a non-magical standard action, for the cost of a Swift. This effect lasts on everyone for 10 minutes, or until used. It's expensive though. 5 rounds + 1 per person you want to buff.
-Symphony of the Elysian Heart. Freedom of Movement, but with the catch that you can do it as a move or swift (depending on your Bard level).
-House of Imaginary Walls. Every round you make effectively a Wall of Force. Handy, but it all ends the moment you stop performing. Still, useful.
-Depths of the Mountain. You essentially cast a weak form of the spell Earthquake. However, it isn't all that expensive, and you can keep going with it for quite a while. Long enough to decimate pretty much any structures (IE-A castle) you want. And remember, while Earthquake is going on, anything on the ground can't move or attack and has a pretty high DC concentration check to cast spells. Your Mileage May Vary.

Yeah, Bards are awesome and often under rated and under estimated. Kind of like the stereotype the Clerics/Oracles can only heal, Bards get the 'shut up and buff' stereotype.
The downside is, they don't start getting really really awesome until much later. But hey, they are Tier 3. Arguably a very strong Tier 3, often very close to Tier 2. For a class that many people think is useless, that is still pretty darned good.

Tylorious

2013-11-01, 12:05 PM

it was the swashbuckler i was thinking of who gets their CHA bonus added to their attack. But why am I posting here?

Talya

2013-11-01, 12:12 PM

it was the swashbuckler i was thinking of who gets their CHA bonus added to their attack. But why am I posting here?

INT. Swashbuckler gets INT to damage.

Bards can get CHA to attack with snowflake wardance.
Bardadins can get CHA to attack and damage with snowflake wardance and divine might.

Yeah, Bards are awesome and often under rated and under estimated. Kind of like the stereotype the Clerics/Oracles can only heal, Bards get the 'shut up and buff' stereotype.

That reminds me of a song I wrote about the Everquest Bard a long, long, long time ago. Fortunately it was popular enough I can still find it all over the Internet...

http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=59016

Norin

2013-11-01, 12:24 PM

OP made me snicker with amusement. What a cute way of getting attention. Good laughs had by all.

Tylorious

2013-11-01, 12:51 PM

INT. Swashbuckler gets INT to damage.

Bards can get CHA to attack with snowflake wardance.
Bardadins can get CHA to attack and damage with snowflake wardance and divine might.

haha, thank you friend. i feel like an ijit now

Fax Celestis

2013-11-01, 12:54 PM

...why do I keep reading visigani threads...

Svata

2013-11-01, 01:03 PM

Aaand reported.

eggynack

2013-11-01, 01:29 PM

...why do I keep reading visigani threads...
You are drawn to them endlessly, as a moth is drawn to the flaming. Your mind tells you to retreat, or to just stay away, but in the deepest corners of your heart, places that you didn't even know existed, you seek the horror. It is a fascination without end, lacking content or meaning, but the looming tide of obsession cares not for such trivium. The obsession cares only for devastation, and seeks it endlessly.

:smallbiggrin:

Coidzor

2013-11-01, 01:56 PM

I'm kind of disappointed. I was thinking he'd found a new dragon psychosis that'd been forgotten that makes dragons into bards.

Hm. Definitely seems like there should be something like that for either a Dragon Psychosis or a Sovereign Archetype. Maybe a feat chain.

INT. Swashbuckler gets INT to damage.

Bards can get CHA to attack with snowflake wardance.
Bardadins can get CHA to attack and damage with snowflake wardance and divine might.

Alternatively, slippers of battle dancing and ye olde sparring dummy of the master, IIRC

visigani

2013-11-01, 02:37 PM

Out of 19 replies... 3 seriously dealt with the original question. Roughly as much time was spent explaining that bards benefited from charisma, not so much intelligence.

And a few people pointed me to other people on other boards... I guess to show me how much they themselves knew. Or something.

My assertion about bards and these particular forums was based on the fact that people here rarely talk about bards. Because they don't.

Wizards, Clerics, Druids, Anything from Book of Nine Swords.... You know the drill. Those classes are discussed endlessly.

But if I wanted to really put together a solid healer... is this the first place I think about? Nah.

And that's the truth about the situation. Optimizing a wizard is easy. There's a gajillion ways and means to improve the wizard. I mean hell, he starts off as a guy with a stick in a dress with a cat. The only way to go from that point is up.

But how about optimizing that healer? Show me how it can be a truly viable character. But nobody really does that sort of thing all that often.

They pat themselves on the backs and tell themselves they're awesome optimizers (nevermind that optimization is essentially an illusion and at best a puzzle to be solved rather than a character to be played as most of them would entirely wreck the gaming scenario they're placed in or entirely destroyed when the DM just throws rocks at them).

Mleh. It feels like an over excited expenditure of baby oil to me.

Even in my OP I asked for best... which could've meant any number of things to any number of people.

Instead I'm lectured on how awesome this group is at optimization when the forum does not anywhere state that it is an optimization forum. You certainly can optimize. God knows every other word in this forum is "incantatrix". But it's not devoted to that.

Despite this... it became an "optimization" thing.

None of this applies to Karoht because he's just an awesome person and a genuinely good guy. All Glory to Karoht.

Talya and Four also put forth a good effort.

Mostly the rest of you told me how much of a terrible human being I was because I thought a forum that doesn't frequently talk about bards wouldn't be terribly up to date on bards.

Theoboldi

2013-11-01, 02:40 PM

Stux

2013-11-01, 02:51 PM

Mostly the rest of you told me how much of a terrible human being I was because I thought a forum that doesn't frequently talk about bards wouldn't be terribly up to date on bards.

You were clearly baiting the entire community with your original post though. Now you criticise that community for taking that bait. If you didn't have a proven track record of inflammatory posts maybe the tone would have been overlooked. There is certainly no moral high ground for you to claim here though. If you want people to respect your posts and position you have to begin by showing them some respect.

Malak'ai

2013-11-01, 02:54 PM

Visigani look at THIS (https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=good+bard+builds+site:www.giantitp.com&biw=1366&bih=639) link for Bard builds from these forums.
It took me all of 2 seconds to find them...

Now, I'm not going to say any more as I don't really want to get into an internet name calling competition :smallsmile:.

Talya

2013-11-01, 02:54 PM

@ Visigani - there's usually a bard thread kicking around here. It's my favorite class in the game, I would know, I'm always posting in them.

Honjuden

2013-11-01, 03:22 PM

When you post a question and then spit in the face of the community don't expect them to react to the question.

mabriss lethe

2013-11-01, 03:29 PM

Mleh. It feels like an over excited expenditure of baby oil to me.

For now, we'll assume you're the forum's resident expert on the many and sundry uses of baby oil. Unless someone else would like to throw in their hat for the title.

As for some of the rest:

-Optimizing a bard toward the role of a healer. It *can* be done, but here's the catch. Healing works better for bards as a "spare hat." Out of the box, they make a fairly competent "first responder" sort of healer. They've got the baked in tools to maneuver around the battlefield and assist injured comrades.

Simply put, they're better at other things, but can heal in a pinch. It's something they can do when there's no one else closer around to do it. Since it's most often going to be a secondary role for a bard, the best way to optimize is to avoid sinking too much into permanent resources (levels, feats, spell selection, etc.) Wands of CLW are going to be the bread and butter out-of-combat healing solution for a standard bard. They get so few spells known and per day that every spell choice has to be weighed carefully, and quite often there are better choices for them. Bardsaders will have access to Devoted Spirit for in-combat healing that works with their action economy. Silverbrow humans, if they have a free feat, might pick up Draconic aura for fast healing. It isn't a complete measure, but it's enough to help resources go a longer way.

Norin

2013-11-01, 03:33 PM

We have had alot about bards lately. Try to get your facts straight.

This thread is no place for a serious discussion about bard builds though. You made that clear in no uncertain terms.

Have fun with your thread though.:smallwink:

Talya

2013-11-01, 03:39 PM

-Optimizing a bard toward the role of a healer. It *can* be done, but here's the catch. Healing works better for bards anyone as a "spare hat."

Corrected for accuracy.

Anyone who's playing a character focused on healing is being less effective than they could be. Yes, emergency combat healing is a thing that is nice to have, if not a necessity. But it's something done in an emergency, not something you have someone dedicated to doing. D&D is not an MMO, it's not based on the idea of having a tank, a healer, and three damage dealers. Healing is not a character role. It's an add-on best filled by wands during downtime.

mabriss lethe

2013-11-01, 03:46 PM

Corrected for accuracy.

Anyone who's playing a character focused on healing is being less effective than they could be. Yes, emergency combat healing is a thing that is nice to have, if not a necessity. But it's something done in an emergency, not something you have someone dedicated to doing. D&D is not an MMO, it's not based on the idea of having a tank, a healer, and three damage dealers. Healing is not a character role. It's an add-on best filled by wands during downtime.

Since the veneer of bardiness is so thin in this thread, I thought it best to stay focused on that class. Even if most of the bard's healing toolbox is accessible by practically any other class in one form or another.

Forrestfire

2013-11-01, 03:51 PM

Out of 19 replies... 3 seriously dealt with the original question. Roughly as much time was spent explaining that bards benefited from charisma, not so much intelligence.

That's generally what happens when you open a thread with an insult to anyone who reads it.

And a few people pointed me to other people on other boards... I guess to show me how much they themselves knew. Or something.

The fact is that many of these boards share members between them, and that if a specific guide has been posted in one place, it generally is linked to out of convenience instead of being reposted on every single forum. The fact that it exists means that linking it is generally more time-efficient than re-explaining it in detail.

Because, well, the guide already explains it in detail.

My assertion about bards and these particular forums was based on the fact that people here rarely talk about bards. Because they don't.

As said above, there is generally at least one bard thread floating around in the first few pages of the 3.5 forum. Just because you haven't seen them does not mean they're there. You can also see by the link above that bard threads are actually fairly common.

Wizards, Clerics, Druids, Anything from Book of Nine Swords.... You know the drill. Those classes are discussed endlessly.

As are many other classes. Wizards, Clerics, and Druids are very popular classes, as are the ToB classes (albeit for generally different reasons). However, when it comes down to it, pretty much every class has been discussed at some point.

But if I wanted to really put together a solid healer... is this the first place I think about? Nah.

It is for me. Giantitp has a community with enough people well-versed in 3.5 that you can have pretty much any question about the game answered here.

Also, while the Healer is not a common class to be asked about, there are definitely threads you can find on it (https://www.google.com/search?q=healer+optimization+site%3Awww.giantitp.c om&oq=healer+optimization+site%3Awww.giantitp.com&aqs=chrome..69i57.9141j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8).

And that's the truth about the situation. Optimizing a wizard is easy. There's a gajillion ways and means to improve the wizard. I mean hell, he starts off as a guy with a stick in a dress with a cat. The only way to go from that point is up.

But how about optimizing that healer? Show me how it can be a truly viable character. But nobody really does that sort of thing all that often.

Healer isn't played often in many groups, but if you ask without opening with an insult, generally people will respond amicably in turn, with advice about the class. You may get a few people that say "play a cleric instead", but those can be dealt with by opening the post with "I want to play the Healer class, so this thread is about what I do with it, not with any substituted classes" or something similar.

They pat themselves on the backs and tell themselves they're awesome optimizers (nevermind that optimization is essentially an illusion and at best a puzzle to be solved rather than a character to be played as most of them would entirely wreck the gaming scenario they're placed in or entirely destroyed when the DM just throws rocks at them).

I don't see it. Optimization is generally either with the goal of showing a cool trick someone figured out, or helping someone hedge their bets for success in whatever game they're playing. Of course a DM can wreck any character, that's what a bad DM can do.

Also, I rarely see this patting on backs that you talk about unless the suggestions made to someone are shown to have worked.

Mleh. It feels like an over excited expenditure of baby oil to me.

I'm... not sure what this means...

Even in my OP I asked for best... which could've meant any number of things to any number of people.

Yes it could have, so you will get people giving you a good amount of options, or people responding with what they think the "best" is.

Instead I'm lectured on how awesome this group is at optimization when the forum does not anywhere state that it is an optimization forum. You certainly can optimize. God knows every other word in this forum is "incantatrix". But it's not devoted to that.

Yes, because you opened with a fairly blatant bait at getting that sort of response. I'd suggest opening threads without insults in the future if you want more serious answers :smallsmile:

Despite this... it became an "optimization" thing.

If you're asking for the "best" of something, you're going to get "optimization."

That is literally the definition of "optimal."

Mostly the rest of you told me how much of a terrible human being I was because I thought a forum that doesn't frequently talk about bards wouldn't be terribly up to date on bards.

I think it was more a combination of some opinions on you being soured by previous threads, you opening the thread with an insult to the audience, and the fact that you made such an insult in clear ignorance of the facts, having apparently done no research on whether or not the forum discussed bards beforehand.

I am personally not well-acquainted with the Bard class, but thankfully other posters have covered it fairly well.

In the case of the Healer, I look at it and see that it is a Wis- and Cha-based class, whose main job is something that is generally not effective. However, they do have some nice tricks, such as insta-resurrections at level four, and the ability to make your party effectively immune to status effects with some help from reaching and chain spells.

I'd suggest picking up some metamagic rods to use for those. A single level of Cleric (I know it's not Healer, but it's there for the abilities) will let you get you some turning to power Divine feats like DMM.

Another trick (depending on how your DM feels like looking at its validity) that you could do is to is to dip a single level of Domain Wizard and pick up Alternate Spell Source from Dragon #324. If I'm reading it right, this should let you prepare spells from your domain in the Healer's spell slots, which is especially useful because the Healer gets so many of them, comparable to a spontaneous caster.

EDIT: My apologies, that doesn't work. I was thinking of having a wizard/sorcerer/other arcane caster dip, then taking Alternate Spell Source and Arcane Disciple to pick a domain you want. The Magical Training feat will also work for this, as you only need to able to cast arcane spells to to pick up Alternate Spell Source.

If the DM allows it, pick up a blasting or utility domain with this so you can have something to do in combat other than healing. In addition, this lets you use any wands you find from the wizard list, which can be useful for picking up more utility spells.

The Unicorn Companion ability is fairly useful if you're fighting things that will be affected by the magic circle against evil, and once you hit level 12, having an Gynosphinx on call is really useful, since they have some amazing out-of-combat utility abilities, and their symbol spells can be useful in many situations.

Theoboldi

2013-11-01, 03:51 PM

Since the veneer of bardiness is so thin in this thread, I thought it best to stay focused on that class. Even if most of the bard's healing toolbox is accessible by practically any other class in one form or another.

Why should we focus on bards in this thread, though? That'll only cause Visigani to think that he was actually able to fool someone with his blatant lies about his own intentions.

mabriss lethe

2013-11-01, 03:57 PM

I'm going to make at least a token effort to answer a question, even if I suspect a person of asking more out of malice than a desire to learn.

EDIT: I'm trying to stay focused as much as possible on keeping things on the "official" reason for the thread in my own posts. Sure, I could wax eloquent and derisive. I could come up with all sorts of sly jabs. I'm going to curb that impulse at least a little, though. It makes it easier if I stay on the topic of bards.

Juntao112

2013-11-01, 03:59 PM

Out of 19 replies... 3 seriously dealt with the original question.
You're welcome!

Roughly as much time was spent explaining that bards benefited from charisma, not so much intelligence.

As well they should; Charisma is a very useful stat for bards. It makes people like them, and allows them to interact with others more successfully.

But how about optimizing that healer? Show me how it can be a truly viable character. But nobody really does that sort of thing all that often.
If you want a powerful Healer, I believe there is a handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=gnm8oish6m1nhge4ic6gqje436&topic=8757) for that.

Even in my OP I asked for best... which could've meant any number of things to any number of people.
GIGO

Instead I'm lectured on how awesome this group is at optimization when the forum does not anywhere state that it is an optimization forum.

The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
The named is the mother of myriad things

Thus, constantly free of desire
One observes its wonders
Constantly filled with desire
One observes its manifestations

These two emerge together but differ in name
The unity is said to be the mystery
Mystery of mysteries, the door to all wonders

You certainly can optimize. God knows every other word in this forum is "incantatrix". But it's not devoted to that.
Certainly, Incantatrix is incantatrix far incanatrix often.

Mostly the rest of you told me how much of a terrible human being I was because I thought a forum that doesn't frequently talk about bards wouldn't be terribly up to date on bards.
Shuzan held out his short staff and said, "If you call this a short staff, you oppose its reality. If you do not call it a short staff, you ignore the fact. Now what do you wish to call this?"

mabriss lethe

2013-11-01, 04:05 PM

Shuzan held out his short staff and said, "If you call this a short staff, you oppose its reality. If you do not call it a short staff, you ignore the fact. Now what do you wish to call this?"

I call it Mr. Pokey: The Dread Rod of Discipline. It is feared by all bards that don't learn to be properly optimized healers.

hagnat

2013-11-01, 04:10 PM

If I can remember correctly, there is a class that is kind of like a pirate, but he/she adds the CHA modifier to their attack rolls, which fits pretty well with the Bard.

it was the swashbuckler i was thinking of who gets their CHA bonus added to their attack. But why am I posting here?

INT. Swashbuckler gets INT to damage.

Bards can get CHA to attack with snowflake wardance.
Bardadins can get CHA to attack and damage with snowflake wardance and divine might.

can anyone link me for these classes ? all i could find was the pathfiner version which i found simple to use and balanced, and a 3.5 version that i found oddly complicated and prolly unbalanced
both of them mentioned nothing about switching CHA/INT for their STR attack bonus

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/swashbuckler
http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Swashbuckler_(3.5e_Class)

Elderand

2013-11-01, 04:13 PM

Swashbuckler is in complete warrior

Snowflake wardance is a feat from frostburn

and bardaddin is a colloquial term for bard/paladin

Honjuden

2013-11-01, 04:13 PM

The Swashbuckler class is out of Complete Warrior. They don't get INT to attack rolls, but they do get INT to damage rolls when attacking with a weapon that qualifies for Weapon Finesse. Off the top of my head, Factotum may get INT to attack for an Inspiration Point. I am not 100% on that though.

Edit: Ninja'd

nyjastul69

2013-11-01, 04:14 PM

What type of Bard are you looking to make? There are many different routes a Bard can take, battle bard, buffer bard, etc. I found the handbook linked to by Talya to very helpful when I built a bard for a player in my game. I think that the Subsonics feat is underappreciated in most builds that I've seen on these boards.

I'd also like to add that I was kinda offended by your OP. It's really not very accurate, or nice, to lump everyone on the boards into one group regarding bardic knowledge. These boards are very barducated.

Fax Celestis

2013-11-01, 04:17 PM

For now, we'll assume you're the forum's resident expert on the many and sundry uses of baby oil. Unless someone else would like to throw in their hat for the title.

Well, I did major in debauchery in college...

Urpriest

2013-11-01, 04:17 PM

can anyone link me for these classes ? all i could find was the pathfiner version which i found simple to use and balanced, and a 3.5 version that i found oddly complicated and prolly unbalanced
both of them mentioned nothing about switching CHA/INT for their STR attack bonus

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/swashbuckler
http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Swashbuckler_(3.5e_Class)

It's in Complete Warrior. We can't "link" it to you because 3.5 classes aren't generally published online, they were sold in books.

Vedhin

2013-11-01, 04:18 PM

It's really not very accurate, or nice, to lump everyone on the boards into one group regarding bardic knowledge.

Yeah, some of us prefer bardic knack. It's the ACF from the PHII, and it lets you fake ranks in skills. Combine it with the Jack of All Trades feat from CAdv to use trained skills untrained. Presto, instant improvisation for almost any task under the sun.

nyjastul69

2013-11-01, 04:24 PM

Yeah, some of us prefer bardic knack. It's the ACF from the PHII, and it lets you fake ranks in skills. Combine it with the Jack of All Trades feat from CAdv to use trained skills untrained. Presto, instant improvisation for almost any task under the sun.

Sorry, I should have used an emoticon. I was speaking to the boards knowledge of bards, not the bard class ability.

Edit: After rereading your post, it was made in jest, wasn't it?

Elderand

2013-11-01, 04:25 PM

Sorry, I should have used an emoticon. I was speaking to the boards knowledge of bards, not the bard class ability.

I'm pretty sure he was making a joke......which you might be making too

Oh lord, I'm trapped in a cycle of deadpanning, send help !

nyjastul69

2013-11-01, 04:27 PM

I'm pretty sure he was making a joke......which you might be making too

Oh lord, I'm trapped in a cycle of deadpanning, send help !

I was using a play on words, and Vedhin joked off that. I missed it at first. I edited my post in recognition of that. :smallbiggrin:

visigani

2013-11-01, 04:33 PM

Visigani. You don't want to talk about bards. Everyone here knows that. You don't want to play one in a game and need a build, you don't want to expand your knowledge.
You just want to insult people. That's what you spent your post doing. Not talking about building bards, but about how we are terrible people . Please stop trying to hide it.

So you're a mind reader now? I'm out to get the forums because I doubt their mastery of barditry?

I guess.

More to the point, when I was talking about putting together a solid healer... nobody seemed to catch on that I was actually talking about the class.

Healer. Which only underscores my point.

Wizards, Clerics, Druids, Anything from Book of Nine Swords.... You know the drill. Those classes are discussed endlessly.

But if I wanted to really put together a solid healer... is this the first place I think about? Nah.

And that's the truth about the situation. Optimizing a wizard is easy. There's a gajillion ways and means to improve the wizard. I mean hell, he starts off as a guy with a stick in a dress with a cat. The only way to go from that point is up.

But how about optimizing that healer? Show me how it can be a truly viable character. But nobody really does that sort of thing all that often.

I was talking about the class and how nobody ever really tries to optimize it.

And again, this underscores my point.

I very much wanted to learn about bards. I can even tell you the thought process that lead me to be *interested* in bards again.

I read about the harmonizing paladin feat in some book or another that allowed a paladin to use a smite evil attempt to instead inspire courage, this got me reading about bards, and I remembered words of creation being pretty awesome so I was thinking "Huh, I wonder what other neat tricks there might be for bards. Let's ask the Giant in the Playground Crew"... but then I remembered "They don't really talk about bards much" so I set my expectations low.

Because they were.

I wasn't spitting in anyone's faces or defacating in anyone's cheerios, despite what your telepathy was telling you.

Talya

2013-11-01, 04:34 PM

The only "solid use" for the actual Healer class is as an NPC.

It's truly terrible.

Juntao112

2013-11-01, 04:36 PM

More to the point, when I was talking about putting together a solid healer... nobody seemed to catch on that I was actually talking about the class.

Healer. Which only underscores my point.
A proper noun is a noun which names a specific person, place, or thing. Proper nouns are capitalized to distinguish them from common nounds.

I was talking about the class and how nobody ever really tries to optimize it.
In a thread about bards?

I read about the harmonizing paladin feat in some book or another that allowed a paladin to use a smite evil attempt to instead inspire courage, this got me reading about bards, and I remembered words of creation being pretty awesome so I was thinking "Huh, I wonder what other neat tricks there might be for bards. Let's ask the Giant in the Playground Crew"... but then I remembered "They don't really talk about bards much" so I set my expectations low.

Because they were.

I wasn't spitting in anyone's faces or defacating in anyone's cheerios, despite what your telepathy was telling you.

Shall I compare thee to a Summer's day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate:
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
And Summer's lease hath all too short a date:
Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines,
And oft' is his gold complexion dimm'd;
And every fair from fair sometime declines,
By chance or nature's changing course untrimm'd:
But thy eternal Summer shall not fade
Nor lose possession of that fair thou owest;
Nor shall Death brag thou wanderest in his shade,
When in eternal lines to time thou growest:

So long as men can breathe, or eyes can see,
So long lives this, and this gives life to thee.

Zombulian

2013-11-01, 04:36 PM

So you're a mind reader now? I'm out to get the forums because I doubt their mastery of barditry?

I guess.

More to the point, when I was talking about putting together a solid healer... nobody seemed to catch on that I was actually talking about the class.

Healer. Which only underscores my point.

I was talking about the class and how nobody ever really tries to optimize it.

And again, this underscores my point.

I very much wanted to learn about bards. I can even tell you the thought process that lead me to be *interested* in bards again.

I read about the harmonizing paladin feat in some book or another that allowed a paladin to use a smite evil attempt to instead inspire courage, this got me reading about bards, and I remembered words of creation being pretty awesome so I was thinking "Huh, I wonder what other neat tricks there might be for bards. Let's ask the Giant in the Playground Crew"... but then I remembered "They don't really talk about bards much" so I set my expectations low.

Because they were.

I wasn't spitting in anyone's faces or defacating in anyone's cheerios, despite what your telepathy was telling you.

Ignoring your assery, Healer is one of my favorite classes. Though most of the issues that the good forumites here brought up in relation to healers (in general) can be applied to the Healer class. I assume you've looked here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6849.20)?

Theoboldi

2013-11-01, 04:37 PM

So you're a mind reader now? I'm out to get the forums because I doubt their mastery of barditry?

I guess.

More to the point, when I was talking about putting together a solid healer... nobody seemed to catch on that I was actually talking about the class.

Healer. Which only underscores my point.

I was talking about the class and how nobody ever really tries to optimize it.

And again, this underscores my point.

I very much wanted to learn about bards. I can even tell you the thought process that lead me to be *interested* in bards again.

I read about the harmonizing paladin feat in some book or another that allowed a paladin to use a smite evil attempt to instead inspire courage, this got me reading about bards, and I remembered words of creation being pretty awesome so I was thinking "Huh, I wonder what other neat tricks there might be for bards. Let's ask the Giant in the Playground Crew"... but then I remembered "They don't really talk about bards much" so I set my expectations low.

Because they were.

I wasn't spitting in anyone's faces or defacating in anyone's cheerios, despite what your telepathy was telling you.

Oh, I'm not using telepathy. I'm just going from what previous encounters with you have told me and how much time you are spending insulting this forum and it's userbase as opposed to discussing the ideas brought forth on what kinds of cool things you can do with bards.

Say, I still don't get the difference between optimisation and those 'cool tricks' you have mentioned. I honestly don't understand it. Could you please explain just what it is that you want?

Elderand

2013-11-01, 04:39 PM

More to the point, when I was talking about putting together a solid healer... nobody seemed to catch on that I was actually talking about the class.

Healer. Which only underscores my point.

You mean asside from Forrestfire and Juntao who did just that ?

And if people didn't catch the fact that you were talking about the healer class it might, just might, be because you didn't express yourself clearly.

Hell if you truly didn't mean to offend anyone with your repeated insulting over several post in several different forum that's just more credence to the fact that you have a serious deficiency when it come to communicating clearly.

Whatever the case may be (Abbrasive personality, troll or comicly inept at communicating) it's up to you to fix it, not to us to make a special effort to deal with you.

Theoboldi

2013-11-01, 04:42 PM

Wait a second. I'm completly confused now. Does he want to talk about bards or healers (the class from the Miniatures Handbook)?

And what the hell is the difference between optimisation and those 'cool tricks' he wants to know about?

I'm confused. :smallfrown:

nyjastul69

2013-11-01, 04:43 PM

So you're a mind reader now? I'm out to get the forums because I doubt their mastery of barditry?

I guess.

More to the point, when I was talking about putting together a solid healer... nobody seemed to catch on that I was actually talking about the class.

Healer. Which only underscores my point.

I was talking about the class and how nobody ever really tries to optimize it.

And again, this underscores my point.

I very much wanted to learn about bards. I can even tell you the thought process that lead me to be *interested* in bards again.

I read about the harmonizing paladin feat in some book or another that allowed a paladin to use a smite evil attempt to instead inspire courage, this got me reading about bards, and I remembered words of creation being pretty awesome so I was thinking "Huh, I wonder what other neat tricks there might be for bards. Let's ask the Giant in the Playground Crew"... but then I remembered "They don't really talk about bards much" so I set my expectations low.

Because they were.

I wasn't spitting in anyone's faces or defacating in anyone's cheerios, despite what your telepathy was telling you.

Juntao112 understood you were talking about the Healer class. There is a link in the post indicating so. I assumed you speaking about the class, but wasn't 100% sure because it wasn't capitalized. You really could have been talking about a Bard taking a healing role, as opposed to the Healer class.

Edit: Can you explain the baby oil reference? I don't get it.

Elderand

2013-11-01, 04:43 PM

Forrestfire

2013-11-01, 04:45 PM

visigani

2013-11-01, 04:48 PM

The only "solid use" for the actual Healer class is as an NPC.

It's truly terrible.

And I'm now down with giving up like that. If the master optimizers on these boards are as masterful at optimizing as they all seem to think they are they could create a viable healer.

I'm not saying it'd be easy, and I'm not saying the Healer would be able to reach for the stratosphere...

but they could do something, couldn't they?

Juntao112

2013-11-01, 04:50 PM

And I'm now down with giving up like that. If the master optimizers on these boards are as masterful at optimizing as they all seem to think they are they could create a viable healer.

I'm not saying it'd be easy, and I'm not saying the Healer would be able to reach for the stratosphere...

but they could do something, couldn't they?

Its like watching a customer ignore the waitress, insult the staff, and then complain about the restaurant having poor customer service.

Zombulian

2013-11-01, 04:51 PM

And I'm now down with giving up like that. If the master optimizers on these boards are as masterful at optimizing as they all seem to think they are they could create a viable healer.

I'm not saying it'd be easy, and I'm not saying the Healer would be able to reach for the stratosphere...

but they could do something, couldn't they?

They can make decent Ubermount builds. The Unicorn is pretty dang strong, and I think they can get Coatls right? Those have some interesting abilities. Healers are generally better at healing than Clerics and Druids until about lvl 7, then at lvl 8 they get their Unicorn and you switch your focus.

nyjastul69

2013-11-01, 04:52 PM

And I'm now down with giving up like that. If the master optimizers on these boards are as masterful at optimizing as they all seem to think they are they could create a viable healer.

I'm not saying it'd be easy, and I'm not saying the Healer would be able to reach for the stratosphere...

but they could do something, couldn't they?

So you're not interested in info on Bards now? If you want to discuss optimizing a Healer I suggest opening up a new thread for that. It'll get confusing trying to optimize both classes in the same thread.

JaronK

2013-11-01, 04:52 PM

And I'm now down with giving up like that. If the master optimizers on these boards are as masterful at optimizing as they all seem to think they are they could create a viable healer.

It's easy to do, but most of us find your attitude so appalling that we don't really care to.

Easy hint: just add spells to the Healer's spell list. That's all it takes. If you have any skill at optimizing, that hint should be plenty.

JaronK

Urpriest

2013-11-01, 04:53 PM

And I'm now down with giving up like that. If the master optimizers on these boards are as masterful at optimizing as they all seem to think they are they could create a viable healer.

I'm not saying it'd be easy, and I'm not saying the Healer would be able to reach for the stratosphere...

but they could do something, couldn't they?

And people have. You've been around the forum enough that you've likely seen Akal Saris's work on it, for example.

Visigani, you aren't acting like someone who has been around the forum as long as you have. While accusing you of trolling would be a violation of forum rules, there is another possibility: is someone new using your account? Someone who doesn't have the history on the forums that the previous visigani did?

If so, that's why people are being more hostile to you for what appears to be no reason. People think you're an experienced poster on this forum. If you're actually a new-ish poster with an old name, then all this hostility has at its root a misunderstanding.

Theoboldi

2013-11-01, 04:53 PM

And I'm now down with giving up like that. If the master optimizers on these boards are as masterful at optimizing as they all seem to think they are they could create a viable healer.

I'm not saying it'd be easy, and I'm not saying the Healer would be able to reach for the stratosphere...

but they could do something, couldn't they?

But you already said that you don't want optimisation. Why did you change your mind?

visigani

2013-11-01, 04:53 PM

Oh, I'm not using telepathy. I'm just going from what previous encounters with you have told me and how much time you are spending insulting this forum and it's userbase as opposed to discussing the ideas brought forth on what kinds of cool things you can do with bards.

Say, I still don't get the difference between optimisation and those 'cool tricks' you have mentioned. I honestly don't understand it. Could you please explain just what it is that you want?

Where in my OP did I reference "cool tricks' or did you just make that up?

Or are you referencing the "neat tricks" thing I said which could be anything from the Savage Bard to the Divine Bard to the Bard with an Animal Companion... all of which I think are pretty neat tricks.

And none of which are especially "optimized".

But you just want to rage at me and I have better things to do, moving along.

Stux

2013-11-01, 04:55 PM

but they could do something, couldn't they?

You could make a viable Healer, but it would probably not rely on the fact it is a Healer to be viable. Which makes it not only sub-optimal, but also not very interesting.

The thing is most of the decent tricks you could get on a Healer will be things that don't specifically rely on the unique features of the Healer, things you could apply to many or all other classes. Its not that its not possible to optimise the Healer, its just that pretty much any concept you have for a direction for its optimisation there will be a different class that fits that optimisation much better.

Theoboldi

2013-11-01, 04:55 PM

Where in my OP did I reference "cool tricks' or did you just make that up?

Or are you referencing the "neat tricks" thing I said which could be anything from the Savage Bard to the Divine Bard to the Bard with an Animal Companion... all of which I think are pretty neat tricks.

And none of which are especially "optimized".

But you just want to rage at me and I have better things to do, moving along.

They aren't especially optimised, but it's still optimisation in its base form. And please don't accuse me of raging. I have been as polite as I possibly could, given your attitude.

Juntao112

2013-11-01, 04:55 PM

visigani

2013-11-01, 04:58 PM

But you already said that you don't want optimisation. Why did you change your mind?

I'm not changing my mind. If you'll recall the initial thread just wanted additional options and direction on what grooves well with bards and any hidden options that really shine.

For example, I am completely enthralled with the notion of playing a cloistered cleric of istus with the destiny, luck, and knowledge domains.... and lots of luck feats. Not because it's all kinds of optimized but because it fits the general theme.

It's neat.

And this is all the attention I'm giving to your baseless accusations and attacks.

Elderand

2013-11-01, 04:58 PM

You could make a viable Healer, but it would probably not rely on the fact it is a Healer to be viable. Which makes it not only sub-optimal, but also not very interesting.

The thing is most of the decent tricks you could get on a Healer will be things that don't specifically rely on the unique features of the Healer, things you could apply to many or all other classes. Its not that its not possible to optimise the Healer, its just that pretty much any concept you have for a direction for its optimisation there will be a different class that fits that optimisation much better.

Well I once optimised a healer for healing, granted that could also work for a cleric.

The build was something along the line of Healer 10/Combat medic 5/Healing hand of myshakal 5

Granted it require access to dragonlance material but if someone comes to the healer with the idea of being there to heal I think you could do worse.

That makes a relatively good "healer" thematicly whitout really needing ressources outside of what the healer class come prepackaged with.

Vedhin

2013-11-01, 05:03 PM

And I'm now down with giving up like that. If the master optimizers on these boards are as masterful at optimizing as they all seem to think they are they could create a viable healer.

I don't think the gitp crowd is educated enough on bards to really speak with any kind of authority, but I figured I'd see if a few of you could must some valiant effort

Excuse me Sir or Madam, but could you explain which of these represents your viewpoint? Do you think we are incompetent, or that we are not incompetent?

Anyway, optimizing a Healer is a hard task. For starters, pick up the Mastery of Day and Night feat from Player's Guide to Eberron to Maximize all your healing spells. Next we venture into "2nd party" material. Dragonlance: Legend of the Twins has the Dynamic Priest feat, allowing you to switch your casting over to Charisma for the most part. Dragonlance: Holy Orders of the Stars has the Healing Hand of Mishakal prestige class, which gives you Charisma to healing again, as well as Stilling and Empowering your healing spells. As the class forces you to be a pacifist, pick up the Vow of Nonviolence, and Possibly Vow of Peace feats from the Book of Exalted Deeds. Now look at the Sanctified spells in the same book, which any good-aligned prepared caster can cast. These add versatility to your Healer, including some save or suck spells that will have their DCs boosted by Vow of Nonviolence. Also try the Combat Medic prestige class from Heros of Battle, which has other healing related abilities.

Edit: It's not ninja'ing if I give more information.

mabriss lethe

2013-11-01, 05:04 PM

Hey, Those kinds of healers are great! First, what you need is an Artificer cohort. Then what you need is a Deepspawn. Feed a healer to said deepspawn. It will continue to birth clones of the original. Take those, extract their pain, sacrifice them and destroy their souls to generate huge pools of dark craft xp and gold. Take those resources and have your cohort craft all of the best items and equipment you could ask for.

Juntao112

2013-11-01, 05:05 PM

Excuse me Sir or Madam, but could you explain which of these represents your viewpoint? Do you think we are incompetent, or that we are not incompetent?

Clearly, we are incompetent at bards, and our lack of ability to optimize Healers is proof of this.

Theoboldi

2013-11-01, 05:07 PM

I'm not changing my mind. If you'll recall the initial thread just wanted additional options and direction on what grooves well with bards and any hidden options that really shine.

For example, I am completely enthralled with the notion of playing a cloistered cleric of istus with the destiny, luck, and knowledge domains.... and lots of luck feats. Not because it's all kinds of optimized but because it fits the general theme.

It's neat.

And this is all the attention I'm giving to your baseless accusations and attacks.

Excuse me, but 'hidden options that really shine' does sound a suspicous lot like you want things that are strong, i.e. optimisation. Perhaps if your instructions were more clear and made without so many insults, I wouldn't be accusing you of wanting to insult people.

Elderand

2013-11-01, 05:09 PM

mabriss lethe

2013-11-01, 05:19 PM

Joking asside this made me aware of the cheesy awesomeness of the deepspawn.

It's even more ridiculous when paired with an Illithid Savant.

That was the BBEG in a game I ran for a while. The IS consumed deepspawn produced clones of beings of various power ranges. The players were on a ticking clock, the longer they waited, the more powerful the BBEG became as he devoured clone after clone, gaining HP through multiple iterations of toughness, spell slots, power points, etc.

Honjuden

2013-11-01, 05:23 PM

I wasn't spitting in anyone's faces or defacating in anyone's cheerios, despite what your telepathy was telling you.
If you truly aren't trying to be malicious, which I doubt, then you have a level of passive abrasiveness nearly reaching that of Edwin from the Baldur's Gate series.

karkus

2013-11-01, 05:27 PM

I may be marked by the mods for this post, but at this point I really don't care.

Ironically, this was the only part of your post that was strictly against the rules. In fact, even the asterisks didn't break them. :smallwink:

Theoboldi

2013-11-01, 05:30 PM

If you truly aren't trying to be malicious, which I doubt, then you have a level of passive abrasiveness nearly reaching the level of Edwin from the Baldur's Gate series.

Not to mention that his inability to converse his intentions is truly shocking. I honestly have had an easier time communicating with genuinly mentally ill people. By now I'm starting to worry for him, somewhat.

Zombulian

2013-11-01, 05:32 PM

Not to mention that his inability to converse his intentions is truly shocking. I honestly have had an easier time communicating with genuinly mentally ill people. By now I'm starting to worry for him, somewhat.

Whoa wait. Wait. Is there a form of tourette's that expresses itself through text? Because honestly every part of the OP was reasonable and I was ready to help, and then he added the last paragraph for no reason.

Theoboldi

2013-11-01, 05:34 PM

Whoa wait. Wait. Is there a form of tourette's that expresses itself through text? Because honestly every part of the OP was reasonable and I was ready to help, and then he added the last paragraph for no reason.

Speaking as someone who has Tourette's himself, I don't think that this sort of behaviour is even close to being entailed in the symptoms caused by Tourette's. :smallwink:

Zombulian

2013-11-01, 05:38 PM

Speaking as someone who has Tourette's himself, I don't think that this sort of behaviour is even close to being entailed in the symptoms caused by Tourette's. :smallwink:

I'll be honest that I don't know much about the verbal type of tourette's that seems to be more popular joke-wise.
The way he just spouts random fire at people after a string of sound reasoning rings a tune akin to the infamous "tourette's guy" on youtube.

Juntao112

2013-11-01, 05:40 PM

I am given to understand that profanity is one of the wide variety of tics an individual with Tourette's may display.

Theoboldi

2013-11-01, 05:43 PM

I am given to understand that profanity is one of the wide variety of tics an individual with Tourette's may display.

Exactly. All of us show various forms of tics that we are compulsed to perform every now and then. Nothing about it influences the way we speak, except for perhaps occasionally yelling a word or scream which may or may not be profane. But some of us don't even have any verbal ticks at all.

And now you know. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pele5vptVgc)

Fax Celestis

2013-11-01, 05:50 PM

And now you know. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pele5vptVgc)

And knowing is half the battle!

(the other half is violence)

krai

2013-11-01, 05:52 PM

I know this forum has specific classes it likes, but I don't think bard has ever been neglected. I haven't seen more than a couple of days go by without someone asking about bards or coming up with a new idea for a build. Since Yesterday there are 3 threads that are explicitly about bards or bard related prestige classes. Bards are not a huge proportion of the threads but they are well represented on this board.

Last bard I played (in Pathfinder) I had fun with the spells Timely Inspiration and Gallant Inspiration. I managed to at one point change a miss to a hit against a fleeing enemy which managed to kill it, the DM got mad it was funny. If you play pathfinder there are a lot of fun Bard Archetypes, one I enjoyed can just start riots, during that campaign I was eventually told that I was no longer allowed to make "start a riot" my go to plan.

Zombulian

2013-11-01, 05:56 PM

Exactly. All of us show various forms of tics that we are compulsed to perform every now and then. Nothing about it influences the way we speak, except for perhaps occasionally yelling a word or scream which may or may not be profane. But some of us don't even have any verbal ticks at all.

And now you know. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pele5vptVgc)

Welp. My mistake.

Theoboldi

2013-11-01, 05:59 PM

Welp. My mistake.

No worries. At least that means some of us got a valuable lesson out of this thread.

mabriss lethe

2013-11-01, 06:00 PM

If you truly aren't trying to be malicious, which I doubt, then you have a level of passive abrasiveness nearly reaching the level of Edwin from the Baldur's Gate series.

Well, that abrasiveness would be one explanation for the intimate knowledge of baby oil the OP seems to possess and possibly his unwillingness to elaborate upon the subject once he broached it.

But we're possibly straying from the subject. Optimizing the healer...or was it the bard? ...or something else entirely? Heck why not soulknife while we're at it? I love optimizing soulknives and that's sort of on topic I suppose, since it isn't exactly a forum favorite of a class or some such nonsense.

If you're sneaky and tricksy you can, in fact, make a semi-playable soulknife. Let's be realistic, though. It'll never be good, because only on mythbusters can you polish a turd to a high shine.

Take your soulknife. Take Kalashtar as your race. Go ahead and pick up both ACFs from the Minds Eye web article.

One ACF provides you with Hidden talent in place of Wild talent. Take Psionic Minor Creation as your HT power. Fun fact: It interacts strangely with Kalashtar. 1) Kalashtar are called out as manifesting their pla like a wilder with a ML of 1/2 their character level. 2) HT will then key off of the Kalashtar's racial ML instead of having that phantom ML 1. 3) Any character (not class) than can manifest a power gains bonus PP based on their relevant ability score bonus and their manifester level. If that's not good enough, the rules mention wilder as an example next to the word "character." Guess who manifests powers as a wilder right now? You do buddy! That little wording mishap, along with the kalashtar's racial PP storage will give you a nice little nest egg for manifesting.

Your normal bonus feats as you level will go to Illithid Heritage feats. Specifically IH (1st), Illithid Legacy (6th level) and Greater Illithid Legacy (12th level), plus one more of choice taken at 3rd level to qualify for the latter two. Now you have a handful of psionic powers! But wait, you say. Your ML won't be high enough to qualify for Greater Legacy. You'd have to wait until 15th at the earliest. There's an app for that!

Pick up Kalashtar Mindlink from Eberron (Secrets of Sarlona, maybe?) as your 9th level feat. That will boost your manifester level on your pla to your full character level. Guess what else is keyed to your new ML? Everything! Fill in your 15th and 18th level bonus feats to order and you're set. I like to pick up Psycrystal affinity and whichever Expanded Knowledge power strikes my fancy. I like the Psion Power Share pain, personally. use it with your psycrystal if you like.

If I go the psycrystal route, I make sure it gets dragontouched as one of its feats once it's charisma can be improved and pick up 2X draconic aura and the dual aura feat.

But we still have more bonus feats to go! Remember that other ACF? It swaps out psychic strike for more bonus feats. Take them all. The only restriction on those feats is that your mindblade must benefit from them. Master of Poisons looks like a tasty level 3 choice (especially if you took minor creation at Level 1), and actually makes bladewind a ridiculously fun ability. You could pick up martial study/stance later on or grab some more standard fighter feats. As long as it benefits your mindblade, you can have it, Which also means you could pick up more esoteric feats as long as you can make it work within those restrictions.

But the mindblade is kinda garbage, you say? Well 2K gp can go a long way to fixing it. Buy yourself an Adamantine Mindblade Gauntlet. The adamantine property is nifty and of some use, but that's not why you bought it. You buy it because it fundamentally alters the way you select enhancements on your mindblade. Sure, you don't get any new enhancements, which is one of the major failings of the mindblade in general, but it fixes another major failing. With the AMG equipped, you can select your enhancements on the fly every time you summon your mindblade. The 8 hour wait disappears.

I have no idea if the Kalashtar mini-psion will work, but it was fun to create and could stand up to a cursory inspection of RAW.

Vedhin

2013-11-01, 06:11 PM

*Kalashtar Soulknife stuff*

As a fan of kalashtar, I strenuously object to your neglect of various racial-exclusive feats. These include: Kalashtar Thoughtshifter, Soulblade Warrior, Shield of Thought, and Spiritual Force.

Another awesome option for Kalashtar is Monk 2/Soulknife lots, taking Tashalatora and Flowing Blade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050110a) (scroll down). Possible Soulbow levels to taste.

mabriss lethe

2013-11-01, 06:18 PM

If I could fit it all in, I would. I just wanted to see how much extraneous stuff I could cram into a soulknife. Kalashtar was the best for the trick. Though the my favorite part is that a kalashtar could theoretically use all of this stuff to graft limited manifesting at full ML onto the framework of any class. (at the expense of virtually every bonus feat.)

Edit to add: I also wanted to do as much as I could with a Soulknife 20, because why not?

Elderand

2013-11-01, 06:23 PM

Vedhin

2013-11-01, 06:26 PM

Kalashtar was the best for the trick. Though the my favorite part is that a kalashtar could theoretically use all of this stuff to graft limited manifesting at full ML onto the framework of any class. (at the expense of virtually every bonus feat.)

I'll let you in on a dirty secret. Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge) works off of the highest level power you can manifest, not highest level power you know. This is important because the only limit on power level manifested is how many PP you can spend on it, which is based off of ML. Now use the rules for Manifesting an Unknown Power From Another's Powers Known (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnknownPowerFr omAnothersPowersKnown) to manifest a power of level (ML+1)/2. You have now proven what level of powers you can manifest, and can choose higher level powers with Expanded Knowledge. Use things like Overchannel for maximum cheese.
This can be done with any class/race. You need a Host feat from Complete Psionic for the ML and the Hidden Talent feat for obvious reasons.

Edit: Actually, between you and me, I think we just reduced Psion and Psychic Warrior to a bunch of glorified bonus feats. Does this mean they drop to Fighter tier?

mabriss lethe

2013-11-01, 06:33 PM

I chose Kalashtar for 2 reasons.

1. Specifically called out as manifesting like a wilder while host feats don't, which isn't a major thing, but it makes some things a bit clearer cut.
2. The character will always be a bit shortchanged on PP and the Kalashtar will help minimize that since they get 1 PP/level.

Oh, it will never replace a full manifesting class for stamina and versatility, but it's definitely up there in "That's a sweet little trick" territory.

Vedhin

2013-11-01, 06:38 PM

I chose Kalashtar for 2 reasons.

1. Specifically called out as manifesting like a wilder while host feats don't, which isn't a major thing, but it makes some things a clearer cut.
2. The character will always be a bit shortchanged on PP and the Kalashtar will help minimize that since they get 1 PP/level.

Yeah, kalashtar are better by far, but it's nice to know you can pull this trick with any class and race combination. Just think of all neat powers like Hustle and Psionic Lion's Charge.

mabriss lethe

2013-11-01, 06:42 PM

Once you get the ball rolling, you might not actually need to use Expanded Knowledge. I'd forgotten about this little gem. (only applicable in games that allow independent research of new or existing powers. )

Any kind of manifester can create a new power. The research involved requires access to a retreat conducive to uninterrupted meditation. Research involves an expenditure of 200 XP per week and takes one week per level of the power. At the end of that time, the character makes a Psicraft check (DC 10 + spell level). If that check succeeds, the character learns the new power if her research produced a viable power. If the check fails, the character must go through the research process again if she wants to keep trying.

Vedhin

2013-11-01, 06:44 PM

Elderand

2013-11-01, 06:46 PM

Awesome. Psions and Psychic Warriors have been reduced to feats and small amounts of XP.

Actually I believe there was an argument that using independent research didn't get you a new power for free but instead got you a power that occupied one of your "power known" slot.

mabriss lethe

2013-11-01, 06:49 PM

Elderand

2013-11-01, 06:53 PM

The wording directly above the paragraph also mentions duplicating existing powers as well as creating new ones, so that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Not that any of this is really all that sensible in the first place.

I'm not arguing it can't duplicate power. What I'm saying is that the power you reasearch count for your number of power known limit because it doesn't say that it doesn't count.

Compare to expanded knowledge or the erudite ability to learn through study, both of which specificly mention that they don't count against the limit.

Vedhin

2013-11-01, 06:57 PM

I'm not arguing it can't duplicate power. What I'm saying is that the power you reasearch count for your number of power known limit because it doesn't say that it doesn't count.

Compare to expanded knowledge or the erudite ability to learn through study, both of which specificly mention that they don't count against the limit.

Simple way around that. Don't take levels in a class with powers known. As you have no fixed number of powers known, you can use this trick to your heart's content/the point where your DM brains you with an encyclopedia.

mabriss lethe

2013-11-01, 07:00 PM

sorry, I should have been clearer.

Counter argument:

If it used up an existing powers known slot there would be little need to use those rules to duplicate a power, since it could be acquired through either regular character growth or through EK if it existed on another manifester's list without the expenditure of EXP.

I should add: I don't think either are terribly strong arguments for or against and that argument sounded stronger in my head until I remembered that we could be dealing with multiple power lists.

Edit to add: It's also listed as a separate text entry from the section "Powers Gained at a New Level" implying that researched powers do not occupy the same slots as powers gained at a new level.

Irk

2013-11-01, 07:03 PM

If you have a harmonizing weapon and take the feats arcane flourish, arcane accompaniment, and doomspeak, it gets crazy.

It gives an opponent -10 to saves, skill checks, ability checks, attacks with a DC equal to 10 + cha + you WHOLE class level.

The way it works, is you can apply this debuff for 2 + cha rounds. Last game I played I did this, and I had to remake my character because they synergized TOO well with the party. Furthermore, it is NOT mind affecting, and has a range of 120 ft.

So yeah, I think we've all thought about bards plenty.

Elderand

2013-11-01, 07:05 PM

sorry, I should have been clearer.

Counter argument:

If it used up an existing powers known slot there would be little need to use those rules to duplicate a power, since it could be acquired through either regular character growth or through EK if it existed on another manifester's list without the expenditure of EXP.

DnD rules aren't based on logic or need for something. The principle is that specific trumps general, the corrolary is that you always use general if nothing is explicitly telling you to do otherwise. The research rules do not specify that the power researched is outside the limit of power known, therefore it must be whithin those limits.

It doesn't have to be fair or make any amount of sense, it's just RAW.

mabriss lethe

2013-11-01, 07:08 PM

I put this in an edit above:

It's also listed as a separate text entry from the section "Powers Gained at a New Level" implying that researched powers do not occupy the same slots as powers gained at a new level.

At this point I'm mostly arguing for the sake of it.

I'm willing to concede the point. It's more than likely not going to fly, and after reflection, my argument is not as strong as originally thought.

mabriss lethe

2013-11-01, 07:16 PM

Simple way around that. Don't take levels in a class with powers known. As you have no fixed number of powers known, you can use this trick to your heart's content/the point where your DM brains you with an encyclopedia.

Though this work-around is technically legit, and works well with the Kalashtar build.

Elderand

2013-11-01, 07:19 PM

I put this in an edit above:

At this point I'm mostly arguing for the sake of it.

I'm willing to concede the point. It's more than likely not going to fly, and after reflection, my argument is not as strong as originally thought.

I can reverse your previous argument. If research doesn't obey the limit of power known then there is no need for expanded knowledge since everything it does can be replicated whitout spending a feat

Also the fact that is in a semi separate entry is not a strong argument. If it were, the fact that the rules for combat and the rules for character creations are in different chapter would mean no character is actually able to partake in combat.

If your DM rule your ways all the better. I just don't think it's what the rules say.

Elderand

2013-11-01, 07:20 PM

Though this work-around is technically legit, and works well with the Kalashtar build.

Well, it's technicly legit in the sense that you just described a non computing situation really. It's a grey area.

mabriss lethe

2013-11-01, 07:33 PM

TBPH, I'm just happy to have worked up the basic body of "mini-manifesting" The rest was all just see how far it could be taken.

Aside: I also hope that someone in particular took this exchange to heart, because it's a good example of how civil discourse on this forum should flow.

Vedhin

2013-11-01, 07:40 PM

TBPH, I'm just happy to have worked up the basic body of "mini-manifesting" The rest was all just see how far it could be taken.

Yes, this is quite an interesting topic. I might start a seperate thread for this, to see if the rest of the Playground can pick it apart, and what they think up to do with it if it works.

Talya

2013-11-01, 07:53 PM

And I'm now down with giving up like that. If the master optimizers on these boards are as masterful at optimizing as they all seem to think they are they could create a viable healer.

I'm not saying it'd be easy, and I'm not saying the Healer would be able to reach for the stratosphere...

but they could do something, couldn't they?

If you create modified super cars as a hobby, you certainly could go buy an old Lada or Yugo from Russia or former Yugoslavia and give them a major makeover and turn them into something of a performance vehicle.

But you don't. You use cars that already had some appeal to them and make them better.

eggynack

2013-11-01, 08:05 PM

If you create modified super cars as a hobby, you certainly could go buy an old Lada or Yugo from Russia or former Yugoslavia and give them a major makeover and turn them into something of a performance vehicle.

But you don't. You use cars that already had some appeal to them and make them better.
Indeed so. When you get right down to it, healers are kinda boring. They just do that one thing, heal, and a couple of other things, and there's just not much to attach to. Other low tier classes, like the barbarian, fighter, paladin, warlock, or even monk, have something that you can really dig into. There's some room for an edge, or for customization, or for a variety weird build constructions. Healers aren't nearly as dense.

Bards, however, are that dense, with a great number of interesting progressions. Additionally, even without odd builds, spell selection forms a baseline of customization. However, telling the people who you're asking for bard advice that you don't consider them qualified to hand out bard advice is a surefire way to get the minimum possible level of bard advice. Such is the nature of bard advice, and various other kinds of advice.

Stux

2013-11-01, 08:08 PM

But you don't. You use cars that already had some appeal to them and make them better.

Exactly. Its not that you can't optimize healing, its that healing in itself is not really optimal.

nyjastul69

2013-11-01, 08:10 PM

... However, telling the people who you're asking for bard advice that you don't consider them qualified to hand out bard advice is a surefire way to get the minimum possible level of bard advice. Such is the nature of bard advice, and various other kinds of advice.

Well said.

Edit: Doing so is also unseemly.

TuggyNE

2013-11-01, 08:37 PM

However, telling the people who you're asking for bard advice that you don't consider them qualified to hand out bard advice is a surefire way to get the minimum possible level of bard advice. Such is the nature of bard advice, and various other kinds of advice.

It's especially great when one insists that the people giving bard advice must first prove their qualifications, not by posting links to existing bard resources nor yet simply listing possibilities, but by explaining how to optimize a completely different class. (Presumably without linking to existing resources there either.)

Wait, that's not great at all. :smallannoyed:

Juntao112

2013-11-01, 08:42 PM

Two actual bard threads tonight!

Isamu Dyson

2013-11-01, 08:47 PM

I'd like to play a Bard that wields a katana to good effect in melee combat. What is the most effective way to go about this?

nyjastul69

2013-11-01, 08:48 PM

Two actual bard threads tonight!

But this isn't one of them! :smallwink: I think I lost track of what day it is, is it Monkday yet?

Lord_Gareth

2013-11-01, 08:51 PM

I'd like to play a Bard that wields a katana to good effect in melee combat. What is the most effective way to go about this?

Snowflake Wardance, maybe splash Warblade or Crusader for Song of the White Raven. If there's not an action conflict throw in some Dragonfire Inspiration because Lulz.

nyjastul69

2013-11-01, 08:53 PM

I'd like to play a Bard that wields a katana to good effect in melee combat. What is the most effective way to go about this?

Other than attacking with a katana, is there anything else you would like your Bard to do? Are you open to multi-classing, or are you looking for Bard only?

Boci

2013-11-01, 08:55 PM

I'd like to play a Bard that wields a katana to good effect in melee combat. What is the most effective way to go about this?

Bard 2 / Warblade X with snowflake wardance and Song of the White Raven. Or is that not bard enough?

Isamu Dyson

2013-11-01, 08:58 PM

Snowflake Wardance, maybe splash Warblade or Crusader for Song of the White Raven. If there's not an action conflict throw in some Dragonfire Inspiration because Lulz.

White Raven...that's from Tome of Battle, isn't it?

Other than attacking with a katana, is there anything else you would like your Bard to do? Are you open to multi-classing, or are you looking for Bard only?

At the minimum, they have to be a fair hand with the curved blade in question (which presumably means they'll be specializing in some sort of augmenting magic to offset their comparatively low HP and BAB).

Bard 2 / Warblade X with snowflake wardance and Song of the White Raven.

That PrC is in the Frostburn supplement, right?

Lord_Gareth

2013-11-01, 08:59 PM

That PrC is in the Frostburn supplement, right?

It's actually a feat! And...yes, I think.

Talya

2013-11-01, 09:02 PM

In order to use a Katana (bastard sword) with Snowflake Wardance you will need exotic weapon proficiency. Snowflake Wardance doesn't work with a two handed weapon.

Boci

2013-11-01, 09:03 PM

That PrC is in the Frostburn supplement, right?

A feat, available from level 3. You expend a daily use of your bardic music to gain Cha to attack with any slashing weapon you wield. You can dual wield, but no twohanded weapon or sword and board. Lasts for 10 minutes, ;eaves you fatigued.

In order to use a Katana (bastard sword) with Snowflake Wardance you will need exotic weapon proficiency. Snowflake Wardance doesn't work with a two handed weapon.

Or you can wield a long sword and call it a katana. Saves a feat if refluffing is okay.

Elderand

2013-11-01, 09:03 PM

Snowflake wardance is from frostburn indeed

Urpriest

2013-11-01, 09:06 PM

That PrC is in the Frostburn supplement, right?

Snowflake Wardance is a feat, not a PrC, but yes it's from Frostburn.

Warblade and Song of the White Raven are from Tome of Battle.

As an alternative, Bard 8/Paladin of Freedom 2/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/other PrCs that give you fairly good BAB and casting can work well. Sublime Chord is from Complete Arcane, Abjurant Champion is Complete Mage, and Paladin of Freedom is a variant Paladin from Unearthed Arcana.

In general, there are a bunch of ways to make a Bard that's good at melee. They're already pretty solid at it (that d8 HD and 3/4 BAB is what Clerics get, after all, and they're in melee all the time), and there are lots of PrCs and good multiclass synergies.

As an obligatory point that someone else is probably making right now, any particular reason for sticking with the katana? Typically in D&D katanas are Masterwork Bastard Swords. If it's just for the appearance, a Longsword can have a similar look and won't take a feat to use one-handed. They're usually a better weapon in general, while filling the same flavor niche.

SassyQuatch

2013-11-01, 09:13 PM

Greetings, you Big Stupids! I am The Bard!

You think you know of me, but you do not! I am too far beyond your comprehension, and I am knowing this because of my great bardic knowledge which you feeble-minded ones do not possess. Sure, you may know of me, most likely poorly-told stories told to you by the great many who are in awe of my great prowess in speech and action - do say "hello" to your sister for me, yes? - and perhaps also a small footnote of the wizards other such followers such who accompany me on my most spectacular travels.

But such things are of no consequence here, and they are probably all wrong because you non-bards cannot tell a story. Not like me, yes?

So, one of you has so boldly dared as to place themselves on a pedestal of knowledge and appreciation of myself whom they do not even know nor could not begin to fathom? To demand base answers while doltishly attempting to simultaneously appear as sagacious and as good looking - not possible? Yes, I know. I am The Bard after all - as I?

No! I shall not answer! You are not able to comprehend such things, and if by some fortune you could comprehend... you would still be lost in understanding, for it was all naught but a giant ruse by me, The Bard! Though I am so very humble I will acknowledge this very small truth of your inherent wrongness. So generous of me, I know. You are welcome.

So farewell, you small-minded ones, and rest well knowing that I do in fact exist in all my glory, even if you do not have the ability to truly appreciate... The Bard!

mabriss lethe

2013-11-01, 09:19 PM

SassyQuatch

2013-11-01, 09:21 PM

This is all my mind would let me see. (http://earnthis.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/The-Road-To-El-Dorado-the-road-to-el-dorado-4920183-768-432.jpg)
Though if you had my class features you might see more, as I do, my little friend!

Ortesk

2013-11-01, 09:23 PM

I would make a post saying something about the fact you spit in my face, and everyones here....But one warning over you is enough for me

Talya

2013-11-01, 09:31 PM

Sassy's demonstrating bardic psychosis. Good show!

Coidzor

2013-11-01, 09:46 PM

Warblade (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2)was posted on the WOTC website, so you can check it out without having to hunt down the book first.

Paladin of Freedom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures) you can also find in the SRD.

In order to use a Katana (bastard sword) with Snowflake Wardance you will need exotic weapon proficiency. Snowflake Wardance doesn't work with a two handed weapon.

That, or a Sunsword(Expedition to Castle Ravenloft)/Sunblade(DMG)

mabriss lethe

2013-11-01, 10:55 PM

Am I the only one still curious about the baby oil?

nyjastul69

2013-11-01, 10:59 PM

Am I the only one still curious about the baby oil?

Absolutely not! I'm still awaiting my answer to that query as well.

Zombulian

2013-11-01, 11:15 PM

visigani

2013-11-01, 11:20 PM

Talya

2013-11-01, 11:26 PM

http://jokeslab.com/jokepics/funny-car-photos34.jpg

And some people choose another path...

And that person was a moron. There is no artistry, beauty, or even purpose to that vehicle, other than cheap lulz.

visigani

2013-11-01, 11:33 PM

And that person was a moron. There is no artistry, beauty, or even purpose to that vehicle, other than cheap lulz.

It says right on the side of the car "For Fun". Why be such a sour puss?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-twU1jAWKQ2k/USjtqFZQroI/AAAAAAAAAMs/hFqZ9EO-mfo/s640/crazy-funny-cars-floats-7.jpg

Here's a hippo. Everyone loves hippos. Unless they eat you.

Zombulian

2013-11-01, 11:38 PM

And that person was a moron. There is no artistry, beauty, or even purpose to that vehicle, other than cheap lulz.

See now you're just being bitter. He made a funny joke.

TuggyNE

2013-11-01, 11:38 PM

Or you can wield a long sword and call it a katana.

I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if a million otaku cried out and were suddenly silenced.

It says right on the side of the car "For Fun". Why be such a sour puss?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-twU1jAWKQ2k/USjtqFZQroI/AAAAAAAAAMs/hFqZ9EO-mfo/s640/crazy-funny-cars-floats-7.jpg

Here's a hippo. Everyone loves hippos. Unless they eat you.

That is the most horrifyingly tacky modified car I think I've ever seen. :smalleek:

nyjastul69

2013-11-01, 11:41 PM

http://jokeslab.com/jokepics/funny-car-photos34.jpg

And some people choose another path...

Now I'm really confused. Are we supposed to be discussing Bard optimization, Healer optimization, psionics, or tricked out cars? Do you have any comments regarding your original post? How is your Bard build coming along?

visigani

2013-11-01, 11:41 PM

See now you're just being bitter. He made a funny joke.

And now you're *actually* being bitter. All I did was post a picture of a car.

Saidoro

2013-11-01, 11:41 PM

Absolutely not! I'm still awaiting my answer to that query as well.
Unless I miss my guess, answering your question would fall into the forum's inappropriate topics list. Which quite possibly answers your question.

Coidzor

2013-11-01, 11:42 PM

That is the most horrifyingly tacky modified car I think I've ever seen. :smalleek:

Just remember, this is the internet. It can always get worse. Which will, in someone else's mind, be better.

Talya

2013-11-01, 11:43 PM

It says right on the side of the car "For Fun". Why be such a sour puss?

I absolutely despise the so-called "SmartCar" as one of the most impractical, overpriced, and misleading cars ever made. Nevertheless, it does get reasonably good mileage and is easy to park.

That abomination has sacrificed the only things it had going for it at all, to no advantage whatsoever.

It might be "for fun"... but it's certainly not amusing. It's one of those... "What a waste of resources" moments.

Zombulian

2013-11-01, 11:44 PM

And now you're *actually* being bitter. All I did was post a picture of a car.

Did... Did you just jab at me for defending you? Dude what.

Theoboldi

2013-11-01, 11:44 PM

And now you're *actually* being bitter. All I did was post a picture of a car.

What? Huh? Is this another joke? I don't get it. You're being confusing again. :smallfrown:

visigani

2013-11-01, 11:46 PM

Now I'm really confused. Are we supposed to be discussing Bard optimization, Healer optimization, psionics, or tricked out cars? Do you have any comments regarding your original post? How is your Bard build coming along?

Actually, I'm mulling on the deficiencies of the Healer class and thinking they should've made it into a disney princess-esque character class.

Give it bardic music, a special mount, a familiar, and an animal companion, expand its spell list to include AoE buffs and summon nature's ally while beefing up SNA... and you'd have a viable class...

One that sings, has a repoire with nature, and is naturally good while aiding allies.

visigani

2013-11-01, 11:47 PM

Did... Did you just jab at me for defending you? Dude what.

I should've indicated I was teasing, my bad. =)

Red Fel

2013-11-01, 11:47 PM

I will post to this thread only once, and only to say this:

Why are you still feeding him?

Theoboldi

2013-11-01, 11:49 PM

nyjastul69

2013-11-01, 11:50 PM

... Why be such a sour puss..

Ummm... I got nothing for this.

Talya

2013-11-01, 11:51 PM

Zombulian

2013-11-01, 11:51 PM

Actually, I'm mulling on the deficiencies of the Healer class and thinking they should've made it into a disney princess-esque character class.

Give it bardic music, a special mount, a familiar, and an animal companion, expand its spell list to include AoE buffs and summon nature's ally while beefing up SNA... and you'd have a viable class...

One that sings, has a repoire with nature, and is naturally good while aiding allies.

Isn't there a Druid/Bard PrC for that?

Coidzor

2013-11-01, 11:52 PM

Disney Princess class...oooh. Interesting. I see two of them even as viable...

Archery focused with a bit of mounted combat? (Merida)
Dextrous melee combatant with disguise skill and a dragon companion? (Mulan)

It is an intriguing idea.

Isn't there a Druid/Bard PrC for that?

Green Whisperer and Fochlucan Lyrist are the only ones of that nature I can recall. Neither progresses the animal companion, as I recall.

visigani

2013-11-01, 11:53 PM

I absolutely despise the so-called "SmartCar" as one of the most impractical, overpriced, and misleading cars ever made. Nevertheless, it does get reasonably good mileage and is easy to park.

That abomination has sacrificed the only things it had going for it at all, to no advantage whatsoever.

It might be "for fun"... but it's certainly not amusing. It's one of those... "What a waste of resources" moments.

But it gets superior traction. =)

http://1.design-milk.com/images/2009/11/tank-chair.jpg

If I'm going mudding in a ridiculous wheelchair... this is the wheelchair I'ma go mudding in.

So, how about dem bardz?

visigani

2013-11-01, 11:54 PM

Disney Princess class...oooh. Interesting. I see two of them even as viable...

Archery focused with a bit of mounted combat? (Merida)
Dextrous melee combatant with disguise skill and a dragon companion? (Mulan)

See, i'm leaning towards Belle (though she';d almost certainly be a Wizard)... more maybe Snow White...

Girlfriend of Valarian style.

Theoboldi

2013-11-01, 11:56 PM

nyjastul69

2013-11-01, 11:56 PM

Unless I miss my guess, answering your question would fall into the forum's inappropriate topics list. Which quite possibly answers your question.

Makes it sound like an inappropriate reference to begin with. I certainly can imagine. What I'm thinking of will be worse than what I find after googling. Again though, a reference that can't be explained because it's not appropriate for the board, is probably not an appropriate reference on the board.

visigani

2013-11-01, 11:57 PM

See, i'm leaning towards Belle (though she';d almost certainly be a Wizard)... more maybe Snow White...

Girlfriend of Valarian style.

Also, am I the only one that thinks Belle as Wizard would rock in a movie and would be Jessica Rabbit hot? With Wizardly Nerd Glasses.

yeah baby, YEAH!!!

Coidzor

2013-11-01, 11:58 PM

You guys really are way too easy to win over, you know that? Does no one remember how this guy was treating us just 2 pages ago? :smalltongue:

Really though, I'm remaining sceptical about his newfound friendly behavior.

The bigger sin is to be boring, after all.

Or to get drawn into a wailing and gnashing of teeth.

visigani

2013-11-02, 12:00 AM

It is an intriguing idea.

Green Whisperer and Fochlucan Lyrist are the only ones of that nature I can recall. Neither progresses the animal companion, as I recall.

There's a bardic variant that grants an animal companion..

ard
A rare bard might display a special link to nature and the mysterious world of the fey. Such characters tend to be more aloof and less inspiring than standard bards.

Gain
Animal companion (as druid), nature sense (as druid), resist nature's lure (as druid), wild empathy (as druid).

Lose
Bardic knowledge, inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, inspire heroics.

But as you can see you lose a LOT of really nice stuff.

Though one could argue that your music represents your song and poetics...

Ortesk

2013-11-02, 12:02 AM

At this point the desperate pleas for attention is getting sad really. But i digress, your original topic was answered, now its became blatant attempts at getting responses. At least the insulting is....diminishing

visigani

2013-11-02, 12:02 AM

You guys really are way too easy to win over, you know that? Does no one remember how this guy was treating us just 2 pages ago? :smalltongue:

Really though, I'm remaining sceptical about his newfound friendly behavior.

http://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r742/mrcappadocia/Smiley-Face-Optical-Illusion_zps746f17f0.png

nyjastul69

2013-11-02, 12:04 AM

Seer_of_Heart

2013-11-02, 12:07 AM

Green Whisperer and Fochlucan Lyrist are the only ones of that nature I can recall. Neither progresses the animal companion, as I recall.

Fochlucan Lyrist is obviously a ur-priest sublime chord gish prc :smalltongue:. What bard/druid are you speaking of.

visigani

2013-11-02, 12:07 AM

Is the Disney Princess thing a reference to the Bard class? I haven't seen a Disney movie since Alladin. Maybe I missed your point. Also, Healers get a fine Mount.

They do, in the Unicorn.

And Disney princesses always had a vaguely high fantasy feel. If they weren't exactly Sorceresses (or Rogues) they came awful close to it in some respects.

Oddly enough, Disney treats its male protagonists just terribly in their animation.

However, "Beauty as Magic" would seem to fit right in line with Disney princesses.

Zombulian

2013-11-02, 12:24 AM

You guys really are way too easy to win over, you know that? Does no one remember how this guy was treating us just 2 pages ago? :smalltongue:

Really though, I'm remaining sceptical about his newfound friendly behavior.

>reminds other forumites of the jabs that visigani made
>by jabbing forumites

Seriously though, I'm not totally won over. But I was perfectly okay with the transition to actual discussion of 3.5 - as that is what this board is for.

Theoboldi

2013-11-02, 12:28 AM

>reminds other forumites of the jabs that visigani made
>by jabbing forumites

Seriously though, I'm not totally won over. But I was perfectly okay with the transition to actual discussion of 3.5 - as that is what this board is for.

I wouldn't qualify the things he said as jabs, to be entirely honest. :smallannoyed:

Besides, by now, between the strange nonsequitur tone of his posts and sudden playfulness, I believe he might just have gone insane.

visigani

2013-11-02, 12:29 AM

I wouldn't qualify the things he said as jabs, to be entirely honest. :smallannoyed:

Besides, by now, between the strange nonsequitur tone of his posts and sudden playfulness, I believe he might just have gone insane.

Could we ease off the personal attacks? They're really quite unnecessary, you know.

Theoboldi

2013-11-02, 12:32 AM

Could we ease off the personal attacks? They're really quite unnecessary, you know.

What exactly about my post did you take as a personal attack? I assure you that I did not intend to make one, and apologise if I came across as rude.

But I'm not going to change my opinion about the things you said. You acted like a complete jerk.

Zombulian

2013-11-02, 12:32 AM

Could we ease off the personal attacks? They're really quite unnecessary, you know.

Dis guy. Diiiis guy.

nyjastul69

2013-11-02, 12:33 AM

They do, in the Unicorn.

And Disney princesses always had a vaguely high fantasy feel. If they weren't exactly Sorceresses (or Rogues) they came awful close to it in some respects.

Oddly enough, Disney treats its male protagonists just terribly in their animation.

However, "Beauty as Magic" would seem to fit right in line with Disney princesses.

So your answer is yes? I missed the reference and asked for clarification. Can you please clarify?

Ortesk

2013-11-02, 12:33 AM

What exactly about my post did you take as a personal attack? I assure you that I did not intend to make one, and apologise if I came across as rude.

But I'm not going to change my opinion about the things you said. You acted like a complete jerk.

I agree with the above message and with the person stating them

visigani

2013-11-02, 12:35 AM

So your answer is yes? I missed the reference and asked for clarification. Can you please clarify?

Uh... sure (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og1QRtcWdEY)?

nyjastul69

2013-11-02, 12:37 AM

Could we ease off the personal attacks? They're really quite unnecessary, you know.

I'd prefer we ease off all attacks, personal and impersonal. There really isn't a difference.

nyjastul69

2013-11-02, 12:43 AM

Uh... sure (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og1QRtcWdEY)?

I don't click on video links. I'm guessing a Disney related video. I'll just assume your princess reference was in regards to the Bard class. Are you still looking for Bardic knowledge? You haven't really engaged your own topic much.

Edit: Let me clarify, you haven't seemed concerned in engaging in a discussion of Bards. You certainly have engaged though.

visigani

2013-11-02, 12:45 AM

I don't click on video links. I'm guessing a Disney related video. I'll just assume your princess reference was in regards to the Bard class. Are you still looking for Bardic knowledge? You haven't really engaged your own topic much.

It didn't interest me that much. Part of the reason I enjoy D&D is that it allows me to flit back and forth.

Though i *am* interested in learning about bards from the alleged masters, I'm also interested in how D&D can be worked into Ender's Game.

I saw Ender's Game tonight and it screams Dungeons and Dragons.

Ortesk

2013-11-02, 12:47 AM

alleged masters,

Your Subtlety on vacation?

visigani

2013-11-02, 12:48 AM

Your Subtlety on vacation?

Well D&D is fundamentally about masculinity, as is Ender's Game.

How the two can be interwoven fascinates me.

nyjastul69

2013-11-02, 12:51 AM

It didn't interest me that much. Part of the reason I enjoy D&D is that it allows me to flit back and forth.

Though i *am* interested in learning about bards from the alleged masters, I'm also interested in how D&D can be worked into Ender's Game.

I saw Ender's Game tonight and it screams Dungeons and Dragons.

Some more clarification is needed. You weren't interested in your own original post, or am I misunderstanding your statement? What ate you flitting back and forth between? What is an Ender's Game? Who claimed this board has mastery over anything?

visigani

2013-11-02, 12:54 AM

Some more clarification is needed. You weren't interested in your own original post, or am I misunderstanding your statement? What ate you flitting back and forth between? What is an Ender's Game? Who claimed this board has mastery over anything?

Ender's Game is a recently released film. I'd link you a trailer on youube but you wouldn't click it.

I'll come around to being interested in bards again eventually.

Right now I'm interested in expressing in a cognizant manner how a society that is represented by its willingness to destroy a little boy for its own self preservation could be used to sum up the nature of Dungeons and Dragons and masculinity in general.

Theoboldi

2013-11-02, 12:54 AM

Visigani. I'm writing this post not in malice, but because I genuinly want to give you helpfulf advice.

You can't just keep on switching the topic in every second post you make. Doing so destroys every possibility of a normal conversation. You can't flit back and forth on an internet forum, because that will just confuse and alienate anyone who tries to converse with you. You can't just suddenly change the topic in the middle of a thread without reason. There may be a random talk thread somewhere in the lower forums, but this is not the place for it.

visigani

2013-11-02, 12:56 AM

nyjastul69

2013-11-02, 12:56 AM

Well D&D is fundamentally about masculinity, as is Ender's Game.

How the two can be interwoven fascinates me.

Ummm... how is D&D fundamentally about masculinity? That doesn't make any sense. The Endie Thingie might though, I have no knowledge of that reference.

Theoboldi

2013-11-02, 12:57 AM

Ummm... how is D&D fundamentally about masculinity? That doesn't make any sense. The Endie Thingie might though, I have no knowledge of that reference.

He's trolling. I think he revealed himself in his last response to me. At least we now know for sure, though.

visigani

2013-11-02, 12:59 AM

Ummm... how is D&D fundamentally about masculinity? That doesn't make any sense. The Endie Thingie might though, I have no knowledge of that reference.

Are you being serious, or are you trolling me here? If you're having a laugh at my expense that's fine... but if you really want to know..

Ortesk

2013-11-02, 12:59 AM

He's trolling. I think he revealed himself in his last response to me. At least we now know for sure, though.

Lets be honest, he wants attention. Either we feed him unhtil hes sick or we ignore him until he goes away

visigani

2013-11-02, 01:00 AM

Lets be honest, he wants attention. Either we feed him unhtil hes sick or we ignore him until he goes away

Would you stop attacking me? If you don't want to be a part of the conversation... don't be. Or try contributing positively.

nyjastul69

2013-11-02, 01:05 AM

I'll keep that in mind. =)

Speaking of which, what would be the heal check for gallbladder surgery?

I assume you mean what is the DC on the heal check for gallbladder surgery. You should check with your DM on that one. The DM would likely consider how the organ was damaged, how long since the damage was done, etc.

I'm gonna agree with some otheds that if you want many answers to many questions you shouldn't try to cram them all into a single thread.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-02, 01:38 AM

They can make decent Ubermount builds. The Unicorn is pretty dang strong, and I think they can get Coatls right? Those have some interesting abilities. Healers are generally better at healing than Clerics and Druids until about lvl 7, then at lvl 8 they get their Unicorn and you switch your focus.

Okay, relatively (somehow) back on topic, is this for real? Because honestly, this sounds awesome.

Doc_Maynot

2013-11-02, 01:42 AM

Okay, relatively (somehow) back on topic, is this for real? Because honestly, this sounds awesome.

Yeah, it's -8 levels of advancement though.

nyjastul69

2013-11-02, 01:48 AM

Are you being serious, or are you trolling me here? If you're having a laugh at my expense that's fine... but if you really want to know..

I'm being 100% serious. What makes you think I'm trolling you? I think I've been more serious than you have in this thread.

eggynack

2013-11-02, 02:20 AM

So, how about dem bardz?
The fact of the matter is, until your first post, and several similar posts after it, stops telling us that we lack the authority to give you bard advice, there is really no reason for us to give you bard advice. We lack the authority to do so in your eyes, you see. If you actually seek bard advice, and you're not just posting here in a thinly veiled attempt to be mean to people as several of my fellow forumites claim, then your best course of action would probably be to edit that stuff out of your original post, and likely apologize in a manner indicating that you've done so. After that, you're far more likely to get what you want, unless what you actually want is completely unrelated to that. It's really your choice, ultimately.

visigani

2013-11-02, 03:05 AM

I'm being 100% serious. What makes you think I'm trolling you? I think I've been more serious than you have in this thread.

Good point.

Masculinity, at its most basic, is a response. Masculinity is, and has always been, in some form, reactive.

More importantly, it is a set of guidelines that determine what that reaction must be and then it is a societal wide belief structure that is imprinted in the minds of children from a young age so they won't be divorced from it.

"When it's over what will be left of the boy?"
"What does it matter if there's nothing left at all?"

The above perfectly describes our societies view of men and masculinity in general. Men are expendable and masculinity is the means by which society makes it so.

If you'll notice D&D follows this to a tee. You get rewards for great risks, great suffering, great hardship, and great moral sacrifice. If these campaigns were real, think for a moment just how much horror they would entail. We turn them into abstractions quite intentionally.

D&D, like lord knows how many other forms of media, trains its audience to believe that by taking a great risk, especially for the benefit of others, you will be rewarded.

Strangely enough, the great risk inherent in D&D has never been that it trains young people, especially males in this custom, but that it provides them an opportunity to explore the alternative.

The motivations that inspire virtually all D&D campaigns... the character classes... even the races themselves... all scream masculinity.

Think about it.... there's precisely *one* core race with a female primary deity.... Yondalla. Deity of the childlike Halflings.

Yet think of the bad guys... Tiamat, Ilsenine, Llolth, Blibdoolpoolp, Great Mother, Cegilune... all female leader of female lead pantheons and all of those creatures are evil to the core.

Malak'ai

2013-11-02, 03:15 AM

*Spiel about what Masculinity is*

"Looks at 10' pole"

Nope... Not even with that :smalleek:.

Talya

2013-11-02, 03:23 AM

None of that made any sense whatsoever.

TuggyNE

2013-11-02, 03:25 AM

"Looks at 10' pole"

Nope... Not even with that :smalleek:.

Yeahhhhh, so not gonna attempt to figure that stuff out. :smallsigh: My brain, she is too much of the hurting.

eggynack

2013-11-02, 03:27 AM

"Looks at 10' pole"

Nope... Not even with that :smalleek:.
How about those 12' long collapsible poles from dungeonscape? Perhaps the doubled up 22' version would do it.

Talya

2013-11-02, 03:29 AM

How about those 12' long collapsible poles from dungeonscape? Perhaps the doubled up 22' version would do it.

Now that sounds more like it's about masculinity.

Malak'ai

2013-11-02, 03:57 AM

How about those 12' long collapsible poles from dungeonscape? Perhaps the doubled up 22' version would do it.

Not compensating for anything now are we? :smallwink:.

But even then, still not long enough.

the_david

2013-11-02, 04:25 AM

Wait, he's telling us we're terrible at builds but he can't make a simple bard build himself?

And the questions he asks...
Knowing what the best feats, variants, races and classes that gestalt the best are for the bard doesn't mean you have a überleet bard. It means you're a noob who threw some things together that probably don't work with each other anyway, and who hasn't got a clue how to play his own character. What works best depends on your entire build. There is no best overall.

Ortesk

2013-11-02, 04:57 AM

eggynack

2013-11-02, 05:11 AM

It made sense to me, blah blah blah Dnd 3.5 favors men yet at the same time bashes men, society currently is like that, ie society is like dnd in a way, in one hand it makes being a man viewed as awesome yet in the end results in empty life if you follow the pre set course. Im sorry for any confusion my rant has caused, im not good at explaining things, only comprehending
The part about men being generic or expendable and women being unique is fine, because that does represent a part of our culture to some extent (the whole "women and children" thing is a good example of that). What isn't clear is how that connects to D&D at large, because I can't really see it as a major part of the game. How do wizards, for example, scream masculinity? I mean, sure, there're some spells that could be perceived in that fashion, but there're just as many that could likely be perceived in the opposite fashion. I just don't get it.

Ortesk

2013-11-02, 05:20 AM

The part about men being generic or expendable and women being unique is fine, because that does represent a part of our culture to some extent (the whole "women and children" thing is a good example of that). What isn't clear is how that connects to D&D at large, because I can't really see it as a major part of the game. How do wizards, for example, scream masculinity? I mean, sure, there're some spells that could be perceived in that fashion, but there're just as many that could likely be perceived in the opposite fashion. I just don't get it.

What i think he's meaning is alot of the classes scream masculinity. Let me try to explain using core classes.

Barbarians/Fighters/Paladins/Rangers: Strong, courageous, heroic, steadfast. Or thats the ideal right? Which in society is how men are expected to be, even if its increasingly hard to match those lofty goals

Bard/Rogue/Sorceror: Charming, witty, funny, again what men are expected to be capable of by our societies belief

Wizard: Always has a plan, The voice of reason, The one with all the answers, The one who always know what way to steer the ship. Again, men are looked to as leaders of there families and these are expected of us

I dont think the masculinity is a massive part of dnd or a part that takes the fore front, its an underlying thing throughout the entireness of the series

eggynack

2013-11-02, 05:37 AM

What i think he's meaning is alot of the classes scream masculinity. Let me try to explain using core classes.

Barbarians/Fighters/Paladins/Rangers: Strong, courageous, heroic, steadfast. Or thats the ideal right? Which in society is how men are expected to be, even if its increasingly hard to match those lofty goals

Bard/Rogue/Sorceror: Charming, witty, funny, again what men are expected to be capable of by our societies belief

Wizard: Always has a plan, The voice of reason, The one with all the answers, The one who always know what way to steer the ship. Again, men are looked to as leaders of there families and these are expected of us

I dont think the masculinity is a massive part of dnd or a part that takes the fore front, its an underlying thing throughout the entireness of the series
But, y'know, you're putting a lot of that in there yourself. Take the bard for example. It looks like the only mention of bards being funny at all is tied to gnomes, and a lot of the class actually talks about bringing hope and courage to the downtrodden. Sorcerers lack even that slightest nod to your claims. It looks like you're forming some odd view of masculinity (which comes across as a bit sexist, I might add, though it might be difficult to discuss this topic without coming across as sexist), and imprinting those views onto the classes, without actually looking at what's there.

Vedhin

2013-11-02, 09:57 AM

Dextrous melee combatant with disguise skill and a dragon companion? (Mulan)

I want to play this class. I'd emulate it with Bard, Obtain Familiar, Improved Familiar (Pseudodragon), Weapon Finesse, and maybe a Swordsage dip for Shadow Blade.

Malak'ai

2013-11-02, 10:15 AM

Disney Princess class...oooh. Interesting. I see two of them even as viable...

Archery focused with a bit of mounted combat? (Merida)
Dextrous melee combatant with disguise skill and a dragon companion? (Mulan)

I've actually discussed this with a friend and both came to agree that we'd have Mulan as more of a meatshield with Obtain Familiar/Improved Familiar. In saying that, I can certainly see her your way as well.

The roles we decided for some of the other Princesses were:
Ariel = Bard.
Cinderella = Summoner Druid.
Belle = Wizard.
Jasmin = Beguiler.
Aurora = Fighter.

We never come up with anything for Rapunzel or any of the others.
Now for the life of me, I can't remember why we decided on these roles for them, we were kind of drunk at the time.

Vedhin

2013-11-02, 10:23 AM

Ariel = Bard.
Cinderella = Summoner Druid.
Belle = Wizard.
Jasmin = Beguiler.
Aurora = Fighter.

My take:

Ariel = Savage/Fey Bard, refluffed.
Cinderella = Savage/Fey Bard, refluffed.
Belle = did she ever do anything noteworthy, class-ability wise? I guess Wizard for her love of books makes sense.
Jasmin = Savage/Fey Bard, refluffed. Jafar was the Beguiler/Mindbender (possibly dip. Had Obtain Familiar for Iago). Aladdin was a Rogue/Swashbuckler with Daring Outlaw.
Aurora = Duskblade.

I notice a lot of Savage/Fey Bards. To be clear, I do mean combine the two variants.

Juntao112

2013-11-02, 10:38 AM

Ender's Game is a recently released film. I'd link you a trailer on youube but you wouldn't click it.

I lack your telepathy, so I am going to do it for him for you. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UNWLgY-wuo)

Malak'ai

2013-11-02, 10:39 AM

Talya

2013-11-02, 10:43 AM

My take:

Ariel = Savage/Fey Bard, refluffed.
Cinderella = Savage/Fey Bard, refluffed.
Belle = did she ever do anything noteworthy, class-ability wise? I guess Wizard for her love of books makes sense.
Jasmin = Savage/Fey Bard, refluffed. Jafar was the Beguiler/Mindbender (possibly dip. Had Obtain Familiar for Iago). Aladdin was a Rogue/Swashbuckler with Daring Outlaw.
Aurora = Duskblade.

I notice a lot of Savage/Fey Bards. To be clear, I do mean combine the two variants.

Jafar was no beguiler. Sorcerer, perhaps. That's what he says he is, and he definitely has Polymorph spells after Genie levels him up.

34. I will not turn into a snake. It never helps.

Aladdin never fights with a sword or dagger - or anything at all, really. I put him as a Feat-Rogue with Thief Acrobat PrC. Jasmine's an aristocrat with wild cohort.

I'm not inclined to make any of the princesses as spellcasters. None of them showed any ability. Rapunzel has an at-will Spell-Like Heal, though. It also needs to temporarily set one's age category back...

Belle's likely an Expert with all the knowledge skills.
Ariel is an aristocrat mermaid.
Aurora and Snow White are just aristocrats.
Cinderella is a commoner.

Most of them need Wild Empathy somehow, though.

Mulan and Merida are the only ones shown to have any real combat skill.

Vedhin

2013-11-02, 10:47 AM

I do remember Aurora was given Fighter because she didn't really do anything. She wasn't even the "hero" in her own movie.

I went with Duskblade because Disney Princesses were all magicky. I realized that I misremembered who Aurora was. I think she should be an Expert actually, maybe an Aristocrat.

I'd have to think it over ignoring the singing.

Ariel=Savage/Fey Bard, still. She likely has the Beastmaster PrC for Sebastian, Flounder, and that third critter I can never remember.
Cinderella=Summoner Druid, like you said.
Belle=?
Jasmin=She might be something like a Rogue, but she is hard to pin down. Definitely has the Wild Cohort feat.

Will be back later to cover others.

Jafar was no beguiler. Sorcerer, perhaps. That's what he says he is, and he definitely has Polymorph spells after Genie levels him up.

Yeah, I forgot about that. I was focused on his mind control things. And those came from his staff, maybe it was a Runestaff of Enchantment?

Aladdin never fights with a sword or dagger - or anything at all, really. I put him as a Feat-Rogue with Thief Acrobat PrC.

Good point. He still seems like he should be a Swashbuckler to me though. Maybe the DM houseruled Daring Outlaw to work with Feat Rogue?

I'm not inclined to make any of the princesses as spellcasters. None of them showed any ability. Rapunzel has an at-will Spell-Like Heal, though. It also needs to temporarily set one's age category back...

Yeah, that's the hard part. They were all magicky, but not really castery.

A Tad Insane

2013-11-02, 10:54 AM

And here, fellow denizens of the internet, we have a great example of the both "if you post it, they will reply" and "given enough time, any bait will be taken". Remember, take only misgivings about humanity, and leave only views. Please refrain from feeding the trolls.

Talya

2013-11-02, 10:54 AM

Yeah, that's the hard part. They were all magicky, but not really castery.

The only "magicky" ability most of them seem to show is Wild Empathy.

I'd actually exclude Ariel from that. All the fish in that setting seem to be awakened or anthropomorphic. They're just friends. (Not food. Oh wait, I'm mixing my Disney references again.)

ben-zayb

2013-11-02, 10:55 AM

Talya

2013-11-02, 10:59 AM

Oh Mulan is definitely a Dex-based Swordsage with the Agile Athlete feat. That ranged accuracy, that climb mod, and that high disarm check (using an improvised light weapon against a probably Powerfully Built guy wielding a 2H weapon, no less)

Ha. And if anyone says "Swordsage is too Wuxia!" you can answer, "She's Chinese."

Our waitress when we ate at the Coral Reef restaurant in Epcot Center in September was actually named Mulan. She seemed exasperated when I made fun of that. "Really? You're named Mulan and you work at Walt Disney World?"

Elderand

2013-11-02, 11:01 AM

Ha. And if anyone says "Swordsage is too Wuxia!" you can answer, "She's Chinese."

Our waitress when we ate at the Coral Reef restaurant in Epcot Center in September was actually named Mulan. She seemed exasperated when I made fun of that. "Really? You're named Mulan and you work at Walt Disney World?"

Of course she's going to be exasperated. That's so obvious anyone with a barely working brain will make that joke.

Vedhin

2013-11-02, 11:02 AM

Our waitress when we ate at the Coral Reef restaurant in Epcot Center in September was actually named Mulan. She seemed exasperated when I made fun of that. "Really? You're named Mulan and you work at Walt Disney World?"

While I sympathize with her pain, that was not a wise choice of workplace if it was going to bother her. It may have helped her get the job though.

Doc_Maynot

2013-11-02, 11:14 AM

Perhaps Jafar was a Sha'ir? Would have access to the spells and skills to be one. Not to mention his obsession with Geniefolk.

Fax Celestis

2013-11-02, 11:20 AM

However, "Beauty as Magic" would seem to fit right in line with Disney princesses.

That would make them Imagists from BoEF.

Talya

2013-11-02, 11:30 AM

That would make them Imagists from BoEF.

Oh, man. Walt Disney Company would love that...

(Not that there isn't enough Disney fetish material online, I suppose. It's not even a very obscure example of Rule 34.)

Bruenin

2013-11-02, 11:43 AM

Because I need something to do until I get an response in the Freeform RP subforum.

Not to mention that I'm somewhat curious about whether he really is trolling, or just someone who desperatly wants to prove how superior he is to everyone else, or just a very rude and inhumanly oblivious person.

I like your avatar : P

OT: I like bards, It's fun being able to utilize diplomacy to crazy levels. You can also get the skill perk that lets you substitute a diplomacy check with a bluff check and with glibness plus the -10 penalty you take for having to use a bluff you can always alter the persons disposition by one step. But only by one step because it's limited that way. Although you choose to use the skill on a failed diplomacy check so no matter what, no matter who you meet, they're going to like you just a little bit better than your friends : P

My current bard is more arcane focused, with five levels in wizard and now i'm working on Ultimate Magus. I use words of creation plus masterwork horn and other items with the animate instrument spell to have inspire courage +12 and dragonfire inspiration at 12d6 extra damage and then I have a a crazy metamagic launch bolt that lets me shoot 12 crossbow bolts a round, all getting the same bonuses from my songs so they do some nice damage. The end result is me dancing around the field buffing every one and raining bolts down on the enemies while occasionally slapping people in the face with a cure spell if they need it. It's not exactly bard focuses outside of the bardic music though so it might not be what you're looking for.

The launch bolt spell is an arcane thesis launch bolt with Reach spell, and chain spell. Easy metamagic on the chain spell and it only takes a level 2 slot. If your DM is the kind that would be okay with the +0 reduced to -1 metamagic cost for using invisible spell and sanctum spell you can drop the spell level to 0 but that's questionable.

Malak'ai

2013-11-02, 11:49 AM

Aladdin never fights with a sword or dagger - or anything at all, really. I put him as a Feat-Rogue with Thief Acrobat PrC.

He did a couple of times, but it was always defensive. Even then, he wasn't very good with them.

Vedhin

2013-11-02, 12:02 PM

That would make them Imagists from BoEF.

Why must you say this?
Why, Fax, WHY?!?!?!

Anyway, on to Disney Princess builds. First off, ignoring singing.

Snow White: Friend of all the animals, so Druid. High Charisma, but low Wisdom (Failed Sense Motive and ate the poisoned apple, also explains lack of casting). 1st level, and traded Nature's Sense and Animal Companion away with indeterminate ACFs.

Cinderella: Skilled dancer, so had a perform skill. Fey Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bard) gives Perform (dance) and Wild Empathy. 1st level only gives cantrips, which are handwaved as useless.

Aurora: Aristocrat. Put ranks into Handle Animal.

Ariel: Definitely a Bard. Fey Bard is once again likely. Low Wisdom and Sense Motive, as with Snow White.

Belle: Decent practical knowledge, so Expert. Put many ranks into Knowledge skills.

Jasmine: As mentioned by Talya, Aristocrat with Wild Cohort.

Pocahontas: Druid, duh. Possibly with this variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid). Focused on spells like Speak with Animals.

Mulan: ben-zayb nailed it with Dex-based Swordsage. Mushu is likely some sort of houseruled Improved Familiar or Wild Cohort.

*knowledge of Disney Princesses ends at this point in time*

Coidzor

2013-11-02, 12:26 PM

Why must you say this?
Why, Fax, WHY?!?!?!

Because they're worth it too. :smallamused:

Zombulian

2013-11-02, 01:15 PM

So where does Cuzco fit in all of this? He is an honorary princess after all.

visigani

2013-11-02, 03:54 PM

None of that made any sense whatsoever.

It makes sense, it's just difficult to see.

Look at it this way, if men, just men, stopped showing up to work for a week it's conceivable our entire society would collapse.

Men die on the job ten times more often than women. There's no demographic that exists under that specific kind of burden. More importantly, it's a burden we as a society are very comfortable with. It's why we don't talk about it.

Every woman in the U.S. over the age of 18 should have a selective service card as eligibility for the draft is actually a condition of citizenship for the American Male. He pays for his citizenship, she does not. As women are now legally allowed on the front lines there is literally no reason why women shouldn't be forced to sign up for the draft like any man does.

Except women are the majority of voters, and all politicians know this. So it's never going to happen.

High risk/high reward careers are dominated by men... sometimes with men accounting for 100% or more simply because the number of women who engage in those careers aren't numerous enough to actually make up a single percentile.

D&D is all about high risk/high reward. The riskier the career... the greater the reward.

Malak'ai

2013-11-02, 04:10 PM

D&D is all about high risk/high reward. The riskier the career... the greater the reward.

I suggest we end this particular line of discussion now before it devolves into some kind of gender war.

Fiery Diamond

2013-11-02, 04:23 PM

You can't have men accounting for more than 100% of anything. Mathematically impossible.

Eldest

2013-11-02, 04:31 PM

It makes sense, it's just difficult to see.

Look at it this way, if men, just men, stopped showing up to work for a week it's conceivable our entire society would collapse.

Men die on the job ten times more often than women. There's no demographic that exists under that specific kind of burden. More importantly, it's a burden we as a society are very comfortable with. It's why we don't talk about it.

Every woman in the U.S. over the age of 18 should have a selective service card as eligibility for the draft is actually a condition of citizenship for the American Male. He pays for his citizenship, she does not. As women are now legally allowed on the front lines there is literally no reason why women shouldn't be forced to sign up for the draft like any man does.

Except women are the majority of voters, and all politicians know this. So it's never going to happen.

High risk/high reward careers are dominated by men... sometimes with men accounting for 100% or more simply because the number of women who engage in those careers aren't numerous enough to actually make up a single percentile.

D&D is all about high risk/high reward. The riskier the career... the greater the reward.

Please do not continue that line of discussion. There are numerous points that are actually incorrect in that, but I really don't want to go over it. So I am going to ask instead that you not bring up gender differences.

visigani

2013-11-02, 04:34 PM

I suggest we end this particular line of discussion now before it devolves into some kind of gender war.

That is also, strangely enough, a programmed response... We're trained early on not to recognize it when men die for the benefit of others, not exactly.

We're trained to either accord it "great value", or to dismiss them anonymously... but we do not, under any circumstances, humanize them.

We avoid that at all costs.

So when I point out "D&D contributes to a culture that trains young men to engage in great risks for great rewards", even if that includes risking immense death and horror...

What is the Paladin... the perfect champion of good and rightousness... what is he immune to?

He's immune to disease, which would sully and weaken him, and he is immune to fear.

What is fear at its most basic? Self interest.

And we don't discuss these things very intentionally.

visigani

2013-11-02, 04:35 PM

Please do not continue that line of discussion. There are numerous points that are actually incorrect in that, but I really don't want to go over it. So I am going to ask instead that you not bring up gender differences.

What about this discussion are you so afraid of having? What makes this subject "off limits"?

If we were talking about how D&D is "sexist against women" would you be so quick to shut the discussion down?

Boci

2013-11-02, 04:38 PM

Coidzor

2013-11-02, 04:38 PM

What about this discussion are you so afraid of having? What makes this subject "off limits"?

If we were talking about how D&D is "sexist against women" would you be so quick to shut the discussion down?

Well, there's areas where it touches upon the rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?f=59&a=1), I suppose.

Considering that the last time that subject came up it went a little something like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=309646)...

Eldest

2013-11-02, 04:38 PM

What about this discussion are you so afraid of having? What makes this subject "off limits"?

If we were talking about how D&D is "sexist against women" would you be so quick to shut the discussion down?

Because I recognize several of those points as points made by men's rights activists, and I in general do not enjoy discussions involving their logic. It is faulty in several points, but looks from a distance cohesive. Combinded with your tendancy that I have observed so far for hyperbole and ad hominen attacks, I do not think the conversation would be enjoyable, nor would you either of us change our minds, and it would likely be upsetting to some people.

visigani

2013-11-02, 04:38 PM

You can't have men accounting for more than 100% of anything. Mathematically impossible.

According to the dept of labor, although men do not hold every single position in a given career, they are 99% plus in many.. typically the most dangerous.

For example:

87.4% of police and sheriff’s patrol officers are men. 96.6% of firefighters are men. 68.8% of Emergency Medical Technicians and Paramedics are men, so if it all goes tits up and you get hurt, there’s a small chance you might make it to a hospital.

I hope you don’t get too badly hurt, though. 65.7% of all surgeons are men.

Maybe you should just work from home? In the dark, mind you. With no running water.

Uh-oh. Looks like that might be a problem, too.

For all computer and mathematical occupations combined, 74.4% of the workforce is male. Computer network architects, who design and implement all our computer based communications systems are 91.9% men. And 94.2% of radio and telecommunications equipment installers and repair technicians are men.

The words aren't mine and you can find the entire article here (http://judgybitch.com/2013/09/17/what-would-happen-if-no-men-showed-up-for-work-today/).

Point being that D&D contributes to the culture that trains men to engage in that degree of self sacrifice and self destruction for the betterment of others.

That's something that should be discussed.

visigani

2013-11-02, 04:40 PM

No because the moderators have clarified that discussing sexism in the context of RPGs is permissible (but we should be careful), whilst the other thing flat out banned in the forum rules: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1

Wait, so it's acceptable to discuss sexism in rpgs but only so long as we do so within a Feminist accepted framework?

visigani

2013-11-02, 04:41 PM

Because I recognize several of those points as points made by men's rights activists, and I in general do not enjoy discussions involving their logic. It is faulty in several points, but looks from a distance cohesive. Combinded with your tendancy that I have observed so far for hyperbole and ad hominen attacks, I do not think the conversation would be enjoyable, nor would you either of us change our minds, and it would likely be upsetting to some people.

If you don't want to be a part of the discussion... don't be. No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to be a part of this thread.

Why do you want to silence those that say things you don't like?

Vedhin

2013-11-02, 04:42 PM

That's something that should be discussed.

Perhaps. But this forum is not the place where this discussion belongs.

visigani

2013-11-02, 04:43 PM

Perhaps. But this forum is not the place where this discussion belongs.

Then what forum does a discussion on sexism in rpgs belong?

Eldest

2013-11-02, 04:46 PM

Then what forum does a discussion on sexism in rpgs belong?

Discussion: How to Make an RPG/Game/Setting/Whatever which is Non-Sexist. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=309738)

Augmental

2013-11-02, 04:47 PM

Then what forum does a discussion on sexism in rpgs belong?

Maybe the general Roleplaying Games thread? Sexism in RPGs isn't limited to Dungeons and Dragons.

eggynack

2013-11-02, 04:50 PM

Then what forum does a discussion on sexism in rpgs belong?
Discussing sexism in RPG's is hypothetically fine, though it may belong in a new thread. When you bring real world statistics and politics into it, which you have, you're breaking a forum rule. Also, you're only barely attaching any of this to D&D. The only connecting factor you've cited is that adventurers in D&D incur a high risk for a high reward, which honestly just sounds like a characteristic of any sort of protagonist in a high fantasy setting, male or female.

Edit: Or an actiony setting. Most settings, really. Just about any narrative that has high stakes attached to it. Do dudes just get some sort of weird monopoly on anything with high stakes attached? Seems like bad logic.

visigani

2013-11-02, 04:53 PM

Discussion: How to Make an RPG/Game/Setting/Whatever which is Non-Sexist. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=309738)

And again, the discussion, even from the outset is from a purely feminist perspective.

It's impossible to have a discussion on sexism when the discussion is dominated by Feminists. It becomes feminist dogma, and when it stops being feminist dogma they work to shut the discussion down.

Like you're doing right now.

There's nothing wrong with using a forum about RPGs to discuss how RPGs fetishize violence against men and males in general and how it encourages young men to engage in acts of self destruction for the benefit of the group.

That's virtually the definition of "Good"... "Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others."

Lawful Good, "Crusader"
A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.

Chaotic Evil, "Destroyer"
A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do.

You find this sort of thing all over.

Eldest

2013-11-02, 04:56 PM

Like you're doing right now.

I am asking you not to so I don't get ****ing furious over your rhetoric.

Vedhin

2013-11-02, 04:59 PM

Lawful Good, "Crusader"
A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.

Actually, there's a reason for this one. For all the base classes released, the gender of the pronoun used is always the same as that of the iconic character. For example, Tordek is male, so Fighters get masculine pronouns throught D&D 3.5; And Alhandra the Paladin is female, so Paladins use feminine pronouns. As Paladin is about the same as Lawful Good, and Alhandra is given as an example of a Lawful Good character in the actual book, feminine pronouns are used.

visigani

2013-11-02, 05:05 PM

I am asking you not to so I don't get ****ing furious over your rhetoric.

So wait... I shouldn't say something because what? If the conversation troubles you so... put me on block... don't read this.... don't click on the thread.

But don't expect me to self silence.

This is an important topic and one that needs to be addressed. Real people are suffering real pain.

D&D turns the suffering, almost exclusively, of men into a game. That's a topic that should be discussed.

It might not be wholly and entirely men who suffer... but just about all the creatures you hack up with an ax are male.

eggynack

2013-11-02, 05:05 PM

Actually, there's a reason for this one. For all the base classes released, the gender of the pronoun used is always the same as that of the iconic character. For example, Tordek is male, so Fighters get masculine pronouns throught D&D 3.5; And Alhandra the Paladin is female, so Paladins use feminine pronouns. As Paladin is about the same as Lawful Good, and Alhandra is given as an example of a Lawful Good character in the actual book, feminine pronouns are used.
Also, males get neutral and chaotic good, while females get neutral evil. So, males get the same amount of good and evil, and the same is true for females. I don't see the issue. Females get more neutral on the good/evil axis, but that just makes it as even of a split as you can get between genders.

Malak'ai

2013-11-02, 05:05 PM

That is also, strangely enough, a programmed response... We're trained early on not to recognize it when men die for the benefit of others, not exactly.

We're trained to either accord it "great value", or to dismiss them anonymously... but we do not, under any circumstances, humanize them.

We avoid that at all costs.

So when I point out "D&D contributes to a culture that trains young men to engage in great risks for great rewards", even if that includes risking immense death and horror...

What is the Paladin... the perfect champion of good and rightousness... what is he immune to?

He's immune to disease, which would sully and weaken him, and he is immune to fear.

What is fear at its most basic? Self interest.

And we don't discuss these things very intentionally.

I didn't say that to "tow a line" or because it's been "programmed" into me. I said it because that topic of conversation, especially the way you brought it up, is not appropriate for the 3.0/3.5 Sub-Forum.
If you want to talk about it, make a new thread in the general Roleplay section, or as others have points out, the numerous threads already dedicated to Sexism in RPG's.

I would also like to say that you do not, and I mean DO NOT tell me what I've been "trained" to do with regards to the first few sentences of your post.
Now I personally don't give a flying donkey turd what your beliefs on the topic are but if we were having this conversation in real life I'd engage in it quite happily until you resorted to your usual childish name calling and talking round and round in circles, but since this is an internet forum, and one that I actually enjoy being a member of, I follow the rules as best I can.