Warforged armor, unarmed strikes, and swordsages

[lytokk]

Couple of questions here, regarding warforged and all their construct glory.

Medium sized warforged for this discussion

First off, a warforged unarmed strike, unmodified, is treated as any other medium creatures unarmed strike right? AoO, 1d3 damage, subdual right? Ignoring the slam attack that is. Or does the slam override the unarmed strike? My understanding is you don't get additional slams for an increase in BAB, unlike unarmed strikes. Does the fact the warforged is more metal change their unarmed strike to be similar to that of someone wearing a gauntlet, so 1d3 but it would be lethal and not subdual, but still provoke the AoO. Improved unarmed strike would still be required to remove the attack of opportunity, as is normal with any non-monk character, correct?

It was my understanding that a standard warforged wouldn't benefit from monk levels due to the standard composite plating not being a natural armor bonus, but an armor bonus and being considered to be wearing light armor. This may have been erratted, since it seems to be popular opinions based off of different searches that seem to contradict my own thoughts. But I just want to check to make sure that a forged can take monk levels with no penalty with just the composite plating, and that the unarmored body feat is truly worthless.

A swordsage is proficient with light armor, which is fine for a warforged with the Mithril Body feat. At the end of the swordsage entry, it states that for a monklike swordsage, you can drop the Light Armor proficiency and pick up the unarmed damage progression of monks. Warforged are instantly proficient with their own body, so does a Mithril Body warforged who took this progression instead of the normal swordsage still get to keep the unarmed damage progression, because its not explicitly stated anywhere that a swordsage would lose the progression for wearing armor. Would I also still have to take improved unarmed strike to avoid the AoO since this is also not stated, all it states is getting the unarmed strike progression of a monk.

Thanks for the help.

All of this is for a concept I'm working on and I'd like to make sure I've got it set up right and avoid taking levels and feats I don't have to.

[Red Fel]

Couple of questions here, regarding warforged and all their construct glory.

Medium sized warforged for this discussion

First off, a warforged unarmed strike, unmodified, is treated as any other medium creatures unarmed strike right? AoO, 1d3 damage, subdual right? Ignoring the slam attack that is. Or does the slam override the unarmed strike? My understanding is you don't get additional slams for an increase in BAB, unlike unarmed strikes. Does the fact the warforged is more metal change their unarmed strike to be similar to that of someone wearing a gauntlet, so 1d3 but it would be lethal and not subdual, but still provoke the AoO. Improved unarmed strike would still be required to remove the attack of opportunity, as is normal with any non-monk character, correct?

Correct on the Unarmed Strike. It deals 1d3 non-lethal and provokes AoOs.

Slam is a type of natural weapon that deals bludgeoning. As a natural weapon, it does not provoke AoOs. As I recall, when making a full attack, you can use your unarmed iteratives followed by one slam at -5, or you can just use your slam. (Correct me if I am mistaken.)

IUS removes the AoO and lets you use lethal or non-lethal at your option. Note that a slam, as a natural weapon, is not an unarmed strike.


It was my understanding that a standard warforged wouldn't benefit from monk levels due to the standard composite plating not being a natural armor bonus, but an armor bonus and being considered to be wearing light armor. This may have been erratted, since it seems to be popular opinions based off of different searches that seem to contradict my own thoughts. But I just want to check to make sure that a forged can take monk levels with no penalty with just the composite plating, and that the unarmored body feat is truly worthless.

Unarmored Body is not truly worthless. There are reasons you might not want to have Composite Plating, usually involving wanting to have something else in your armor/robe slot. (That said? Pretty close to worthless.)

I recall other discussions which have led to the conclusion that Composite Plating is considered to be armor for Monk and Swordsage purposes, as well as taking up the body slot for Incarnum purposes. I think this makes Warforged a poor choice for Monk without taking Unarmored Body. (Again, correct me if I'm mistaken.)


A swordsage is proficient with light armor, which is fine for a warforged with the Mithril Body feat. At the end of the swordsage entry, it states that for a monklike swordsage, you can drop the Light Armor proficiency and pick up the unarmed damage progression of monks. Warforged are instantly proficient with their own body, so does a Mithril Body warforged who took this progression instead of the normal swordsage still get to keep the unarmed damage progression, because its not explicitly stated anywhere that a swordsage would lose the progression for wearing armor. Would I also still have to take improved unarmed strike to avoid the AoO since this is also not stated, all it states is getting the unarmed strike progression of a monk.

This depends on whether you read "lose light armor proficiency" to include "lose the light armor clause to Swordsage monk-like abilities". If you argue that they merely lose the proficiency, then yes, Mithral Body lets you keep those Swordsage features. If you argue, however, that it means you make the class overall more monk-like, then I would hold you need to remove the light armor clause entirely, and thus that Swordsage Monk-like-AC becomes ineffective, etc.

Similarly, the general consensus on the unarmed Swordsage variant is that "Monk's unarmed strike progression" includes receiving IUS as a free feat, and using the Monk unarmed damage table. There are disputes as to whether other feats or features are included.

The thing to remember is that the Unarmed Swordsage is not a proper, statted variant; it is a poorly written "adaptation," which lacks proper stats and explanation, and is therefore subject to DM approval and oversight. Your DM may be more generous or less generous.


Thanks for the help.

All of this is for a concept I'm working on and I'd like to make sure I've got it set up right and avoid taking levels and feats I don't have to.

If your goal is "unarmed Warforged fighter," you probably won't get as much use out of your Slam as you might think. On the other hand, Snap Kick can be a good use of your time. I would definitely discuss with your DM what he believes Unarmed Swordsage entails, because I happen to think it's a superior option to regular Monk.

[lytokk]

Unfortunately, I am the DM, with the best grasp of rules for the system. We've never used ToB, and this would be the first dip into it for our entire group, which is why I'm trying to get an understanding of it from people who have played with it a lot more.

I wasn't thinking of using the slam attack in melee unless for some reason I needed to.

Basically, if the Unarmed swordsage variant doesn't work, I'd end up taking a few levels in fighter to get unarmed and then superior unarmed strike. If it does work, it lets me ignore the fighter levels for more swordsage or perhaps improved trip, as most of the Setting Sun maneuvers use trip attacks.

[lytokk]

in addition, regarding the Improved Trip Feat


from the SRD

Improved Trip [General]

Prerequisites

Int 13, Combat Expertise.

Benefit

You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent.

If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.


If I have this feat, and use a setting sun maneuver to trip a foe, do I still get the extra attack?

[Darrin]

I wasn't thinking of using the slam attack in melee unless for some reason I needed to.


If your primary attack is unarmed strike, then yes, you'll want to use your slam as a secondary attack (-5 attack penalty, 1/2 Str bonus). If you want to mix manufactured weapons with the slam, then you'll need to clarify if the slam attack uses one arm, two arms, or no arms. The RAW on this is extremely murky... the best evidence I can find on all the different ways you can pick up a slam similar to a warforged's is you have to have at least one arm free to slam, but trying to explain why would be long, pointless, and frustratingly vague.

For simplicity and ease of play, I generally recommend what I call the "One Slam Good, Two Slams Bad" rule of thumb: if a creature has a single slam, then that slam doesn't involve the arms, and it may wield manufactured weapons and still keep the slam as a secondary attack. If a creature has two slam attacks as part of its full attack routine, then each slam represents an arm and you lose that arm if it's busy doing something else, like wielding weapons. This means Warforged count as "One Slam" creatures and keep it when wielding two-handed weapons (although this doesn't really match their stat block in MMIII). This may not be what the designers intended, but it's easy to remember without getting bogged down into aggravating arguments about the designers' intent.



Basically, if the Unarmed swordsage variant doesn't work, I'd end up taking a few levels in fighter to get unarmed and then superior unarmed strike.

There are a couple other options that involve a more monk-like unarmed strike:

Battle Dancer (Dragon Compendium): Improved Unarmed Strike and unarmed damage progression as a monk, but full BAB and their "AC Bonus" is Cha-based instead of Wis-based.

Shou Disciple (Unapproachable East): Unarmed damage similar to a monk, and may in fact give you "Flurry of Blows" without actually having to take any levels of Monk. Unfortunately, although this book was given an official 3.5 update, no one bothered to explain how to adapt Shou Disciple to 3.5, which still assumes that monks still have a separate Unarmed BAB. Ruling that "this PrC grants the Flurry of Blows ability" is probably the easiest way to adapt it to 3.5. Stick with it for 3 levels, and you get "Martial Flurry", which allows Flurry with any light weapon, manufactured or otherwise. Get all 5 levels, and you can Martial Flurry any melee weapon you can get your hands on.

Fist of the Forest (Complete Champion): 3-level PrC that gives you 1d8 and then 1d10 unarmed damage, but the... well, the wording is wonky, and may not mean what the designers thought it was supposed to mean. It's really not clear how these damage increases interact with other things like size increases and Improved Natural Attack. Some DMs interpret the intent as, if you already have 1d8 or 1d10 unarmed damage from a different class, then increase your unarmed damage up by one or two steps.

City Brawler Barbarian (Dragon Magazine #349): This is an Alternate Class Feature (ACF) package that swaps out proficiecy with martial weapons, medium armor, and heavy armor for Improved Unarmed Strike, TWF (Unarmed Strike only), and reducing the improvised weapon penalty to -2. Rage, Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge, and Trap Sense are still there, so you can stack on additional ACFs, such as Spirit Lion Totem, Whirling Frenzy, Wolf Totem, or Trapkiller.



If I have this feat, and use a setting sun maneuver to trip a foe, do I still get the extra attack?

Mighty Throw says, "Resolve the throw as a trip attempt", so I'd say yes, you get +4 from Improved Trip and you get the extra attack if successful. You just have to be careful not to throw your opponent outside of your threatened area, so you can still attack him when he lands.

[Big Fau]

Just a note, Composite Plating does not interfere with a Warforged Monk's abilities. The body feats (save for Unarmored) do, but basic Composite doesn't.

And as long as the plating isn't enchanted it doesn't mess with Incarnum at all (and it can be enchanted in a way that it wouldn't ever).

[Red Fel]

Just a note, Composite Plating does not interfere with a Warforged Monk's abilities. The body feats (save for Unarmored) do, but basic Composite doesn't.

And as long as the plating isn't enchanted it doesn't mess with Incarnum at all (and it can be enchanted in a way that it wouldn't ever).

I'm not sure I agree. Composite Plating is treated like Light Armor, which would interfere with a Monk's abilities (which prohibit the use of armor).

As to soulmelds, in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=306446), there was a fairly extensive debate over whether Composite Plating took up the slot. Additionally, the text on Page 51 of MoI notes that depending on the form the soulmeld takes when bound, it may preclude the use of any item, magic or mundane. The specific language:


For example, if you bind a crystal helm to your crown chakra, the helm settles snugly around your head. It physically prevents you from also wearing another helm (magic or mundane), as well as magically preventing you from gaining the benefit of a magic helm.

Admittedly, nothing would stop you from shaping the soulmeld over Composite Plating. But any soulmeld that is described as fitting over your body when bound would prevent you from using another piece of equipment in that slot, magic or mundane, including un-enchanted Composite Plating. Admittedly, this isn't a problem, as binding a soulmeld to the Soul (body) chakra requires either near-total investment in Incarnate or an epic feat. But it's worth noting.

[Cyphrus]

I don't know if this would help the case, but it seems you aren't treated as if you are wearing light armor, It says Similar, not Is. I, personally, would take and edge to it not being light armor.

Here's the quote from the EbCS Book:

Composite Plating: The plating used to build a warforged provides a +2 armor bonus. This plating is not natural armor and does not stack with other
effects that give an armor bonus (other than natural armor).

This composite plating occupies the same space on the body as a suit of armor or a robe, and thus a warforged cannot wear armor or magic robes.
Warforged can be enchanted just as armor can be. The character must be present for the entire time it takes to enchant him.

Composite plating also provides a warforged with a 5% arcane spell failure chance, similar to the penalty for wearing light armor. Any class ability that allows a warforged to ignore the arcane spell failure chance for light armor lets him ignore this penalty as well.

[lytokk]

the concept is more than just an unarmed fighter. I really like those setting sun maneuvers for just throwing enemies around the battlefield, sort of how I thought monk should look like. I wasn't planning on taking any 2 weapon fighting feats, since the whole intention would be to trip/knockdown/throw enemies into areas where the rest of the party can mop them up. Basically, my guy is a battlefield control character who can be removed from the party without desperately affecting their combat potential, as this will be a character I run while other players take turns running the game.

Granted, this is only 1 of the 4 or 5 ideas I have. Once I finish them all I'll post the designs to the forum for critiquing.

[Big Fau]

I'm not sure I agree. Composite Plating is treated like Light Armor, which would interfere with a Monk's abilities (which prohibit the use of armor).

It isn't my opinion, it's a ruling from WotC.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'd say it's not armor. Are Bracers of Armor armor? They take up an item slot, they give an armor bonus. But they're not armor.

[lytokk]

It isn't my opinion, it's a ruling from WotC.

could you please cite this ruling? I don't want to be a pest, but I want to do everything as close to as written as possible. At least with this character, since no one in the group has seen a swordsage, and if its an official ruling, I may just drop the mithril body to avoid the possible problem of making an assumption with unarmed swordsage. Would lose 3 to AC, but if it makes a pill easier to swallow all the better.

[Hiro Protagonest]

could you please cite this ruling? I don't want to be a pest, but I want to do everything as close to as written as possible. At least with this character, since no one in the group has seen a swordsage, and if its an official ruling, I may just drop the mithril body to avoid the possible problem of making an assumption with unarmed swordsage. Would lose 3 to AC, but if it makes a pill easier to swallow all the better.

I'm pretty sure Mithral Body states that it acts like light armor, while the standard warforged body doesn't.

[lytokk]

I know mithral body is light armor, and we had always, at my table, assumed the composite plating to also be light armor, eliminating monk and druid abilities. Monk for wearing armor, druid for it being metal armor. It seems to me that it being not armor, a warforged druid should be able to exist without having to take the ironwood body feat.

[Honjuden]

I'm not sure as to the specifics of RAW as far as whether composite plating counts as armor or not, but the fact that there is a feat called "Unarmored Body" might say something as far as RAI is concerned.

[Big Fau]

could you please cite this ruling? I don't want to be a pest, but I want to do everything as close to as written as possible. At least with this character, since no one in the group has seen a swordsage, and if its an official ruling, I may just drop the mithril body to avoid the possible problem of making an assumption with unarmed swordsage. Would lose 3 to AC, but if it makes a pill easier to swallow all the better.

Races of Eberron, page 23 from what Google tells me.

[danzibr]

Races of Eberron, page 23 from what Google tells me.
I'm afb but I'm certain it doesn't interfere with monk abilities.

As for Incarnum... Dunno.

[lytokk]

Races of Eberron, page 23 from what Google tells me.

yup, right there. spelled out flat that it doens't interfere with monk abilities.

*edit it also does not interfere with druid abilities either. the composite plating that is. Ironwood body still works with druid, but mithral and adamantine don't. doesn't say anything about the traceries, but I'd imagine it wouldn't interfere. Though a cold iron tracery druid would be a little self hating.

[Red Fel]

yup, right there. spelled out flat that it doens't interfere with monk abilities.

*edit it also does not interfere with druid abilities either. the composite plating that is. Ironwood body still works with druid, but mithral and adamantine don't. doesn't say anything about the traceries, but I'd imagine it wouldn't interfere. Though a cold iron tracery druid would be a little self hating.

Welp, my mistake. Good call, Fau.

[Big Fau]

Welp, my mistake. Good call, Fau.

Warforged are one of my favorite races, so I tried my best to learn as much as I could about them.

[Marnath]

I know mithral body is light armor, and we had always, at my table, assumed the composite plating to also be light armor, eliminating monk and druid abilities. Monk for wearing armor, druid for it being metal armor. It seems to me that it being not armor, a warforged druid should be able to exist without having to take the ironwood body feat.

Composite plating mostly isn't metal. If you look closely at the sample warforged in the book, he's actually mostly made of stone with just a little metal around the edges of the plates.

[Adverb]

Mighty Throw says, "Resolve the throw as a trip attempt", so I'd say yes, you get +4 from Improved Trip and you get the extra attack if successful. You just have to be careful not to throw your opponent outside of your threatened area, so you can still attack him when he lands.

I like resolving the attack before, though this is mostly because Mighty Throw then becomes Drop Kick.