Non-Teleporting Teleporting - 3.5

[Toliudar]

I once again summon the rules mastery of the forum to my aid!

I have a high level psion PC, currently engaged with a gishy type, possibly epic. The gish has popped in and out a couple times now, ignoring the Divert Teleport that I have up. The DM has clarified that it's not that he's saving vs the effect, but that what he's doing isn't 'teleportation'. This is Faerun, if it matters.

It's certainly possible that the DM has simply fiat-ed an ability, but he's pretty rules-savvy, and I'm curious now.

What powers/items/class abilities allow you to move around in space without having the 'Teleportation' designation? Any suggestions?

[Urpriest]

Depending on how your DM views things, it might be from the Shadow Jaunt line of maneuvers.

[AttilaTheGeek]

He could be using Time Stop and just walking. It's highly unlikely, but if he's epic then he almost definitely has 9th-level spells.

Edit to add: If he's moving in response to your attacks, then he could just be reading a swift action for a Quickened Time Stop. Even more unlikely, but I thought I'd throw it out for completeness' sake.

[Chronos]

He could also be using some form of planar travel which doesn't pass through the astral plane, or he could be still there and just making himself seen/unseen somehow.

[Slipperychicken]

I believe Shadow Jaunt works as dimension door.

Is the enemy using Time Hop? That could let him "pop in and out".

Perhaps he's becoming ethereal/incorporeal?

[Flickerdart]

Is he a psionic or arcane gish? If arcane, he could be a Swiftblade using Innervated Speed. If he's psionic, Temporal Acceleration is a possibility

[Toliudar]

I think that he's an arcane gish, although divine is not outside the realm of possibility. Because one of his teleports took him from inside a windowless building to its roof, a roof that doesn't have any doors to the interior, shadow jaunt seems unlikely. Time stop and dimensional travel are definite possibilities, though, and I hadn't thought of them. Thanks!

[Psyren]

Neither wish nor shadow walk are teleportation effects for starters.

[Emperor Tippy]

The ways to fake "teleportation" are legion.

As has been said, Time Stop/ Temporal Acceleration is one of them.

Then you have Etheralness/Etheral Jaunt.

Then there is the Shadow Jaunt line of maneuvers.

And the Shadow Walk spell.

Then there is Wish/Miracle/Reality Revision.

Then there is a Selective Shaped Antimagic field that only covers his square. The AMF suppresses the Divert Teleport for that square and he can then teleport out, and at Epic this could be a Permanent Emanation.

Honestly, with the little bit of information that you provided this could be any of a hundred or more things that all appear to be "teleportation" but would bypass Divert Teleport.

[AmberVael]

The major 'not teleportation' teleport spell that I am aware of is the incredibly awesome Master Earth. Druid spell, level 7, can be found on page 139 of the spell compendium. It's basically Greater Teleport, except it isn't teleportation, and can only be used on the material plane.

[watchwood]

Is he just turning invisible and walking?

[Toliudar]

Fair enough. A few more details:

He started the combat by simply appearing next to us on a roof, somehow standing on an incorporeal creature despite not being incorporeal himself. He's got a blinking effect active, but the roof is 10' thick, so I don't think that that alone would permit him to pop in and out.

The second instantaneous movement may have happened as an immediate action or contingent action triggered by HP loss in battle.

We have blindsight, mindsight and touchsight active, so just turning invisible is unlikely to have cut it, and unless there's a time stop involved, we'd have picked up most other forms of 'move into place quickly' as well.

Master Earth is...kind of brilliant, actually. He hasn't otherwise done anything druid-y, but it's a definite possibility. Thanks!

Do the Shadow X maneuvers count as teleportation?

[AmberVael]

The Shadow X maneuvers do actually have the teleportation tag, so they wouldn't work. Thinking that they don't is a common misconception- I'm not sure where it got started.

Your description of immediate makes me wonder... what about Abrupt Jaunt? The description of it says you teleport, but technically it never says it has the teleport descriptor. Admittedly, that is a very twisted RAW reading.

[Slipperychicken]

Alternatively, the GM might have simply read the rules wrong, or is willfully ignoring the rules.


I believe Abrupt Jaunt has text about being a teleportation effect, or working like dimension door?

[ArcturusV]

... who makes 10' thick roofs with no access? :smallconfused: Not sure if that's something where it's a misconception and it actually isn't, which might be important, or if it's something where it actually is and your DM just doesn't really know how things are built? Likely the latter I admit as most DnD buildings and locales I see have pretty illogical, downright silly architecture.

[Emperor Tippy]

I would be doing it with a Persistent Greater Blink combined with Mind Blank. That would defeat everything you listed unless you have Transdimensional Touchsight.

It also allows him to follow and spy on you with near total impunity and then drop in at the idea moment to ambush you.

Combine with either a Telepathic Bond with something that readies an action to pull him out of combat when told to do so over the bond or a Craft Contingent Wish set to pull him out if he is in trouble he could do everything you have listed.

[Demonic_Spoon]

I would be doing it with a Persistent Greater Blink combined with Mind Blank. That would defeat everything you listed unless you have Transdimensional Touchsight.

Since when does either of those two stop mindsight?

[Emperor Tippy]

Since when does either of those two stop mindsight?
Mind Sight is not multiplanar.

You can be on the ethereal plane five feet from someone with Mindsight and they won't even get a twitch.

Greater Blink lets you, potentially, hang out on the Ethereal Plane for its entire duration (you choose when you blink back). With it Persisted you can basically flip between the Material and Ethereal planes as a free action all day long.

Mind Blank is to beat See Invisibility (which everyone should have made Permanent pretty much as soon as possible) and True Seeing.

[Urpriest]

Greater Blink lets you, potentially, hang out on the Ethereal Plane for its entire duration (you choose when you blink back). With it Persisted you can basically flip between the Material and Ethereal planes as a free action all day long.


That's not how Greater Blink works. You control your timing, but your timing must still result in "blinking", that is, you can't increase the time spent on any given plane beyond the characteristic timescales of the Blink spell. Essentially, the Blink spell has the following text:


You “blink” back and forth between the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane. You look as though you’re winking in and out of reality very quickly and at random.

Greater Blink replaces the "at random" part, leading to the following:


You “blink” back and forth between the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane. You look as though you’re winking in and out of reality very quickly and under your control.

Your blinking must still be rapid, however, otherwise it wouldn't lead to the caveats in the text. In particular, ending your movement in a solid object shouldn't be a problem if you could remain ethereal for longer than 6 seconds.

From another, RAI-motivated perspective: if Greater Blink functioned as you believe it does, it would be better than Ethereal Jaunt in every conceivable way. WotC doesn't usually screw up that badly.

[Emperor Tippy]

That's not how Greater Blink works. You control your timing, but your timing must still result in "blinking", that is, you can't increase the time spent on any given plane beyond the characteristic timescales of the Blink spell. Essentially, the Blink spell has the following text:



Greater Blink replaces the "at random" part, leading to the following:



Your blinking must still be rapid, however, otherwise it wouldn't lead to the caveats in the text. In particular, ending your movement in a solid object shouldn't be a problem if you could remain ethereal for longer than 6 seconds.
None of this is supported by the RAW. It might be intended but its not supported. Greater Blink says you control the timing of your blinking and has no minimum requirement on how often you must blink. You get to choose when you are material and when you are ethereal.

WotC might have intended that you can't use it as a means to hang out in the Ethereal plane for the duration of the spell but the rules don't stop you from doing so.

From another, RAI-motivated perspective: if Greater Blink functioned as you believe it does, it would be better than Ethereal Jaunt in every conceivable way. WotC doesn't usually screw up that badly.
WotC screws up quite badly all the time.

[Icewraith]

There's always the possibility of dealing with an epic illusion that specifically defeats True Sight, in epic. Usually the DM will be making lots of extra rolls though (or asking you for random will saves, but this is even more of a giveaway).

[Telonius]

There's always the possibility of dealing with an epic illusion that specifically defeats True Sight, in epic. Usually the DM will be making lots of extra rolls though (or asking you for random will saves, but this is even more of a giveaway).

Illusion was my first thought as well. Are you sure you were actually dealing with a real thing when he "popped in and out?"

[Urpriest]

None of this is supported by the RAW. It might be intended but its not supported. Greater Blink says you control the timing of your blinking and has no minimum requirement on how often you must blink. You get to choose when you are material and when you are ethereal.


That word is the key sticking point. What does it mean to "blink"?

Greater Blink says you control the timing of your "blinking". What does that mean?

The blink spell tells us what it means:


You “blink” back and forth between the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane.

That, and the specific effects specified later in the "blink" spell, is the only definition of what it means to "blink". You'll note that to "blink" is by necessity a motion back and forth between the two planes. You can't stay on either one for any length of time whatsoever, or you wouldn't be blinking.

Basically, think of a creature normally without eyelids developing a spell that lets it blink, and a later spell that says that it may control the timing of its blinking. It still must abide by the definition of the word "blink". It cannot close its eyes for an extended period of time, because that would not be "blinking".

[Snowbluff]

Depending on how your DM views things, it might be from the Shadow Jaunt line of maneuvers.

Which would be entirely incorrect, since the maneuvers are [Teleportation]. :smallyuk:

[Urpriest]

Which would be entirely incorrect, since the maneuvers are [Teleportation]. :smallyuk:

Hence "depending on how your DM views things" :smallwink:

Suffice it to say we may be dealing with a rules error.

[Boci]

The Shadow X maneuvers do actually have the teleportation tag, so they wouldn't work. Thinking that they don't is a common misconception- I'm not sure where it got started.

It might have stemmed from the fact that it does lack the Su tag.

[Big Fau]

A Shadowcaster or Binder using the Flicker mystery could pull this off.

[aeauseth]

Greater Blink says you control the timing of your "blinking". What does that mean?

If you read the Greater Blink (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-arcane--55/blink-greater--536/) spell carefully you will see that:


When moving through solid objects, you do not risk materializing inside one unless you actually end your movement there, in which case you materialize and are shunted off to the nearest open space

It seems clear that you can't end your turn inside of a solid object. This would suggest you must be on the material plane for at least some small amount of time during your turn. This would also suggest you can only remain ethereal for just under 6 seconds (maximum) at any one time. This would similarly suggest you can only remain on the material plane for just under 6 seconds (maximum), effectively spending at least a small amount of time in both planes during the 6 second round.

With a high base speed and greater blink you could simulate a localized swift teleport at will ability. Although if he isn't teleporting every round then it probably isn't a greater blink ability.

[Urpriest]

If you read the Greater Blink (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-arcane--55/blink-greater--536/) spell carefully you will see that:



It seems clear that you can't end your turn inside of a solid object. This would suggest you must be on the material plane for at least some small amount of time during your turn. This would also suggest you can only remain ethereal for just under 6 seconds (maximum) at any one time. This would similarly suggest you can only remain on the material plan for just under 6 seconds (maximum), effectively spending at least a small amount of time in both planes during the 6 second round.

With a high base speed and greater blink you could simulate a localized swift teleport at will ability. Although if he isn't teleporting every round then it probably isn't a greater blink ability.

Yes, I think this is a fair interpretation. There doesn't seem to be any way to both remain multiple rounds on one plane and have those sentences be true.

[Emperor Tippy]

Except its just that, an interpretation that isn't actually what the rules say.

Nothing in Greater Blink states that you must travel between the two planes at least once per round or that you must Blink.

[SinsI]

Is he even there? Something like Improved Invis + Greater Image...

[Urpriest]

Except its just that, an interpretation that isn't actually what the rules say.

Nothing in Greater Blink states that you must travel between the two planes at least once per round or that you must Blink.

Nothing in the text allows you to travel between the two planes at all. You can blink between the two planes, but you are still just as incapable of traveling between them as you were before casting the spell.

[Emperor Tippy]

Nothing in the text allows you to travel between the two planes at all. You can blink between the two planes, but you are still just as incapable of traveling between them as you were before casting the spell.

The spell explicitly makes you ethereal.

"Since you spend about half your time on the Ethereal Plane, you can see and even attack ethereal creatures. You interact with ethereal creatures roughly the same way you interact with material ones. "

That is a direct quote from Blink. Blink flips you back and forth between the Ethereal and Material planes randomly. Greater Blink removes the "randomly" part and puts that blinking under your control.

[Urpriest]

The spell explicitly makes you ethereal.

"Since you spend about half your time on the Ethereal Plane, you can see and even attack ethereal creatures. You interact with ethereal creatures roughly the same way you interact with material ones. "

That is a direct quote from Blink. Blink flips you back and forth between the Ethereal and Material planes randomly. Greater Blink removes the "randomly" part and puts that blinking under your control.

You spend time on the Ethereal Plane in that you are blinking. You don't travel to the Ethereal Plane at any point. Instead, you merely spend time on both planes.

[Icewraith]

You have to be somewhere in order to spend time there. If you're not on the ethereal plane when you're blinking how are things missing you half the time? You're certainly not on the prime material otherwise you wouldn't have that miss chance since you'd be there 100% of the time.

[Emperor Tippy]

You spend time on the Ethereal Plane in that you are blinking. You don't travel to the Ethereal Plane at any point. Instead, you merely spend time on both planes.


since you’re ethereal

While on the Ethereal Plane, a creature is called ethereal.

Conceded on that point?

[Urpriest]

Conceded on that point?

You are on the Ethereal Plane, and ethereal.

The difference I'm trying to draw is between being on the Ethereal Plane as a result of travel (which allows you to utilize its full planar traits, as a place) and being on the Ethereal Plane as a result of Blinking (which has a specific set of mechanical consequences, and doesn't allow you to treat the Ethereal Plane as a separate place).

These might naively seem to be the same, but they cannot be the same. If they were, then some of the mechanical consequences (in particular, the need to end your movement in an open space) simply wouldn't be the case. The only reasonable conclusion is that the game differentiates between those two different means of access to the Ethereal Plane.

To put it another way, you have three options:

1. Ignore the statement that if you end your movement in a solid space you inevitably materialize inside it. This would mean ignoring part of the RAW.

2. Take the rules of Blink and Greater Blink as exceptions to the usual rules for being on the Ethereal Plane (or alternately, interpret the two ways of getting to the Ethereal Plane as causing different results). Then, for example, the text of Blink still applies except when Greater Blink contradicts it, so physical attacks against you still suffer a 50% miss chance no matter how you exercise your control over your Blinking. Essentially, at any given time you are "blinking", you just "have control" over when you blink, which in practice means exactly what the spell says it does and no more.

3. Keep the statement about materializing at the end of movement, but make it the only nontrivial consequence of blinking, so that it otherwise functions as true travel to the ethereal plane. This seems completely arbitrary, and treats clauses explicitly in the spell differently from those grandfathered in via reference. Is this the position you're taking?

[Emperor Tippy]

You are on the Ethereal Plane, and ethereal.

The difference I'm trying to draw is between being on the Ethereal Plane as a result of travel (which allows you to utilize its full planar traits, as a place) and being on the Ethereal Plane as a result of Blinking (which has a specific set of mechanical consequences, and doesn't allow you to treat the Ethereal Plane as a separate place).
You are trying to draw a conclusion that isn't just not rules supported but actively and directly contradicted by the rules as written.


These might naively seem to be the same, but they cannot be the same. If they were, then some of the mechanical consequences (in particular, the need to end your movement in an open space) simply wouldn't be the case. The only reasonable conclusion is that the game differentiates between those two different means of access to the Ethereal Plane.
No, the rules conclusion is that in this specific case you can't end your movement inside an object. You are still ethereal, just with that singular added rule.


To put it another way, you have three options:

1. Ignore the statement that if you end your movement in a solid space you inevitably materialize inside it. This would mean ignoring part of the RAW.
And has no support. There is no remotely sane way to get this reading out of Greater Blink.


2. Take the rules of Blink and Greater Blink as exceptions to the usual rules for being on the Ethereal Plane (or alternately, interpret the two ways of getting to the Ethereal Plane as causing different results). Then, for example, the text of Blink still applies except when Greater Blink contradicts it, so physical attacks against you still suffer a 50% miss chance no matter how you exercise your control over your Blinking. Essentially, at any given time you are "blinking", you just "have control" over when you blink, which in practice means exactly what the spell says it does and no more.
This again is not rules supported. All that Blink and Greater Blink do is add a caveat to the general rules about being ethereal (that you can't end movement inside objects). Nothing else.


3. Keep the statement about materializing at the end of movement, but make it the only nontrivial consequence of blinking, so that it otherwise functions as true travel to the ethereal plane. This seems completely arbitrary, and treats clauses explicitly in the spell differently from those grandfathered in via reference. Is this the position you're taking?

It is, per the rules as written, true travel to the Ethereal Plane.

I'm sorry but Blink says: "Since you spend about half your time on the Ethereal Plane,". It flat out, directly and with no room for re-interpreting, that you are on the Ethereal Plane.

That has direct mechanical effects that Blink (with the exception of ending movement inside objects) does not change, remove, or alter.

Greater Blink says "This spell functions like blink, except you have control over the timing of your "blinking" back and forth between the Ethereal Plane and the Material Plane."

Again Greater Blink puts no limitation on how long you can remain on the Ethereal Plane, or how often you have to move between the two planes.

To get the reading that you are trying to get out of Greater Blink requires pretty much making up rules whole cloth. The only bit of rules support your position has, at all, is the line about ending movement inside objects.

[GlorinSteampike]

You are on the Ethereal Plane, and ethereal.
To put it another way, you have three options:

1. Ignore the statement that if you end your movement in a solid space you inevitably materialize inside it. This would mean ignoring part of the RAW.



Except the rules for Greater Blink state you can control your "blinking" and the only time you are actually said to be forced to materialize is when you end your turn in a solid object. By RAW if you don't end your turn in a solid object, you don't have to materialize. By RAW if you do end your turn in a solid object, you materialize. Thats what the RAW of it is. It says you have control over the timing of the "blinks" but doesn't give a duration of the blinks. The only possible clause is that because it functions like Blink you have to spend equal time on both planes by RAW.

[Crake]

I'm sorry but Blink says: "Since you spend about half your time on the Ethereal Plane,". It flat out, directly and with no room for re-interpreting, that you are on the Ethereal Plane.

That has direct mechanical effects that Blink (with the exception of ending movement inside objects) does not change, remove, or alter.

Greater Blink says "This spell functions like blink, except you have control over the timing of your "blinking" back and forth between the Ethereal Plane and the Material Plane."

Again Greater Blink puts no limitation on how long you can remain on the Ethereal Plane, or how often you have to move between the two planes.

I think the very fact that Greater Blink doesn't say anything about how much of your time you spend on the material/ethereal plane means it uses Blink's rules on the matter. Thus you'd spend about half your time on the material and half on the ethereal, but you'd have enough control on when the blinks occur to avoid random chance on things like attacks and spells. Control on timing doesn't mean complete control, if a blink needs to occur once every 6 seconds at the least, you can control when it happens in that 6 seconds, but not if it occurs.

Edit: As for the topic itself, ask your DM to describe what occurs in more detail. For example, when I pitted my part against a swiftblade with innervated speed, I described the movement happening during the timestop being accompanied by a rush of wind as air rushed to occupy the space the NPC moved through.

[Emperor Tippy]

I think the very fact that Greater Blink doesn't say anything about how much of your time you spend on the material/ethereal plane means it uses Blink's rules on the matter. Thus you'd spend about half your time on the material and half on the ethereal, but you'd have enough control on when the blinks occur to avoid random chance on things like attacks and spells. Control on timing doesn't mean complete control, if a blink needs to occur once every 6 seconds at the least, you can control when it happens in that 6 seconds, but not if it occurs.
The rules don't support that though. It's a fine house rule but that is what it is.

[Captnq]

Players. So easily sent on wild goose chases.

Divert Teleport
Saving Throw: Will negates (foils diversion)
Power Resistance: Yes (foils diversion)

Now, if Magic Resistance = Power Resistance (Depends on your campaign), there are at least two, maybe three ways he can ignore your Power:
Will Save, SR, and PR.

You are way over thinking this.

And as a DM, I would TOTALLY use this opportunity to mess with you SO bad. "Why yes, I did figure out a way to outsmart your little power. Wouldn't you like to know how? MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahaaaaaaa...."

*turns on my sound FX: Echoing Ominous Thunder*

[Emperor Tippy]

Players. So easily sent on wild goose chases.

Divert Teleport
Saving Throw: Will negates (foils diversion)
Power Resistance: Yes (foils diversion)

Now, if Magic Resistance = Power Resistance (Depends on your campaign), there are at least two, maybe three ways he can ignore your Power:
Will Save, SR, and PR.

You are way over thinking this.

And as a DM, I would TOTALLY use this opportunity to mess with you SO bad. "Why yes, I did figure out a way to outsmart your little power. Wouldn't you like to know how? MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahaaaaaaa...."

*turns on my sound FX: Echoing Ominous Thunder*

Yeah, you can do that as well. As I said in my first post, the ways to bypass (or appear to bypass) Divert Teleport are legion. Without more information nothing really specific can be said.

[ChaoticDitz]

Heavens above, Tippy, is it all about exploitation of wording with you? You run some of your own games your own way and that's fine, but you really ought to stop assuming that simply because "oh well technically by RAW it works this way" it's something that everybody is probably going to follow. At least make sure you get some information or something first about the nature of the game. A lot of the readings and recommendations you make seem to imply that you're the kind of person who advises people on how to play card games and tells people to light the other players' cards on fire for easy wins because the rules only say you can't "touch" the other players cards. It's just in bad faith. (In other news, I make terrible metaphors)

Anyway, to contribute to the discussion in a more meaningful way, since he appears to be an Arcane gish, he could theoretically have picked up a level of Archmage, and with a bit of forward-transferring, he might very well be using a SLA Quickened Ghost Form, allowing him to simply "appear" or "disappear" to those not specifically looking for him to drift into or out of an object. Combined perhaps with Still Silent Invisibility or something, and you could appear to disappear to some extent. Efficiency is debatable at best, but it's a workable trick depending on how your DM feels about 3.0 material in a 3.5 game.

[nyjastul69]

The rules don't support that though. It's a fine house rule but that is what it is.

One can't choose if one blinks, only when one blinks. One can't choose not to blink under the effect of Greater Blink. They must blink.

[Emperor Tippy]

Heavens above, Tippy, is it all about exploitation of wording with you?
This isn't exploiting the wording. It's flat out what the spell says. For the duration of the spell you get to move back and forth between the Ethereal and Material planes at will. It's the other interpretations that are trying to twist or ignore the wording.


You run some of your own games your own way and that's fine, but you really ought to stop assuming that simply because "oh well technically by RAW it works this way" it's something that everybody is probably going to follow. At least make sure you get some information or something first about the nature of the game. A lot of the readings and recommendations you make seem to imply that you're the kind of person who advises people on how to play card games and tells people to light the other players' cards on fire for easy wins because the rules only say you can't "touch" the other players cards. It's just in bad faith. (In other news, I make terrible metaphors)
This is a public forum. Until and unless someone specifies specific house rules, source restrictions, or other information the only viable assumption is straight RAW with a bit of RAI (no drown healing, no walking around when dead, etc.).


Anyway, to contribute to the discussion in a more meaningful way, since he appears to be an Arcane gish, he could theoretically have picked up a level of Archmage, and with a bit of forward-transferring, he might very well be using a SLA Quickened Ghost Form, allowing him to simply "appear" or "disappear" to those not specifically looking for him to drift into or out of an object. Combined perhaps with Still Silent Invisibility or something, and you could appear to disappear to some extent. Efficiency is debatable at best, but it's a workable trick depending on how your DM feels about 3.0 material in a 3.5 game.
No, he couldn't. Ending the Ghost Form would take a standard action and if he was incorporeal when he attacked or arrived then it would be obvious to the OP as he has touchsight up.

With Mindsight up the possibilities are 1) teleportation of one kind or another that has a range of at least a hundred feat (assuming Psion (Telepath) Telepathy or Mindbender telepathy), 2) Time Stop or Temporal Acceleration to arrive tracelessly, 3) Wish/Miracle/Reality Revision to arrive, 4) approach on the Ethereal Plane or Plane of Shadows (much less likely), 5) use high order time manipulation.

Assuming that the DM is fudging then you can exclude all forms of transport that don't have precision accuracy. That means it's not Teleport, Plane Shift, Shadow Walk. If he acts immediately after arriving at any point then you can exclude Dimension Door and its variants.

Seeing as how he is known to have a blinking effect activated, is beating Mindsight and Touchsight, and seems to arrive at just the right time Greater Blink actually seems to be a highly likely choice.


One can't choose if one blinks, only when one blinks. One can't choose not to blink under the effect of Greater Blink. They must blink.
Provide any rules support for that.

[Snowbluff]

The spell provides no real benefit if you do not blink.

When moving through solid objects, you do not risk materializing inside one unless you actually end your movement there, in which case you materialize and are shunted off to the nearest open space, taking 1d6 points of damage per 5 feet traveled in this manner.
Also, you do not have control of your blinking when it is not your turn.

[Crake]

Tippy, at this point you're just twisting what's written to say something it quite clearly doesn't say. The spell functions as blink does, with exceptions, so the fact that greater blink doesn't say you can spend as much time on the ethereal plane as you want, the spell still causes you to spend about half your time ethereal, and the other half material, just like blink does. The control over when you blink manifests in the extra options/benefits presented later on in the spell's description, namely no miss chance on your behalf, the ability to ignore the chance to shunt out of objects on your turn, and the option to ready a blink as you're being attacked.

[ben-zayb]

I just have one problem with Tippy's interpretation. This little blurb is part of the spell description:

While blinking, you take only half damage from area attacks (but full damage from those that extend onto the Ethereal Plane). You strike as an invisible creature (with a +2 bonus on attack rolls), denying your target any Dexterity bonus to AC.

You take only half damage from falling, since you fall only while you are material.

While blinking, you can step through (but not see through) solid objects. For each 5 feet of solid material you walk through, there is a 50% chance that you become material. If this occurs, you are shunted off to the nearest open space and take 1d6 points of damage per 5 feet so traveled. You can move at only three-quarters speed (because movement on the Ethereal Plane is at half speed, and you spend about half your time there and half your time material.)

Since you spend about half your time on the Ethereal Plane, you can see and even attack ethereal creatures. You interact with ethereal creatures roughly the same way you interact with material ones.
While the underlined text implies the opposite point RAI, the bolded text is black & white, clear as crystal*, a RAW spell description.

If I spend only one round on the material and the rest on the ethereal... that doesn't add up to 50% material, 50% ethereal, does it?
*sorry, can't resist the temptation to make a pop-culture reference

[Emperor Tippy]

The spell provides no real benefit if you do not blink.

Also, you do not have control of your blinking when it is not your turn.

Neither of these things is supported. Again the spell makes you go Ethereal and it gives you control over when you flip back to the Material or Ethereal planes.


Tippy, at this point you're just twisting what's written to say something it quite clearly doesn't say.
No, that would be the opposite side of the argument. I have provided direct quotes in support of everything that I have said. What I have said is exactly what the rules as written say. The disagreement is arising because others are choosing to interpret what is written.


The spell functions as blink does, with exceptions, so the fact that greater blink doesn't say you can spend as much time on the ethereal plane as you want, the spell still causes you to spend about half your time ethereal, and the other half material, just like blink does.
I have Persistent Greater Blink. I spend 12 hours out of the day on the Ethereal plane and then spend 12 hours on the Material Plane. I have met that requirement, presupposing that it even exists.


The control over when you blink manifests in the extra options/benefits presented later on in the spell's description, namely no miss chance on your behalf, the ability to ignore the chance to shunt out of objects on your turn, and the option to ready a blink as you're being attacked.

And being able to take yourself to the Ethereal plane whenever you desire as that is exactly what the spell says that it does.

[ben-zayb]

I have Persistent Greater Blink. I spend 12 hours out of the day on the Ethereal plane and then spend 12 hours on the Material Plane. I have met that requirement, presupposing that it even exists.Contradictory, since your interpretation of the text gives the caster an option to spend anywhere between 0-100% of his time in the ethereal.

The spell by RAW explicitly mentions that half of the time is spent in the material and the other half is spent in the ethereal. Ceteris paribus, anything that runs contrary to that is either an RAI interpretation or a houserule. A nice houserule, especially if persisted, but a houserule nonetheless. :smallwink:

[IronFist]

Heavens above, Tippy, is it all about exploitation of wording with you? You run some of your own games your own way and that's fine, but you really ought to stop assuming that simply because "oh well technically by RAW it works this way" it's something that everybody is probably going to follow. At least make sure you get some information or something first about the nature of the game. A lot of the readings and recommendations you make seem to imply that you're the kind of person who advises people on how to play card games and tells people to light the other players' cards on fire for easy wins because the rules only say you can't "touch" the other players cards. It's just in bad faith. (In other news, I make terrible metaphors)

Anyway, to contribute to the discussion in a more meaningful way, since he appears to be an Arcane gish, he could theoretically have picked up a level of Archmage, and with a bit of forward-transferring, he might very well be using a SLA Quickened Ghost Form, allowing him to simply "appear" or "disappear" to those not specifically looking for him to drift into or out of an object. Combined perhaps with Still Silent Invisibility or something, and you could appear to disappear to some extent. Efficiency is debatable at best, but it's a workable trick depending on how your DM feels about 3.0 material in a 3.5 game.

It feels like I traveled back in time to before the great thread purge! Wow!
Agreed completely, my friend. Good to meet someone else who thinks like this.

[Snowbluff]

Neither of these things is supported. Again the spell makes you go Ethereal and it gives you control over when you flip back to the Material or Ethereal planes.


Except it ignores this phrasing. If you are shunted when it's not your turn, you obviously become shunted as if you were material. Even the first line agrees.



This spell functions like blink, except you have control over the timing of your "blinking" back and forth between the Ethereal Plane and the Material Plane.
The timing is all you control. You still blink when it's not your turn, even if you think you can spend your whole turn ethereal.

Keep in mind the quoted section is from the Greater Blink spell. So pretty much every time you ignore this, despite citing it yourself, is a transparent failure at formulating an argument. I could be equally fallacious and blatantly ignore the rules as you have, but I am going to wait for a real peak of the pyramid, rather than you saying "Nuh-uh!"

[Emperor Tippy]

Except it ignores this phrasing. If you are shunted when it's not your turn, you obviously become shunted as if you were material. Even the first line agrees.


The timing is all you control. You still blink when it's not your turn, even if you think you can spend your whole turn ethereal.

Keep in mind the quoted section is from the Greater Blink spell. So pretty much every time you ignore this, despite citing it yourself, is a transparent failure at formulating an argument. I could be equally fallacious and blatantly ignore the rules as you have, but I am going to wait for a real peak of the pyramid, rather than you saying "Nuh-uh!"

If you blink back to the material when its not your turn without desiring to do so then you don't control the timing of your blinking. If you have control then you get to choose when you are on the material plane and when you are on the ethereal plane, otherwise you don't have control. You would have influence.

[Snowbluff]

Oh, so you are arguing semantics? I am wasting my time here. Either way, if your argument is that the line using the word "control" means that you have "control" as you've stated so that the term isn't wasted, then I argue the the same for the shunting line. If you have "control," you are not shunted, which would make the line about shunting pointless, so the text about having control must be wrong.

Also, it says you have control over the timing, not when you are ethereal or not. The blinking still happens, which takes but a moment, but you can keep yourself from blinking at inopportune moments.

[Toliudar]

Players. So easily sent on wild goose chases.

Divert Teleport
Saving Throw: Will negates (foils diversion)
Power Resistance: Yes (foils diversion)

Now, if Magic Resistance = Power Resistance (Depends on your campaign), there are at least two, maybe three ways he can ignore your Power:
Will Save, SR, and PR.

You are way over thinking this.

And as a DM, I would TOTALLY use this opportunity to mess with you SO bad. "Why yes, I did figure out a way to outsmart your little power. Wouldn't you like to know how? MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahaaaaaaa...."

*turns on my sound FX: Echoing Ominous Thunder*

Except that all of those only foil the diversion part of the power, not the detection.

And, for the sake of the actual situation: the character in question is ALSO using greater blink to avoid attacks, so is clearly not using that to travel in an ethereal manner.

[Icewraith]

OK, so non-astral non-ethereal travel. Have you ruled out project image/epic illusion magic, or a custom spell that uses the plane of shadow instead of the astral or ethereal planes for travel?

Also, is anyone packing Time Stop protection?

[Lightlawbliss]

at this point, the argument is about how someone thinks about the word blink. from what i'm seeing, nothing is actually stopping you from spending extended periods in each plane as long as you spend half of the spells duration on each side. it would be completely reasonable to houserule things like it be a rapid occurrence or hard to stay on one side, but those are house rules.

however, I would agree that some effects of the spell are difficult to justify with it not being fast but RAW isn't RAI, even if RAI is obvious.

[Toliudar]

OK, so non-astral non-ethereal travel. Have you ruled out project image/epic illusion magic, or a custom spell that uses the plane of shadow instead of the astral or ethereal planes for travel?

Also, is anyone packing Time Stop protection?

No one is packing time stop protection, but it would have been difficult for him to reach his starting point without using some kind of teleport/planar travel. It's definitely not project image (blindsight/touchsight should pick up the difference), and if it's illusion magic, it's really, really impressive stuff (he's been acting while in a fog clloud, in a location that the character would have had to scramble to reach after just a couple rounds).

I really think that this was something more akin to the traditional mode of teleportation (in the sense of moving from one point to another without moving through the intervening space) without having the teleportation designation. It's almost certainly not plane shift or shadow walk, because of the precision of his movement. Master Earth is still a possibility, but an odd one, since he's mostly been doing arcane magic.

Any other suggestions?

[Sith_Happens]

I have Persistent Greater Blink. I spend 12 hours out of the day on the Ethereal plane and then spend 12 hours on the Material Plane. I have met that requirement, presupposing that it even exists.

That interpretation directly contradicts most of the spell's actual effects as explicitly described. If you spent a consecutive hour on the Ethereal, then during that time you would necessarily move at half speed, not fall, and take no damage from (non-[Force], non-Transdimensional) area spells. A creature under the effect of Greater Blink explicitly moves at three-quarters speed, falls at half speed, and takes half damage from area spells. Furthermore, the sentence stating that the subject moves at three-quarters speed explicitly explains that this is due to averaging of the Ethereal and Material portions of the subject's movement. In order for this to be true, the requirement to spend half your time on each plane must apply on a round-by-round basis.

Even with that in mind, Time Stop + Greater Blink will achieve most or all of what the OP has described the NPC in question doing.