A Swashbuckling Bardadin, can it work?

[Dayaz]

Based on a post I saw in another thread, there was a idea in my head.

A Swashbuckler/Bard/Paladin (alignment legal, surprisingly) with Snowflake Wardance and Divine Might would be able to Add their Cha to Attack and Damage, and their Int to Damage.

How viable is this in a monostalt, and what level do you think it would come online?

Because Pirate Paladins should be a thing :smallbiggrin:

[Elderand]

As a swashbuckler/bard/paladin ? Level 8 at the earliest.

Swashbuckler 3/paladin 4/bard 1

ALternatively, use the harmonious knight acf for paladin which get you some ability that can be argued to be bardic music so you get it at level 7.

Swashbuckler 3/paladin 4 (harmonious knight acf)

[Vedhin]

ALternatively, use the harmonious knight acf for paladin which get you some ability that can be argued to be bardic music so you get it at level 7.

Swashbuckler 3/paladin 4 (harmonious knight acf)

Don't forget the Initiate of Milil and From Smite to Song feats. They can add Bardic Music to your Paladin. IoM stacks Bard, Cleric, and Paladin levels, technically grant IC without Bard levels. It does not grant uses, however. FStS allows you to convert Smite Evil into Inspire Courage using your Paladin level as your Bard level. There's a magic weapon in the MIC to grant you extra Smites/day.

[Talya]

Devoted Performer, too.

I'm not seeing the swashbuckler synergy.

Bardadin is already getting Charisma to hit (sometimes 2x charisma bonus to hit), to damage, to saves, and to spellcasting. You're going to advance it above all else.

You're not likely to have spectacular dexterity or intelligence, although they may be 12-14. I'm not sure though that adding 1-2 points to hit and damage is worth three levels of class features.

[Coidzor]

...Why did anyone come up with the term monostalt? :smallconfused:

Bardadin buckles enough swashes and unbuckles enough buckles on its own. :smallwink:

[Zombulian]

While I appreciate as much Swashbuckler as possible in most builds, I fear that the Bardadin does just fine without it. All you're doing at this point is creating more MAD.

[Dayaz]

As a swashbuckler/bard/paladin ? Level 8 at the earliest.

Swashbuckler 3/paladin 4/bard 1

ALternatively, use the harmonious knight acf for paladin which get you some ability that can be argued to be bardic music so you get it at level 7.

Swashbuckler 3/paladin 4 (harmonious knight acf)

Hmm... I'll have to ask my usual DM, but that looks fun (And we usually start around level 8 anyways :belkar:


Don't forget the Initiate of Milil and From Smite to Song feats. They can add Bardic Music to your Paladin. IoM stacks Bard, Cleric, and Paladin levels, technically grant IC without Bard levels. It does not grant uses, however. FStS allows you to convert Smite Evil into Inspire Courage using your Paladin level as your Bard level. There's a magic weapon in the MIC to grant you extra Smites/day.

I'm sorry, but my ability to remember which books these feats are from is failing me, what books were these mostly found in, if you remember? Also, what is IoM again? (I know, I'm a horrible person for not knowing that but I don't think we have the book this is in.)


Devoted Performer, too.

I'm not seeing the swashbuckler synergy.

Bardadin is already getting Charisma to hit (sometimes 2x charisma bonus to hit), to damage, to saves, and to spellcasting. You're going to advance it above all else.

You're not likely to have spectacular dexterity or intelligence, although they may be 12-14. I'm not sure though that adding 1-2 points to hit and damage is worth three levels of class features.

You have a point, I just thought it could be a cool thing to do (And lets be honest, you can still pull off tricks enough to get your Dex and Int buffed with everything else if you do it right/ employ some shenanigans.)


...Why did anyone come up with the term monostalt? :smallconfused:

Bardadin buckles enough swashes and unbuckles enough buckles on its own. :smallwink:

Rofl, that's true. I'm not sure why it was invented, but I was using it to preempt someone from suggesting Gestalt, since I'm pretty sure I could pull it off ok with Gestalt w/o a lot of help.


While I appreciate as much Swashbuckler as possible in most builds, I fear that the Bardadin does just fine without it. All you're doing at this point is creating more MAD.

Like I said, there are ways to pull it off, but I do see what you and Talya have a point. It largely comes from my DM being a bit simpleminded at times, since he's decided that the only way to be a 'pirate' is to be a swashbuckler. Sad, I know, but I wanted to see if it could be done and I thought it might be a fun/capable character if done right.

[Metahuman1]

Suggestion: Add Crusader, and if you MUST use Turn Undead stuff a single level of cleric with cool devotion feats like travel devotion and luck devotion, and song of the white raven, then loose paladin. Add an affiliation to gain Unearthly Grace as a membership benefit so that you get Cha to AC and Saves.

Works the same, except better.

[Talya]

Not to say one can't make a good Bard/Crusader, but it lacks the panache of the Bardadin. There really is outstanding synergy between bard and paladin that crusader lacks (not so much because of the paladin class, but because of splat-support.)

[Metahuman1]

Um, I really can't say I'm seeing it.

Paladin has:

Divine Grace: Cha to all saves. Kinda spiffy.

Detect Evil: Kinda Spiffy.

Smite Evil: Meh.

Turn Undead: Useful for fueling splat feats.

Spell List: Meh.

Fear Immunity: Meh.

Crusaider has:

Martial Maneuvers: Which, honestly Tend to beat Paladin Casting over all, particularly by being an all day resorce, Fear Immunity and Detect and Smite Evil.

A Cleric Dip adds:

Turn Undead: Just like Paladin, but for 1 level in place for 4.

And the Affiliation adds:

Unearthly Grace. Cha mod to AC, Touch AC, and All Saves. Beats Divine Grace with no level investment.


So, unless I've missed something, the Crusader get's everything or better then the paladin levels if you throw on the cleric dip and the affiliation.

[Talya]

It's because of feats that theurge the two classes together.

A Bardadin gets:

+charisma bonus to hit (*2 if you're smiting)
+charisma bonus to damage
+charisma bonus to saves
+charisma bonus to spellcasting
Paladin and bard levels stack for the purposes of inspire courage bonus
Paladin and bard levels stack for the purposes of bardic music uses
Paladin and bard levels stack for the purposes of what bardic music you have access to using
Paladin and bard levels stack for the purposes of Smite Evil damage
------------------------
The Bardsader doesn't get any of that stacking.

[Coidzor]

Not to say one can't make a good Bard/Crusader, but it lacks the panache of the Bardadin. There really is outstanding synergy between bard and paladin that crusader lacks (not so much because of the paladin class, but because of splat-support.)

Yeah, sadly all Bardsader gets is Song of the White Raven. Which is no Initiate of Milil.

[Just to Browse]

Crusader only gets +Cha to Will, instead of all saves, it has very few counters and boosts (as opposed to the paladin's plethora of buff spells with huge splatbook support), almost no benefits from splatbooks at all (especially in relation to the bard), and no turn undead.

I don't know how you're getting that unearthly grace, but a level in cleric also doesn't have as much splat support for bard combos or charisma synergy.

[Coidzor]

Crusader only gets +Cha to Will, instead of all saves, it has very few counters and boosts (as opposed to the paladin's plethora of buff spells with huge splatbook support), almost no benefits from splatbooks at all (especially in relation to the bard), and no turn undead.

I don't know how you're getting that unearthly grace, but a level in cleric also doesn't have as much splat support for bard combos or charisma synergy.

It's a way to gain a bunch of feats and items that don't need to be UMD'd out of a 1 level dip, like the ever-handy Knowledge Devotion just for going Cloistered Cleric. And it's quicker than going into Paladin long enough to get Turn Undead if one wants divine feats.

Also the much more delicious PrC Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) is opened up.

So not always the best choice, but one I could see being made.

[Talya]

Yeah, sadly all Bardsader gets is Song of the White Raven. Which is no Initiate of Milil.



Song of the White Raven is also not useable if you're optimizing inspire courage bonuses. A decently optimized bard is already using two swift actions whenever they start inspire courage (1 to cast inspirational boost, then the immediate action after their turn is done to activate the badge of valor.)

[Coidzor]

Song of the White Raven is also not useable if you're optimizing inspire courage bonuses. A decently optimized bard is already using two swift actions whenever they start inspire courage (1 to cast inspirational boost, then the immediate action after their turn is done to activate the badge of valor.)

Indeed, it's main draw is so that levels of Crusader don't have to be bought off with Chaos Music, a Vest of Legends, or a MW Lute. More for making a Crusader have some bard than anything else, really.

[Talya]

Honestly, despite the charisma synergy between crusader and bard, I generally see the Bardblade as superior to the Bardsader. The Bardsader can't make use of the Crusader's main draw - the only real "tank" in the game - and the warblade's abilities are more complementary with the bard's.

[Zombulian]

Honestly, despite the charisma synergy between crusader and bard, I generally see the Bardblade as superior to the Bardsader. The Bardsader can't make use of the Crusader's main draw - the only real "tank" in the game - and the warblade's abilities are more complementary with the bard's.

Knight says hello.

[Talya]

Knight says hello.


No no no...The knight is good at forcing things to kill her. The crusader is good at forcing things to stand face to face with her and die.

[Red Fel]

No no no...The knight is good at forcing things to kill her. The crusader is good at forcing things to stand face to face with her and die.

Going with Talya on this. The Knight has some cool challenge abilities, most of which can be replicated and exceeded with Maneuvers. The Knight is good at wearing heavy armor, which the Crusader can do as well. The Knight is also able to increase the Tumble DC of enemies passing through his area. The Crusader, via Thicket of Blades, is able to generate AoOs even for a five-foot step. The Knight can soak damage from an adjacent ally. The Crusader can soak damage to herself and turn that into damage output; the Crusader is also able to spot-heal effectively in combat - something that even challenges casters - while still dealing damage. And as a rule, dealing damage to something in order to kill it is generally a more effective way to prevent damage than healing through the damage. The Knight gets bonus feats. The Crusader, as mentioned above, gets Maneuvers, which will likely deal more damage than the Knight can ever dream of dealing.

Knight is nice. Crusader is awesome.

[Metahuman1]

Crusader is better at actually surviving.

But part of that is cause unlike the Knight, the enemy's can shoot there arrows at the sorcerer first, and run around the Crusader to use there spears on the rogue, and THEN attack the Crusader, were as first they gotta get rid of the knight.


And for Unearthly Grace, get an affiliation. Easy.

And Crusader makes wonderful use of Bard + Cleric Dip. It get's it bonuses to hit and damage. Bonuses to spend on Power attack and/or Stone Power.

And bardblade doesn't have the luxury of auto recovering the maneuvers it uses. Bardsader does.

BTW: Melodic Casting, which makes casting inspirational boost part of the same action your using to turn on inspire courage says hi. So does Seeker of the Song lvl 2 that let's you do Dragonfire inspiration and Inspire Courage at the same time. And so do the Rules for having a readied action that sensible Bard/anything players use to keep a readied action ready to help them bring there Inspire courage online in the first round and still do other things.

:smallbiggrin:

[Captnq]

Why not take Mystic Ranger, get the feat Sword of the arcane order. Then you are both arcane and divine spellcaster. Then take prestige Bard PrC and Prestige Paladin PrC. It'll be MUCH simpler, you'll have oodles of spell lists to choose from, and you can afford the dead spell levels of Prestige Bard/Paladins because Mystic Ranger maxes out with 5th level spells at level 10.

[Talya]

And bardblade doesn't have the luxury of auto recovering the maneuvers it uses. Bardsader does.


The bardsader doesn't have the option of actually using the maneuver they need most at any given time, just the ones that are offered to it.

I really, really hate the Crusader's silly maneuver-granting mechanic. And its class features are not complementary with the bard's. The Crusader's class features are about soaking up damage and dishing it back. The bardsader needs to avoid taking damage, which makes the crusader features not so good.



BTW: Melodic Casting, which makes casting inspirational boost part of the same action your using to turn on inspire courage says hi.
No, it really doesn't. Melodic casting does exactly 2 things: (1) allows you to substitute a perform check in place of a concentration check for spellcasting functions, and (2) allows you to cast spells, activate command word items or spell completion items while performing bardic music. That's it. Spellcasting or item activation still use their normal activation actions. Maintaining bardic music itself generally doesn't require an action at all (with the exception of a couple specific non-combat songs that require concentration).


So does Seeker of the Song lvl 2 that let's you do Dragonfire inspiration and Inspire Courage at the same time.

That's a nice ability. It's too bad it needs two levels of Seeker of the Song to do it. I'm not sure saving one round of song activation is worth two levels of everything else, because a single-class bard can have DFI and IC active as effects at the same time, too, it just takes two rounds to pull it off.


And so do the Rules for having a readied action that sensible Bard/anything players use to keep a readied action ready to help them bring there Inspire courage online in the first round and still do other things.
The problem with a readied action is it's only usable for a single standard action, move action, or a free action. Swift actions aren't even included there.

That means you cannot activate your most powerful inspire courage effect with a readied action -- since doing so requires a swift action to cast a spell before starting inspire courage, then a standard action to start inspire courage, and then an immediate action on the next round to activate the badge of courage. (This is the problem with Song of the White Raven... you can't use two swift actions in the same turn, so it does nothing for you, you are stuck activating your bardic music as a standard action because you've already used your swift action.)


Why not take Mystic Ranger, get the feat Sword of the arcane order. Then you are both arcane and divine spellcaster. Then take prestige Bard PrC and Prestige Paladin PrC. It'll be MUCH simpler, you'll have oodles of spell lists to choose from, and you can afford the dead spell levels of Prestige Bard/Paladins because Mystic Ranger maxes out with 5th level spells at level 10.

Sword of the Arcane Order doesn't say anything about changing the wizard spells you're memorizing into arcane spells. You're still a divine spellcaster.

[Jergmo]

Step 1: Paladin of Freedom.
Step 2: Proceed with Bardadin.
Step 3: Dread Pirate PRC (motivation route)
Step 4: BEST PIRATE HUNTER.

[Dayaz]

Step 1: Paladin of Freedom.
Step 2: Proceed with Bardadin.
Step 3: Dread Pirate PRC (motivation route)
Step 4: BEST PIRATE HUNTER.

See, this could work too. It does nicely fit the idea of what I wanted to see when I proposed the question, even though it doesn't have Swashbuckler in it. I'll need to look up all the requirements and abilities of the Dread Pirate, but I suppose it could work out okay.

Everyone, I do appreciate the idea of Crusader/Cleric, but they weren't what I was looking for. I know how powerful those are, but I didn't want them in my build simply because I like my Swashbuckler Bardadin fluff. I thank everyone, but could I please ask that we stick mainly in the direction of the Pirate Paladin I'm considering building.

I am sorry if I'm coming across as rude, but my ex-girlfriend decided to make me play guild wars 2 with her until about 10 minutes ago, and I have work in less than 5 hours D: As you can probably all imagine, I'm somewhat tired and my politeness filter is already asleep.

Again, sorry.

[Vedhin]

Add an affiliation to gain Unearthly Grace as a membership benefit so that you get Cha to AC and Saves.


And for Unearthly Grace, get an affiliation. Easy.

Please, please, please, tell me what affiliation does this.

[Metahuman1]

The one you make, since there are clear cut rules for doing so in PHB II and they say several times in that chapter "Don't JUST use these examples, there just there to give you a kinda sorta rough idea of what it should look like your first time or two so you can get comfortable with the rules for making your own."

Talya: Um, should I point out that if we do it the other way, All that happens is you spend the first 1-3 rounds effectively doing a DBZ scream to power up while the fight goes on, and your either getting whaled on or the thing your gonna fight is being allowed to be killed before your ready?

And the Crusader Let's the Bardsader get hit and not instantly die, and it does so better then the Bardadin because of devoted spirit and Delayed Damage Pool + Furious Counter Strike.

And Readied Action works just fine, Down Grade it form standard or move to swift at the time you actually use it. Just like during your turn you can down grade you standard action to a move and/or your move to swift if you so choose. Also, if you can activate bardic music, and cast while doing so, which is what melodic casting says it let's you do, why not activate it and cast your spell at the same time and have done with it?

And yes, a two level dip could be very painful on a straight bard build that uses it's spells, or gished with something that doesn't have a special mechanic that cuts it down to effectively a 1 level dip like Crusader. And in addition, again, that dip cuts down on the time spend "powering up", so that you can actually be responding to the threat while it's there.

[Talya]

The one you make, since there are clear cut rules for doing so in PHB II and they say several times in that chapter "Don't JUST use these examples, there just there to give you a kinda sorta rough idea of what it should look like your first time or two so you can get comfortable with the rules for making your own."

So your argument is, "If we rule 0 this and make stuff up, we can give the bardsader whatever we want it to have?" That isn't gonna fly.



Talya: Um, should I point out that if we do it the other way, All that happens is you spend the first 1-3 rounds effectively doing a DBZ scream to power up while the fight goes on, and your either getting whaled on or the thing your gonna fight is being allowed to be killed before your ready?

Generally it's not worth giving up two levels for the ability to start two songs at once. If a single round difference is going to make or break the fight, you'd probably be better with those 2 levels worth of class features/spells back and using them.




And Readied Action works just fine, Down Grade it form standard or move to swift at the time you actually use it.
Even if you could do so (and has been pointed out to me, you cannot downgrade a swift action to a standard in any situation), that's not enough. You need to actually have two actions readied a swift and a standard, and that still uses up your turn for the round, and prevented you from even moving or doing anything at all while you had the action readied.


Just like during your turn you can down grade you standard action to a move and/or your move to swift if you so choose.
Yeah. Apparently that's not a thing.


Also, if you can activate bardic music, and cast while doing so, which is what melodic casting says it let's you do, why not activate it and cast your spell at the same time and have done with it?
Because (1) inspirational boost is activated before bardic music. You cannot activate bardic music then apply inspirational boost afterward, and (2) even if you could, all that does is change the order in which you use your actions from Swift - Standard, to Standard - Swift. The result in action economy would be the same.


And yes, a two level dip could be very painful on a straight bard build that uses it's spells, or gished with something that doesn't have a special mechanic that cuts it down to effectively a 1 level dip like Crusader. And in addition, again, that dip cuts down on the time spend "powering up", so that you can actually be responding to the threat while it's there.


This is true, seeker of the song doesn't hurt crusader as much as it does bard. However, most bardadin/bardsader builds tend to be at least 75-90% bard, and only 10%-25% paladin/crusader. Seeker of the Song is directly cutting into bard features.

[Vedhin]

The one you make, since there are clear cut rules for doing so in PHB II and they say several times in that chapter "Don't JUST use these examples, there just there to give you a kinda sorta rough idea of what it should look like your first time or two so you can get comfortable with the rules for making your own."

First off, saying that "if we make up something, this is better" doesn't work. Next, Unearthly Grace would be WAY overpowered as a affiliaton benefit.



And Readied Action works just fine, Down Grade it form standard or move to swift at the time you actually use it. Just like during your turn you can down grade you standard action to a move and/or your move to swift if you so choose.

Pro tip: You cannot downgrade anything to a swift action.
Pro tip: Song of the White Raven gives you the ability to IC as a swift action. It does not require you to do so.



Also, if you can activate bardic music, and cast while doing so, which is what melodic casting says it let's you do, why not activate it and cast your spell at the same time and have done with it?

Melodic Casting says that you can cast a spell while maintaining bardic music. Not while activating it. That's as ridiculous as tryin to cast fireball and swing your sword simultaneously, because "they're both standard actions".

[Coidzor]

Wait, why can't a bardsader get hit? Their HP isn't that much lower, once they get going, that's... an average of 3.5 hp for 4 levels versus 5.5 for the rest of the build, though I suppose the first level has a gulf of 4 HP between the two, depending upon whether skills or HP are prioritized. :smallconfused:

[Talya]

Wait, why can't a bardsader get hit? Their HP isn't that much lower, once they get going, that's... an average of 3.5 hp for 4 levels versus 5.5 for the rest of the build, though I suppose the first level has a gulf of 4 HP between the two, depending upon whether skills or HP are prioritized. :smallconfused:

It's not just a matter of getting hit, it's a matter of likeliness to get hit. Heavy armor vs. Light armor does make a difference. Whether it's a chain shirt vs. Full plate, or a mithral breastplate vs. Mithral Mechanus armor, it always makes some difference. Combine that with lower ability to absorb damage and lower hit points.

Also, the build is generally more bard than paladin/crusader. If you go Crusader or paladin at 1 (and you don't. Skills > Hit Points), you've got at most 10 more hit points on a bardsader/bardadin vs. a bard of the same level.

Edit: Wow. I just realized you would build it bard 4/crusader 16, whereas I'd go Crusader 4/bard 16. My rationale is that the bardic spellcasting and other class features are more powerful than the maneuvers. Furthermore, if you distribute your crusader levels well, the bard levels help your maneuver progression, whereas crusader does nothing to advance bardic casting. 16 Bard gets you 6th level spells and 6th level maneuvers, and that 4th attack.

[Jergmo]

There's always the defense bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm) variant from UA, here on d20srd.

[Metahuman1]

1:

A DM pulling out Home Brew Monsters that he made on his own using no book guidelines is Rule Zero.

A DM throwing a storm at the party that's also magic and stops them from doing any kind of travel faster then walking the road on foot all the way across the continent to keep them from just teleporting to the BBEG, and the storm also messes up any allies they might make so that they have to do the job alone, is Rule Zero.

A DM deciding to outright Ban Tome of Battle or Magic of Incarnum or Tome of Magic or Psionics cause you don't like the fluff, is Rule Zero.


Using the rules your specifically given in a supplement to accomplish there specific, intended taste, is not only not rule zero, it's hardly if at all different form character creation.


2:

Talya, I think I see part of why were coming at this so differently. You build Bardsaders with mostly bard. I Dip the class one level and then maybe 2 for Seeker of the Song if I can at all possibly get away with it. Spells known are Inspirational Boost and after that nothing matters, spells per day are utterly devoted to fueling that one spell, and nothing matters except. I take Bardic Knack, and Jack of All Trades, and use Super Limited Magic Items to get bonuses to Knowledge checks against monsters to boost up Knowledge Devotion, and use that and inspire courage to fuel stone power if I'm tending to favor defense on that build, or if I'm tending to favor offense, add the 2 Seeker Levels and add Dragonfire Inspiration and replace stone power with power attack if I'm using a more offense oriented character.

Bard isn't the Chassie, it's a dip to avoid the consequences of full power attacking/stone powering every round on every attack with out having to even think about it so that I can get to more important things like picking what strike to use and weapon enchantment to buy next. Maybe it get's me some extra skill related utility along the way, and that's it. The build is not that different form straight Crusader, or even Straight Warblade, except in the Warblades Case it's usually got the Seeker Dip and a Spirit Lion Totem Dip and a mix and match of Tiger Claw Boosts/Strikes that help TWF, Diamond Mind Counters and strikes too good too pass up (Topping out with Time Stands Still to go with Tiger Claws Raging Mongoose.) and a Smattering of White Raven Charges. No Power Attack or Stone Power cause there it's just there to give some love to the guy with duel swords.

[IronFist]

Bardic Knack plus Jack of All Trades does not work.