What am I supposed to do? Accept it?

[Maginomicon]

What am I supposed to do? (This may sound like a rant, but it's not intended that way.)

It seems lately, at least to me, often that left and right wherever I read threads here I see people replying... whining about the entire premise of that thread, especially when it's my own threads.

Maybe I'm just insane, but... to me... it feels extremely disrespectful to reply to a thread with complaints about the OP's premise. If the OP wrote it as or implied something to be non-negotiable in the opening post itself, shouldn't the people replying to the thread respect the OP's wishes? Shouldn't they take it at its givens and actually address the OP's question or issue?

What should I do when it's not my thread? What should I do when it is my thread? I want to know, because this is ridiculous.

In frustration, I have, lately, taken to ending most of my threads with sections headered with "what I want to know" and "what I don't want to hear", thinking perhaps I just wasn't being clear about the thread's purpose, that maybe it was at least partially my fault. But... no, I've seen those two clarifications (especially the latter) completely ignored and sometimes even mocked (or at least it seems that way). So, I've come here to ask the powers-that-be what I should do.

This isn't right. I don't know what it is... but this isn't right. We might not have any right to claim any control over the threads we make, but we can certainly be justified in feeling frustrated when most (if not all) of the replies we get are complaining about the root premise and givens of the OP itself. If we wanted the premise to be critiqued, we'd say we want the premise critiqued, and often, we (or at least I) don't.

Should I take to just formatting my threads so everything is prepended by a new "Given this non-negotiable premise" section so that it's clear that it's not cool to be treated that way? What can we actually do to have our threads be taken seriously by the average poster here?

[137beth]

From the forum rules:

Trolling
<snip>
Also, comments that are pointless negation of the purpose of a thread ("threadcrapping") or comments predicting the thread will end badly ("doomsaying") are also likely to be trolling.

[Siosilvar]

There's also the statement (which I cannot find at the moment, so take this with a grain of salt), however, that the OP has no control over their threads. You make the opening post, providing the starting point for the discussion, then you're on the same ground as everybody else as far as what direction the thread takes.

So basically, if they want to discuss or dissect the thread's premises or even blatantly disregard them to talk about something closely related (not wildly tangential, however), that's where the thread goes. You can appeal to moderators, but unless it's egregiously off-topic I doubt any action will be taken.

EDIT: And for good measure, HERE'S A CLAUSE IN ALL-CAPS.

[Maginomicon]

From the forum rules:
So I just report them? They usually don't make it obvious that it's trolling, but it certainly feels on the receiving end like it's "threadcrapping". How am I supposed to tell the difference? Frequently entire threads get derailed from the start and essentially-everyone is de facto threadcrapping (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307563). What then? Report every single person?

There's also the statement (which I cannot find at the moment), however, that the OP has no control over their threads.Yes. I know. I brought that up in the OP of this thread:
We might not have any right to claim any control over the threads we make...

[nyjastul69]

I don't think it's inappropriate to report 'threadcrapping'. What is threadcrapping though? Only the OP can really make that decision. I sympathize with you though. Your linked thread reminds of all the people who want help optimizing a Monk and they mostly get 'don't play Monk'. I think that those people think they are actually helping though. I would just report anything you consider inappropriate. Let the Mods do their work after that.

[TaiLiu]

Frequently[URL="http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307563"]entire threads get derailed from the start
Indeed. It is a charming consequence of the whole 'everyone is equal expect for the moderators/administrators' culture, reinforced via forum rules. I find it quite fun, myself.

Whether this is intentional or not will depend on an administrator's answer, though.

[137beth]

Yes, I have seen your threads get derailed like that, and other similar threads.
Frequently it takes something like the following form:
OP: I'm planning on using this cool house rule! How would you fine-tune this small detail?
Reply: That entire premise is horrible and no one would ever like it.
OP: Uh, I'm already using it and my players love it, we just aren't sure about this tiny detail. The validity of the entire thing isn't really in question.
Reply: Even if you think you're enjoying it, in the long run it will make the game worse!


You linked to one about criticals...
there was also something similar about someone who wasn't using xp, and wanted to know what to do about spells with xp costs. There were some reasonable responses (mostly suggesting either to convert them to gold costs a la PF, or something similar to the articifer's craft reserve). But there were several people who kept saying
"Don't bother, just use the xp system like you're suppose to? Why are you worried about the record keeping? It really isn't that bad, just use xp!"
....despite the OP repeatedly reminding people that the game in question was already going on, was not using xp, and that the OP and all the players in that group agreed that the xp system as written was more record-keeping than it was worth for them, personally, and the OP just wanted an answer to a minor question about xp costs.

[Porthos]

If you see something that you think might be threadcrapping, especially if it looks like a dogpile, report it. The mods might take a while to get to it, but they're the only ones that can do anything about it.

At the same time, threadcrapping can be pretty subjective. What's threadcrapping for one person could be vigorous debate for another. That linked thread was pretty bad IMO, but did anyone report it? And I would also point out that any one individual post might not be treadcrapping, but an overall thread vibe might. In that case, just report the thread (say one of what you think is the worst posts) to the mods to let them know that there might be a problem in a huge chunk of the thread and let them decide what, if anything, should be done about it.

After all, not all moderator actions are done publicly. And they might disagree that there is threadcrapping going on.

In the end, all you can do is report things and then sit back and let the board play out as it may. And if you report too many things? Well, I'm sure the mod team will let you know if you're sending in too many what they deem as frivolous reports. :smallwink:

So in the end, to answer your thread title? No. Don't 'accept it'. Just recognize that you can really only do two things:

A) Ignore what you deem as threadcrapping and engage with the rest of the thread participants as normal.

B) Report what you think might be board violations.... and then don't respond to the people who you think are causing trouble.

It can be hard to do at times, but in the end that's really all one can do on any moderated forum. :smallsmile:

[Robs]

Create a culture of shame around this behaviour so that people who would otherwise engage in it will police themselves. Like jaywalking, or farting in public :P

[Porthos]

I would also say one other thing about posts which might be near the threadcrapping line:

Respond politely, but firmly, that's not the sort of advice you were looking for.

For instance, in said linked thread, what I would have done, almost immediately, is said something like:

=====

Well, I can understand that you don't like Critical Fumbles, and believe me I've heard all of the arguments (:smalltongue:), but what I was wondering is if you or anyone else had any tips on how to implement them or could point me in a direction of anyone who had.

<<<GARBABLE BARBLE I HATE YOUR THREAD PREMISE>>>

Yeah, OK. I get it. You don't like it. Not really helping me here, though. :smallwink: Anyone else here able to help? :smallsmile:

====

See, I've often found that a firm polite rebuff while still staying positive works wonders in the long run. You'll attract far more of the answers you seek that way.

And if people are rude in response? Well the report button isn't far away. :smallwink:

This is part and parcel of my advice of 'ignoring the threadcrapping that might be going on'. Simply let people know, again POLITELY, that really wasn't what you were looking for, and ask if there is anyway they could help.

Now, because of the whole 'not owning threads' bit that you've already acknowledged, they might ignore you. But simply out-politening can go a long way in to getting things back on track. :smallwink:

[thubby]

I only skimmed the thread, but it doesn't look like a derail.

OP:"what are your thoughts on a crit/fumble system?"
forum at large: "it's a bad idea for (well established and stated reasons), don't do it!"

but for the sake of avoiding getting terribly meta. my general experience is that if a thread you create isn't giving you what you want, it often means the community at large doesn't have it. complaining or reporting people isn't going to help.
the people on here are generally nice. even if you don't what you get, they're trying to help.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Of course you're entitled to feel however you want about the comments of others. It's what you decide to do about it that is regulated by the Forum Rules. If you think someone is flaming, trolling, or, more specifically, threadcrapping, then report it. Report individual posts you think violate the Forum Rules. If there are multiple problem posts in a thread report each one or just report one of them and note something that indicates there's a larger problem and where we might find it (above this post, below the post, by this individual poster, by two posters X and Y). Just use your best judgment in determining what to report.

As noted, thread starters don't control threads or the posters in them. You're welcome to engage in whatever discussion you like, within the Forum Rules, including clarifying what you are interested in discussing. But it's not up to you to call others out on their poor discussion skills, Forum Rules violations, or anything else.

Should posters accept an OP's givens or seeming perspectives, probably. But challenging them doesn't necessary equal thread crapping. Judgment is required.

[Rawhide]

Just to reinforce what Roland St. Jude and others have said, and provide a recent example, once a thread has been released "into the wild", it isn't yours to control anymore. If it is on topic and doesn't violate the forum rules, then the discussion is allowed to continue. However, as noted there, the discussion must remain on topic. A certain amount of topic drift is allowed, but it must remain tangentially on topic.

e.g. If you are in one of the design forums and have asked for some information and are specifically being given different information you have made it clear that you are not interested in certain unrelated information, then if someone brings it up it may be considered off topic (but be prepared to answer questions of "why?" or "I know you mentioned x, but have you considered x+y?") and if they are disruptive should be reported.

An example of being on topic, tangentially on topic, and off topic happened recently in the gaming section on an xcom thread. A thread was started to discuss a particular new xcom game, and comparisons were made to the previous xcom games. Eventually, the discussion became only about the previous xcom games. This is where I stepped in and asked them to make a new thread for it.

On topic: Discussing the xcom game mentioned in the thread title/original post.
Tangentially on topic: Mentioning the previous games and discussing differences between them and the thread topic's version.
Off topic: Discussing the previous games in the series only.