advice on building a jack sparrow, zorro, inigo montoya character [3.5]

[commander panda]

ok, so my friend is trying start up a D&D group, and for the first campaign we already have people devoted to all the niches (healer, sneaker, face puncher, god) so i figure i'll build a fifth wheel.

the character i'm going for is a dashing bastard swordsman type, who has high social skills but can contribute to combat in a meaningful (if erratic) way. also, he does a lot of crazy ****, like making entrances through stain glass windows and riding enemies down stairs.

mechanically speaking, i see him having high cha and dex, passable int, hopefully passable str and con, and low wis. i'd like him to be heavily invested in all the social and mobility skills and to be able to use his cha in combat.

the problem i'm having is mostly one of focus; i've looked at a ton of official and home-brew content and there are so many possible classes that if i took stuff from each i'd be multiclassing into high epic levels.
so far i've considered: bard, rogue, fighter, beguiler, swashbuckler, factotum, suave thief (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/The_Suave_Thief_(3.5e_class)), dashing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29882&highlight=Dashing+Swordsman) swordsman (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dashing_Swordsman_(DnD_Prestige_Class)) (not sure which is better), and badass (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198399) (because it rewards you for doing daring sh*t, which i will definitely benefit from.)

any help you beautiful, beautiful optimizers could give me would be much appreciated.

[denthor]

:elan: look at the icon to the left

High dex high cha

Feats

make dex your damage modifier

Acrobatics Agility based feats and skills

[Juntao112]

ok, so my friend is trying start up a D&D group, and for the first campaign we already have people devoted to all the niches (healer, sneaker, face puncher, god) so i figure i'll build a fifth wheel.

the character i'm going for is a dashing bastard swordsman type, who has high social skills but can contribute to combat in a meaningful (if erratic) way. also, he does a lot of crazy ****, like making entrances through stain glass windows and riding enemies down stairs.

mechanically speaking, i see him having high cha and dex, passable int, hopefully passable str and con, and low wis. i'd like him to be heavily invested in all the social and mobility skills and to be able to use his cha in combat.

the problem i'm having is mostly one of focus. i've looked at a ton of official and home-brew content and there are so many possible classes that if i took stuff from each i'd be multiclassing into high epic levels.
so far i've considered: bard, rogue, fighter, beguiler, swashbuckler, factotum, suave thief (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/The_Suave_Thief_(3.5e_class)), dashing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29882&highlight=Dashing+Swordsman) swordsman (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dashing_Swordsman_(DnD_Prestige_Class)) (not sure which is better), and badass (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198399) (because it rewards you for doing daring sh*t, which i will definitely benefit from.)

any help you beautiful, beautiful optimizers could give me would be much appreciated.

Try this. (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?327699-Shiver-Me-Timbers-It-s-Black-Jack-Wellesley!)

[commander panda]

yeah elan was my initial inspiration:smallbiggrin:.

i definitely agree on the feats and skills (already planned to take weapon finesse.) but i'm more looking for advice on classes and specific feats i may not have heard of.

[eggynack]

I'm inclined to say factotum. I mean, it doesn't quite fit your ability score plan, because you'd inevitably have to max out intelligence, but factotums are cool. They're like the Indy ploy incarnate, capable of fifth wheeling infinitely, and lacking focus like crazy. If had to name one class that I'd expect to jump through a stained glass window and raise a sword to his enemy while making a pithy one liner, it would have to be the factotum.

[commander panda]

If had to name one class that I'd expect to jump through a stained glass window and raise a sword to his enemy while making a pithy one liner, it would have to be the factotum.
sounds good:smallbiggrin: factotum was pretty high on my list for possible classes, but now i might need to take a closer look. the int is a bit of a problem for the character, but i'll definitely consider it.


Try this. (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?327699-Shiver-Me-Timbers-It-s-Black-Jack-Wellesley!)

looks perfect, but i'm hesitant to take a full 20 level build, since i doubt we'll start off higher than fifth level, and i don't really want to be bound to an exact build anyhow (he doesn't really need to be super-duper high op). i'll definitely use it for reference though.



MOAR please, people. this is hugely helpful :smallbiggrin:.

[blelliot]

The luck"s friend prc from complete scoundrel might work quite well.

[13_CBS]

Is Tome of Battle available? If so, a Warblade might be useful.

Mostly due to Diamond Mind, White Raven, and certain Stone Dragon maneuvers and stances. Diamond Mind lets you deal good damage even if your Strength is low and all you've got is a rapier--it also represents targeting weakpoints on your enemy through sheer concentration and skill, overcoming silly physical limitations like "muscles" and "strength". White Raven is perfect for the charismatic captain; "Onwards, men! Grog's on me!" is a great way to flavor White Raven's party-boosting effects. Stone Dragon is mostly for the Mountain Hammer line of maneuvers, which lets you deal extra damage and also ignore the hardness of objects and deal full damage to them--this is an excellent way to sunder an enemy's sword or punch open a glass window, just like in the movies.

The one problem is that Warblades, while they do get Diplomacy, don't get Bluff. So multiclassing into something swashbucklier (like...a Swashbuckler, I suppose :smallbiggrin:) can let you treat Bluff and such as class skills.

So the build might work like this:

High Dex, good Int and Cha, ease up on the other stats (though don't neglect Con too much)

Take at least a few levels of Warblade

Focus on maneuvers from the Diamond Mind and White Raven line, with judicious cherrypicking from Stone Dragon and Iron Heart (Iron Heart Surge and Wall of Blades are both staple maneuvers and awesome for your swashbuckling character)

[Red Fel]

I would say go for a Dex- and Cha-focused character.

If you're not sure where to start, check the X Stat to Y Bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) list for Dex and Cha. (Wow, lot of options for Cha.) Go through until something strikes your fancy.

If you're willing to take a level adjustment, for example, there are some races and templates that get Cha to AC and Saves. Paladins also get Cha to saves. Frankly, a Paladin of Freedom fits an Inigo Montoya character reasonably well.

As an alternative, you could play a smart, dexterous swordsman, as opposed to a charming one. Take a three-level dip of Swashbuckler for Weapon Finesse, a boost to Reflex saves, and Int to damage. Then switch to Warblade as you like for more Int bonus class features, and Maneuver your socks off. Play up Diamond mind and be able to resist anything requiring a save. Use Wall of Blades and parry rays with your sword. The possibilities are endless.

Either way, I do recommend looking at the above link. It will give you some idea of which stats you can stick where. I also recommend limiting your focus. Int/Dex can work. Cha/Dex can work. Dex/Str can work. But throwing three in together (e.g. Int/Cha/Dex) will make you MAD.

[gorfnab]

Here is a swashbuckler swordsman style build I came up with awhile ago.

Human or Strongheart Halfling
1. Cobra Strike (UA) Decisive Strike (PHBII) Monk - Carmendine Monk, Combat Expertise, B: Dodge
2. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - B: Mobility
3. Swashbuckler - Deadly Defense, B: Weapon Finesse
4. Swashbuckler
5. Swashbuckler
6. Thief Acrobat - Combat Reflexes
7. Thief Acrobat
8. Thief Acrobat
9. Thief Acrobat - Einhander
10. Thief Acrobat
11. Warblade
12. Warblade or Duelist - Ironheart Aura
13. Duelist
14. Duelist
15. Duelist - Robilar's Gambit
16. Duelist
17. Duelist
18. Duelist - Stormgaurd Warrior
19. Duelist
20. Duelist

Levels 10 through 12 can be rearranged depending on your needs. The current setup gives you Improved Evasion and Uncanny Dodge at these levels. However if you don't need Improved Evasion take one less level of Thief Acrobat and move the first level of Warblade to level 10. If you don't need Uncanny Dodge don't take the 2nd level of Warblade and instead go into Duelist a level early. If you don't need either abilities take Warblade at level 10 and enter Duelist at level 11.

If flaws are available pick up EWP: Broadblade Shortsword (pre-errata version if possible) or Versatile Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick (may need to rearrange later feats). If traits are available pick up Cautious.

The Monk and Swashbuckler levels (levels 1 through 5) can be switched around to taste. I personally like Swash 1/ Monk 2/ Swash 2

[IronFist]

A big +1 to Warblade. Maybe a BardBlade?

[commander panda]

i'm liking the warblade idea, though party captain was pretty far out of my mind (i think the personality i had in mind would exasperate my team, more than inspire them. :smalltongue:)

there is one problem though, my DM is new (this is his first time) and i don't want to confuse him with a whole new combat system. so i was thinking possibly going rogue for a few levels to grab sneak attack, evasion, and uncanny dodge then going swashbuckler with the daring outlaw feat. then optimizing my bluff to sneak attack in the middle of combat, and mobility to zip around the battlefield doing crazy stunts and being generally dashing. i was also thinking of dipping in a class that gives me cha to attacks (provided he allow that to stack with dex, which likely wont happen.)

my only issue is that making this build work seems fairly feat intensive (daring outlaw, agile athlete, group fakeout, two weapon fighting to boost that sneak attack damage, skill focusses, maybe hand crossbow proficiency, and probably other stuff.) and the swashbuckler doesn't give many skill points, making social/mobility optimization a bit difficult.
i haven't talked to him about traits/flaws but i think i may go that route, if i truly need the feats to function.

can you guys tell me if this is a doomed build idea? remember, he doesnt need to dominate the battlefield, i just want him to be ableto contribute in combat, while being the party face (and also being oodles of hilarity to play, jack sparrow is in the description for a reason :smalltongue:.) i don't think my party will really be optimizing anyway, so as long as it is workable in a low op mostly core game it should be strong enough.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm inclined to say factotum. I mean, it doesn't quite fit your ability score plan, because you'd inevitably have to max out intelligence, but factotums are cool. They're like the Indy ploy incarnate, capable of fifth wheeling infinitely, and lacking focus like crazy. If had to name one class that I'd expect to jump through a stained glass window and raise a sword to his enemy while making a pithy one liner, it would have to be the factotum.
If homebrew is OK-- and it sounds like it is-- may I submit my Swashbuckler-Factotum mashup (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259254)? (Scroll down)

Otherwise, a Bard with Snowflake Wardance ought to do good by you. Use Inspire Courage/Dragonfire Inspiration for your damage booster. (There's also the Crystal Echoblade in the MIC, which lets you add 1/2 Bard level to damage-- always a nice boost)

[commander panda]

Wow... That class actually might work perfectly :smalleek::smallsmile: (we really need a Plesently surprised/amazed face.)
Questions:
-if I got weapon finess, would that be overlapped by beauty brain over brawn? Or would they stack (stacking Dex and cha makes thematic sense, to me).
-is acrobatic movement the same as acrobatic charge?
-does precise strike stack on two weapon fighting or off hand attacks, and does taking two weapon fighting eclips the dualist style?
-is precise strike meant to be this classes primary damage booster? Because the requirement to spend points on it rather then requireing flat footed enemies makes it seem more limited than a sneak attack (given all the cleaver ways one can make many enemies flat footed at once) it feels like it may become insignificant Once I'm spending a few points a turn. (especially if you spend a point on every strike.)

This class looks extreamy promising. Thanks for making it:smallbiggrin:.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Wow... That class actually might work perfectly
I live to serve.


Questions:
-if I got weapon finess, would that be overlapped by beauty over brawn? Or would they stack (stacking Dex and cha makes thematic sense, to me).
They wouldn't stack, since both are replacing Strength. You'd use whichever ability score was higher.


-is acrobatic movement the same as acrobatic charge?
Yes.


-does precise strike stack on two weapon fighting or off hand attacks, and does taking two weapon fighting eclips the dualist style?
Precise Strike doesn't really work with TWF-- it's a single attack as a standard action that deals bonus damage.

TWF normally only works when making a full attack. Combat Style lets you use it with a standard action attack.


-is precise strike meant to be this classes primary damage booster? Because the requirement to spend points on it rather then requireing flat footed enemies makes it seem more limited than a sneak attack (given all the cleaver ways one can make many enemies flat footed at once) it feels like it may become insignificant Once I'm spending a few points a turn. (especially if you spend a point on every strike.)
It is supposed to be the main option, aye. You do get a lot of points, and it's pretty easy to trigger, but... Looking back, I might change it. Maybe let it use d4s and apply to all attacks in the round, but you have to make a Balance, Jump, or Tumble that same round in order to use it?

[commander panda]

Well, if you think it's enough points, it's probably fine. I'v never payed a factotum before, so I'm not really knowledgable about that. I would say yes to finding some way to chain, though. Perhaps make it a bit more circumstantial?

This is just a person with no home brewing XP throwing out ideas, but perhaps make it so that you can either have the d4s, or get the d6s when you are being mobile (moving in/out of threat zones, tumbling, ect)? Maybe make it work with cleave?

Also, I should have clarified. When I mentioned TWF I really meant "would precise strike stack if you get multipal attacks on a standard action, already?"

[Grod_The_Giant]

Also, I should have clarified. When I mentioned TWF I really meant "would precise strike stack if you get multipal attacks on a standard action, already?"
No, because it's not an attack. Think of it as a maneuver-- you take a standard action, make a melee attack, and deal extra damage if you hit.

EDIT: Also, it is a full-BAB class, and it can take extra standard actions. You can make that work.

[commander panda]

Understood.

I think that may be my only problem with your class then. It's precise strike eally limited. I mean, the idea of one sudden lunge makes sense, but it doesn't seem to be able to take advantage of advantageous situations that make it more effective.

The class is great overall, but for a roguish glass cannon, it seems like it might be a little low on damage/round with that one attack claus.
All that said, I will probably use this for my character. Thanks for showing it to me.

Edit: good point :smalltongue: forgot that you could consider full attack several standard actions. Sorry it's late here, I'm not thinking totally straight. I see what you mean about the extra attack, but won't using that mean you spend 5 IP on one attack? It's not a big deal at higher levels, but that looks like losing half your IP in one turn aT mid level.

[JaronK]

Factotum 8/Warblade 12. Does everything you want, no problem.

JaronK