Most up to date Tier explanation?

[Invader]

Is this the most current and best explanation of the tier system?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=qd1nfou0avi89v804991o7fof1&topic=5293

[Flickerdart]

I think you will find that tier definitions for a game that's been out of print for several years now don't change very much.

[Invader]

I think you will find that tier definitions for a game that's been out of print for several years now don't change very much.

Ah it doesn't matter, my DM wont even read it he said.

This was prompted by the ToB is more powerful that tier one casters debate from my DM. I was unable to convince him hes wrong.

[Karnith]

Ah it doesn't matter, my DM wont even read it he said.

This was prompted by the ToB is more powerful that tier one casters debate from my DM. I was unable to convince him hes wrong.
I know that it won't actually prove that much about the tier system, but is a duel off the table? Duels are fairly good at showing sheer power level in combat.

Or maybe at least compare the relative power level/capabilities of different builds (e.g. Warblade 5/10/15/20 vis-a-vis Wizard 5/10/15/20)?

Or is he just stonewalling?

[Invader]

Or is he just stonewalling?

Pretty much this. I brought up the 12 headed cryohydra and asked what a ToB character could do that compares to that at 12th level and he said the ToB character is going to last longer because a DM is going to just kill the hydra :smalleek:

[Captnq]

*snort*

ToB... over powered?

I just think of it as an alternate magic system, not unlike Truenaming, Mysteries, Binding, Psionics and Incarnium.

Look, check out my sig file. Send him a copy of the spellbook. Ask him, Straight up. Given a choice between any spell list in the handbook and the powers from ToB, which one would he take? Me? Wizard. Hands down.

Yes, I have some issues with the scaling and wording in ToB. It doesn't seem to flow well.
Starting power, I poke you better.
Intermediate power, I poke you better.
Advanced Power, I can Flex my muscles and shut down the sun.

Iron Heart Surge can shut down an AMF, but can't help me get out of a grapple. WTF?

Yes, I admit, parts are in serious need of rebalancing/rewording, but over all it's not that impressive. All you need is some common sense. Frankly, I just find it... thematically distasteful. I suspect he's just one of those DMs who really likes spellcasters and doesn't want fighters to have nice things.

[Invader]

I think a big part of it for him is a ToB can use his powers all day long while a caster has only a certain number of spells. He asked what I'd do if he threw 15 encounters and us a day.

I said scrolls were cheap lol.

[Talya]

I think a big part of it for him is a ToB can use his powers all day long while a caster has only a certain number of spells. He asked what I'd do if he threw 15 encounters and us a day.

I said scrolls were cheap lol.

Anyone who throws more than four at me before I get to rest and recuperate risks getting a player's handbook jammed up their behind.

[Flickerdart]

I think a big part of it for him is a ToB can use his powers all day long while a caster has only a certain number of spells. He asked what I'd do if he threw 15 encounters and us a day.

I said scrolls were cheap lol.
This argument is a joke. Martial adepts can't run all day - their hit points will run out and they will die. Well, unless they're Crusaders or SSNs who have a punching buddy, but then ability damage or time concerns will still get them.

Meanwhile, a caster can just summon something to fight for them or Web the enemy and then go have tea.

[nyjastul69]

I think a big part of it for him is a ToB can use his powers all day long while a caster has only a certain number of spells. He asked what I'd do if he threw 15 encounters and us a day.

I said scrolls were cheap lol.

ToB characters don't have unlimited access to their maneuvers, and they are still limited by hit points.

[Invader]

Anyone who throws more than four at me before I get to rest and recuperate risks getting a player's handbook jammed up their behind.

Well right not to mention a ToB is also only going to last so long without magic support. Certainly not 15 encounters a day.

Edit* Basically swordsaged lol

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Disclaimer: I agree that Warblades are T3, at least in a combat-oriented game; in a talk-y game they're probably T4. I also agree that wizards and the like are T1.

However...

I always see this "melee is going to run out of HP" argument, and it just doesn't jibe with the consensus on healing availability. All you need is someone with some UMD, or a Cleric dip, or Ranger levels, etc., and a Wand of Lesser Vigor. Recovering HP over the course of an adventuring day should not be a concern, even if you're going through 15 encounters per day.

Again, Wizards are still T1. If a Wizard knows that there's a DM who likes endurance runs (because those aren't boring or monotonous or a complete corner case), he can just get a reserve feat for mop-up. Argument defeated without contradictions.

[Flickerdart]

I always see this "melee is going to run out of HP" argument, and it just doesn't jibe with the consensus on healing availability. All you need is someone with some UMD, or a Cleric dip, or Ranger levels, etc., and a Wand of Lesser Vigor. Recovering HP over the course of an adventuring day should not be a concern, even if you're going through 15 encounters per day.

Pro tip: Wands of Lesser Vigor also don't last forever.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Pro tip: Wands of Lesser Vigor also don't last forever.Pro tip: They cost 750 gp apiece. After low levels, buy multiple wands. And a healing belt, if you're really worried about saving money over the long run. Also I said "over the course of an adventuring day" - as opposed to an adventuring career - specifically because of this.

[fishyfishyfishy]

As someone else mentioned, Reserve Feats are a thing. There are also classes like the Dragonfire Adept and the Warlock. How does he feel about them? They can do their schtick all day as well.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Anyway, the OP's DM is arguing something similar to the Oberoni Fallacy, and he's likely to keep using different iterations of it once the "endurance run" argument gets fully refuted.

The OF says: "The game isn't broken because the DM can fix it."

The OP's DM (basically) says: "T1 classes aren't overpowered because the DM can metagame and arbitrarily counter them."

Refuting these fallacies has the same idea: If you have to take the effort to fix the game/counter the T1, then it was broken/overpowered to begin with.

[nyjastul69]

If we consider wands and such in this argument, then HP's are irrelevant to the discussion. This consideration also makes the Wizard more relevant and less likely to run out of options over a 15 encounter day. The Wizard will usually have more options over the course of any amount of encounters.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If we consider wands and such in this argument, then HP's are irrelevant to the discussion. This consideration also makes the Wizard more relevant and less likely to run out of options over a 15 encounter day. The Wizard will usually have more options over the course of any amount of encounters.Of course, actual level 1 wands are only useful in combat if they don't target a save/scale by caster level. That generally leaves some battlefield control (ex: Blockade) and buffs (ex: Enlarge Person).

[ryu]

Of course, actual level 1 wands are only useful in combat if they don't target a save/scale by caster level. That generally leaves some battlefield control (ex: Blockade) and buffs (ex: Enlarge Person).

And? That's still an entire pile of spell slots the wizard can fill with things which aren't those.

[Flickerdart]

Pro tip: They cost 750 gp apiece. After low levels, buy multiple wands. And a healing belt, if you're really worried about saving money over the long run. Also I said "over the course of an adventuring day" - as opposed to an adventuring career - specifically because of this.
If you're going through 15 encounters per day at low levels, you simply won't be able to buy enough wands.

[ChaoticDitz]

It's not incredibly relevant to the discussion, but I just wanted to point out 15 appropriate-difficulty encounters between rests is only a little more than what my group's DM throws at us. Of course, we have a party specifically built to remain effective the longest time possible, but I think the argument still stands, ToB doesn't make you any longer lasting than you could get without it... In fact, four out of our five party members are normal casters (though admittedly, yes, the fifth guy is a Crusader, so boom, ToB, big deal). So... Yeah. I don't really see the use of banning ToB.

As for the up-to-date tier explanation... The tier system as a whole is kinda JaronK's thing at least in the unofficially official sense, so you probably won't find any other tier explanations unless you run a personal question by him.

EDIT: Supremely swordsage'd... D'oh, that doesn't sound right here

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Ryu: I wasn't directly countering the point; I'm just saying that there are limitations to using low level wands in combat.


If you're going through 15 encounters per day at low levels, you simply won't be able to buy enough wands.Realistically if a low level group is going through 15 encounters per day, even with unlimited out of combat healing, the characters are probably dead from the RNG eventually turning on them. Or, they have a way to avoid taking damage from most fights. All I'm saying is that HP is pretty easy to replenish, especially once you're in mid and higher levels.

Of course, IME it doesn't matter. In a game where most fights are actually challenging instead of boring resource drains, if the casters are out of juice, the group would have to be suicidal to press on, whether or not Fighty McStab is at 100% HP.

[Silva Stormrage]

If you're going through 15 encounters per day at low levels, you simply won't be able to buy enough wands.

Ya frankly in order to get through 15 encounters you need a source of at will healing + permanent minions. Planar Binding + Dominate/Charm will probably work quite well. Or animate dead, or the multitude of other ways for wizard's to do it.

ToB will end up being screwed the instance he fails a save or lose, a wizard has more ways to become immune to them or dodge them, etc.

[Talya]

ToB will end up being screwed the instance he fails a save or lose, a wizard has more ways to become immune to them or dodge them, etc.

While it's not absolutely foolproof, Diamond Mind maneuvers are about the only way to become completely immune to anything that forces a saving throw.

[Coidzor]

No items, Final Destination, Wizard Vs. Warblade.

[Invader]

The point isn't so much that ToB classes could last all day if they had access to unlimited healing because they really could but at that point you're relying on a caster to keep you alive which totally negates the argument.

[13_CBS]

*snort*

ToB... over powered?

Okay, to be completely fair, ToB can be quite overpowered at low-op tables.

In the current game I'm playing (Pathfinder, party is at Level 1, stat generation is 8 + 2d6), the party Half-Orc Barbarian with 22 Str (20 base + 2 from Racial bonus) deals 11 damage minimum when he two-hands his Greatsword. He already one-shots the Goblins we've been coming across, and at most two-shots bosses and such, leaving him with by far the highest body count in the party. The Barbarian has yet to pop a Rage.

In the context of such a game, a Warblade--which in this case would be strictly better than a Barbarian, due to having the same chassis but also maneuvers on top of that--would be pretty overwhelming.

[Crake]

No items, Final Destination, Wizard Vs. Warblade.

Hah, this post actually made me laugh, classic.


Okay, to be completely fair, ToB can be quite overpowered at low-op tables.

In the current game I'm playing (Pathfinder, party is at Level 1, stat generation is 8 + 2d6), the party Half-Orc Barbarian with 22 Str (20 base + 2 from Racial bonus) deals 11 damage minimum when he two-hands his Greatsword. He already one-shots the Goblins we've been coming across, and at most two-shots bosses and such, leaving him with by far the highest body count in the party. The Barbarian has yet to pop a Rage.

In the context of such a game, a Warblade--which in this case would be strictly better than a Barbarian, due to having the same chassis but also maneuvers on top of that--would be pretty overwhelming.

Yeah, I'd have to agree, the fact that ToB classes are high floor, low ceiling classes means that even played badly they're still pretty good, so from a low op perspective, they seem pretty OP.

[lsfreak]

Yeah, I'd have to agree, the fact that ToB classes are high floor, low ceiling classes means that even played badly they're still pretty good, so from a low op perspective, they seem pretty OP.

At low levels, as well. Low levels and low op? Yea, they'll be the strongest thing on the table easily. ToB classes start out in better position than probably every other class and to get something on par with them at low levels takes some hefty optimization.

Well, except druids. :smallamused:

[Chronos]

A wizard isn't the easiest comparison, here. Consider instead a cleric. My current cleric does roughly the same thing that a warblade does: He gets in an enemy's face, and then hits it a bunch of times with a piece of metal. Almost all of his in-combat resources are spent on a per-day basis, not per-encounter: No matter how many encounters you throw at him, he still has his all-day buffs up. And as a result, in a typical combat, he fights probably about as effectively as a warblade.

But in an atypical combat, he can also burn down all of the mooks in an area 100' across, using a single standard action. Or he can discharge a few effects to do significantly more damage for one round, if it's a really important opponent. Or he can protect his allies from a wide variety of spells, or negate their effects afterwards. And out of combat he can use divinations to determine where the party should go next, or whether we should trust the local authorities, or what the capabilities of the enemies are, or where they're hiding out. Or get the party quickly to any place where they want to go. Yes, all of these things have daily-use limitations, but they're all in addition to his unlimited melee capability.

And none of this is even hypothetical: I've actually done all of those things, in a real game, in only the first two sessions.

[Zweisteine]

But can a Warblade:
Fly
Use save or die stuff
Teleport (more than 50 feet)
Scry
Play with the laws of physics
Use maneuvers at range
Reanimate the dead
Create constructs
AND
Create magic items

[13_CBS]

But can a Warblade:
Fly
Use save or die stuff
Teleport (more than 50 feet)
Scry
Play with the laws of physics
Use maneuvers at range
Reanimate the dead
Create constructs
AND
Create magic items


If you're in a campaign where most or all of those things don't matter (I'm in such a campaign at this very moment), Warblades may still seem greatly overpowered.

[IronFist]

I know that it won't actually prove that much about the tier system, but is a duel off the table? Duels are fairly good at showing sheer power level in combat.

Or maybe at least compare the relative power level/capabilities of different builds (e.g. Warblade 5/10/15/20 vis-a-vis Wizard 5/10/15/20)?

Or is he just stonewalling?

PvP has little to no bearing on tiers.

[Gwendol]

Probably not, but has Tiers anything to bring to the table vs a stubborn DM? A demonstration of power could be a lot more convincing. I second the CoDzilla approach.

[Karnith]

PvP has little to no bearing on tiers.
I am aware. Hence why I said "it won't actually prove that much about the tier system."
It's almost like I said that in my post!
However, Invader's DM believes that the ToB classes are more powerful than casters. Power level in combat is easily measured through combat, and hence putting a caster and a ToB class in combat could be convincing where an online document (that the DM apparently refuses to read) might not be.

Of course, running caster and ToB builds through some Same Game Tests would be better, but that's a lot of work.

[GilesTheCleric]

Are you beholden to showing your DM that T1 are better than T3/T4? If not, it seems like the most reasonable thing to do is drop the argument. It sounds like he's not going to change his mind, and I don't think there's much to gain by doing so anyway. Just play the class you want, and enjoy the game.

[Feint's End]

Realistically if a low level group is going through 15 encounters per day, even with unlimited out of combat healing, the characters are probably dead from the RNG eventually turning on them.

Of course, IME it doesn't matter. In a game where most fights are actually challenging instead of boring resource drains, if the casters are out of juice, the group would have to be suicidal to press on, whether or not Fighty McStab is at 100% HP.

And then there came the group consisting of 5 Warforged Crusaders with Adamantine Body :smallbiggrin: ... this group could realistically go all day

Also I totally agree with your last point. Fights and encounters per day shouldn't be ressource draining! If it'S your only option to drain your group of ressources and think that'S good Dming than you are probably in the wrong role. Not that I mean it's a bad thing but it's a bad thing to do alone ... there are many other ways to challenge a group. Timed quests .... big fights ... splitting up (not in big ... just during encounters) etc etc.

[Feint's End]

I am aware. Hence why I said "it won't actually prove that much about the tier system."
It's almost like I said that in my post!
However, Invader's DM believes that the ToB classes are more powerful than casters. Power level in combat is easily measured through combat, and hence putting a caster and a ToB class in combat could be convincing where an online document (that the DM apparently refuses to read) might not be.

Of course, running caster and ToB builds through some Same Game Tests would be better, but that's a lot of work.

You've got a point there. It would definitely proove that Wizards can actually be much stronger in combat than TOB classes and that might convince him. Also if you count in that they have far more utility out of combat than you have your t 1 (also they can swap spells on a daily basis).

Only problem is that he doesn'T say that TOB classes are generally stronger but that they just can go all day sometimes even with infinite healing (crusader). For inexperienced Dm's that can put them in a very bad spot since a lot of them believe infinite healing is that big of a deal. It isn't really .... there are multiple ways to get it by level 1 but if you don't know about them it can become problematic.

[Story]

I think Warblades can fit in even in tier 1 parties. Unless you are a blaster Incantrix or optimized DMM Codzilla, you can't do damage that effectively. Why waste valuable spell slots on an orb that does maybe 40 damage when you have a party member that can do 100+ damage a round every round all day for free? Buffing the mundanes is a lot more efficient than direct damage if the mundanes are optimized.

True they can't teleport or go ethereal or start a wightpocalypse, but their prowess in combat lets you save spell slots to do that instead of burning them on damage or SoD spells. Plus Warblades do get Iron Heart Surge, which is a unique ability that even casters have trouble replicating.

[Harrow]

You're DM doesn't seem to understand how D&D works. You can't throw 15 encounters a day at a party that doesn't want to fight them, because they can use Rope Trick, or Shape Stone, or Portable Holes, or a dozen other things to rest and regain spells.

If the Oberani Fallacy is being used in full, most will just retort that the DM can just set up some form of Race Against the Clock. I would then bring up that the players can't be made to care about the consequences of failure. I've twice had campaigns end because the party said "Nope, no way we can do this" and did their best to mitigate the problem instead of prevent it, failing to do even that in the end.

This may sound like some form of player hissy fit (because, at least a little, it is), but it's in response to a DM hissy fit (setting up a Race Against the Clock-type plot device because the players set up camp after 3 of a planned 15 encounters).

I guess what I'm saying is there isn't necessarily any difference between per-day and per-encounter abilities, which means Wizards are more effective than Warblades. If a DM doesn't like the 15-minute adventuring day, he'll have to do something to make the party not want to rest, not coerce them into going on anyway, because D&D is not a competition ; once the players and DM start fighting each other instead of playing together, a lot less fun is had. Incidentally, ToB is one of the best resources for preventing the 15 minute adventuring day. ToB classes going all day doesn't make them overpowered, it makes them (or classes with similar mechanics) a necessity if you don't want to break narrative flow.

[lytokk]

In response to the 15 encounters a day scenario, that really doesn't seem that far fetched. Last game with my group I ended up with about 9 encounters. They were simply exploring a dungeon, at level 1. 7 groups of kobolds, about 4 kobolds per encounter, differing terrain and room setup, and a few traps. Now, the reason they had so little time to take care of business had more to do with the fact none of them had darkvision, and completely forgot to buy torches. Their only light source was a coffee mug the bard cast Light on.

On the average day, I can see only 1 or 2 encounters, but once you enter a dungeon, averaging 10 encounters a day seems perfectly reasonable.

[Arbane]

Now, the reason they had so little time to take care of business had more to do with the fact none of them had darkvision, and completely forgot to buy torches. Their only light source was a coffee mug the bard cast Light on.


:smalleek:

Really, the second they realized that was the second they should've gone back to town and bought some lights. That was a TPK waiting to happen.

[Harrow]

Their only light source was a coffee mug the bard cast Light on.

So, wait, relying on a daily resource prevented them from replenishing daily resources?

That aside, yes I can see how if a party wanted to, they could go through an entire dungeon without resting. But if they don't want to, it's hard to make them. But a party of Crusaders is more likely to try than a party of Bards, so from a DM and narrative perspective I tend to prefer classes with per-encounter abilities over classes with per-day abilities. I just love the consistency and being able to plan out further.

If a couple people botch saves on the first encounter of the day, the Cleric can run completely out of spells and the moderate encounter load you have set up for the rest of the day is suddenly relatively much more powerful. So you can either force everyone ahead on anyway and risk a TPK. But if they rest, why not blow all of their spells and rest for every fight? Which then makes the encounters much easier, relatively. On the other hand, if we have a Factotum, a Warblade, a Crusader, and a Warlock, I can forcast what my encounters are going to have to deal with much more accurately and much further out.

[lytokk]

day and a half travel away from the closest town... and they only had another day to complete the task.

Whats odd is none of them thought of making a torch out of the scraps of clothing and the spears the kobolds had...

I never said my group was the brightest. One of them had tindertwigs, but no one had a torch. One of them had lantern oil, but no torch... and no one thought to cobble together anything.

*edit
They didn't think of resting. Or their thoughts were "if we rest, the kobolds will just come and get us at night." Was a small dungeon, more like a cave. My point was that over 5 encounters per day is a very reasonable thing in a dungeon.

[Coidzor]

:smalleek:

Really, the second they realized that was the second they should've gone back to town and bought some lights. That was a TPK waiting to happen.

Honestly with players that new, the DM should've just allowed some grace to retcon in some torches. Or recommended they go back and actually properly outfit themselves before entering the dungeon. :smallconfused:

[lytokk]

We've been playing together for years... They aren't new by any means. I even mentioned while they were still in town several times "did anyone buy a light source?" New players, sure, would've retconned something, but no. They're experienced players, with my (the DM) input, they still didn't buy any.

[Arbane]

I never said my group was the brightest.

Was that a pun? :smallbiggrin:

[Feint's End]

You're DM doesn't seem to understand how D&D works. You can't throw 15 encounters a day at a party that doesn't want to fight them, because they can use Rope Trick, or Shape Stone, or Portable Holes, or a dozen other things to rest and regain spells.

If the Oberani Fallacy is being used in full, most will just retort that the DM can just set up some form of Race Against the Clock. I would then bring up that the players can't be made to care about the consequences of failure. I've twice had campaigns end because the party said "Nope, no way we can do this" and did their best to mitigate the problem instead of prevent it, failing to do even that in the end.

This may sound like some form of player hissy fit (because, at least a little, it is), but it's in response to a DM hissy fit (setting up a Race Against the Clock-type plot device because the players set up camp after 3 of a planned 15 encounters).

I guess what I'm saying is there isn't necessarily any difference between per-day and per-encounter abilities, which means Wizards are more effective than Warblades. If a DM doesn't like the 15-minute adventuring day, he'll have to do something to make the party not want to rest, not coerce them into going on anyway, because D&D is not a competition ; once the players and DM start fighting each other instead of playing together, a lot less fun is had. Incidentally, ToB is one of the best resources for preventing the 15 minute adventuring day. ToB classes going all day doesn't make them overpowered, it makes them (or classes with similar mechanics) a necessity if you don't want to break narrative flow.

Very good suggestion here ... Especially the last part. You should sincerely ask your DM to read this thread and discussions on tiers and TOB speficially. Tell him that the game is supposed to be fun for everyone and that you'd like to play a TOB class and you just want to make sure you are both on the same page when it comes to powerlevel.

TOB classes are some of the very most balanced classes in game. They are good at what they are supposed to do and even have some skillpoints to have out of combat stuff too. In no way are they "stronger" than other classes or will other ppl feel useless (sure if you play a warblade and you have a fighter then he will feel overshadowed) but then you might have a problem with group constellation and in that case there will always be one overshadowing the other in the same role.

I've DMed and played with TOB classes while being not one of them and never have I felt useless or being overshadowed by them. It's a groupgame after all.

[erikun]

I think a big part of it for him is a ToB can use his powers all day long while a caster has only a certain number of spells. He asked what I'd do if he threw 15 encounters and us a day.

I said scrolls were cheap lol.
The answer to this question, for both the Wizard and the Warblade, is "be in a good party." The Wizard works best when they can just immobilize opponents and let someone else beat them to death. The Warblade is certainly going to require support to survive all that.

I'd still put my money on the Wizard, though. Solid Fog, Cloudkill, Walls of X, Fly, Invisibility, summons, and even good ol' Fireball will get a party through a lot more encounters than a few ways to make saves or do damage. And this isn't considering scrolls (which are really for niche spells like Comprehend Languages), or wands (for repeated use spells, like Knock), or prep spells (Planar Binding), which just make those 15 encounters entirely doable by the Wizard themselves.

[Kioras]

If they do not want to allow ToB, thats perfectly fine if the reason makes sense, as not wanting to allow too many varient systems in the game. Or having to learn and manage another system.

If it is because of a lack of understanding of casters power, and melee can't have good things, just offer instead to play a Cleric, or druid and go CoDzilla in game.

Or play a batman or god wizard. Pull out the Mailman sorceror. Or an optimized item creation artificer, who providers everything he needs on the ultra cheap for 15% or less of creation price.

a Gish of some sort would come close to replicating the stuff a ToB class can do, with a lot more power.

[Invader]

Well at this point its largely irrelevant. At our last session he said he had the same argument with a friend of his so they had a 4 martial VS 4 casters match and he said he beat him every time.

I challenged him to the same match but while we were ironing out the rules it had to be second level (when wizards really start to shine and then he said if I picked all spells that targeted his will save I was metagaming. Of course the only offensive spells worth casting at first level all have will saves. He also said that a fighter was more versatile than a wizard and we had to quit arguing shortly after that...

[LordBlades]

He also said that a fighter was more versatile than a wizard and we had to quit arguing shortly after that...

Did he provide any argument for that position? I mean a fighter has no SP to speak of, almost no class skills to speak of, and once you select your 'class features' (which are identical to what everybody else gets, aka feats), they're locked forever (barring retraining or DCFS). If anything, fighter is probably the epitome of 'not-versatility'.

[erikun]

Well at this point its largely irrelevant. At our last session he said he had the same argument with a friend of his so they had a 4 martial VS 4 casters match and he said he beat him every time.

I challenged him to the same match but while we were ironing out the rules it had to be second level (when wizards really start to shine and then he said if I picked all spells that targeted his will save I was metagaming. Of course the only offensive spells worth casting at first level all have will saves. He also said that a fighter was more versatile than a wizard and we had to quit arguing shortly after that...
To be fair, Wizards are not all that great at 1st and 2nd character levels. Yes, I'm sure a lot of people will argue otherwise, insisting that the Color Spray/scythe coup-de-grace is a valid playstyle, but I never found that to be true.

On the other hand, Clerics are quite good and Druid absolutely rock at 1st/2nd level. Your average Cleric can have equal stats and equipment to your average Fighter as such a low level, along with spells and healing. Druids get an animal companion and spontaneous summons, which means they can easily outnumber the other party. And while a party of four Wizards isn't best, a single Wizard with Sleep/Magic Missile will be a great support for two Druids and a Cleric, or some other combination.

[Big Fau]

Well at this point its largely irrelevant. At our last session he said he had the same argument with a friend of his so they had a 4 martial VS 4 casters match and he said he beat him every time.

I challenged him to the same match but while we were ironing out the rules it had to be second level (when wizards really start to shine and then he said if I picked all spells that targeted his will save I was metagaming. Of course the only offensive spells worth casting at first level all have will saves. He also said that a fighter was more versatile than a wizard and we had to quit arguing shortly after that...

That's it? 2nd level 4 Casters VS 4 Martial Adepts? Druid/Cleric/Wizard/Wizard=GG with the right spell selections (namely Nerveskitter).

Entangle doesn't offer a Will save, and the Wizards can get Pyrotechnics via a feat. That battle is trivially easy for the casters.

[lytokk]

Normally I'm a proponent of martial classes, but in this situation it really favors the martials, mostly with the no will saves. What wizard is not going to pick up a couple of will saves, especially at low levels. I think this guy is giving us fighter likers a bad name. I know fighters aren't the best class in the game, heck, they aren't even the best melee class, I just like playing them.

If at all possible, can you get access to some of the other tier 1 classes? More than wizards. Druids, clerics? Heck, a party of 4 druids at level 2? Or is his beef only with wizards?

Best advice I could give is just let it go and shine out in game. If he prevents you from using your full power, since you've already talked to him about this, pack up your dice, thank him for his time, and politely leave.

[Chronos]

...and then he said if I picked all spells that targeted his will save I was metagaming.
Why, were you looking over his shoulder when he was making his characters? That'd be metagaming, sure... But if it's just that you knew that most folks who swing a sword are more vulnerable to attacks on their minds than spellcasters are, that's something that a smart person (like, say, a wizard) would be expected to know in-game.

[Flickerdart]

Will saves are the lowest among weak monsters; any hedge wizard's apprentice's familiar's flea would know that and pack a few spells to take advantage. It's no more metagaming than bringing a sword because it's more suitable than fists for cutting flesh.

[Doug Lampert]

I think a big part of it for him is a ToB can use his powers all day long while a caster has only a certain number of spells. He asked what I'd do if he threw 15 encounters and us a day.

I said scrolls were cheap lol.

What in the world does he imagine a fighter does in that situation? He runs out of HP and DIES. (The wizard rope tricks or teleports home and prepares more spells, the cleric fights almost as well as the fighter and can heal, the druid fights BETTER than the fighter and can heal).

Fighters have LESS endurance than any full caster class with CLW on its spell list, it's just that some people CLAIM that the problem is that the cleric ran out of spells, rather than noticing that that only happened because the fighter was running out of HP.


I always see this "melee is going to run out of HP" argument, and it just doesn't jibe with the consensus on healing availability. All you need is someone with some UMD, or a Cleric dip, or Ranger levels, etc., and a Wand of Lesser Vigor. Recovering HP over the course of an adventuring day should not be a concern, even if you're going through 15 encounters per day.

If healing is freely available then so are other items and wands, and guess what, a full caster uses them better and gets them cheaper. Half price on wands from level 5 or 6 on, and at that level the wands are a significant cost.


A wizard isn't the easiest comparison, here. Consider instead a cleric.

Or Druid. It's fairly trivial to make a druid who does little other than summon and heal and whose summons and animal companion will out-endurance the fighter.

[Red Fel]

If he keeps moving the goal posts, it's entirely possible that he'll refuse to acknowledge a legitimate win when it happens, assuming the test ever gets run.

You could always try something like the Same Game Test, where instead of competing against each other, you compete against a series of challenges and see who is more successful.

But chances are if he would keep shifting stance with regard to the PvP, he'd do the same with regard to the SGT.

As a rule, when people refuse to acknowledge that T1s are simply more versatile and capable than T3s-T5s, despite evidence to the contrary, you have three options. You could accept their refusal to acknowledge the facts on the ground, and keep playing, hoping that it doesn't become an obstacle. You could politely leave, and try to find a group with people who don't bury their heads in the sand. Or you could CoDzilla it up, hyper-optimize, burn bridges with the group, and end up leaving anyway.

And with regard to the "fight all day" argument, that's absurd for the reasons stated above: Nobody fights all day. When one person runs out of resources, the party stops. Maybe that's a caster. (Probably that's a caster.) But if a Fighter or Rogue got hit too hard and needs more than a slight patch-job, it's time to hop inside the Rope Trick and set up camp for the night. To say that Fighters or Warblades with access to light healing items can keep going all day ignores the fact that even if they could, they wouldn't, because nobody ever does. Period, full-stop.

[Vaz]

Eh, just send him up against a Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10.

Spontaneous SNA D3+1 Unicorns sorts out Healing issues, if you don't already have it from Wild Shape.

Your spells are fine when you can Shapechange into a Zodar or Pit Fiend, and with 200 minutes a casting that is every other round (you have 1000 such rounds) wishing up a load of Pearls of Power makes you capable of having infinite spells, basically.

Lets not even start on the Shared Spells Shapechange with your Animal Companion.

Alternatively, let him run his Warblade 10/Eternal Blade 10 or whatever. The just run up with Astral projected Wizard, Greater Celerity Time Stop and Gate in a load of Dragons etc

Lastly, use your Psion to revert time whenever he dies (After turning into a War Troll).

[Invader]

I forgot to mention it had to be core only. Even at that I'm confident I could win it just frustrating lol.

[Invader]

Will saves are the lowest among weak monsters; any hedge wizard's apprentice's familiar's flea would know that and pack a few spells to take advantage. It's no more metagaming than bringing a sword because it's more suitable than fists for cutting flesh.

Right, he suggested an urban environment that had people and guards for the battle so I said it was metagaming for his fighter to be walking around a guarded city in full plate with all his weapons. He disagreed...:smallconfused:

[Flickerdart]

Right, he suggested an urban environment that had people and guards for the battle so I said it was metagaming for his fighter to be walking around a guarded city in full plate with all his weapons. He disagreed...:smallconfused:
In an urban environment, a wizard casting Will-negates spells could non-injuriously deal with assailants, while a wizard packing Fort- and Ref-save spells would be arrested on the spot for trying to poison or blow up people. Harmless sleep is by far the most ethical choice for an urban wizard.

[erikun]

Right, he suggested an urban environment that had people and guards for the battle so I said it was metagaming for his fighter to be walking around a guarded city in full plate with all his weapons. He disagreed...:smallconfused:
At second level, I'd prefer a bit of Magic Missile or Summon Monster along with my Sleep/Silent Image/Charm Person, unless I'm in a party that I trust to take care of physical combat for me. If we're talking about 4 Fighters against 4 Wizards specifically, then the Wizards will have a hard time with things at that point. 4 Fighters against 4 spellcasters will definitely fall in favor of the spellcasters, and I'd have the Wizard probably prepare Enlarge Person/Magic Weapon for the more melee oriented characters.

Also, ask him what spell he thinks a Wizard would prepare in an urban environment. Burning Hands, Cause Fear, and Ray of Enfeeblement are some pretty hard to justify choices for walking around in a "friendly" city. :smallconfused:

[Vaz]

I forgot to mention it had to be core only. Even at that I'm confident I could win it just frustrating lol.

He single handedly managed to hamper himself beyond any capability of catching up with Clr/Drd/Wiz

And all and every level.

[lytokk]

Wait, you're limited to core, and he gets the TOB? Not saying a core wizard couldn't get the job done, just saying ToB isn't core.

This sounds like one of the guys you're never going to convince. Best you can do, is show him what a tier 1 can do and break the game wide open. Sometimes people are so set in their ways that you can't convince them through words, you'll have to do it through actions and let the conclusion come to him as you enchant the big bad fighter he sends your way.

[Invader]

Wait, you're limited to core, and he gets the TOB? Not saying a core wizard couldn't get the job done, just saying ToB isn't core.

This sounds like one of the guys you're never going to convince. Best you can do, is show him what a tier 1 can do and break the game wide open. Sometimes people are so set in their ways that you can't convince them through words, you'll have to do it through actions and let the conclusion come to him as you enchant the big bad fighter he sends your way.

No he doesn't like ToB, he was going to use core martial characters.

[Flickerdart]

No he doesn't like ToB, he was going to use core martial characters.
"Martial characters" meaning different classes? Do you get different classes too?

[Big Fau]

No he doesn't like ToB, he was going to use core martial characters.

Druids (Entangle, SNA 1, Shillelagh) could do it easily, and a Cleric is going to be better than at least half of those enemies. The Wizard can still cast Grease and get a 2-round running start (technically, avoiding an encounter counts as beating it for XP), but 2nd level is rough if you can't use Will SoDs.

[Invader]

Yes I was going to pick from the big 3 but we're not doing it now. I was ever really worried about losing it was just the increasingly list of absurd rules and statements that was driving me crazy.

[demigodus]

Human Druids with Riding Dogs, Spell Focus: Conjuration, and Augment Summoning.

Between the Riding Dogs and Summon Nature's Ally for Wolves, those druids should be pretty tough.

Possibly start off with entangle, just to trap your opponents.

He said that having all prepared spells be will saves is metagaming. So dropping off 1 or 2 color sprays or such is perfectly allowed.

I'm sure there is some cheep trick that clerics could do as well...

[erikun]

Human Druids with Riding Dogs, Spell Focus: Conjuration, and Augment Summoning.

Between the Riding Dogs and Summon Nature's Ally for Wolves, those druids should be pretty tough.

Possibly start off with entangle, just to trap your opponents.

He said that having all prepared spells be will saves is metagaming. So dropping off 1 or 2 color sprays or such is perfectly allowed.

I'm sure there is some cheep trick that clerics could do as well...
Bless for +1 to attacks for all allies, Divine Favor for another +1 attack/damage, Magic Weapon for another +1 attack/damage, Shield of Faith for +2 AC.

If you want to swap one of those Will-save spells for Enlarge Person, then just cast that on the Cleric and let them go to town using 2H on a Morningstar. Assuming a starting 16 STR, that's +5 to hit and 2d6+7 damage with reach from the Cleric. (Assuming two of the Cleric buffs from above.) That's no doubt better than anything the Fighters can put out, and they still have to deal with the Druids and the Wizard using Sleep/Magic Missile.

[Augmental]

Pretty much this. I brought up the 12 headed cryohydra and asked what a ToB character could do that compares to that at 12th level and he said the ToB character is going to last longer because a DM is going to just kill the hydra :smalleek:

Wait, a wizard polymorphed into a 12-headed cryohydra or a 12-headed cryohydra fought in the wild? If it's the former, the DM's saying that the ToB class is overpowered because he can just kill the wizard if he uses his most powerful tricks (but he can't do the same thing with the ToB character for some reason? :smallconfused:); if it's the latter, he's saying the ToB character is overpowered because... the DM can kill his own encounters? :smallconfused::smalleek:

[Coidzor]

Yes I was going to pick from the big 3 but we're not doing it now. I was ever really worried about losing it was just the increasingly list of absurd rules and statements that was driving me crazy.

Sounds like you need him as your DM like you need a urinary tract infection. :smallconfused:


We've been playing together for years... They aren't new by any means. I even mentioned while they were still in town several times "did anyone buy a light source?" New players, sure, would've retconned something, but no. They're experienced players, with my (the DM) input, they still didn't buy any.

All of my what.

[ShadowFireLance]

Quite honestly, at this point, you make him a challenge.

1 20th level *Insert Martial Character* against your 20th level Wizard.
40ft away. Nothing else, Items, whatever you want, just nothing except a flat plain.

Pick Gate, Pick Time stop, Pick Shapechange. The rest of the spells are pretty much not needed.
Time stop. Shapechange into thing of your choice. Pit fiend, for example.
Then laugh. Or Gate in something scary. Either way.

If he doesn't want to do something like that, tell him it's full power, both on equal terms, and if he backs out of that, it's cause he's scared of losing.

[Clistenes]

*snort*

ToB... over powered?

I just think of it as an alternate magic system, not unlike Truenaming, Mysteries, Binding, Psionics and Incarnium.

Look, check out my sig file. Send him a copy of the spellbook. Ask him, Straight up. Given a choice between any spell list in the handbook and the powers from ToB, which one would he take? Me? Wizard. Hands down.

Yes, I have some issues with the scaling and wording in ToB. It doesn't seem to flow well.
Starting power, I poke you better.
Intermediate power, I poke you better.
Advanced Power, I can Flex my muscles and shut down the sun.

Iron Heart Surge can shut down an AMF, but can't help me get out of a grapple. WTF?

Yes, I admit, parts are in serious need of rebalancing/rewording, but over all it's not that impressive. All you need is some common sense. Frankly, I just find it... thematically distasteful. I suspect he's just one of those DMs who really likes spellcasters and doesn't want fighters to have nice things.

Thank you very much for making my life easier. I was creating a document like your Spell Lists and Spells recopilations for my own use, but now I'm just going to use yours. :smallbiggrin:

[AMFV]

Quite honestly, at this point, you make him a challenge.

1 20th level *Insert Martial Character* against your 20th level Wizard.
40ft away. Nothing else, Items, whatever you want, just nothing except a flat plain.

Pick Gate, Pick Time stop, Pick Shapechange. The rest of the spells are pretty much not needed.
Time stop. Shapechange into thing of your choice. Pit fiend, for example.
Then laugh. Or Gate in something scary. Either way.

If he doesn't want to do something like that, tell him it's full power, both on equal terms, and if he backs out of that, it's cause he's scared of losing.

Actually the Wizard could have a lot of trouble in this challenge, depending on the opposing build. Since you can y'know, lose initiative...

Wizards are not always great at PvP, they may not be great at combat, the tier system isn't designed to measure that and using it for that purpose is probably not going to work.

It measures versatility. A wizard can change his party role every day with no warning, and is able to adapt to many many different type of scenarios, thus presenting a good example of what the tier system is intended to measure, which is usefulness.

If the "Why Each Class is In It's Tier" Page doesn't convince him, then nothing will and it's not really worth debating.

[LordBlades]

Actually the Wizard could have a lot of trouble in this challenge, depending on the opposing build. Since you can y'know, lose initiative...

Wizards are not always great at PvP, they may not be great at combat, the tier system isn't designed to measure that and using it for that purpose is probably not going to work.

It measures versatility. A wizard can change his party role every day with no warning, and is able to adapt to many many different type of scenarios, thus presenting a good example of what the tier system is intended to measure, which is usefulness.

If the "Why Each Class is In It's Tier" Page doesn't convince him, then nothing will and it's not really worth debating.

Foresight+Celerity ensures you always go first.

[Story]

Foresight+Celerity ensures you always go first.

Yes but that's not until level 17.

[LordBlades]

Yes but that's not until level 17.

The post AMFV quoted was referring to a 20th level wizard.

[AMFV]

Foresight+Celerity ensures you always go first.

True, but it wasn't included in the scenario. Which only stated Time Stop, Shapechange, and Gate. Also you have to be allowed to have cast foresight in the past 200 minutes (or 24 hours if you have a means of persisting it).It isn't reasonable to assume that combo will be on the entire day. Although there are ways of making that a possibility.

I've noticed that buff durations are something that frequently gets glossed over in PvP debates, and assuming a pre-buff is certainly going to tip things in the wizards favor over a melee opponent, without that it may still swing the other way.

[Zubrowka74]

I see this written often in this forum these days, yet it seems everyone is forgetting that the tier system is about flexibility, not raw numbers. Of course a low level Wizard will have limited spells, even if your taking into account that a single one can shut down encounters. But by mid-level it's less and less of an issue.

[Lans]

Foresight+Celerity ensures you always go first.

Not necessarily, Iajutsu masters strike with no thought might be able to trump foresight

[LordBlades]

Not necessarily, Iajutsu masters strike with no thought might be able to trump foresight

Not really., IMO at least. It might require some resolution whether Iaijutsu master gets the surprise round vs somebody with Foresight (which can't be surprised), but there's nothing in the Strike with no thought text that cancels 'you are never flat-footed' part of Foresight, so even if the Iaijutsu Master gets that surprise round, you can still use immediate actions (in this case Celerity).

[Lans]

Not really., IMO at least. It might require some resolution whether Iaijutsu master gets the surprise round vs somebody with Foresight (which can't be surprised), but there's nothing in the Strike with no thought text that cancels 'you are never flat-footed' part of Foresight, so even if the Iaijutsu Master gets that surprise round, you can still use immediate actions (in this case Celerity).

Add in gestalt for Eternal Blade and the ability to use Island in Time