PDA

View Full Version : Homebrew Question.



UmpteenthDoctor
2013-11-01, 09:09 PM
Hello those players on the playground,

I am going to be working on a Homebrew soon for fun but maybe I will play it if it works out alright.

Its going to be a Divine Caster, based on a warrior for the gods (Not a Paladin) this class is like an uber cleric in some ways.

I need a name for it first. I am thinking Templar or Apostle but I don't know.

The think about this class is it is based entirely on the Recharge Magic Variant magic rule of Unearthed Arcana (pg 157)

So please read it or find it here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm)

Now I don't know if this system would be better balanced with more Spells per day something like the Sorcerer or something like the Wizard with a more restrictive one.

In fact a Wizard -1 is a possibility. But also with the way the spells work and the spell pools work I might go with more as it can easily stop most casting if you pick the wrong spells.

I was thinking of using the Spellcaster (Generic) from UA as well, or at least its Spells Per Day if I needed to use a little more then normal.

Another big idea I had was that these are warriors of the Gods, mostly the gods of magic. So I was thinking that for every time they reach a level in which they gain access to a new spell level they can gain their Ability Modifier (Likely Wisdom)[Or half their modifier] in Arcane Study, learning Arcane spells from the Wizard/Sorcerer list or a list they pick at character creation.

This would be a class feature and I would likely involve selecting schools that they can choose from and banning other schools to restrict them taking those spells at least not without penalty.

The idea behind this is, they learn the magic of their enemies to better fight them. However they cast these Arcane spells as Divine Spells so long as they are followers of a god of magic (I believe the gods should be able to allow a spell to be made divine rather then arcane)

Any thoughts, inputs, or advice?

toapat
2013-11-01, 10:28 PM
i "suggest" that you read psionics, as even UA admits that the system is entirely overpowered at all times, where as psionics is typically regarded as highly balanced compared to other systems.


as far as the rest is concerned, my most recent homebrew paladin (indirect link in my signature) mostly fits the desired results to a T

TheFamilarRaven
2013-11-01, 10:33 PM
Its going to be a Divine Caster, based on a warrior for the gods (Not a Paladin) this class is like an uber cleric in some ways.

I need a name for it first. I am thinking Templar or Apostle but I don't know.

Hmm, melee class that casts arcane spells as divine eh? Ok, lets get to work. Heres some thoughts, do with them what you will.

-DON'T do an uber Cleric. Cleric is already one of the most versatile and powerful classes in the game :smallsmile:.

Templar sounds like an alright name. Apostle doesn't really sound like a fighter type name.


The think about this class is it is based entirely on the Recharge Magic Variant magic rule of Unearthed Arcana (pg 157)

So please read it or find it here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm)

Now I don't know if this system would be better balanced with more Spells per day something like the Sorcerer or something like the Wizard with a more restrictive one.

i can't say i'm 100% confident in my understanding of this variant but here's a few thoughts.

-If this rule is a variant, I would make the class spells function like normal (spells per day) and THEN worry about the recharge. If you don't want spells per day, then just add a recharge Class feature that explains the system, so that people understand this class's spells recharge




In fact a Wizard -1 is a possibility. But also with the way the spells work and the spell pools work I might go with more as it can easily stop most casting if you pick the wrong spells.

I was thinking of using the Spellcaster (Generic) from UA as well, or at least its Spells Per Day if I needed to use a little more then normal.

I am assuming you mean that this class gains wizard spells as a wizard, except he uses his class levels in this class -1 to determine his access to spell.

quite frankly, if this is the case, then this class gets way too many spells for a melee class. If he gets the exact same spells as a wizard, just slightly weaker, AND he can cast them as divine spells, you have a little bit of a balance issue.


Another big idea I had was that these are warriors of the Gods, mostly the gods of magic. So I was thinking that for every time they reach a level in which they gain access to a new spell level they can gain their Ability Modifier (Likely Wisdom)[Or half their modifier] in Arcane Study, learning Arcane spells from the Wizard/Sorcerer list or a list they pick at character creation.

This would be a class feature and I would likely involve selecting schools that they can choose from and banning other schools to restrict them taking those spells at least not without penalty.

The idea behind this is, they learn the magic of their enemies to better fight them. However they cast these Arcane spells as Divine Spells so long as they are followers of a god of magic (I believe the gods should be able to allow a spell to be made divine rather then arcane)

Any thoughts, inputs, or advice?

As for Divine warriors that use spells to fight spells, that's pretty cool. I recommend looking at the Spell Thief from CAd, the regular Paladin for ideas on how to blend anti-magic with divine warrior. Alternatively, you could check out my PrC that does something similar to this, The Slayers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=305199)

As for spells, I am imagining this class would need a unique spell list, or a very limited spell list. They should NOT have access to 9th level spells. That being said they of course we'll need class features to make them awesome. At the most, 6th level spells, because hybrid classes can't be good at both melee and casting. If there is a class like that then it sounds horribly silly.

UmpteenthDoctor
2013-11-01, 10:38 PM
Well thats called the Spell Point system, also found in the UA book, in fact just under the Recharge System.

I am aware it CAN be Overpowered, but the real restriction is that it cuts down on things Wizards do such as Planer Binding, Wish, and all the other things we see them spam out to get unreal and game breaking power.

Under this system for example it does restrict Planer Binding to once per 24 hours. A Wish spell is a General Spell meaning you roll a 1d6+1 to see how many rounds your level 9 spell slots are locked out. So even if you cast Wish.. you cannot cast any other level 9 spell till those rounds pass. Which range from 2 rounds to 7 rounds. Most combat at level 17-20 doesn't last 7 rounds.

So while yes it is not perfect it does prevent a lot of that gamebreaking style. Now of course that does not stop them from doing scrolls of those spells and so forth.

EDIT:
No no I meant Spells Per Day wise. IE at 20 every level would have 4 spell slots in it as opposed to the 6 in every level from the Sorcerer.

Well Clerics can do some serious physical combat and has access to 9th level spells.

My issue with Hybrids are they are not good at anything, they are Meh at two things. Custom Spell List might be ok, but the problem falls into very Niche style of play. I.e Beguiler where as you only have social influencing spells and mind altering spells. Where if you fight things that are immune to those or have high will saves you might as well be holding the parties coats at the door and let them handle the problem for you. A Wizard could mimic the Beguiler list one day and have his fun and then go a different direction the next day.

There is the issue of it appearing over powered to be able to cast 9th level spells and be good with a sword however Clerics do this all the time and no one seems to mention the sword aspect. In fact if you made them Priest with no armor or weapon skills I don't honestly think much would change them.

I know Paladins are suppose to be the big heavy armor with light spells. Except the Paladin sucks, It can do nither very well. Its a RP class not a functioning one. I have seen a bard level a a paladin in a duel with really no problems.

I want a divine warrior who is actually good at a bit of both, spells given by the gods but also empowered to fight as sword of god.

Basically think a Cleric who has the paladin/Crusader style abilities with a level 9 progression but a Sorcerers spell known and spells per day list? Maybe expand the spells known to include spells from Paladin and Cleric and give them a decent amount of the spells. Maybe more like the Psions Powers Known, just give that for Spells. But have the spells recharge so that while it is limited in spells known it can continue to use them more often then the Cleric.

toapat
2013-11-01, 11:06 PM
I am aware it CAN be Overpowered, but the real restriction is that it cuts down on things Wizards do such as Planer Binding, Wish, and all the other things we see them spam out to get unreal and game breaking power.

actually, it doesnt deal with any of that.

to Directly quote the tier compendium: "The ability to Solve any encounter as a standard action"

access to 9th level spells ends up granting that

UmpteenthDoctor
2013-11-01, 11:09 PM
Sorcerers can access level 9 powers yet are not Tier 1 classes. And I don't care about the tier of a class.

If that is a problem then Wizards, Druids, and Cleric are too powerful and need to be auto banned from all games.

The argument always comes down to "Well the Tier 1s can do it so you don't need them do it too" Well there are more then one tier 1 class.

I do understand your comment and I do agree its not MUCH of a problem solver but its better then being able to cast Planer Binding 4 times in 4 rounds just because they can.

Yes it makes all Casters stronger but I am asking for a help with a balance of it. If its focused on 1 caster then it shouldn't be to bad.

TheFamilarRaven
2013-11-01, 11:33 PM
EDIT:

No no I meant Spells Per Day wise. IE at 20 every level would have 4 spell slots in it as opposed to the 6 in every level from the Sorcerer.

If you could quote what your responding to, and post a new post entirely it would be easier to respond in turn. Because adding an edit to answer a question runs the very high risk of it being overlooked. THAT being said.

Ok, thanks for the clarification on what you mean. IMO, the amount of spells per day is going to be determined by the type of caster you make them. If they end up being spontaneous, they will have more spells per day, and less spells known, if preparatory, vice versa.


Well Clerics can do some serious physical combat and has access to 9th level spells.

They have an average BaB, Clerics don't end up being good with a weapon, the best spells for melee that I can think of off the top of my head is Divine Might and the Inflict line of touch spells. In otherwords, the Cleric is a spellcasting class, no one plays a cleric to be a melee combatant.

Edit: i shouldn't say no one, but it is exceedingly rare to have people play a strictly melee Cleric.


My issue with Hybrids are they are not good at anything, they are Meh at two things. Custom Spell List might be ok, but the problem falls into very Niche style of play. I.e Beguiler where as you only have social influencing spells and mind altering spells. Where if you fight things that are immune to those or have high will saves you might as well be holding the parties coats at the door and let them handle the problem for you. A Wizard could mimic the Beguiler list one day and have his fun and then go a different direction the next day.

There is nothing wrong with a niche class. what is important about a class is if it has role and if it performs that role well. The more roles a class can fill, the generally more powerful that class is, provided it does though roles well. Often times, creating a niche class is easier than making a versatile class. Because Wizard and Cleric already cover those, so making another tier 1 calss that is thematically different from those two is a little difficult, because what I've seen happen most of the time is that homebrew just takes those classes, and adds something in addition to the already impressive amount of spells.


I want a divine warrior who is actually good at a bit of both, spells given by the gods but also empowered to fight as sword of god.

Basically think a Cleric who has the paladin/Crusader style abilities with a level 9 progression but a Sorcerers spell known and spells per day list? Maybe expand the spells known to include spells from Paladin and Cleric and give them a decent amount of the spells. Maybe more like the Psions Powers Known, just give that for Spells. But have the spells recharge so that while it is limited in spells known it can continue to use them more often then the Cleric.

What you're talking about now, it would probably be easier to just make a fix of the Favored Soul class from CD. Essentially, they're just sorcerer clerics. They have decent melee abilities, wear (medium?) armor, and are divine casters. The only thing they're missing from your idea is the Crusader type abilities.

toapat
2013-11-01, 11:40 PM
Sorcerers can access level 9 powers yet are not Tier 1 classes.

Sorcerers are not tier 1 specifically because they can only break an aspect of the game as a standard action. when they say the game, they mean each, and every single aspect of the game without exception.


however, a Wizard, at first level, can invalidate combat entirely with careful and judicious use of Color spray as is, let alone if they get an unlimited number of uses of it per day.


the reason i said use psionics is because of a number of factors, it is much easier to balance a capped number of powerpoints and unique manifestations per day then having 40-60 spellslots prepared with no cap of resources, and barring infinite time dilation, is balanced entirely within itself because no single spell is broken.

UmpteenthDoctor
2013-11-01, 11:50 PM
Agreed the edit was iffy but I saw somewhere your not suppose to double post.

Who said a Caster has to be ONLY good at casting?

Isn't the Divine spells of a Cleric considered less powerful overall? I mean the Cleric learns them all when he hits that level which is why they are tier 1.

If a class didn't have every spells on the list and had to pick spells known then it is considered to be far less powerful.

My issue really comes down to feel and flow of a class. Paladins are one of the worse built things I have ever seen and this includes my first attempt at a bird house in shop in middle school.

Favored Soul is not bad, has minor interesting features but most of which come far to late to be of any use.

I always get this feeling that every class must be build inferior to the Tier 1 classes and in some cases made inferior to the tier 1 classes in that regard.

Why shouldn't a paladin who is literally gods soldier on earth not be a powerful divine user, even if he doesn't possess instant universe ending spell and ect.

Niches are fine I like the Beguiler and so on, but my point is.. where is the rule that says the Wizard and Cleric need to always be the End All Beat All of all D&D classes.

The Paladin would be very interesting so would the Favored Soul but they feel purposefully nerfed like someone said "The Cleric and the Wizard are the glass ceiling"

A Paladin with Cleric spell casting would still suck till level 6 when they first get spell casting abilities.

For example the Paladin seems like it was purposefully stuck with the worst abilities in the game. Yeah Lay on Hands is a nice little trick.. if you don't have a wound of cure something or other on hand But its limited to points of healing per day. Smite Evil.. is 5 times a day at lvl 20. A +20 damage mod.. 5 times a day at level 20 when 20 HP doesn't really matter in most combat. At this point your caster is out pacing damage by far and has been for many levels now.

The Steed is something.. it can be useful for builds sure but really look at the Paladin list of abilities.. how they made this a class for base is insane.

Yes I know Sorcerers are not Tier 1, I do like your Paladin fixes but just making weak abilities more plentiful doesn't make them better.

Yes Wizards are capable of becoming the most powerful thing in existence because they can and thats it. They can learn anything they want and so forth and then cast it and use scrolls and wands to further screw the universe up.

I am familair with the Psionics or Spell Point system. Its not a bad system per say but it doesn't solve any problems. You can cast the same powerful spell over and over again so long as you have the spell points to do so. Think Planer Binding or Wish over and over again so long as they have the points they need.

I do see your point but all three systems can be abused, the normal spells known/spell slot system is far from perfect and is easily abused.

TheFamilarRaven
2013-11-02, 12:13 AM
Who said a Caster has to be ONLY good at casting?

No one, it's just kind of understood. i don't think theres a core class, or a class in ANY of the expansion books that has a class with access to 9th level spells, and a BaB progression better than average. The same goes for skill points, there is no caster with access to 9th level spells that get 6 +INT mod skill points per level as well. If they have a class like that, the spell selection is probably VERY limited, such as specific spells learned.

Also, double posting means posting the same thing twice, don't worry about posting a reply to something, even if it's a little short. Provided it's not just "cool".


Isn't the Divine spells of a Cleric considered less powerful overall? I mean the Cleric learns them all when he hits that level which is why they are tier 1.

Yes, but they wear heavy armor, have an average BaB and decent hitpoints. So any slight lack in power they might have over arcane is made up by the fact they don't die so fast.


If a class didn't have every spells on the list and had to pick spells known then it is considered to be far less powerful.

I would consider it less versatile. Power is different from versatility. Remember that sorcerers are more powerful than wizards in a specific field if the sorcerer specializes.


My issue really comes down to feel and flow of a class. Paladins are one of the worse built things I have ever seen and this includes my first attempt at a bird house in shop in middle school.
maybe you should check out the CW Samurai then :smalltongue:


Favored Soul is not bad, has minor interesting features but most of which come far to late to be of any use.

Which is why I said to make a "fix" of the class to suit your needs, because I feel as though you're not talking about a class that is unique enough to be a class on it's own, and would be easier to make if you just altered an already existing class. There's nothing wrong with that, people do it all the time.


I always get this feeling that every class must be build inferior to the Tier 1 classes and in some cases made inferior to the tier 1 classes in that regard.

Understandable. But I would say that creating a class that interesting is better than creating a tier 1. Also again, it's because that since Wizard and Clerics are so versatile, it's difficult (not impossible) to come up with a class that has the same versatility and power, but thematically different.


Why shouldn't a paladin who is literally gods soldier on earth not be a powerful divine user, even if he doesn't possess instant universe ending spell and ect.

Because the Gods said so? :smalltongue:



The Paladin would be very interesting so would the Favored Soul but they feel purposefully nerfed like someone said "The Cleric and the Wizard are the glass ceiling"

The thing is, Wizards and Clerics are considered the most powerful/most versatile classes in the gmae (I.E Tier 1's) so having them be the "glass ceiling" helps homebrewers say "Ok, is my class more powerful than these two classes? If so, then it's probably too powerful to play".


A Paladin with Cleric spell casting would still suck till level 6 when they first get spell casting abilities.

Would still "suck" when compared to a Cleric maybe, and that would only be in terms of spells. Don't forget that Class Features can make up for lack of spell casting capabilities. Whcih may still "suck" in the case of the actual Paladin, but i am speaking in general.



Yes I know Sorcerers are not Tier 1, I do like your Paladin fixes but just making weak abilities more plentiful doesn't make them better.

If it helps them do what they're supposed to do that yes it does.

toapat
2013-11-02, 12:21 AM
*Nuke it from orbit*

So, So, SO much wrong here

in no particular order:

Paladin class features: The only weak paladin class feature is Remove Disease, and everyone replaces that if they have any sense. at 5th level a Paladin's smite evil will be equivalent to a hit from a 20th level barbarian and it still has to increase in power 4 times over. It only sucks because it is only usable on your turn as a standard action. On a crit even with the most piddly of blunt weapons, smite evil deals 40 damage. a Lance will deal 120 on a crit, and a paladin will deal 540 (enough to oneshot the majority of printed material before epic) on a crit with Charging smite and Valorous charge.
LoH is limited but always there, they get the earliest fear protection and can have some of the best saves in the game.

Psionics: Heres where your brain needs to be excavated (possibly with thermite/thermate). Wish, Planar binding, Anything you can name outright broken with Vancian that isnt related to Timestop or Celerity (and psionic time control is only broken with the highest levels of cheese anyway) is entirely missing from psionics. the only issue you have with it is you equate being able to flip-flop elements with uber-preparedness and being able to mind control the king.

Divine spells are not weaker then Arcane for any reason beyond access to celerity. the offensive spells bypass resistances or have effects that can hit without direct line of fire to the target, lowering their damage. they have better buffs (divine might vs Tenser's transformation) then arcane gets besides haste.

Limited access to the spell list is not even remotely a qualifier, and a well studied enough player can make a sorcerer as adaptable as any wizard. If they want to lay siege to the game, that is why wizards are tier 2, because no matter how swiss army you build a sorcerer, a wizard can be more adaptable.

favor souls suck because they do not have any way to break them where as clerics have Turn undead.

Paladins: Paladins are the Guardians of the weak, the fearful, and those who can not protect themselves. calling one a soldier of god should get you a massive right hook regardless of your alignment and without chance for the paladin to fall.

your idea of measuring classes: Tier is a measure of how broken a class is, No more, no less. Wizard has infinite options, and a good portion of those, at every level, can and do invalidate aspects of the game. the same with cleric, druid, and the other T1s.

UmpteenthDoctor
2013-11-02, 12:27 AM
I could easily just use the Favored Soul as a Template and combine aspects of both the Crusader and Paladin onto it. Its not hard to do overall.

My beef with the paladin is that it literally cannot cast a spell to level 6, has 4 levels of spells both of these things are aberrations not the norm. If you think of the archetype of a paladin its typically portrayed as the big armored clad guy who swings a big sword and has the ability to do damage to one type of alignment over another and a weak limited healing ability that even at level twenty is not very good without seriously maxing out Charisma to make it somewhat useful who can cast a very small pool of spells per day.
The Paladin even if he maxes out his Charisma for Spells Per Day upgrade he still prepares spells, but has no divination spells to know whats going to happen thus he picks basic abilities which likely aren't help much especially if other casters are involved in the party.

If they are gonna gimp the Paladin's casting ability so badly why even have it make the Paladin be a Divine Powered Fighter variant and call it a day why involve spells if you're literally going to half ass it.

I want a Paladin type who is good at not just swinging a big sword but is actually trained to be a weapon of god which means he would have spells and useful ones too.

Be logical for a second, if you are a god and you are empowering two people. One is your weapon on earth essentially your blade. The other is your recruiter and priest for all intents. Which would you give your divine wraith powers to? The guy who is talking to people and healing them? or the guy who is fighting evil in your name with the might of his sword and your divine power.

Basically the Cleric should really have been more like the Paladin. In fact a fusion of those two gives a lot of what I want but I figured it would be way to powerful.

UmpteenthDoctor
2013-11-02, 12:35 AM
I am not getting your argument for Smite to be equal to a 20th Level Barbarians attack.
At level 5 you can use smite twice per day with a +5 to damage on an attack not counting a good strength mod. And its Charisma mod to hit.. unless you seriously boost this with items your to hit is not that good over a regular fighter.

Tiers don't matter to me.

If Paladins are not divine.. then someone screwed up their spell list.. and their alignment BS stuff.

TheFamilarRaven
2013-11-02, 12:36 AM
I could easily just use the Favored Soul as a Template and combine aspects of both the Crusader and Paladin onto it. Its not hard to do overall.

Then just do that, and post a seperate thread for PEACHing.


My beef with the paladin is that it literally cannot cast a spell to level 6, has 4 levels of spells both of these things are aberrations not the norm. If you think of the archetype of a paladin its typically portrayed as the big armored clad guy who swings a big sword and has the ability to do damage to one type of alignment over another and a weak limited healing ability that even at level twenty is not very good without seriously maxing out Charisma to make it somewhat useful who can cast a very small pool of spells per day.
The Paladin even if he maxes out his Charisma for Spells Per Day upgrade he still prepares spells, but has no divination spells to know whats going to happen thus he picks basic abilities which likely aren't help much especially if other casters are involved in the party.

If they are gonna gimp the Paladin's casting ability so badly why even have it make the Paladin be a Divine Powered Fighter variant and call it a day why involve spells if you're literally going to half ass it.

I want a Paladin type who is good at not just swinging a big sword but is actually trained to be a weapon of god which means he would have spells and useful ones too.

Be logical for a second, if you are a god and you are empowering two people. One is your weapon on earth essentially your blade. The other is your recruiter and priest for all intents. Which would you give your divine wraith powers to? The guy who is talking to people and healing them? or the guy who is fighting evil in your name with the might of his sword and your divine power.

Basically the Cleric should really have been more like the Paladin. In fact a fusion of those two gives a lot of what I want but I figured it would be way to powerful.

Sooo are we done with the class idea and just started a debate on the usefulness and difference between Clerics and Paladins now?