How Powerful Would This Be Really

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Ok I am working on a potential Homebrew and I wanted to know something.

If you mixed abilities from the Crusader in with the Paladin and gave the Paladin the Cleric's spell list and Spell Level Progression but say the Wizard's Spells Per Day would this class be OP?

What if you had those 4 prepared spells per day recharge over time even though it could only use those 4 spells prepared at the start of the day.

[Big Fau]

The second one would be more balanced, but the first one is horrendously overpowered.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

I assume you mean the 4 spells recharging would be more balanced?

How can the Paladin be Overpowered?
What if you gave the Paladin a Favored Soul like Spell Known List

[Big Fau]

I assume you mean the 4 spells recharging would be more balanced?

How can the Paladin be Overpowered?
What if you gave the Paladin a Favored Soul like Spell Known List


and gave the Paladin the Cleric's spell list and Spell Level Progression

That's the OP part. The Cleric's spell list is one of the best in the game, even without domains. Tack on the Full BAB and Crusader features (assuming maneuvers included) and you'd have the single best class in the game (sans the Code of Conduct). Your first suggestion would have dual 9ths without even trying.

If you gave the Paladin class 4 spells from the Cleric's spell list and gave them a recharge, and then made it so they prepared those spells the same way a Factotum does, it would be interesting (at least if you gave them a way to swap which spells were prepared when the spells recharged).

[Red Fel]

Let me see that I understand correctly.

First, you are giving the Paladin Crusader abilities on top of Paladin ones. Does this include Maneuvers? If so, you now have a Crusader+, in that it's everything a Crusader can do plus Paladin. That's already up two tiers.

Next you add Cleric spell list and spell progression. That means your Paladin gets Paladin and Cleric spells, and gains spells known and spells-per-day as a Cleric. Your Paladin is now Cleric++, in that he has every feature of a Cleric (he gains Turn Undead at level 4, still), has a superior BAB, has all Cleric spells PLUS Paladin spells, and has Paladin class features on top of all that. You have now taken this class and slapped it right into Tier 1. Yes, that is overpowered for a Paladin.

As for your second suggestion, I don't even understand it. Are you suggesting that, instead of gaining spells as usual, a Paladin prepares four spells each day, and recovers them like a Crusader recovers maneuvers? Because I would say that improves the Paladin, but without breaking him. He already gets very few spell uses; making them recyclable isn't a terrible thing.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

No no no Maneuvers given. I mean abilities like Steely Resolve which focuses on the Divine fluff.

Here is my idea in a nutshell
A fusion of sorts of the Favored Soul, Paladin, and Crusader
Full BAB, All Good Saves, Paladin's Smite and Lay on Hands, etc. The Crusaders Steely Resolve, Furious Counter Strike and Zealous Surge (Same levels), The Favored Souls Deity weapon ability feats. Energy Resistance no Wings or Damage Reduction.

Level 9 Spells following the same at level progression as a Cleric (So you get second level spells when a Cleric does). But you get spells per day in line with the Wizard's Spells per day.

The spells can recharge via the Recharge Magic Variant.
Now I also wanted to make this class have a mechanic that allows the character to gain and add limited arcane spells to his list and use them as Divine spells (So long as he is following a god of Magic)

I am not against the Paladin just getting recharging spells because hey it would at least be useful but the problem is the rest of the abilities SUCK so hard. They are not worth being the only abilities on the list.

Most of his 4th level spells are Cleric spells anyway. At level 20 your casting spells as a 10th level caster using 4th level spells. At this point can you honestly say more then 1 or 2 spells are even worth casting off that list?

[Metahuman1]

Let me see that I understand correctly.

First, you are giving the Paladin Crusader abilities on top of Paladin ones. Does this include Maneuvers? If so, you now have a Crusader+, in that it's everything a Crusader can do plus Paladin. That's already up two tiers.



I beg to differ. Up, at very most, to low end of tier 2. That's an increase of 1 Tier from Crusader. And that assumes reasonable levels of optimization with Pally's spell use and Turn Undead access.

[nyjastul69]

Isn't this thread a better fit for the home brew forum?

[UmpteenthDoctor]

I am asking how powerful a combination of these would be, there is a thread for the specific build in the Homebrew section. This is more for discussion of the idea not the actual build.

[Metahuman1]

Game Shatteringly good, even with out Pally spells and/or Crusader maneuvers on top of it. The Chassie between Paladin and Crusader is not exactly weak and that cleric spell list breaks the game over it's knee with that chassie.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Ok why is it if you say 9th level spell everyone acts like the sky is falling?

Ok martial abilities at high levels are not that big a deal. Without proper buffing and magical items martial abilities mean almost nothing.

I am talking about basically giving the Favored Soul who has 9th level Cleric spells and a spells known and spells per day restriction. But giving them weak abilities like Lay on Hands, Smite, Steely Rsolve (allows you to temporarily store damage to use to give you AT MOST +6 to Hit/Damage at level 20) along with a handful of other weak abilities like Immunity to disease and fear 10 resistance to 3 elements and a free weapon focus and weapon specialization

I am not getting this uber game breaking that people are talking about?

[Kuulvheysoon]

For starters, for god's sake, give him the Bardic table at most. It's a compromise between a side feature and total domination. And why no Wings/energy resistance? Those aren't exactly game-shattering.

If they're meant to take the place of the Favored Souls, I'd recommend either shattering the alignment prerequisite or embracing the paladin variants found in Unearthed Arcana.

And please, dear GOD, avoid the recharge mechanics unless you severely nerf the spellcasting.

[Metahuman1]

The problem with spell casting is that it comes in 3 flavors.

weak sauce (Core Pally and Ranger, Warmage, Hexblade, Duskblade.)

Workable (Shugenja, Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer.)

And Destorys the game. (Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Wizard, Sorcerer, Wu Gen, Favored Soul, Spirit Shamen.)


Right now your leaning toward the last one.

[lsfreak]

Ok why is it if you say 9th level spell everyone acts like the sky is falling?

It's not just 9ths, it's that you're getting all the really good lower-level spells at the same time the cleric does. The cleric list is really versatile and you've got damned good melee baked in through crusader + pally which frees your spells to be used on whatever the situation needs. Or since it's pally base, you can power DMM:Persist to turn you into a melee monster.

[13_CBS]

Ok why is it if you say 9th level spell everyone acts like the sky is falling?

Ok martial abilities at high levels are not that big a deal. Without proper buffing and magical items martial abilities mean almost nothing.

I am talking about basically giving the Favored Soul who has 9th level Cleric spells and a spells known and spells per day restriction. But giving them weak abilities like Lay on Hands, Smite, Steely Rsolve (allows you to temporarily store damage to use to give you AT MOST +6 to Hit/Damage at level 20) along with a handful of other weak abilities like Immunity to disease and fear 10 resistance to 3 elements and a free weapon focus and weapon specialization

I am not getting this uber game breaking that people are talking about?

When used to their utmost power, Cleric spells can be extremely powerful--to the point where they can utterly destroy the game. For example...

Gate and Summon Monster XIV can summon very powerful to ludicrously overpowered monsters to do your bidding. Especially Gate: with some easy to access items that increase your caster level, a high level Cleric can Gate in a Solar, an angelic being which is both a powerful monster and a level 17 or so Cleric at the same time.

I'm sure other people around here know even more broken Cleric spells, but the point is: when leveraged correctly, 9th Level spells can be absolutely devastating. This is why everyone is advising you to tone down the spellcasting that you're giving the Paladin.

[OldTrees1]

I am not getting this uber game breaking that people are talking about?

I am not getting it entirely either. You are taking a Tier 1 class and expanding its versatility with relatively subpar options. Sure it is more powerful than a cleric and thus it is technically over powered. However I do not expect it to be a significant increase. On the other hand this same argument would say a Lightning Warrior was merely technically over powered.

[lsfreak]

You are taking a Tier 1 class and expanding its versatility with relatively subpar options.

Yes. Exactly. You are taking a ban-worthy class and making it better (and if not ban-worthy, only because the group agrees to nerf it by ignoring the best options). That's absolutely overpowered.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

I think people forget the basic rule of a broken spell trick. Its the player doing it.

The class itself is not broken, you have to perform the spells in that way to make them broken. This idea that just having spells makes you GOD is incorrect. Its the player using those spells and how they use them that make them broken or OP.

Yes I like the idea of a Melee Caster who can do both moderately well. The Paladin is no where near this idea.

Hell if I gave the Crusader 9th Level spell progression under the Favored Soul idea it would be better then the Paladin by so far the Paladin might as well not exist.

But that is not exactly what I want.

I like the idea of a class that is divine powered due to their god giving them this power. They are basically the sword of god, they are the physical might. They can cast spells for sure but that isn't there sole focus they are there to do their gods will and more importantly help those that need it. This sounds like a Paladin. But they are not the same in base.

[Terazul]

I like the idea of a class that is divine powered due to their god giving them this power. They are basically the sword of god, they are the physical might. They can cast spells for sure but that isn't there sole focus they are there to do their gods will and more importantly help those that need it. This sounds like a Paladin. But they are not the same in base.

Yes. This class already exists. We call it the Cleric, and it really doesn't need any extra class abilities added onto it to do just that.

[OldTrees1]

I think people forget the basic rule of a broken spell trick. Its the player doing it.


The balance of mechanics are judged via their capabilities. The cleric class is tier 1 and thus has versatile gamebreaking capability. Players can self nerf their builds but that does not change the fact that the class had capabilities powerful enough to demand self nerfing in order to not break the game.

However that does not address everything. You want a melee caster but the Full casting & Full BAB(Divine Power) of a Cleric is not sufficient. My suggestion is to take the Bardic Casting progression (maybe with limited spells known) and tack that onto a Crusader with 3/4ths BAB.

[nyjastul69]

I am asking how powerful a combination of these would be, there is a thread for the specific build in the Homebrew section. This is more for discussion of the idea not the actual build.

There isn't really a difference between the two. I was just trying to be helpful and point you to a place on the board that was designed for this very thing. I figured you would get more/better help if it was in a more appropriate forum.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

The Cleric is not very good with martial combat, it is so so and that is not what I want.

I think I have an idea involving Combining abilities and such from these two classes to make what I want.
Here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/mighty-godling)
and
Here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/eldritch-godling)

Taking the special class features to fill out the designs and such would give me a lot of what I want.

[Terazul]

The Cleric is not very good with martial combat, it is so so and that is not what I want.


What in the bloody (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) blazes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm) do you mean? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divineFavor.htm)

And that was just glancing at the core list, without considering Domain Abilities, Divine Feats, or Magic Items. Clerics are BEASTS.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

I will point out you had to resort to spells, which yes they have amazing spells. I am saying they have no class abilities or non spell list power boost to martial skills.

[OldTrees1]

I will point out you had to resort to spells, which yes they have amazing spells. I am saying they have no class abilities or non spell list power boost to martial skills.

So gut their spell list and then give them class features.

[Terazul]

I will point out you had to resort to spells, which yes they have amazing spells. I am saying they have no class abilities or non spell list power boost to martial skills.

Because they don't need them. Spells are literally just that good. If you really are set on having some class abilities that say you can hit harder (without spells, but having the option to anyway), you could just build a Crusader X/Cleric X/Ruby Knight Vindicator without having to resort to any homebrew.

[TuggyNE]

I will point out you had to resort to spells, which yes they have amazing spells.

The same spells you're persisting in giving to the Paladin? :smallconfused: Those spells?

Yes by all means it's only if the Cleric uses their spells they become a melee powerhouse. That's one of the most important reasons Cleric spellcasting is so overpowered.

[Craft (Cheese)]

I will point out you had to resort to spells, which yes they have amazing spells. I am saying they have no class abilities or non spell list power boost to martial skills.

I think I see the problem here: Might I suggest the Battle Oracle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/battle)?

[bekeleven]

I think people forget the basic rule of a broken spell trick. Its the player doing it.

The class itself is not broken, you have to perform the spells in that way to make them broken. This idea that just having spells makes you GOD is incorrect. Its the player using those spells and how they use them that make them broken or OP.The game is broken. (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Oberoni_Fallacy)


I will point out you had to resort to spells, which yes they have amazing spells.Yeah, and the wizard is a crappy class too, unless the player cheats and resorts to spells. In fact all full casters are - oh, what? I'm sorry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm).

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Lets be clear he was saying the Cleric is a martial beast, when it is not it is only empowered by its spells in that regard. It could turn any martial class into a beast with those spells buffing it. So without its spells is it any good in martial combat? Its ok but nothing special.

[bekeleven]

It could turn any martial class into a beast with those spells buffing it.

Yes. Give the complete warrior samurai cleric casting, and it's tier 1. It's literally that simple. Especially when they prestige into domains and turning.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

No I meant if a Cleric is buffing you with its best spells you will be a martial beast because it pushing your martial damage up a lot. Never said it makes you a tier 1. What the hell is with people and Tier 1?

[TuggyNE]

Lets be clear he was saying the Cleric is a martial beast, when it is not it is only empowered by its spells in that regard. It could turn any martial class into a beast with those spells buffing it. So without its spells is it any good in martial combat? Its ok but nothing special.

It could, except that many of a Cleric's best buffs are personal-only.

Of course, lifting that restriction by giving those buffs to a Paladin might have a somewhat different effect, in that, y'know, it might turn that martial class into a beast!

Seriously, I'm not seeing what's so hard to follow here. Cleric is a class with the power to be brokenly good with only moderate effort. Almost all that power comes from Cleric spellcasting. Paladins are a class with a chassis that is strictly superior to Cleric in every way except four: they don't get full Turn Undead (very minor), their class skills are slightly different (trivial), domain granted abilities (usually only moderately interesting), and … spells. If you give them spells, how are you not going to end up with something that is noticeably superior to Clerics right out of the box? And "noticeably superior to an overpowered T1 class" is pretty serious.

Edit:
What the hell is with people and Tier 1?

This (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=658).

[Averis Vol]

Lets be clear he was saying the Cleric is a martial beast, when it is not it is only empowered by its spells in that regard. It could turn any martial class into a beast with those spells buffing it. So without its spells is it any good in martial combat? Its ok but nothing special.

....uhh, yea; that's the clerics thing. If you want a class that is the sword of god then there is the paladin, that's almost word for word what they are. Just because you are not happy with how the game works, doesn't change the game.

Spells are overpowered. That is the nature of the game. Giving an moderation combination of martial classes (Crusader+Paladin) full spell casting, you are making a needlessly overpowered class for no reason. If that is your definition of balanced though, may I also introduce you to the Lightning Warrior?

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Please explain to me why a +6 at lvl 20 is so OP its not funny?
Or once per day rerolling a single save and having to take that second roll even if its worse.

So how does that make the paladin a tier 0?
And Favored Soul casting could not make it a tier 0 either.

Can anyone explain why they delayed casting for a Paladin till 6th level?
Why cripple the turn undead ability? Why reduce the only good ability such as smite to 1/day function?

Can anyone answer me that?

[bekeleven]

....uhh, yea; that's the clerics thing. If you want a class that is the sword of god then there is the paladin, that's almost word for word what they are. Just because you are not happy with how the game works, doesn't change the game.You may wish to rephrase this, because as worded, that's a rather heavy-handed repudiation of homebrew in its entirety.

Perhaps consider, "If you are not happy with how the game works, don't misrepresent it."


Please explain to me why a +6 at lvl 20 is so OP its not funny?
Or once per day rerolling a single save and having to take that second roll even if its worse.

So how does that make the paladin a tier 0?
And Favored Soul casting could not make it a tier 0 either.

Can anyone explain why they delayed casting for a Paladin till 6th level?
Why cripple the turn undead ability? Why reduce the only good ability such as smite to 1/day function?

Can anyone answer me that?If you'd like to know what this class would be able to do by level 20, SRD only, there's Gate, Miracle, Astral Projection shenannigans, Summon Monster 9, all healing known to man, and implosion for the lulz. And that's without trying, staying inside core. There's nowhere to go but up.

[Averis Vol]

Please explain to me why a +6 at lvl 20 is so OP its not funny?
Or once per day rerolling a single save and having to take that second roll even if its worse.

So how does that make the paladin a tier 0?
And Favored Soul casting could not make it a tier 0 either.

Can anyone explain why they delayed casting for a Paladin till 6th level?
Why cripple the turn undead ability? Why reduce the only good ability such as smite to 1/day function?

Can anyone answer me that?

First of all, as has been said, SPELLS are whats OP.

Secondly, yea, I can. The developers didn't think far much about the repercussions of giving a few classes all the options. It was a developmental oversight that they never fixed. They thought a limit on spells per day would balance out those classes, but then they just let them make more spells on scrolls, which gave them basically an unlimited supply of their "strong but limited" options. Bad move on WoTC's part. If you want a game that's well balanced, try 4th ed; not my kind of game but one that keeps everyone at about the same power level (besides fighters, I hear they got completely shafted).

[Averis Vol]

You may wish to rephrase this, because as worded, that's a rather heavy-handed repudiation of homebrew in its entirety.

Perhaps consider, "If you are not happy with how the game works, don't misrepresent it."

If you'd like to know what this class would be able to do by level 20, SRD only, there's Gate, Miracle, Astral Projection shenannigans, Summon Monster 9, all healing known to man, and implosion for the lulz. And that's without trying, staying inside core. There's nowhere to go but up.

Yea, I worded that wrong, especially because I do some homebrew myself and love the work of some of the homebrewers on this site. My bad. I should have said "If you don't like how the game works, play a different one."

[ben-zayb]

I like the idea of a class that is divine powered due to their god giving them this power. They are basically the sword of god, they are the physical might. They can cast spells for sure but that isn't there sole focus they are there to do their gods will and more importantly help those that need it. This sounds like a Paladin. But they are not the same in base.

Alright, since everybody else already pointed out the most obvious problem with your idea, I will suggest an alternative. Why not build a base class with spells known limit akin to the Divine Crusader PrC (aka one domain from your deity)? It fits the fluff to a tee.

Granted it can still easily be broken, depending on the domain choices. But it will be a HUGE nerf than completely opening the floodgate that is the whole cleric list.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

So if I don't like how a class is built I should play a different game. And you homebrew why? if you dont like the stock classes play a different game.

Again I keep bein told that lvl 9 spells = god of gods.

Your argument of broken levels doesn't stand up. You people say that Tier 1 and virtually every single spell caster of tier 3 snd up can instantly break the game by method of just existing..

The problem is no one holds the players accountable.
Think of spells like guns.. Gun ownership comes with responsibilities if the player ****s up.

GMS control what the gods do. Clerics can lose their spells if you say they can. Burn the Wizards spell book and cripple his hands so he cannot scribe spells anymore. Thats two easy ways of nerfing the classes if someone is being a ****.

You can have a class that has all the spells in the game and it doesn't matter. Hell I know people who have played Rogues and totally raped the game universe. Your argument seems to be that tiers are based on 'It has the potential to' which is a foolish and stupid system. A skilled player can make a Rogue run wild through the campaign doing the same things a wizard can do.

Hell A Wizard only learns two spells per level he levels up. So he shouldn't have all that many spells to begin with without the player himself going out and learning spells.

Druids and Clerics yeah they know all the spells on their lists and have good combat abilities as well but hell if they don't learn their spell lists and pick the right spells they will hardly be breaking anything overall.

PLAYERS control the characters and their classes. I hate people complaining about POTENTIAL abuse when if you know the player you shouldn't ever have a problem.

You call it self nerfing, nerfing is to reduce something down to a weaker or inferior state basically. Thats not Nerfing, thats just not pushing everything you can do. Hell I could kick the GM in the balls till he agrees to just let me do whatever I want doesn't mean a Commoner is Tier 1 just means the player is a ****.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

The Domain idea hasn't escaped me. I considered it, hell the Domain Powers and Domain Spells would more then make up for it.

Pick a God and you gain their Domains throughout your career from 1-20 and you gain spells and the like and can only cast those spells. Plus like the PrC extra spells for high score.

Seriously though if the Tier 1 & 2 are destroying your game so damn bad.. ban them from your table. If you honestly feel they need to be redone then I don't know petition for them to be removed in D&D Next? Or at least reworked or something.

All I keep getting told is how powerful the level 9 spells of Clerics and Wizards are and how any access to those list destroys a game completely. Well I have never seen this. Maybe you guys just play with *******s?

[Lucid]

It's not about the player being an ***, it's about the potential tier 1/2 classes have. The tier system is pretty much the only objective way we have of measuring classes against each other, and of course it's going to play out different at a lot of tables. The player of your rogue might know how to optimize and play a rogue really well, which makes it stronger in comparison to the other characters.

Some of your suggestions for nerfing these classes involve the DM punishing players IC for using the tools available. This kind of passive-aggressive behaviour is imo not conducive to a fun gaming environment.
And yes, an experienced player can knowingly pick op options, or refrain from using them. An inexperienced player could break the game on accident by picking powerful spells, why not reduce this chance by limiting the options available to something more manageable?

You asked how powerful your homebrew Paladin would be, and then don't accept it when people tell you it would be one of the strongest classes in game. :smallconfused:

Kuulvheysoon already mentioned using the bardic spell progression and this is something I've been thinking about myself when it comes to Paladins(and Rangers) in my game. Give it spells/day/known as a bard picked from the paladin and cleric list. This makes for an excellent but balanced divine warrior imo.

[Ruethgar]

Cleric can follow ideals circumventing the GM control of the gods. Or they can go ur priest and skip the whole out of their control bit. Wizards don't need their spell books, it is just irritating to go without them, similarly wizards can circumvent the GM having to provide spells beyond the 2 per level by literally dreaming them up if they want or getting all of the arcane and domain spells written down with a 2 level dip. And if you start forcing players like that they will circumvent you and if you just start ignoring rules mid game, you will lose players.

Also, I know of no rogue that could craft a contingency wish to escape any form of death, or stop time to set up a dozen explosives in the blink of an eye, or create their own plane and adventure solely through a copy of themselves while an army of golems protects their real body, and those are just the tame options.

All classes are on a bell curve of power, the tiers pin the approximate average power level but there are always outliers either way for every class. The base potential for a character with no experience given the full cleric spell list is still very high if they actually read through and pick what sounds cool. Hell, I built a character around steely resolve and shield other with damage reducers, ended up being able to take a massive beating, can't imagine what it would be like to have it wrapped into a single class.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

I agreed with the 6th level progression my comments where about how lvl 9 means auto destruction of game.

The tier system is broken, its ill designed. The tiers claim to go off the potential power using its abilities but even skilled players using a low tier 4 class could do a ton of things to. Heck UMD pretty much makes a class very very capable of maximizing their versatility.

And I was saying giving a character a +6 at level 20 and a second saving roll once per day is not gonna break the game.

[ben-zayb]

So what made you decide not to do the grant Domain Spells route? It seems reasonable, very fluffy, and gives every possible class a *distinct feel* or uniqueness. It also gives less bookkeeping, which is really helpful and noob-friendly for a class that doesn't seem to rely primarily on spellcasting anyway.

[2xMachina]

It is OP because it's better than any other class in the game.

However, I wouldn't say it'll break the game. It's not as strong as a gestalt IMO.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

I said I agreed with 6th spell list over 9th was a better idea didnt say I was gonna use that.

Honestly I am burnt out on spells with everyone screaming Tier 1 all day. Apparently a Wizard being made destroys the cosmos I might start using that for my F off campaign excuse "Well the universe ended, a wizard was born."

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Did you really just say a +6 at lvl 20 is OP?

Core Paladins get a +20 at 20 you know that right?

So how does adding those two things make it OP and better then EVERY OTHER CLASS?

[Der_DWSage]

The Cleric is a strong enough class that it needs no class features besides heavy armor, 3/4 BAB, and spells. You keep getting told that high-level magic breaks the game because it does. Just as a few examples...


Combat:With fewer spells per day, he has yet to shine. However, he can make single level 5 opponents flee at top speeds with Cause Fear so that allies can pick them off with ranged weapons (Or simply remove him from combat for a few rounds) or use Hold Person, or use Darkness, or Blindness, or Bestow Curse. He has yet to truly come into his own, and the most he'll contribute is completely invalidating one opponent per spell.

Information gathering:Murdery mystery? Speak with dead! Need to know if the next action is a good idea? Augury! Think your informant is lying to you? Zone of Truth! Need to sneak in? Trickery Domain + Invisibility! Yeah, god's on his side there.

War Effort:Bless and Magic Circle Against [Alignment] depending on the army you're fighting can significantly extend the lives of troops. He doesn't have much to help win the entire war effort yet, but he can certainly Enthrall enemy camps, hitting all enemies within a 150 foot radius to remove them from the war effort. Stoneshape can turn random portions of the battlefield into a trap. Glyphs of warding turn the battlefield into a minefield. For a sense of scale, compare this to what a normal level 5 Paladin would be doing. (IE, swinging in melee and healing people ineffectively.)


Combat:Greater Command:Approach. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandGreater.htm) Warn all your buddies to have prepared actions to kill them on the way. Or just look for the ones that are about to make their saves, and use Divine Might before you whack them on the head. Or how about invalidating (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm) two schools of magic? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathWard.htm) He can break out the DMM cheese here and Persist Divine Might all day, too. The Cleric is now 90% of a Fighter in addition to being, well, a Cleric.

Information Gathering:Commune and Divination. No, nothing is slipping by him at this point. You're done, so far as mysteries go. (And don't say you can simply refuse to answer as a GM. We're talking RAW, and we're not assuming permissive/dismissive GMs. We're assuming one that goes by the book 99% of the time.)

War Effort:Just throw a few stones with Symbol of Sleep into the battlefield. Everyone within 60 feet of each of them is asleep, as well as anyone that walks into that area for the next ten minutes. Congratulations, you've saved the kingdom. Alternatively, Lesser Planar Ally. Convince them your cause is just, and you can likely get a discount. Congratulation, you now have a ton more allies for the war effort. Or perhaps you just need combat information? Say hello to Scrying.

Again, compare all these to what a level 10 Paladin would be doing-at best, taking down opponents one at a time, hoping to keep his dwindling HP pool above half.

...I'm not going for higher than that. Honestly, that's minimal cheese. That's core-only, not-going-outside-the-boundaries, not-looking-for-abusive-domains stuff. (Aside from the one mention of DMM, which is some of the biggest cheese there is.) If you don't see how stuff that lets you invalidate armies by level 10 only gets worse by level 20, nothing I say is going to convince you. Especially by the time you hit level 20, when you can throw 10 around spells per combat without blinking an eye.

Honestly, if you want a workable Paladin fix? Go look at T.G. Oskar's fix. He's kinda the man for it. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10687545&postcount=2)

[2xMachina]

No, lets sum it together.

Unless I misunderstood, it's +26 at lvl 20, which is better than any other class. How useful it would be, however....

It's basically partial gestalting Paladin with Crusader/Cleric. It's not as powerful as a full Crusader//Cleric, but certainly better than a Cleric or Crusader, or Paladin by itself. Do you not agree?

Whether it'll break the game or not though, is a different story. I'm saying no, since full gestalts have been played with no problems (except needing maybe a ECL +2 or so for suitable enemy purposes)

[UmpteenthDoctor]

I am gonna explain this again.

You don't HAVE to do anything like those examples. Its not manditory, I am not saying you CAN'T I am saying unlike seemingly all of you that you DON'T have to find spell tricks to break a campaign or encounter. IT is not like you have to do this type of spell play to keep being a cleric.

You could play the class within the party dynamic and the campaign world without trying to farm wishes and the like. its not like it says when you make a character that you have to do these things or lose your cleric powers or Wizard powers or whatever class you are.

Players find the spell tricks and exploit them because they can and that is all. The argument that the class is broken is invalid. A class is only ever as broken as the player plays it. If you have a Cleric who does not do any of those tricks and just plays a normal buffer and healer and light damage then yes that Cleric is not breaking the game and OP as all hell.

You call it self nerfing I call it not going out of your way to chain spells

Which is why I liked the Recharge Variant because most spells fall under either hours apart or rounds apart and thus you cannot easily chain the spells together to get massive effects instantly.

I give up forget it apparently Paladin is Tier 0 if you add or subtract anything the universe as we know it will implode.

I will just make a spellslayer

[Lucid]

I agreed with the 6th level progression my comments where about how lvl 9 means auto destruction of game.
Access to 9th level spells don't mean auto destruction, but it could. They do have all the tools that could break the Game.
The tier system is broken, its ill designed. The tiers claim to go off the potential power using its abilities but even skilled players using a low tier 4 class could do a ton of things to. Heck UMD pretty much makes a class very very capable of maximizing their versatility.
Like I wrote, the Tier system is objective. It doesn't take into account player skill, optimization level, it purely looks at what options a class has available.
That same tier 4 player could wreck a game when playing tier 1 and applying the same skill.

Also note that with enough optimization, it's generally possible to go up a tier, and if played poorly you can easily drop a few tiers, but this is a general averaging, assuming that everyone in the party is playing with roughly the same skill and optimization level. Now I'll agree that it's difficult to compare optimization levels. Is a Fighter picking Power Attack over Weapon Spec on the same optimization level as a Wizard picking Color Spray over Magic Missile?

Using UMD does make a low tier class more versatile, but it's something that can't be measured objectively because it depends highly on what magic items a DM makes available

See also: Why each class is in its tier. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5070.0)

And I was saying giving a character a +6 at level 20 and a second saving roll once per day is not gonna break the game.This wouldn't break the game no, but other options available to this character include Gate, Miracle, Energy Drain, Holy Word, Anti-Magic Field, and many more.

[Der_DWSage]

I am gonna explain this again.

You don't HAVE to do anything like those examples. Its not manditory, I am not saying you CAN'T I am saying unlike seemingly all of you that you DON'T have to find spell tricks to break a campaign or encounter. IT is not like you have to do this type of spell play to keep being a cleric.

You're right. You don't have to play to that level-you can just cast Cure until the sheep come home. But when you design classes, you don't keep any kind of gentleman's agreement in mind, nor do you think that everyone will play fair-because they won't.


You could play the class within the party dynamic and the campaign world without trying to farm wishes and the like. its not like it says when you make a character that you have to do these things or lose your cleric powers or Wizard powers or whatever class you are.
'Could' play within the party dynamic and 'will' play within the party dynamic are two very, very different things. Again, you have to assume a baseline-and this board assumes a very cutthroat baseline indeed.


Players find the spell tricks and exploit them because they can and that is all. The argument that the class is broken is invalid. A class is only ever as broken as the player plays it. If you have a Cleric who does not do any of those tricks and just plays a normal buffer and healer and light damage then yes that Cleric is not breaking the game and OP as all hell.
You say 'invalid.' I say 'If a single spell can break an entire encounter, that's fairly broken.' None of those were really tricks. They were single spells that, by themselves, break encounters. You want tricks? Ask for them. Those were incredibly low scale for tricks.


You call it self nerfing I call it not going out of your way to chain spells

I give up forget it apparently Paladin is Tier 0 if you add or subtract anything the universe as we know it will implode.

I will just make a spellslayer

You asked a question. We answered. When you didn't believe us, we provided examples. We disagreed, and you're the one growing gradually more hostile because we weren't falling in love with your full-casting Paladin.

Perhaps you should return to the forum a little while later with a clear head, and really look at the spells in the spell list. Ask yourself 'If I were a character with access to all this in a campaign, and I had my back against the wall against a single large opponent or a small army, how would I win with these tools at my disposal?' Then ask how you would escape or win against those situations with only two spells. With only one. (See if there's a way for you to win with Water Walking, there's a challenge...)

A little bit of reflection would do you a world of good compared to simply giving up. But hostility is going to give you nothing but grief, and it's best to just let it go.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

I admit I am a little cranky, its 7:30 am and I have literally been arguing with you guys all night.

Now I have already said I would not do a full casting. I actually said this multiple times.

I have posted repeatedly that all I would be adding was maybe possibly but maybe not a level 6th progression or domain spells only and the Steely Resolve and the like.

I was till told everything about this character is OP.

Core Paladin according to your lists is tier 5.. I am gonna strip him down even further no Smite, no Lay on Hands, no anything Paladin but the name and work from there.

[13_CBS]

Again I keep bein told that lvl 9 spells = god of gods.

Your argument of broken levels doesn't stand up. You people say that Tier 1 and virtually every single spell caster of tier 3 snd up can instantly break the game by method of just existing.

To go against the grain of everyone here...

...actually, yeah. If you or the person playing this homebrewed Paladin cannot/will not abuse the most powerful Cleric spells, I'd honestly say go for it. Many Cleric spells are broken (in that, at least in theory, they are too powerful), but that does not necessarily mean they'll break a given game.

If the person playing this class will not be using those spells to do terrible things to the game, then yeah I guess the homebrew looks okay to me.


Edit:


Your argument of broken levels doesn't stand up. You people say that Tier 1 and virtually every single spell caster of tier 3 snd up can instantly break the game by method of just existing..


Well, that's a whole 'nother thing entirely. When talking about how powerful or broken a given element of the game is, we have to make certain baseline assumptions; some of these include the DM permitting just about anything as long as it's legal according to Rules as Written. These are baseline assumptions that we have to make in order for there to be any meaningful discussion, and these baseline assumptions may not be the ones you and your gaming table make. This is not to say our assumptions are right and yours are wrong, or vice versa; merely that our approach to the game may be different from yours.

Under our baseline assumptions: yes, many Cleric spells are broken, and having full access to them (i.e. casting spells just like a Cleric) makes a character Tier 1, which measures potential power under a certain set of assumptions.

[Lucid]

I am gonna explain this again.

You don't HAVE to do anything like those examples. Its not manditory, I am not saying you CAN'T I am saying unlike seemingly all of you that you DON'T have to find spell tricks to break a campaign or encounter. IT is not like you have to do this type of spell play to keep being a cleric.

You could play the class within the party dynamic and the campaign world without trying to farm wishes and the like. its not like it says when you make a character that you have to do these things or lose your cleric powers or Wizard powers or whatever class you are.

Players find the spell tricks and exploit them because they can and that is all. The argument that the class is broken is invalid. A class is only ever as broken as the player plays it. If you have a Cleric who does not do any of those tricks and just plays a normal buffer and healer and light damage then yes that Cleric is not breaking the game and OP as all hell.

You call it self nerfing I call it not going out of your way to chain spells

Which is why I liked the Recharge Variant because most spells fall under either hours apart or rounds apart and thus you cannot easily chain the spells together to get massive effects instantly.

I give up forget it apparently Paladin is Tier 0 if you add or subtract anything the universe as we know it will implode.

I will just make a spellslayer No it's not mandatory, but it's possible.
I enjoy playing with all the tools a class has to offer, but I don't like to outshine the other players. So I either play a lower tier class, or I find a niche that isn't being filled and adjust my high tier character accordingly. But I like to think that I know what I'm doing.
A new player might find a spell trick that looks cool and inadvertently breaks the game. Not because he's looking for exploits or wants to be superior, but because he doesn't understand the balance problems inherent in the game system.
And that same newbie might want to play a character that gains power from worshipping a deity, but not want to buff and heal others, so he looks at the spells in the PHB and picks those spells that buff him, not knowing he will likely outshine the other melee characters.

And a Paladin isn't tier 0 when you add anything. It becomes tier 1 when you not only up it's combat abilities but also give it tier 1 spellcasting. Tbh it's not really a Paladin, it's a Cleric with a better chassis and a code of conduct.


I admit I am a little cranky, its 7:30 am and I have literally been arguing with you guys all night.

Now I have already said I would not do a full casting. I actually said this multiple times.

I have posted repeatedly that all I would be adding was maybe possibly but maybe not a level 6th progression or domain spells only and the Steely Resolve and the like.

I was till told everything about this character is OP.

Core Paladin according to your lists is tier 5.. I am gonna strip him down even further no Smite, no Lay on Hands, no anything Paladin but the name and work from there.I haven't seen anybody claim that this would still be op, maybe you're misinterpreting some of the replies.
I know it happens to me when I'm tired, I'd say get some rest and think over what you want this Paladin to be able to do.:smallwink:

[Der_DWSage]

I admit I am a little cranky, its 7:30 am and I have literally been arguing with you guys all night.

Now I have already said I would not do a full casting. I actually said this multiple times.
You said that multiple times. Immediately followed by 'What would be so wrong with 9th level spells, though?' every time.


I have posted repeatedly that all I would be adding was maybe possibly but maybe not a level 6th progression or domain spells only and the Steely Resolve and the like.

I was till told everything about this character is OP.
Actually, no. We've been focusing on the Cleric spells, for the most part. As for other features?

Steely Resolve + Retributive Strike is one of the more interesting features of the Crusader, but without the Stances and Strikes to back it up and make it obvious he's more of a threat, it's not likely he'll get the most out of it. So, that's kind of a wash. He also gets an extra two smites per day at level 18, so...good for him? He saved a feat on Extra Smite?

Giving him up to 6th level spells as per a Bard? That's a pretty nice boost for a Paladin, it really is. But it'd be even nicer if you keyed his casting to Charisma, so that he wasn't quite so MAD. Maybe give him a way to add Charisma to damage as well.

This doesn't make up for the rest of the Paladin, though-the fact that, after 6th level, it's a very empty class that begs for actual class features. I'd heavily recommend using T.G. Oskar's Paladin that I posted before, as it's a much more interesting class mechanically, and fairly balanced against Tier 3, which is generally regarded as the 'sweet spot.'

Just throwing spellcasting onto a class isn't all that great-mechanically, they certainly become more versatile and powerful. But honestly, everything starts to feel like you're just playing a Wizard or Cleric after a while, and you start to yearn for more interesting things. Actual class features are the bread and butter of good design, and certainly help people stay interested in a class after they hit a 'sweet spot' in leveling.

[Red Fel]

I admit I am a little cranky, its 7:30 am and I have literally been arguing with you guys all night.

Now I have already said I would not do a full casting. I actually said this multiple times.

I have posted repeatedly that all I would be adding was maybe possibly but maybe not a level 6th progression or domain spells only and the Steely Resolve and the like.

I was till told everything about this character is OP.

Core Paladin according to your lists is tier 5.. I am gonna strip him down even further no Smite, no Lay on Hands, no anything Paladin but the name and work from there.

Here's the bottom line.

1: Adding a Cleric-like, Druid-like, or Wizard-like spell progression will already bring a class into the top tiers. The tiers measure versatility and potential, not actual power; that differs from player to player and game to game. When we discuss a concept being OP, we can't discuss it in specifics, only in the abstract. In the abstract, adding Tier 1 casting to an existing class will usually put it into Tier 1. In the absence of other factors, that is powerful, if not OP.

2: Adding a semi-progression, like the Bardic progression, is actually very reasonable, and makes a Paladin a more effective caster than he currently is. I wouldn't call that gamebreaking. Remember, however, that casting spells in combat takes away from opportunities to use the Paladin's full BAB.

3: Removing class features from the Paladin just seems... Wasteful. At that point, you just have a ball of saves and BAB. You could add Bard spell progression, at which point he'd be... Well, worse than a Bard, with no class features. Or you could add Tier 1 casting, in which case he'd be... The lowest end of Tier 1, possibly upper Tier 2. You see the point, though; take away the class features of Paladin, and why are you even bothering with the chassis?

4: Adding Crusader features... Does make the Paladin more versatile. But many of them were designed with Maneuvers in mind. For example, Furious Counterstrike is designed around taking damage, and also being able to heal through it - Crusaders get Maneuvers that increase the likelihood that enemies will attack them, and Maneuvers that perform spot-healing in combat. A Paladin without maneuvers simply isn't going to have either. Smart enemies will not prioritize the Paladin as a target, and combat healing isn't the Paladin's friend.

Ultimately, as Der DWSage said, you need to come up with a flavor for the class, something that makes it more appealing than "give it better spells."

Here's a question: What's your goal in this Paladin fix?

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Well see that is the problem. This was never meant to just be a Paladin Fix.
When I say strip down the Abilities I am talking about going down to the metal and working from the frame up to rebuild the class entirely. I am not saying I would not redo Lay on Hands and so forth but they would not possibly be auto add ons.

The flavor is a Divine warrior (Everyone just auto assumes a Paladin but as discussed a Paladin is a tier 5 for a reason, it has ****ty class features that give it a little schtick and it cannot even do that well.)

A Divine warrior, a follower more specifically of a Magic god. I mean Paladins of Boccob are the Divine warriors of Arcane Knowledge and so forth. So how does this work I wonder? Is my magic Arcane or Divine?

Here is my original goal.
A Full BAB, Good Saves to at least two, Spell Casting with flexability greater then the Paladin and from level 1. A class feature that lets me dive into Arcane spells and treat them as Divine spells for the purpose of ignoring Arcane Spell Failure Rate. Flavorful Class Abilities that give it a warrior of god feel such as Divine Strike (Smite), etc.

However with all the commotion of this thread and people immediately saying "If you give it more then anyone else its OP and Broken and Tier 1 broken and spells are unbalanced so spells make it Tier one ++" Has just gotten me worn out.

I know kinda want to do a Divine Warrior who focuses on only casting Arcane Spells as Divine Spells so no SFR and not only that but works like a Spellthief of sorts in that he has a 6 level progression but if he can steal spells up to level 9, and when he steals them he has a slim chance at early levels, and a greater chance later of adding them to a 'Spelllist' in his head. Meaning he will only have spells that can be used on him, or used from a spell trigger or spell completion item like a wand or scroll.

Basically imagine a divine warrior lifting up a wand and absorbing the arcane magics inside it learning the magic like a wizard or Erudite could.

Now the question is how does this work? Could he cast these spells like he could his normal 0-6 progression? Probably not, it would add to his list for the use and completion of crafting magical items such as further Scrolls and Wands and Staves and the like to let him make off hand magical arcane objects.

Now what happens to the arcane user when I steal these tasty arcane spells? They would lose them prepared that day, they can no longer cast the spell and the spell slot is filled with a 'dead' spell that they cannot use, but also cannot replace.

I might give this character a Fortitude save or suck spell based on this magic thief dynamic. Imagine casting an aura spell like ability or invocation or something similar on a Wizard and allowing you to not only steel X number of spells but also if they fail their save or suck they retain the 'dead spells' even after a rest for the next day. Basically telling a level ten wizard Ok you failed your save, you lose both slots for your level 5 spells for today and tomorrow. You would basically be reducing them in power back to slightly better then level 8, and imagine doing it again to cripple their level 4 spells reducing them in power to level 6 and a Level 10 wizard with only spells of a 6th level is a much weaker foe.

Now it would work off a Spellfire mechanic like the Warlock's EB so it deals 1d6 of damage or 1d8 if in PF but you can ignore the damage to allow for the use of this ranged touch attack to activate the spellthief style mechanic.

In fact depending on the aura's effect make it have a save or suck based on fortitude or will if its not a spellthief effect.

[Grod_The_Giant]

An important note about homebrew: it generally has to be held to a higher balance standard than published material. After all, it's not "real." The burden of proof is on you to persuade your DM that the 'brew is good and won't ruin his game.

As for the proposal... originally, it sounded an awful lot like you were proposing a gestalt of cleric and crusader, two classes which are already quite powerful. (Cleric moreso, because Spells).

Now, if you're talking about taking a Paladin chassis and giving him up to 6th level spells, plus some Crusader class features? That's fine. If you're talking about taking a Crusader (maneuvers and all) and giving him paladin spells? Also fine. Crusader + 6th level casting is iffy. Why? Because it's better than comparable classes.

A good way to tell if something is overpowered is to ask yourself "is there any circumstance in which I wouldn't pick this over a similar option?" If Crusader//Cleric gestalt class exists, why would anyone play a normal cleric? What about a Crusader//Paladin?

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Please read my previous post for the original goal if you didn't already. Also the new idea.

Now giving two class features from Crusader is not making it a Gestalt or anything, its using limited damage output and saves.
Even if I did make a Cleric with Steely Resolve its not going to be as good because no Maneuvers to use to heal, I mean yes you can use the channel energy or cure spells to heal up as a Cleric but still not as effective. The bonus to melee is not going to unbalance the Cleric's martial side anywhere near as much as his own spells could. And a reroll of a single save once per day is hardly going to overpower the cleric's saves.

Plus do add input for the new idea. I am kinda curious now that i've slept on it.