kender

[geonova]

where can i find the stats for kender in 3.5?

[Reavent]

Under any circumstance you should never play a Kender, lest you get every other player throwing anything they can get their hands on at you for "Roleplaying" your character.

[Sir_Thaddeus]

Dragonlance Campaign Setting, I think.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Dragonlance Campaign Setting, I think.

Indeed, good sir. And it's even 3.5e legit.

[Ortesk]

Under any circumstance you should never play a Kender, lest you get every other player throwing anything they can get their hands on at you for "Roleplaying" your character.

Havent heard of kender until now, but whats wrong with it? Power level or something?

[Reavent]

To quote a bit from 1d4chan: "Kender are a fantasy race in Dungeons & Dragons' Dragonlance setting. They are basically halflings, with ADHD and kleptomania thrown in. No one apparently saw how terrible a decision that was. They survive getting the **** kicked out of them only because every one of the little ****s seems to be wearing plot armor (which they undoubtedly stole from more interesting species now tragically extinct)." edited for swearing.

[Worira]

They are a race for which no adequate explanation of why they still have fingers has ever been given.

[nyjastul69]

They are a race created to make the Dragonlance setting a little different than a typical D&D game at that time. Basically, they replaced halflings with a great story telling device and an abomination at the gaming table.

[gurgleflep]

Last time I heard mention of the kender was over in Friendly Banter and Yora had something worth quoting. This is one of the truest statement I've seen on these forums in ages.


*snip*
Kenders are a race of Rob Schneiders.

[Vertharrad]

Kender are a unholy travesty that needs to be cleansed with fire!!! Yeah Dragonlance Campaign Setting is the book your looking for. Ironically Malystrix scared some fear into some of them when she almost annihilated them. Damn they escape justice again!!!

[Morithias]

Ironically the Afflicted Kender make VERY good snipers.

They count as halflings so they count for the halfling rogue racial class.

So a Dark Afflicted Kender. +4 small, +2 Kender, +8 dark, = +14 base to hide.

and the halfling rogue variant reduces penalty for sniping from -20 to -10.

So you better pump spot, or this Kender is going to riddle you with arrows that you RAW have no way to see where they're coming from.

[ben-zayb]

The only time I recall Kender being mentioned was on an 4th ed / D&D Next thread about how pissed they are of said race and how it was practically replacing the halfling as the "cute race"

[Ravens_cry]

To give a better explanation, Kender are a race without fear and a notorious racial habit of kleptomania. And no, they do not confine such activities to NPCs and monsters. No one's pockets are safe from a Kender's 'borrowing' proclivities.
Which means they are the perfect race for that player that doesn't give a hoot about anyone else's fun and just wants to wreak havoc and troll the DM and the other players.
They are such annoying little Mary Sues that the only reason they still exist is because an almost literal deus ex machina, or at least a literal deus.
The only good they did was help distance future versions of halflings from their fat hobbit homebody Tolkien ripoff roots.

[ArcturusV]

Forgot that Kender also get "The Taunt", which is also annoying. Basically they have an SLA that works like the Mayhem spell in Skyrim, everyone within earshot of a Kender using it goes ape**** and starts stabbing anyone near them.

...

Yeah. That didn't get annoying. I hope they didn't update "The Taunt" in the third edition version... If they dropped anything, that would be the thing to drop.

[VariSami]

They only receive a +4 bonus to Bluff checks to taunt people. The rules for taunting are on page 29 of the Dragonlance Campaign Setting.

[Demonic_Spoon]

I'll just leave this here (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Kender)

[Marnath]

I'll just leave this here (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Kender)

I approve of the included picture. Kender and Tinker gnomes make such little sense that I actively avoided most of the novels set in dragonlance. Except for the minotaur-centric ones, because they're awesome.

[Saintheart]

Put it this way, even Weis and Hickman themselves say in the first volume of the Dragonlance novels that "The worst punishment one can inflict on a kender is to lock him up. The worst punishment one can inflict on anyone else is to lock him up with a kender."

[Vertharrad]

I'll just leave this here (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Kender)

You good sir get a cookie.

[Ansem]

Same reason Dodo's don't exist anymore....
Wiped off the face of the earth, except for a good reason with Kender.

[Lucid]

We've had a Kender wizard in a 2e game once. He was not only annoying but also very arrogant.
During the second session he was sitting on the shoulders of another character who triggered a trap. They fell down the stairs and got knocked out.
The kender's bodyguard ran down to check on him and snapped his neck when the rest of the party wasn't looking.
This is of course the proper way to deal with a Kender

[Keneth]

Kenders are like the evil alignments: There are good ways to play them, and there are bad ways to play them.

[Phelix-Mu]

I like kender. Sorry, there it is. You don't have to play one to type any more than you have to play douche elves or gruff dwarves. The kleptomania thing is an interesting device, but if a player is abusing it, then that player would probably have found something else to use to make everyone's life difficult (i.e., problem-player, not problem-kender). In the stories, lots of the kender actually steal on accident as much as on purpose, and will give stuff back if people notice that it's missing. And in a game that ranges from opportunism to murderhobos, it seems strange that kender illicit so much ire.

Now, maybe it's just me, but somewhat insane and with a loose definition of "personal property?" That sounds like role play gold. Why is everyone here so anti-them, when the forum loves stuff like changelings ("oh, you don't like me being you? wait, is there something wrong with that?"), whisper gnomes ("I don't need a reason to be sneaky or to pilfer; I'm so good at it, it would be wrong not to"), and tieflings ("insane, evil, meh, six one way, half-dozen the other")?

Sounds like a double standard.

[Marnath]

I like kender. Sorry, there it is. You don't have to play one to type any more than you have to play douche elves or gruff dwarves. The kleptomania thing is an interesting device, but if a player is abusing it, then that player would probably have found something else to use to make everyone's life difficult (i.e., problem-player, not problem-kender). In the stories, lots of the kender actually steal on accident as much as on purpose, and will give stuff back if people notice that it's missing. And in a game that ranges from opportunism to murderhobos, it seems strange that kender illicit so much ire.

Now, maybe it's just me, but somewhat insane and with a loose definition of "personal property?" That sounds like role play gold. Why is everyone here so anti-them, when the forum loves stuff like changelings ("oh, you don't like me being you? wait, is there something wrong with that?"), whisper gnomes ("I don't need a reason to be sneaky or to pilfer; I'm so good at it, it would be wrong not to"), and tieflings ("insane, evil, meh, six one way, half-dozen the other")?

Sounds like a double standard.

Because other races almost unanimously hate the three races you just cited for doing the things they do, while kender are loved or at least tolerated by every race for no reason. It's terrible writing.

[ben-zayb]

Well, now that I've seen that link, I'll take a stab at this. :smallbiggrin:

Why is everyone here so anti-them, when the forum loves stuff like changelings ("oh, you don't like me being you? wait, is there something wrong with that?"), whisper gnomes ("I don't need a reason to be sneaky or to pilfer; I'm so good at it, it would be wrong not to"), and tieflings ("insane, evil, meh, six one way, half-dozen the other")?
Could you be as kind as to point out at which 3.5 material did these Changeling and Whisper Gnome characteristics/mindsets have been claimed/stereotyped?

As for the tiefling... I don't get it either TBH. I do know, however, that their descriptions don't try to paint them in a light opposite to what they're expected to do (evil stuff). And going by the race descriptions, they are neither big Mary Sues nor a race that forces NPCs to, by default, have an initial impression for them of "it's so cute, i'm gonna die it melts my heart".

[Doc Kraken]

Because other races almost unanimously hate the three races you just cited for doing the things they do, while kender are loved or at least tolerated by every race for no reason. It's terrible writing.

I dunno; it's been a while since I've read Dragonlance, but I remember a lot of frustration from everyone around them who didn't personally know the kender in question (and even from some people who did!).

Tabletop-wise, they strike me as incredibly easy to annoy the group with, but not unplayably so. You'd just have to be very, very careful as to who got to play them...

[Coidzor]

To give a better explanation, Kender are a race without fear and a notorious racial habit of kleptomania. And no, they do not confine such activities to NPCs and monsters. No one's pockets are safe from a Kender's 'borrowing' proclivities.
Which means they are the perfect race for that player that doesn't give a hoot about anyone else's fun and just wants to wreak havoc and troll the DM and the other players.
They are such annoying little Mary Sues that the only reason they still exist is because an almost literal deus ex machina, or at least a literal deus.
The only good they did was help distance future versions of halflings from their fat hobbit homebody Tolkien ripoff roots.

Also, the creators and writers of the setting book encourage these bad habits.

Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weiss have a lot to answer for, and not just because they named the one every Kender player is in love with after David Hasslehoff.


The kleptomania thing is an interesting device

Stop right there. That is so wrong, I can't even begin to see where you're coming from with this one.

Kleptomania and thinking that being the party thief means constantly screwing over the other players is not interesting and doesn't add to the game, it's annoying and at best subtracts from others in order to please the kender player and possibly the DM(since they've been fool enough to give their blessing to this malarkey) and more usually just makes the game less fun for everyone, since if you're going to play a stab one another in the back game, a kender isn't appropriate there, either, as they'd just get ganked before being able to become part of the party.


Why is everyone here so anti-them, when the forum loves stuff like changelings ("oh, you don't like me being you? wait, is there something wrong with that?"), whisper gnomes ("I don't need a reason to be sneaky or to pilfer; I'm so good at it, it would be wrong not to"), and tieflings ("insane, evil, meh, six one way, half-dozen the other")?

Are you sure you're not just pulling that out of your ass? It sounds like you're just pulling that out of your ass. :smallconfused:

Changeling players that act that way are just going out of their way to be antagonistic, but unless I missed something when I read through it, they're also acting against their fluff to be that trollishly foolish unless they had some kind of active antagonism within the party, which is a suicidal pastime and results in being self-corrected sooner or later.

Whisper gnomes that pull the idiot card of "I'm a thief so I've got to steal from the party or create trouble by stealing like an idiot everything that isn't nailed down and automatically creates suspicion and trouble for the party even if I'm not caught" get flak for it, because it's bad player behavior and because it doesn't really fit with whisper gnomes.

Hell, the default fluff for tieflings ranges from tragic dark anti-hero trying to escape the spectre of their heritage or choosing good in spite of the dark urges of their very nature to being unabashedly evil and as over the top and bad as they possibly can be, hamming it up, since if they're going to be bad, they might as well have fun with it. And everything I've seen on the subject is that's pretty much how they're played.

When they're not red-skinned Russian (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UqFPujRZWo)femme fatales (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FemmeFatale). But that's more back-creep, as I recall.

[Thunderfist12]

There was one time where the kender in our party p***ed us off so bad. My character was a borderline insane elf pyromancer, so it didn't take much to make him snap.

Long story short, maximized empowered fireball, myself and the party included.

Being the highest-level character in the party after our very short encounter with a lich and a few wights, I was one of the only survivors.

The other one was the kender.:smallfurious:

[Scumbaggery]

Recently had someone try playing a Kender in my group. My character is a very greedy rogue who will go to any lengths in order to increase his wealth.

The kender tried stealing from my horde.
I stole his life. Plot armor doesn't grant you touch AC.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I approve of the included picture. Kender and Tinker gnomes make such little sense that I actively avoided most of the novels set in dragonlance. Except for the minotaur-centric ones, because they're awesome.

+1 to this. The Minotaur Wars were some of the only DL books that I actually bought.

[ArcturusV]

Huh, and for me the only Dragonlance stuff I could get into was ones featuring Raistlin.

[Psyren]

They're in the rubbish heap where they belong.


Kenders are like the evil alignments: There are good ways to play them, and there are bad ways to play them.

Kenders are like the evil alignments: the stories where they ruin a game far outnumber the stories where they improve it.

[ArcturusV]

Kenders are like Gnomes: Best used for Punting. :smallwink:

[Vedhin]

Kender are like roaches: They come in infestations and won't die.

[gurgleflep]

They're part of every beholders primary diet!


Lords of Madness page 41.
A Beholder's favorite foods include small living mammals, exotic mushrooms and other fungi, gnomes, beef, pork, colorful leafy vegetables, leaves, flower petals, insects, and birds.

Kender are gnomes :smallwink: It's a shame they probably cause such bad indigestion.

[The Glyphstone]

They're part of every beholders primary diet!



Kender are gnomes :smallwink: It's a shame they probably cause such bad indigestion.

Technically, Kender are halflings. Gnomes are a different (and just as annoying) species. Just saying.

[Phelix-Mu]

Since when does kleptomania= must steal from friends? If the problem-player considers the party members targets for antagonism, that is the player's fault, and a matter for the DM to try to handle out-of-game. It's perfectly possible to be obsessed with stealing things from anyone that isn't your friends (or only stealing harmless things from your friends..like their fork at the dinner table).

Again, the negative stereotypes for the other races that I cited are just as stilted against their archetypes as everyone seems to be for kender. Changelings can change their face, so obviously they're terrible cause that player is going to make a point of having the changeling ruin my character's reputation. Same for other thief types, or those with demonic heritage; obviously going to ruin the party, right?

Most of the anger that has been levied against kender could be said of halflings generally; known for stealing and for looking cute. I still think people are overreacting, but it is a forum....so....:smallsmile:

[Coidzor]

Since when does kleptomania= must steal from friends?

The description of constantly pickpocketing everyone around them, especially their companions, as their ideal state of happiness. For starters.

Add in that's the traditional way for new and/or problem players to interpret kleptomania, because who are they around with the most opportunity to steal from? Their party.


Technically, Kender are halflings. Gnomes are a different (and just as annoying) species. Just saying.

Count as halflings for some mechanical stuff, but are either mutated gnomes or mutated elves, as I recall.


Again, the negative stereotypes for the other races that I cited are just as stilted against their archetypes as everyone seems to be for kender.

No. Kender being played like that are being played true to type and true to their fluff. Changeling trolls are not being played true to type or fluff. Whispergnome trolls are not being played true to type or fluff. Tiefling trolls are not being played true to type or fluff in most cases.

Kender trolls? Always true to type and fluff because that's what they were meant to be. And they're supposed to be loved for it except for by stodgy or evil people.

Have you really not read their description in the sourcebooks or even clicked on the 1d4chan link which has the convenient deconstruction? :smallconfused:

[Psyren]

Since when does kleptomania= must steal from friends? If the problem-player considers the party members targets for antagonism, that is the player's fault, and a matter for the DM to try to handle out-of-game. It's perfectly possible to be obsessed with stealing things from anyone that isn't your friends (or only stealing harmless things from your friends..like their fork at the dinner table).

Again, the negative stereotypes for the other races that I cited are just as stilted against their archetypes as everyone seems to be for kender. Changelings can change their face, so obviously they're terrible cause that player is going to make a point of having the changeling ruin my character's reputation. Same for other thief types, or those with demonic heritage; obviously going to ruin the party, right?

Most of the anger that has been levied against kender could be said of halflings generally; known for stealing and for looking cute. I still think people are overreacting, but it is a forum....so....:smallsmile:

The problem is that the most prominent kender in fiction did steal from his party members, routinely. There's no other example for most players to follow so they tend to fall into that pattern by default, and the DL books do nothing to dissuade it by constantly playing up how hilarious it is ("LOL guys even Bahamut likes them!") and having all kinds of convenient and beneficial plot turns befall them because of their kleptomania.

Whereas there are plenty of halflings in fiction, from Lidda to Frodo to Lem to Belkar, plenty of whom are not crooks and none of whom have stolen from the party.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Phelix, the difference between kender and other races is that other races are given the tools to do antagonistic things. Kender are given these tools, told that the desire to do these things is hardwired into the brains of each and every one of them, and then are loved by everyone non-evil anyway.

[Phelix-Mu]

Hmm. Then maybe I am misremembering the books; it's been ages, and my experience has been stilted by personal experiences with kender that were pleasant to awesome. And I haven't read the 3.5 source material.

But I think it bears repeating that not every character of race x needs to have much or anything to do with stereotypes x, y, or z for that race. I love characters that break down these misconceptions. If the sourcebooks portray them as steal-freaks that have brainwashed everyone into liking them, that's clearly a problem, but I don't remember the 2e material being quite so terrible.

Here's my character--one of my favorites ever--from way back in 2e. He was a kender cleric/thief. To demonstrate their lack of "private property" concpet, he

- Liked to get up close to people, in their personal space.
- Liked to touch things; after remarking about that beautiful painting, he'd go up and touch it.
- If asked to empty his pockets, he would be surprised what he found there. Some of it might have belonged to another party member, but never something important (just recognizably not his...keep in mind equipment tracking was much looser in many 2e campaigns because encumbrance was terribly complicated to track). So, maybe a broken quill from the wizard, a sock from the fighter, or that apple from the apple vendor they'd run into in town.
- He rarely "procured" something from someone else because it was valuable, rather to satisfy his curiosity, and if asked, would always return it after being surprised to find that he had it in the first place. Honestly, he rarely stole anything in-game; rather, it was something he was known for doing off-stage. He never stole any equipment from another party member.
- Sometimes he'd "wander off." The rest of the party eventually caught onto this being a warning sign, and when situations were delicate or around important people, someone would keep the kender close at hand (and I accepted this and never had him really try to sneak off, just occasionally complain about not being able to touch pretty things).

As to the fearlessness, he really just was unpredictable in combat early in his career; with a poor concept of danger, he'd occasionally get in over his head. Later on, still unpredictable, just with a bit of caution from some experience (he was the rare wise kender...made for an interesting study in contrasts).

Another player of mine played a kender fighter who was fearless and curious, but never really touched the stealing role play. Was overall a cool character, and we explained her atypical behavior by having her be a kender that was raised by a human guardian after her parents died. Typical fluff, of the kind that just about everyone uses at some point to explain why some character of some sort doesn't conform to the standard stereotypes.

I don't expect any of you will take my personal experience as proof that things aren't as bad as everyone says, but I'd like you all to be aware that there is nothing that compels a player playing a kender to be a total pain in the you-know-what.

[Emperor Ing]

I don't expect any of you will take my personal experience as proof that things aren't as bad as everyone says, but I'd like you all to be aware that there is nothing that compels a player playing a kender to be a total pain in the you-know-what.

As a race, the Kender are somewhat obscure. The player has to go out of their way to decide to play one of those despicable creatures. If they make that decision the player should very-well know what they're getting into, and choosing that race, out of the hundreds of other races scattered across countless splatbooks and setting-specific supplements, is a deliberate decision.

I put Kender in the same category as Chaotic Neutral. No. Just no.

[Phelix-Mu]

As a race, the Kender are somewhat obscure. The player has to go out of their way to decide to play one of those despicable creatures. If they make that decision the player should very-well know what they're getting into, and choosing that race, out of the hundreds of other races scattered across countless splatbooks and setting-specific supplements, is a deliberate decision.

I put Kender in the same category as Chaotic Neutral. No. Just no.

I was playing while the original DL novel series were still coming out (or shortly thereafter), and it was a much better known race in our group. Nowadays, they really have dropped off the map (along with much of the DL setting).

I think part of the problem is the typical D&D penchant for inconsistent quality in writing, particularly when it comes to fluff. Now, as a vet of 2e, this hardly bothers me; 2e basically taught people to ignore the books whenever necessary, because much of the rules were awfully complex, lacked a logical basis, and were only marginally reflected in the fluff. So, if there was a lack in tolerable kender role models, I would just improvise.

3e as a system is much more complete, but there are still numerous books that leave either their fluff or crunch, or both, wanting (Complete Psionics, lack of ToB errata, and so forth). On the other hand, much of 3.x is pretty damn good.

[Karnith]

Count as halflings for some mechanical stuff, but are either mutated gnomes or mutated elves, as I recall.
The first kender were created/transformed/mutated/what have you from a group of inquisitive gnomes, changed by the magic of the Graygem of Gargath.
Yes, I am disregarding the other story about kender coming straight from Reorx's smiths.
Incidentally, dwarves were also created out of gnomes, specifically those gnomes who coveted the Graygem out of greed. Dwarves don't much care to consider how closely-related they are to gnomes and kender (and gully dwarves, for that matter).

[Hamste]

The first kender were created/transformed/mutated/what have you from a group of inquisitive gnomes, changed by the magic of the Graygem of Gargath.
Yes, I am disregarding the other story about kender coming straight from Reorx's smiths.
Incidentally, dwarves were also created out of gnomes, specifically those gnomes who coveted the Graygem out of greed. Dwarves don't much care to consider how closely-related they are to gnomes and kender (and gully dwarves, for that matter).

There is actually some debate saying Dwarves came first (as told by some dwarves).


I personally like the Kender backstory. I mean one of three races designed with three specificfspecific fallacies but are still successful anyways. Dwarves with xenophobia and greed, gnomes with tinkering and kender with foolishness and kleptomania.

Kender are closer to a chaotic neutral character than an evil character mentioned earlier. They can be fun and interesting but people put way to much emphasize on the stealing (not even the right stuff...they are supposed to target interesting things not that boring old magical item but that interesting shiny copper coin)and not enough on the curiosity, accuracy or wierd loyalty they tend to display. They have so many good traits and though I agree the ambivalent attitude to them shown by the majority of the races is odd, the chances are they could survive. I mean the massive bonus to ranged weapons alone would guarantee them atleast success in a hunter gathering society. Then there is that odd drive to follow kender law (attributed to aging and losing the wanderlust) that makes it so they can breed and actually hold land (though how they would ever hold it against a serious invader I have no idea...probably through a lot of traps, retreating and guilt tripping the Solomonic knights).

[ArcturusV]

But really as far as the Kleptomania goes? It's a temptation thing for players along with a sort of willful reading into it of what they want.

I mean, the intention, and this comes up quite a bit with the "iconic" Tasslehoff in the novels, is that they steal random **** because it's "neat". They steal things like spoons, or salt shakers, etc. Their kleptomania tends to be "minor" stuff unless the DM is handing the Kender a Deus Ex Machina "Oh yeah, you totally stole that artifact that someone had laying around that is plot critical when no one was looking and even blatantly passing by and thus ruining my planned plot".

So the idea is that their kleptomania is supposed to be things like them being hoarders, not like a dragon, but like we think of it in our world. The sort of people who take things like little bits of useless string, or stole some bottle because they thought it was "neat" and promptly lost it in their pack, or stole someone's spoons, etc.

What usually happens is the kender PC does something like steals a wand from the party wizard, steals healing potions, steals coins, gems, etc, from their fellow players. Then the PC tries to justify it by saying "What, Kender are all kleptos, I can't help it!". Even though that sort of blatant "steal anything of value from anyone" isn't really how Kenders worked in the fiction. You didn't see Tasselhoff stealing Tanis's magic Wyrmslayer sword. Or ripping off Raistlin's Staff of Magius. Except for when he got Plot Deus Ex'd, it was things like "I stole that old lady's plate from her dinner table" or "I stole the innkeeper's silverware", or "I stole that 5 year old kid's stick figure drawing".

But even if they did play it up like that? And not the more destructive "Greedy Rogue and why we won't let people play rogues" angle (Which is a thing in some groups, because the Rogue always steals from his party members, can't ever be trusted to be the one on watch, etc), it's still not welcome. I mean do you want to have a critical NPC that you want to be helpful to you suddenly ticked because your klepto kender stole his favorite book, or stole his mother's fine china?

... and that sort of thing also happens all the time in the fiction. So it's not even something you can argue that the DM is just being out to get you or not playing to type. It's built in.

[Ravens_cry]

A kender steal magical panpipes once, so there is at least one precedent for them taking things of more than nominal value. See the Stormblade novel. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormblade_%28novel%29)

[ArcturusV]

Haven't read it. My instinct was that it was a Deus Ex thing again, because that tends to happen with Kender, and was expecting something like "oh, and then this panpipe he just happened to steal was the only thing that could KO the dragon guarding the sword" or the like.

Might be the exception, but still an exception, if it wasn't a Deus Ex. At the very least there's a lot more support for the "They are attracted to and steal random junk with no/minimal/sentimental only value".

[Ravens_cry]

Haven't read it. My instinct was that it was a Deus Ex thing again, because that tends to happen with Kender, and was expecting something like "oh, and then this panpipe he just happened to steal was the only thing that could KO the dragon guarding the sword" or the like.

Might be the exception, but still an exception, if it wasn't a Deus Ex. At the very least there's a lot more support for the "They are attracted to and steal random junk with no/minimal/sentimental only value".
Kender as a whole are one big Deus ex machina. Why aren't the pests eradicated from existence? Because their god literally makes sure it doesn't happen.

[gurgleflep]

Technically, Kender are halflings. Gnomes are a different (and just as annoying) species. Just saying.

Halflings? Well, they still cause indigestion!

[ArqArturo]

Just put him alongside a Jerren halfling with favored enemy (kender) and he'll chill.

[Coidzor]

Just put him alongside a Jerren halfling with favored enemy (kender) and he'll chill.

Well, he'll be in chili, I suppose. :smallamused:

[gurgleflep]

Just put him alongside a Jerren halfling with favored enemy (kender) and he'll chill.


Well, he'll be in chili, I suppose. :smallamused:

These! Totally these!

[Vertharrad]

Haven't read it. My instinct was that it was a Deus Ex thing again, because that tends to happen with Kender, and was expecting something like "oh, and then this panpipe he just happened to steal was the only thing that could KO the dragon guarding the sword" or the like.

Might be the exception, but still an exception, if it wasn't a Deus Ex. At the very least there's a lot more support for the "They are attracted to and steal random junk with no/minimal/sentimental only value".

I've read 1 1/4 books of DL and in the first one Tasselhoff stole a plot needed MAGIC necklace/medallion that Raistlin uses later in the book. This right here is what gets players up in arms. I've played in a game 1-on-1 where it became customary for me to pick the kender up and shake, to get back my item. If you guys want to ignore the fact that Dragonlance would be fine without the deus ex klepto's be my guest, just don't expect reasonable people to do that. IMHO a god would've slaughtered them during the Cataclysm while the other gods were busy with the King-Priest. And Malystryx should've been able to slaughter all of them. I think Paladine either tolerates them or is a 'tard. The true Bahamut would probably not want them around...

[ArcturusV]

Yeah. Exactly. The Twins Trilogy comes to mind. Its a set of three books all about Raistlin sort of completing his fall to Evil, traveling through time to get enough power to go into the Abyss, kick Tahkisis's ass, and become the god that replaces her. And Caramon who has basically been turned into Raistlin's accomplish/broken shell of a man trying to cope and find a way to stop his evil brother. Also some white mage (Cleric of Paladine) who is a total dipwad and for some reason she believes a mage of the Black Robes (Someone SWORN TO EVIL, openly wearing a sign of their dedication to EVIL) when he claims he wants to kill Tahkisis to bring peace to Krynn...

... and somehow they jam Tasselhoff in those books for... some reason? Nothing really. He manages to steal a Time Travel Artifact that is the key to resolving the entire trilogy and somehow proves that kenders are immune to time travel paradox or something...

So another case of him just "happening" to steal something that solves a plot. Course this is also backfilled among things like him stealing spoons, blankets, etc, and other assorted junk 90% of the time.

[johnbragg]

Hmm. Then maybe I am misremembering the books; it's been ages, and my experience has been stilted by personal experiences with kender that were pleasant to awesome. And I haven't read the 3.5 source material.

But I think it bears repeating that not every character of race x needs to have much or anything to do with stereotypes x, y, or z for that race. I love characters that break down these misconceptions. If the sourcebooks portray them as steal-freaks that have brainwashed everyone into liking them, that's clearly a problem, but I don't remember the 2e material being quite so terrible.

No, that's pretty much what I remember from 2e.


Here's my character--one of my favorites ever--from way back in 2e. He was a kender cleric/thief. To demonstrate their lack of "private property" concpet, he

- Liked to get up close to people, in their personal space.
- Liked to touch things; after remarking about that beautiful painting, he'd go up and touch it.
- If asked to empty his pockets, he would be surprised what he found there. Some of it might have belonged to another party member, but never something important (just recognizably not his...keep in mind equipment tracking was much looser in many 2e campaigns because encumbrance was terribly complicated to track). So, maybe a broken quill from the wizard, a sock from the fighter, or that apple from the apple vendor they'd run into in town.

Which means that you purposely disregarded the fluff and only had non-valuable items pop up in your pockets. Basically, "cheating." Kender have no concept of private property, not "no concept of private property with a value of less than 1 gp". Parties that played with kender who weren't "cheating" like you were had to do stuff like make a random roll to see whether a given item was with its owner or with the kender. Which sucks butt when you're suddenly in a fight and the wizard's wand of lightning bolts is with the kender thief.

The books say "This is what a kender is." You crossed out the worst part, the parts everyone hates, and then ask why everyone hates kender.


- He never stole any equipment from another party member.

Cheating. Like playing a paladin who kicks orphans.


I don't expect any of you will take my personal experience as proof that things aren't as bad as everyone says, but I'd like you all to be aware that there is nothing that compels a player playing a kender to be a total pain in the you-know-what.

Nothing compels anyone to do anything. If your group wants to play a morbidly obese elf who enjoys lighting his farts on fire, you can have fun "playing against type." But the racial description given by TSR, which created the concept of "Kender" is basically "pain in the butt." Which is why kender are regarded as pains in the butt.

[ArqArturo]

Cheating. Like playing a paladin who kicks orphans.

Those orphans have Cancer Mage levels.

Anyways, I never really liked DL because of the really convoluted storyline (doesn't help much that the story is actually the development team's actual D&D sessions... Ok, little bit of envy there), especially with the time of Mortals.

[ArcturusV]

Fifth Age where the gods said Smell Ya Later and left Krynn? Never read it, just aware of it, kinda sounds silly considering the entire setting is about how the gods had such a serious stranglehold on the world before that. I never liked Dragonlance for another reason though, because it WAS someone's DnD campaign made into a setting, the setting is Story Based. The entire world is structured around the pissing contest between the Gods and using the Dragons as their proxies.

Which sounds cool when you think of it in terms of dragon wars and such. But it runs into a problem. The players can never win. Which means they can never impact the setting in any real, meaningful way. If you resolve the plot that defines the setting of the dragon wars and the gods bickering... the setting just doesn't have anything else to offer. Game's broke. Course if you make a campaign where you're not going to impact that plot line and worry about breaking the setting... why are you in Krynn? You're avoiding the one reason to play in Krynn (Dragon Wars).

[Ravens_cry]

Yeah, it made for better stories than play in my opinion. It's like you are playing a bit part in someone else's story, rather than creating an epic adventure of your own.
Speaking of the titular Dragonlance, I think a ranged weapon, like a bow, would be better suited for the rider of a creature that flies.
Damn it it didn't look cool though.

[ArcturusV]

Yeah.... but remember what the first time you really saw it used was? It was trapping a dragon in a cage, and about what, 60 knights just melee murder stabbing frenzy it with the lances? Also one of my favorite bits of DnD fiction, the whole episode around the High Clerist's Tower.

[Ravens_cry]

Yeah.... but remember what the first time you really saw it used was? It was trapping a dragon in a cage, and about what, 60 knights just melee murder stabbing frenzy it with the lances? Also one of my favorite bits of DnD fiction, the whole episode around the High Clerist's Tower.
That sounds horrible. I'd rather watch bear baiting.:smallyuk:
It also sounds like a typical D&D session or late 20th century RTS: crowd around the big thing and stab until dead.

[nedz]

Well this thread derailed into a Kender love fest real fast.

I have not seen Kender played too often, but I have seen them played very well. They should fill the role of providing an occasional comedic diversion rather than as an enemy within. The trick is to underplay the klepto stuff as well as being somehow useful to the party.

[ArcturusV]

Horrible? What's horrible about using an evil magic MacGuffin to lure dragons into a tower that was built specifically to trap dragons like a roach motel where they can't move, can't escape, etc, then having 60 knights pop out of alcoves and murder frenzy stab with legendary dragonbane weapons until they are chunky salsa? :smallbiggrin:

[Ravens_cry]

Horrible? What's horrible about using an evil magic MacGuffin to lure dragons into a tower that was built specifically to trap dragons like a roach motel where they can't move, can't escape, etc, then having 60 knights pop out of alcoves and murder frenzy stab with legendary dragonbane weapons until they are chunky salsa? :smallbiggrin:
I had an idea for a setting where blood was an alchemical catalyst used for runic magic involving colliding sigils. Water and fire runes colliding made steam, air and fire made an explosion, earth and air disintegrated the material into dust, water and earth made mud, etcetera.
Dragon's blood was the best catalyst of all, so the rare, few dragons in the world were strung up in factories where their blood was periodically drained, being fed just enough to stay alive under the circumstances but not enough to have enough energy to escape.
Dragonlance sounds worse though.

[Vertharrad]

Well this thread derailed into a Kender love fest real fast.

I have not seen Kender played too often, but I have seen them played very well. They should fill the role of providing an occasional comedic diversion rather than as an enemy within. The trick is to underplay the klepto stuff as well as being somehow useful to the party.

If Kender ever earn the right to love from anyone...the world would end in a blazing heapballl of death.

[ArqArturo]

If Kender ever earn the right to love from anyone...the world would end in a blazing heapballl of death.

There's always someone that will love Kender, regardless.

[Coidzor]

There's always someone that will love Kender, regardless.

Some men just want to watch the world burn.

[Phelix-Mu]

Ah, well after being accused of "cheating at DnD," I think I officially lost this thread.

/bowsout

[Ravens_cry]

Some men just want to watch the world burn.
And some want to pick its pockets while wielding a cursed rod of wonder and playing 52 card pick up with a Deck of Many Things.

[ArqArturo]

Well, he'll be in chili, I suppose. :smallamused:

I think it's more like Kender sashimi, considering Jerren are vile.

[Psyren]

The books say "This is what a kender is." You crossed out the worst part, the parts everyone hates, and then ask why everyone hates kender.


The cheating accusation is a bit harsh I think, but this part I do agree with. If you're going to play kender such that they are not actually kender, then of course they will be more reasonable in a party, but that doesn't really have anything to do with why people dislike the race.

[johnbragg]

Ah, well after being accused of "cheating at DnD," I think I officially lost this thread.

/bowsout

That was harsher than I meant it to sound, but you're asking what's wrong with kender. People tell you at length, and your response is that you didn't play your kender that way. But "your kender" is in contradiction of every piece of canonical data about kenders. And since kender, unlike elves or gnomes or dwarves or centaurs or orcs or goblins, are completely a creation of the TSR Dragonlance team, they get to say what kender are and aren't.

You weren't "cheating", you were houseruling kender into something playable, which is better than playing TSR:DL official kender. But your kender is as far from everyone else's kender (for example, NOT treating other party members' pockets as communal storage spaces) as a Lawful Neutral or a Neutral Good paladin.

I'm still not sure how you guys explained, in-game, why socks and broken quills were "transferred" from pocket to pocket and not wands and potions and gems.

[Morithias]

You weren't "cheating", you were houseruling kender into something playable, which is better than playing TSR:DL official kender. But your kender is as far from everyone else's kender (for example, NOT treating other party members' pockets as communal storage spaces) as a Lawful Neutral or a Neutral Good paladin.

Enforcer: Dragon 310 page 53.
And Sentinel: Dragon 310 page 50.

[johnbragg]

Enforcer: Dragon 310 page 53.
And Sentinel: Dragon 310 page 50.

Note that those two classes, who I assume are LN and NG paladin-equivalents, are specifically not called Paladins. So if you are playing a "Paladin" who acts like an Enforcer or a Sentinel, you're Doing It Wrong(TM).

[Bhaakon]

Which sounds cool when you think of it in terms of dragon wars and such. But it runs into a problem. The players can never win.

Sure you can win. Remember, that this is also the setting where a mortal successfully challenged and defeated the entire pantheon (granted, there were unintended consequences and time travel shenanigans and that made him change his mind about the whole thing, but he did it).

[Ravens_cry]

Sure you can win. Remember, that this is also the setting where a mortal successfully challenged and defeated the entire pantheon (granted, there were unintended consequences and time travel shenanigans and that made him change his mind about the whole thing, but he did it).
A mortal. Not a player.

[ArqArturo]

Note that those two classes, who I assume are LN and NG paladin-equivalents, are specifically not called Paladins. So if you are playing a "Paladin" who acts like an Enforcer or a Sentinel, you're Doing It Wrong(TM).

Actually, there are non-thieving kender, from what I remember, from something that happened with the Chaos Gem, or something; but, they've lost their ability to be fearless.

EDIT: They're called Afflicted Kender, I think.

[Thunderfist12]

No, the Afflicted still steal. They just aren't annoying, "innocent", or otherwise kenderlike anymore. They're like a race of... well, imagine a hybrid of Jerren and some twisted assassin-like people...

:belkar:

[Karnith]

Actually, there are non-thieving kender, from what I remember, from something that happened with the Chaos Gem, or something; but, they've lost their ability to be fearless.

EDIT: They're called Afflicted Kender, I think.
Afflicted Kender are those who survived the great dragon overlord Malystryx's rampage through Kendermore. They aren't jolly, they get afraid of things, and they are still quite capable of stealing (and willing to do so), though they don't do so innocently; they know exactly what they're doing. Kenderhome, Kendermore, whatever, it's been a while.

[Ravens_cry]

No, the Afflicted still steal. They just aren't annoying, "innocent", or otherwise kenderlike anymore. They're like a race of... well, imagine a hybrid of Jerren and some twisted assassin-like people...

:belkar:
Oh, Belkar isn't an assassin. Honestly, do you think he would stand it for long if he had someone telling him 'Kill this person, then that person for me'? Belkar is strictly freelance.

[Morithias]

Note that those two classes, who I assume are LN and NG paladin-equivalents, are specifically not called Paladins. So if you are playing a "Paladin" who acts like an Enforcer or a Sentinel, you're Doing It Wrong(TM).

By that logic if I play a dungeoncrasher or a Spirit Lion Totem, i'm not playing a fighter or a barbarian, but rather I'm "Doing It Wrong(TM)".

Elven Generalist wizard? Doing it wrong.
Cloistered Cleric? Doing it wrong.

Do I need to go on?

[Bhaakon]

A mortal. Not a player.

What does that matter? It sets the precedent that a sufficiently clever human can unseat a god (or all of them) and still be completely within the fluff of the setting. IIRC, Gilean, one of the three most powerful gods in the setting was also originally a mortal who became a god by reading a book with the knowledge of creation. So there are at least two pathways to divinity.

So as far as the whole "the PC's are a sideshow and they can't change anything" argument goes, that's only if they're not trying hard enough.

[hymer]

Elven Generalist wizard? Doing it wrong.
Cloistered Cleric? Doing it wrong.

What was being said was that if you play an elf necromancer and call it an Elven Generalist, you're doing it wrong. "Paladin" by itself indicates LG. "Paladin of Freedom" indicates CG, "Enforcer" indicates LN (IIRC).

Not saying anyone's right or wrong here, just trying to straighten out the arguments.

[Ravens_cry]

What does that matter? It sets the precedent that a sufficiently clever human can unseat a god (or all of them) and still be completely within the fluff of the setting. IIRC, Gilean, one of the three most powerful gods in the setting was also originally a mortal who became a god by reading a book with the knowledge of creation. So there's two pathways to divinity.

So as far as the whole "the PC's are a sideshow and they can't change anything" argument goes, that's only if they're not trying hard enough.
Again, that's NPC stuff, and is part of the problem.

[Bhaakon]

All the official fluff of every setting is "NPC stuff," so I'm not really seeing your point here.

The gates to the abyss and the tobril exist in the setting. The gods are statted out and described as mortal when in the material plane.

[Shpadoinkle]

Hey, you know That Guy? The one player your group has or has had that you don't even have to refer to by name, because everybody knows who you're talking about? That Guy who makes the game less fun by his very presence, baiting and trolling other players, doing "LOLsorandumb" stuff at every opportunity? That Guy whose character talks loudly, in public, about the party's very important and VERY VERY SECRET plans? That Guy who steals from other players in-game and sometimes even out-of-game? THAT Guy?

Kender are an entire race of That Guys, and essentially official sanction to act like a world-class dumbass. Any smart DM bans them.

[johnbragg]

By that logic if I play a dungeoncrasher or a Spirit Lion Totem, i'm not playing a fighter or a barbarian, but rather I'm "Doing It Wrong(TM)".

Elven Generalist wizard? Doing it wrong.
Cloistered Cleric? Doing it wrong.

Do I need to go on?

The Sentinel and the Enforcer take out what is fundamental to the D&D Paladin, rigid adherence to a specific concept of Lawful Good, and presumably replace it rigid adherence to just Law or just Good.

If you want to go have a discussion about Paladins, and say that everyone else is wrong about them because Sentinels and Enforcers don't act that way, go ahead.

Maybe I was unclear--you're not Doing It Wrong if you're playing a Sentinel or an Enforcer. But if you're playing a Paladin, and your character acts more LN or NG than LG, then you're going against the idea of the class.

[Coidzor]

Sure you can win. Remember, that this is also the setting where a mortal successfully challenged and defeated the entire pantheon (granted, there were unintended consequences and time travel shenanigans and that made him change his mind about the whole thing, but he did it).

A mortal. Not a player.

And because he's done it, you can't mess with the canon of the setting and step on his toes.

Or else you throw out the canon and go into completely uncharted territory that invalidates some significant fraction of the information on the setting that the DM has to go on.

IIRC, it's a fairly common complaint about the difficulties of playing in Dragonlance.


By that logic if I play a dungeoncrasher or a Spirit Lion Totem, i'm not playing a fighter or a barbarian, but rather I'm "Doing It Wrong(TM)".

Paladin without qualifiers means the bog standard LG Paladin and not a variant class, generally speaking, and that's clearly what was meant. :smallconfused:

[Bhaakon]

And because he's done it, you can't mess with the canon of the setting and step on his toes.

Or else you throw out the canon and go into completely uncharted territory that invalidates some significant fraction of the information on the setting that the DM has to go on.

IIRC, it's a fairly common complaint about the difficulties of playing in Dragonlance.


It's a common complaint, but, in this case, a nonsensical one.

"An NPC did it before!" Doesn't prevent PCs from trying it later, or attempting the same goal by different means, or trying to stop a different bad guy from copying said NPC. It's not like the dragon orbs, which are specifically mentioned as being all broken in the stories (so dumb).

The only "issue" is if you're playing back before the events in that book and do something that prevents them from occuring, but you run into the same problem trying to play in a historical version of any campaign setting.

[Coidzor]

It's a common complaint, but, in this case, a nonsensical one.

"An NPC did it before!" Doesn't prevent PCs from trying it later, or attempting the same goal by different means, or trying to stop a different bad guy from copying said NPC. It's not like the dragon orbs, which are specifically mentioned as being all broken in the stories (so dumb).

I wouldn't be so quick to label it as nonsensical, given that there are, in fact, some tricky decisions to be made when one comes across situations where one has to rewrite the setting due to grossly departing from an established metaplot which is the foundation of said setting.

More "An NPC is the one currently doing this," if one is playing a game set during when all of the fun stuff is happening, which has its own issues, where one either is obligated to be in a backwater avoiding the metaplot's NPCs going about enacting things or usurp their roles or play along and be second bananas to a party of NPCs in their own game.

As if an NPC already did it, there's generally either no ability to replicate the feat because the loophole they exploited was closed or no point in doing it as it's been resolved as I recall, though if not, then, you're right, there is room there for variations upon the theme.


The only "issue" is if you're playing back before the events in that book and do something that prevents them from occuring, but you run into the same problem trying to play in a historical version of any campaign setting.

Before and During are the areas considered most (potentially) problematic, IIRC. And then After is disliked for other reasons, which my recollection is a bit fuzzier on, I must admit, other than a vague recollection of "what now?" due to a perception of a lack of potential plot hooks and conflicts to use. *shrug* :smallconfused:

IIRC, one of the main draws of Dragonlance is to play during the Interesting Times, but playing in the Interesting Times is the most problematic thing to do.

Sort of like the old DOS Dragonlance computer games where, as I recall, there's actually a few instances where you're just flat out not allowed to do certain things as that'd screw up canon by eliminating X NPC.

[ArcturusV]

It's not even really incorrect as I see it though. I mean I presume you're making a reference to Raistlin there, unless another mortal did the same thing eventually in some novel I didn't read. But consider that you mentioned there was Time Travel Shenanigans that resulted in him having a momentary flash of good near the end, and allowed his brother to do what had to be done to stop the total and complete destruction of Krynn.

... then remember "Total and complete destruction of Krynn" was the result of a NPC effectively "Solving the plot" by killing the evil goddess and upsetting the meta-plot story that Krynn is based around. It's not even hyperbole, when they go to the future after Raistlin succeeds, everything has been destroyed. Everything.

So even the prototypical example of an NPC managing to "Solve" the plot in the setting resulted in the entire setting getting reamed into nothingness like some bad scene left on the cutting room floor of Shawshank Redemption.

The other example being the King-Priest of Ishtar, where "Good" has won, eliminated evil as any real force in the world, and finally solved the setting's plot... and what was the result of it? The great god of goodness, the platinum dragon dropping the Meteor Spell on Krynn, wiping out most life on the planet, and resetting the plot.

Because even the writers of the original setting realized that... the setting was defined by the conflict. If it was solved, it broke the setting. So something had to happen to stop anything from happening to break the stalemate. Heck, it's why they go chuck your ass off Krynn if you ever reach level 17 and might be powerful enough to fix the story.

Course, you also have problems like the fact that because it was based on a story... you either end up rehashing the story in a campaign "Okay guys, you're all playing the Heroes of the Lance/Their thinly veiled proxies in an alternate history", or you end up with a campaign where the players are aware that they aren't the Heroes of the Lance, and in the end if balance is going to be restored, the stalemate enforced again, etc, it's going to be because of the actions of someone else entirely. They have no real control over their own plot. The Dragon War, etc, is entirely out of their hands and they can only impact it in the most minor of ways.

[One Step Two]

I've had a skim through the pages here, and I've seen other threads where people talk about how Kender are the bane of life.

So, lets talk about what it takes to have a good Kender.

Firstly, you need two things:
1: A good GM
2: A responsible player.

I'm not going to lie, a Kender has the potential to be an irresponsible troublemaking little lout who can cause merry hell for everyone involved. It's why it takes a good player to make a Kender work, and work well.

First an foremost, I'd like to invite people to take a look at the Kencyclopedia (http://www.dlnexus.com/fan/rules/modules/11762.aspx). The guys a DL nexus have a love for all things Dragonlance, and this document, especially chapter Seven, which discusses Roleplaying a Kender.

It will highlight the things I will touch on here in greater detail.

First and foremost, the GM and the Player need to realise that Kender's lack the concept of personal ownership. This isn't Kleptomania (necessarily), it just means that if they see something really pretty/awesome/shiny, they are probably going to take a look at it up close. This doesn't mean he just happens to find it, the player needs to declare what he is taking, and why, then make a Slight of Hand check, then state what they are doing now they have it.
Do they put it back? Do they put it in their pockets as something else distracts them? Do they put it in someone else's pocket as they take alook at their shiny belt buckle?
An example from the last session I was playing in. We introduced a new Ranger character to the group. Our Kender immediately shook hands, and stated, his Slight of Hand check. He looked over the new characters' equipment, and found a Feather Token Swan Boat, which he immediately put in his cap, because it was a really pretty feather. When the Ranger spotted it, and asked for it back, the Kender stated, "Aww, but it looks so nice here, and if you need it I'll always be nearby." Our Solamnic knight hurrumphed, and the Kender pouted a little, then handed it back with a grin.

Kender taunting. This is a big one, read the Taunt rules, read them carefully, and then read them again. It isn't an instant social destroying button. It will shift the NPC's attitude down two Ranks, and while they feel like attacking the Kender, they are under no compulsion to do so. A good GM needs to listen to what the Kender is saying, and sometimes, some insults will not work.
An example from Play was when my Irda was undergoing his Test for high sorcerery. It was a temptation based on finding a female High Ogre who also wanted to save the dying race. Long story short, we ended up concieving together, and when things degraded, the Kender tried to taunt, and included the phrase, "Sterile old biddy." To which the GM smirked and said, "Yeah, she gets a circumstance bonus to her opposed roll."
It also won't lead to immediate combat, remember that context of the taunt is important. In the middle of a fight where emotions run high, an enemy wanting to crush the Kender for his words make sense. In a duel between two knights, a Taunt can simply aim to throw the target off his game a little, thought it may be considered as outside interference.

Another hard one to explain to some people, is that Fearless doesn't mean reckless. A Kender can be cautious. Sneaking into Dark haven, where the Knights of the Lilly cut off Kender hands is something a Kender can do without fear, but wanting to get caught is just silly, of course bad things happen when...
Kender get bored... okay, this is where the responsible player part probably matters most. To use the above example. We were sneaking around the lower levels of Dark Haven. Somehow we as a group began to discuss other tactical options by having a hidden entry into the compound, and drew the GM into the discussion, for a good few minutes. The Kender player smirked, and knew that we'd probably not stop the derail any time soon, and stated, "I'm bored." which made everyone stop dead mid-conversation, as he declared, "My Kender blows the horn they found in the guard room."
This made life harder, but in reality, we were dithering. This was perhaps the second time the Kender ever uttered those words in this stretch of the campaign, because our characters, in game were talking about politics, and the Kender didn't give his own left sock about it.
A GM and Kender player working together can keep a party on task this way. Using the Kender as a goad can be unseemly, but used in moderation, and it's tolerable.
Furthermore, their "boredom" could be an excuse to go scouting, as much as anything else. We had our Kender sneak off at night because he heard about something interesting over the hill, and was too excited to sleep. When he returned, he told us what he found, and once we could decipher it, I was able to prepare spells accordingly.

There's probaly more I haven't covered, but to me those are the big four things to keep an eye out as a Kender player.

In Summary:

Teleporting items don't happen, sleight of hand checks are needed.

Taunting isn't always a one-line frothing rage making tool.

Fearless isn't reckless.

Kender attention span's aren't there just to cause merry hell for no reason.
(They are already on an adventure)

Edit: Updated the line about taunting.

[Yajirobe]

I always thought that Dragonlance was about upholding balance.

At the end of the Age of Might, with Good unchecked by the forces of Evil and Neutrality, Good became intolerant. Every deviation from virtue was to be purged. Edict of Thought Control, Manifest Virtue, all those Kingpriest rulings, the decadent church. Was all about Good growing too large for its own (heh) good.

How about Evil you ask? Raistlin's future is Evil triumphant. Evil on DL does not create. It corrupts, it consumes. The empty shell of the world, the void that Astinus announces that will take the creation after the Hourglass is the sole constellation on the sky, that is Evil's nature. It consumes all until only void is left.

The thing about the Knights of Takhisis was that it "broke the rules". An Evil that did not consume. An Evil that could uphold a structure. Power for the Dark Lady, not for oneself ("High Clerist's Tower shall not fall while men of faith man its walls" "This tower was never besieged by men of faith. We can't be sure of the outcome" That was an actual dialogue on Dragons of Summer Flame)

Even on the massive retcon that the Age of Mortals trilogy was, they kept the same. A God of Light that fell into darkness, Paladine and Takhisis dying and Gilean being the sole Greater Deity left. I believe the good stories of DL would be about restoring Balance. A resistance movement on the height of Istar, Forces of good on the War of the Lance, a group of evil adventurers that are part of the group that Ariakas would turn into the Knights of Takhisis...

[Lord Raziere]

threads like this make me wonder if Krynn people just have a custom of making purposefully made "kender-gifts" that they just leave around designed to attract kenders to take them and lure them away from normal things. like giving a dog a bone so that they don't chew on something else.

[ArcturusV]

On Taunting: that's one view. It might even be very, very valid. But notice that when The Taunt gets explicitly used by a Kender in the novels? Mayhem is what it does. It starts bar fights. It starts citywide riots that takes the guard hours to put down. That's what it does. It's not unreasonable then for someone who's read the novels (Which they probably did if they're fired up about playing Dragonlance), to expect it to work the same way. It doesn't just "slightly tick off an NPC" or "Makes them flinch" or something. At least not in the novels so I can't imagine that anyone playing a Kender would necessarily expect it to just be something that any schmuck who invested a couple of ranks in Bluff would be able to pull off.

[One Step Two]

Oh yes, Taunting can incite bar brawls and riots, but there's that aforementioned requirement of a good DM and responsible player. It ties into their percieved recklessness. If the Kender believe he should be starting a bar brawl every time he enters a town, then frankly, he deserves anything that comes to him. It's also brought up in the PDF I linked in my above post, just because a Kender did it in the novels, doesn't mean a player should.
It's more a fallback to the whole "Everyone should have a good time" clause, along with dramatic appropriateness.

Kender tend to being kind-spirited, and upbeat. Inciting a bar brawl for no good reason is malicious. Doing so to distract the brutish town guards to allow the party members to make their escape, however, is something else entirely.

[Psyren]

@ OneStepTwo:

All of that seems like a great deal of extra work both for the other party members and the DM, just so one guy can have fun playing a Kender. Now the Ranger player needs to worry about "how can I realize my item was taken IC without metagaming?" And the Paladin needs to worry about "how much of these shenanigans should I tolerate?" and the DM needs to worry about "How will this NPC react to being Taunted? How about this one? And this one?" And the boredom example was probably the worst one of all, because here you have the other party members roleplaying when the kender player decides to aggro everything in hearing range for the lulz, simply because he was out of the spotlight for a few minutes. It's irritating at best and doesn't really help the issue as far as I'm concerned.

[Sith_Happens]

threads like this make me wonder if Krynn people just have a custom of making purposefully made "kender-gifts" that they just leave around designed to attract kenders to take them and lure them away from normal things. like giving a dog a bone so that they don't chew on something else.

On a related note, I bet the Explosive Runes market is booming.:smallwink: Pun not intended.

[ArqArturo]

To be honest, Dragonlance feels much more constrictive for players than Forgotten Realms, precisely because of the number of OP characters/organizations running around.

[old school man]

Some years back I ran a DL Campaign and this 16yr old young lady joined us and a kender handler was what she wanted to play.

Oh the headaches she gave me as the DM, but they were good ones to have.

I will never forget the time she rolled for her D-able-D and just looked up with a pooh eating grin and you could have heard a pin drop as everyone looked at her and waited and she just goes "opps" and the poor wizard saying "this is going to hurt" then everyone just busted out laughing.

She was a joy to DM for.




John

[Psyren]

To be honest, Dragonlance feels much more constrictive for players than Forgotten Realms, precisely because of the number of OP characters/organizations running around.

FR and Dragonlance are cut from the same cloth in many respects - interfering deities, black-and-white morality, incompetent Good etc. They even do the same thing where they tie arcane magic to the gods in some way that makes it quasi-divine.

[One Step Two]

@Psyren

At the moment, I can only really talk from personal experience, perhaps I wasn't clear in my description, or I'm just really lucky with the dynamic of my gaming group, so I'll try and elaborate.

For the above Ranger, the Kender decided to display the Feather Token proudly in his cap, and it was immediately obvious that it was taken in that instance.
For others, I've had my spellbook go missing in the morning as I am about to prepare spells. I told the party, and the Kender piped up with, "Is it this book? I found it earlier, I can't understand any of it, and worst of all, no pictures!"

Now, I could have lost my head, and gone off at him, but the reality was, I never missed it while I was sleeping. Our Kender borrowed it in the night, and I got it back when I asked, because they're not meant to be malicious.
I took it as an oppertunity to roleplay with the Kender and explain what the book was, and that it was very important to me, because without it I can't make fireballs appear which he enjoys quite a bit.
I suppose it might seem like more work, but to us it simply enhanced the experience, and build a relationship between the characters, and it taught me to be more careful about protecting my spells.

It has actually saved time in other encounters. Our kender is our friend, and know what's important to us. When we encounter other Kender, the GM is happy to say, "No need for spot checks or anything, whatever the other Kender borrow, your kender has borrowed back and put it where it belongs, except for a couple of swapped items."
Our GM is running adventures out of a module, I imagine we're meant to suffer a few lost items or Steel, but now those are slight of hand checks he doesn't need to worry about rolling.

Now, Paladins are a hard thing to gague, because Codes are odd like that. However, Paladins in Dragonlance are somewhat rare. The Setting has Knights, which follows different Measures, depending what order you are part of. Of the Three Orders which must be Lawful good, Crown, Sword and Rose Knights. In all of their Measures and responsibilities, the extoll certain virtues, such as Loyalty, Heroism, and Honor. But those are things that apply to the knight themselves. How they deal with Kender is up to the individual Knight in question. To my mind, if they learn something has gone missing, they would question their Kender friend first, and make sure they return it.
Knights, and Paladins with their stricter code, should recognise that most Kender aren't doing what they do because they are greedly little thieves. It's their curiosity and innocence that drive most of them during their wanderlust years.

Side note: In musing over how Paladins would deal with Kender, I realsied playing a Kender is like playing a Paladin. Hard to get right, but very easy to mess up. Both in that you can have a Judge Dread Paladin, who detects and smites, and a Kender who has the stickiest fingers, playing the worst of their sterotypes, ignoring other playstyles.

As for NPC reactions, well, I guess if you just want to let every person the party encounter, no matter who they are turn into a brute trying to attack the little bugger, then that's okay. But if you're in the middle of court, and the Kender makes a taunt, is the King is going to leap from his throne and try and knock him out, it seems a little odd, why not have him call for his guards? Making someone hostile towards you doesn't make them an idiot all of a sudden, however, I will admit to irrationality being a distinct possibility.

As for my boredom example, here's where I perhaps didn't give enough context. Our characters were meant to make a quick raid, get into Dark haven, find a specific item, and leave. When we stopped in the middle of their dungeons to discuss politics and tactics for about ten or so minutes in real time. Heck, even he was involved in the chatter. Our group has been known to derail games in this way before, sometimes entire gaming sessions have been lost because we got caught up just chatting away. It normally takes a little effort to get us all to get us back on track. The Kender player had an in-game way to break up what was, at that time, an in game discussion, without the GM needing to drop a platoon of wights on us.
It sucked in some ways, because the next two levels knew we were there, however, with all the guards converging on a couple of key intersections, fireballs made everything better.

As for the scouting bit? Yeah, he sucked up a bit of the spotlight, but we really were greatful for the intel. My usual spell loud-outs contain a couple of Orbs of acid, and Vitriolic sphere for damage. The black dragon we encountered would have had a good chuckle at me that day, so Scorching Ray's and a Wing Bind spell did wonders for us.

The player in question has never used a Kender's boredom as an excuse to cause hell for no good reason, is what I was mainly trying to say, and that the GM can also use it to help prod the party along at the same time if needed, with a few passed notes and a question of, "Hey guys, where did the kender go?"

[Sith_Happens]

So what happens if you phrase a request to a Kender to not steal your stuff in a way that they could theoretically understand? Something like, "If you find something that was placed in its current location by me, could you please leave it there?"

[ArcturusV]

As I recall that happened a few times in the stories? What happened was... the Kender would go something like "Well he obviously forgot it" or "It really shouldn't be there, it'll get wet/damaged!" and takes it anyway "For your own good" or the like.

Least that's what I remember. And then they kinda promptly forget that they "saved" it for you. And when you confront them about why your wizard scrolls are in his pack he just goes "Oh, yeah. I saved them from getting burned in the campfire while you slept and they were safely in your pack." or the like.

[Jan Mattys]

The thing is, Kender don't actually "steal" for themselves. They aren't greedy, they don't enjoy property. They are fascinated by all things.

In a party, it can be played more as a nuisance and less as a catastrophic kleptomonster, and still be pretty much in character.

Sure, you probably can't find a wand you really need, but if you scream "Burfas, DAMN YOU, where's my wand!!!" at the top of your lungs, he probably just opens his bag and throws it at you the next round, with his most innocent look.

Really, I understand the hate, but as long as the party is together, it's not a matter of a player stealing from others. A kender is just a repository for all things lost, you just have to deal with the absurd notion that you own your equipment :smallwink:

Kenders are communism incarnate :smallbiggrin:

[ArcturusV]

Well... see it always SOUNDS fun and loveable, etc, when you try to explain it like that. Or at least not something that is gonna harm you.

But think of that situation. If I have say, a wand of Fireballs and I am looking for it, and I can't find it. And I scream out "Dammit! Give me my wand!"... that's my turn. I just lost my turn in combat to do it. Then the kender burns their turn getting out the wand and tossing it to me. Then I burn another turn picking it up before I can use it.

Yes, I've seen this exact thing happen by the way.

The Kender's "Harmless" Kleptomania just cost the party a vital 3 rounds worth of action in combat, probably cost the wizard the perfect opportunity to drop that Fireball as the moment is past, enemies scattered, mixing up in melee with your guys, etc.

It just caused real harm to the game.

[Vertharrad]

And this people is what a Kender is - a nose blowing waste of space. Any usefulness of theirs is purely by chance. Oh they are Kleptos of the worst sort since they don't understand keep your hands to yourself it's not yours.

By the way that 2 or 3 rounds wasted? The enemy got their **** together and bum-rushed your thin front line cutting through your melee support to slaughter you all and cause a TPK...how do you like Kender now??? This very scenario could play out many times if you play with someone playing a Kender true to form.

The one game where we played with a Kender...it was sorted out before the game that he would not be taking anything vital from players(so in reality he wasn't playing a Kender). He did do the annoying curiosity, just lucky for us we didn't see any TPK's because of the Kender. Still doesn't mean I don't want to hear they've been wiped out.

Oh by the way the King-Priest was an a-hole who oppressed, murdered, and destroyed whole societies for the one true religion...he proclaimed arcane casters as evil(all of them). And he turned the Solomnic idiots into homicidal oppressive zealots. The ones so worried about honor sullied their own honor because they aren't allowed to think for themselves. In our game my character hated the knights more than the annoying klepto, at least they didn't try to tell him what he could or couldn't do. I would rather play with a paladin at least they know when you have to do what needs to be done, they don't let honor keep them from doing what must be done.

[Hyena]

I wonder, if cutting kender's hands for stealing will work in the long run for the whole race?

[ShurikVch]

On a related note, I bet the Explosive Runes market is booming.:smallwink: Pun not intended. And Bags of Devouring too! :smallbiggrin:

[hagnat]

i played as a kender once
it was one of the most funniest characters i ever played with

sadly, my friends didnt like him as much as i did :/

[Coidzor]

I wonder, if cutting kender's hands for stealing will work in the long run for the whole race?

No, then they'd just start stealing hands.


So what happens if you phrase a request to a Kender to not steal your stuff in a way that they could theoretically understand? Something like, "If you find something that was placed in its current location by me, could you please leave it there?"

Well, 1. the kender wouldn't have the capacity to understand it. 2. It wouldn't do any good if they did. They're compulsive thieves and liars. Compulsive. They literally cannot help themselves, which is why you're not supposed to sympathize with those who ostracize/eat them.

[Vedhin]

And Bags of Devouring too! :smallbiggrin:

They have 1001 uses! Kender trap is but number 583!

[Lord Haart]

Well, 1. the kender wouldn't have the capacity to understand it. 2. It wouldn't do any good if they did. They're compulsive thieves and liars. Compulsive. They literally cannot help themselves, which is why you're not supposed to sympathize with those who ostracize/eat them.
Well, mosquitoes are compulsive bloodsuckers (and females on the way, while we're on it). They cannot help themselves and they definitely don't have a capacity to understand whatever we want them to understand. They have to suck blood for procreation. And my favorite morality question is about where exactly lies the line between mosquitoes, fleas, meat cows, australian rabbits, terrorists, criminals-sentenced-to-the-death, UNBORN CHILDREN™, kittens, catgirls, street dogs, business rivals, hated family elders that steal cash and are long overdue to die, random people on the streets and this guy with bad breath.

[ArqArturo]

Just bring a few Jerren into Kenderhome. Although, it might lower the property value.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Just bring a few Jerren into Kenderhome. Although, it might lower the property value.

Or would it raise it, by virtue of there being less kender-folk?

[Ravens_cry]

No, then they'd just start stealing hands.

On the plus side, they will be a lot funnier; a real bunch of cut-ups
:smallamused:

[ArqArturo]

Or would it raise it, by virtue of there being less kender-folk?

Well, heads on spikes and altars to bloody gods are not really for the neighbors.

[Coidzor]

On the plus side, they will be a lot funnier; a real bunch of cut-ups
:smallamused:

Secret origin of mongrelfolk in Dragonlance.

[nedz]

I wonder, if cutting kender's hands for stealing will work in the long run for the whole race?No, then they'd just start stealing hands.

No no, it's hooks they'll be after — more shiny.

[Agent 451]

No no, it's hooks they'll be after — more shiny.

Makes perfect sense, they're all just a pack of damned jackdaws with even more annoying vocalizations.

[Ringadon]

From his reactions it seems that Vertharrad's brother was killed by a Kender in front of him.

The invective aimed towards Kender has always baffled me as well. Can handling be annoying? Absolutely. Does it add interesting flavor and role play to a group? Equally yes. It really boils down to a question of values and group comp.

I have never played in a group wherein I was not friends with the other players, and while characters might have been outright hateful towards each other it was simply role play and everyone could have a good chuckle at it. When I played a dragonlance game with a Kender (played by my friend Richard which was equally funny given he's pretty uptight most of the time) Bilkins got on the characters nerves all the time. He'd vanish wands, scrolls, etc. hell we had to run away from a couple of fights because our wizard couldn't do wand zapping, but this added to the comedy of the situation.

I guess our group just valued the novelty of the story as opposed to everything being standard. If for you status quo is god, then Kender, who by their very nature disrupt the status quo, will be evil, vile, wretched creatures that deserve to die. If on the other hand things get too serious around your table from time to time, a well played Kender can inject some much needed lightheartedness to the experience.

I think that lightheartedness is really what Kender represent more than anything else, they are the opposite of srsbsns.

[Coidzor]

Does it add interesting flavor and role play to a group? Equally yes.

That's where you'll find disagreement. It doesn't automatically make things more interesting or add valuable roleplaying to the game.


I think that lightheartedness is really what Kender represent more than anything else, they are the opposite of srsbsns.

They inherently limit the kinds of stories you can tell simply by existing, yes. I prefer the option to get serious as opposed to ruling it out entirely based upon one player's choice of race.

[Ravens_cry]

You know how annoying it can be when a goofy little sidekick gets attached to an otherwise serious story as 'comic relief'. It can go well, but all too often, you just want to strangle the little thing.
Now imagine that played by someone with only an amateurs grasp of comic timing and wit, to all appearances encouraged by the rules to act disruptive and annoying to both the players, both PC and DM alike.
Yeah, I don't see that going well very often.
It can, but it all too likely won't.

[ArcturusV]

I think that's an unfair spin on things. That and I think it's also somewhat unfair to call something "lighthearted" when it was "We lost potentially critical encounters/characters died because the Kender stole someone's scroll of Holy Word" or the like.

I mean... it seems odd that your framing up the situation of "If you don't like Kenders it's because you're playing for something other than story"... when the actions of Kenders are disruptive to the narrative itself more than anything. I mean if I'm playing in a game that has no real depth of story. Just... there's a dungeon, go kill the kobolds inside it, etc. The kender goofing around, making us run like cowards, etc, doesn't really have any impact other than making the dungeon take longer. We can laugh, snicker, and get back to the Kobolds later after sorting out the mishap because they're just waiting there to be cleared out on the dungeon crawl.

... but if I'm playing a game with a heavier amount of plot, then it comes disruptive. Instead of "Oh crap, that was funny. Now sort this out and lets go back and kill those guys" it turns into something like:

"... Tahkisis take you blasted kender! Because of your stupid behavior and lack of discipline Baron VonBadguy, Fallen Knight and Scourge of Solamnia got away because my wand of magic missiles was stolen and he escaped! We could have ended his evil right here but nooooooo... you had to steal valuable tools from people who were going to need them at a moment's notice."

... and if a major enemy gets away JUST because your Kender stole from you? ... most players I know would be pissed. I mean they get ticked, but can accept something like he used a ring to Teleport away, or had some contingent invisibility spell and snuck away, or even that he just summoned up a wall of mooks to slow us down while he ran off. But your own party setting up the villain to escape and menace you again? That's the sort of thing PvPing tends to be born of.

Even on the less drastic level.... groups don't want their story derailed by Kender Shenanigans. You know their quest to rescue the princess is derailed because the Kender tried to swipe a jewel from the king's throne room while you were getting your mission briefing and you're thrown in the dungeon instead. Or leaving a trail of people behind you that you have to avoid because the Kender stole from them and they don't want you around in general. Or having the Kender steal some plot critical item while the party is busy and just fail to mention it (Because they see no real value other than it's shiny and Kenders are horders typically), and your party stumbles on lacking clues they need not knowing the Kender has it.

It's just a lot of destructive campaign behavior. And the more I care about the plot, the more I want to accomplish the adventure and see the result of my heroic deeds (Or successful glorious bastard evil deeds), the more I resent having "That Guy" in the party.

And really that's what it ends to be. If they weren't a Kender... if it was just some human rogue who stole from characters when they were sleeping, stole from NPCs you wanted to be allied to and pissed them off, etc, and just kinda shrugged and said "Oh, that's just who I am, I can't help it"... most groups I've seen would punch that guy int he arm and tell him to stop it. Or roll up a different character.

Somehow Kenders get this Armor though where people defend behavior that they generally wouldn't accept from anyone else. Would you really want to adventure with an elvish wizard who goes around fireballing peasant cottages just for laughs and pyromania? The human rogue who steals compulsively, even from his allies? The half-orc barbarian who makes a disgusting habit of sexually assaulting and defiling the corpses of his enemies? Nah. Not in groups I saw unless you were going for the "Evil" campaign pretty hard.

[Ringadon]

I've actually played in groups that contained both of the types you've described, but I do agree that I have perhaps misframed my argument. People seem to be anti Kender because they don't like the direction that Kender can often take the stories. Perhaps I'm just spoiled by having a fantastic group of DMs who roll with the punches so to speak but when Bilkins snafued our plan, and the DM's plan, everyone adapted and things just went on from there. Similar to how one bad roll, or in the DM's hands too many good rolls, can completely change expected outcomes of things Kenders disrupt things.

I perhaps should also mention that corporately the group that had Bilkins the Kender in it, which sadly I have moved away from, discussed our characters motivations and design ahead of time to avoid any party breaking interactions, and that we were all actors....

[Ravens_cry]

Yeah, but that's 'luck', chance. Sure, it sucks, but you can't really do anything about it, unless you are or have the kind of DM who fudges rolls.
It's quite another thing when it's another player, taking up space and acting like a general faecal matter disrupter.
Let's put it this way. If the wind knocks over a tree and it lands on your car, it sucks, it may even be devastating, but it's a bit silly to take it personally.
It's quite another if your neighbour cuts down the tree, and it lands on your car.
On purpose.
One is life's happenchance, and the other is malice aforethought.
Hyperbole I admit, but still valid nonetheless.

[Vertharrad]

From his reactions it seems that Vertharrad's brother was killed by a Kender in front of him.

The invective aimed towards Kender has always baffled me as well. Can handling be annoying? Absolutely. Does it add interesting flavor and role play to a group? Equally yes. It really boils down to a question of values and group comp.

I have never played in a group wherein I was not friends with the other players, and while characters might have been outright hateful towards each other it was simply role play and everyone could have a good chuckle at it. When I played a dragonlance game with a Kender (played by my friend Richard which was equally funny given he's pretty uptight most of the time) Bilkins got on the characters nerves all the time. He'd vanish wands, scrolls, etc. hell we had to run away from a couple of fights because our wizard couldn't do wand zapping, but this added to the comedy of the situation.

I guess our group just valued the novelty of the story as opposed to everything being standard. If for you status quo is god, then Kender, who by their very nature disrupt the status quo, will be evil, vile, wretched creatures that deserve to die. If on the other hand things get too serious around your table from time to time, a well played Kender can inject some much needed lightheartedness to the experience.

I think that lightheartedness is really what Kender represent more than anything else, they are the opposite of srsbsns.

At that point it would be on, usually I give people chances we all make mistakes, but Kender don't learn...as was mentioned bad luck I can take purposefully f*****g s**t up repeatedly I won't tolerate. My groups make our own lightheartedness if we need mister TPK comic joke then theres a problem. And by the way if a Kender did kill my brother in front of me it would spell the end of the race...I can be especially vindictive and noone kills a family member in front of me and expects their line to continue. As they say...play with the bull be prepared to get the horns.

[CRtwenty]

I'll make it simple.

This is a picture of an adventuring party.
http://tallmadgebranch.akronlibrary.org/files/2012/08/scooby.jpg

This is a Kender.
http://marabalagtas.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/scrappy-doo.jpg?w=152&h=250

[tzar1990]

IMO, the issue with Kender is that so many of their racial traits seem, at first (and second, and third) glance to allow or even encourage various annoying, "That Guy"-esque shenanigans. For a player who gets off on annoying others, Kender is the go-ahead card: you're not being a ****! You're roll-playing.

I have seen kender done well, but only a few times. Being acceptable came down to a few, non obvious interpretations of their natural traits:

1. The "kleptomania", the biggest, most obvious red flag in the race, isn't about stealing. A kender doesn't take things because they're valuable, or because they're useful - he takes them because they catch his attention, are sitting unattended, and he's not familiar with them. He will NOT steal the party member's sword - swords are common and uninteresting. He might take the wizard's spellbook once - and only once - if it's left out, but he'll give it back when asked, and never touch it again. He has no interest in wands, aside from figuring out how they work (read - learning the UMD skill). Remember, for all the "people don't hate Kender" stated in the books, when Tas stole something important to the party's plans, Tanis loudly declared that "this friendship ends here!", and fully intended to give Tas the boot. He only changed his mind BECAUSE Tas revealed he knew what the object was, and he knew that the party's plan would have just gotten Tanis pointlessly killed.

For things you're going to steal, make them simple (cost < 1 gp) trinkets or whatever, or even better, ask the DM to give some of the treasure in gems, art objects and so on (as the DMG recommends), so that you can have those while the other players get the "boring" gold pieces. Even consider trading your good stuff for other player's cool, but not strictly as good stuff - yeah, the Cloak of Resistance +2 might be more useful, but Jimmy's Hat of Disguise is more interesting.

2. Annoying your enemies is cool - annoying your friends isn't. Kender might be childish, but they're only going to be malicious to people trying to kill them. Keep it limited to good-natured teasing, like you'd see with friends, in the party. Even among enemies, you're smart enough not to provoke a pointless fight - you're more interested in getting enemies to do something stupid and thoughtless than in causing random violence. Any time you cause an incident, have a goal that benefits the party in mind.

3. Fearless doesn't mean stupid - you can still prefer not-pain to pain, and have desires in the future you'd like to achieve. A kender's response to something dangerous is going to be investigation rather than flight, but they're not gonna cut themselves to see how it feels, or willingly climb down a dragon's throat to check out the stomache. Your response to serious threats is to try to stay alive - but always be cheerful and hopeful. Even in the face of death, you keep an eye out for an opening to escape, and you don't give up or surrender.

TL;DR, as a PC, you have a duty stemming from the implicit social contract of the game to be helpful, and not be a **** to your fellow players.

[Vertharrad]

IMO, the issue with Kender is that so many of their racial traits seem, at first (and second, and third) glance to allow or even encourage various annoying, "That Guy"-esque shenanigans. For a player who gets off on annoying others, Kender is the go-ahead card: you're not being a ****! You're roll-playing.

I have seen kender done well, but only a few times. Being acceptable came down to a few, non obvious interpretations of their natural traits:

1. The "kleptomania", the biggest, most obvious red flag in the race, isn't about stealing. A kender doesn't take things because they're valuable, or because they're useful - he takes them because they catch his attention, are sitting unattended, and he's not familiar with them. He will NOT steal the party member's sword - swords are common and uninteresting. He might take the wizard's spellbook once - and only once - if it's left out, but he'll give it back when asked, and never touch it again. He has no interest in wands, aside from figuring out how they work (read - learning the UMD skill). Remember, for all the "people don't hate Kender" stated in the books, when Tas stole something important to the party's plans, Tanis loudly declared that "this friendship ends here!", and fully intended to give Tas the boot. He only changed his mind BECAUSE Tas revealed he knew what the object was, and he knew that the party's plan would have just gotten Tanis pointlessly killed.

For things you're going to steal, make them simple (cost < 1 gp) trinkets or whatever, or even better, ask the DM to give some of the treasure in gems, art objects and so on (as the DMG recommends), so that you can have those while the other players get the "boring" gold pieces. Even consider trading your good stuff for other player's cool, but not strictly as good stuff - yeah, the Cloak of Resistance +2 might be more useful, but Jimmy's Hat of Disguise is more interesting.

2. Annoying your enemies is cool - annoying your friends isn't. Kender might be childish, but they're only going to be malicious to people trying to kill them. Keep it limited to good-natured teasing, like you'd see with friends, in the party. Even among enemies, you're smart enough not to provoke a pointless fight - you're more interested in getting enemies to do something stupid and thoughtless than in causing random violence. Any time you cause an incident, have a goal that benefits the party in mind.

3. Fearless doesn't mean stupid - you can still prefer not-pain to pain, and have desires in the future you'd like to achieve. A kender's response to something dangerous is going to be investigation rather than flight, but they're not gonna cut themselves to see how it feels, or willingly climb down a dragon's throat to check out the stomache. Your response to serious threats is to try to stay alive - but always be cheerful and hopeful. Even in the face of death, you keep an eye out for an opening to escape, and you don't give up or surrender.

TL;DR, as a PC, you have a duty stemming from the implicit social contract of the game to be helpful, and not be a **** to your fellow players.

1) Does the law care why you took off with something that isn't yours? Or the fact that you did? Yeah thats what I thought...stealing by any other name is still stealing no matter why you did it. Now then the party is all smiles when you klepto the enemy, but that isn't the only case KENDER have NO concept of PROPERTY! They are plot armored klepto's.

2) IDK about this one so Cool...

3) Fearless leads to reckless leads to poking the dragon or awaking the dragon(which is just as bad). Fear lets us know what danger is, and when the only thing to fear a Kender is a death knight adventuring parties beware. It took a advanced Great Red Wyrm to scare some of them straight...this is the wrong answer I'm sure even Darwin would agree. So if they have common sense why are they not afraid of more things???

[Psyren]

Does it add interesting flavor and role play to a group? Equally yes.

No, it's not equal at all. They add disproportionately more headache than interesting roleplay, unless you don't play them like Kender.

[Big Fau]

No, it's not equal at all. They add disproportionately more headache than interesting roleplay, unless you don't play them like Kender.

Yeah, I'd be livid if another party member stole an item from me (gold I can care less about since my parties usually spot one another if someone is short on gp for an item). I've seen players use the Kender's kleptomania as an excuse to steal like a Chaotic Stupid Rogue would, with no regard to the DM's stance on repercussions, and then nearly throw a tantrum when the DM put his foot down.

The race's flavor and intended disposition lends itself to disrupting games, not augmenting them.

[tzar1990]

1) Does the law care why you took off with something that isn't yours? Or the fact that you did? Yeah thats what I thought...stealing by any other name is still stealing no matter why you did it. Now then the party is all smiles when you klepto the enemy, but that isn't the only case KENDER have NO concept of PROPERTY! They are plot armored klepto's.

2) IDK about this one so Cool...

3) Fearless leads to reckless leads to poking the dragon or awaking the dragon(which is just as bad). Fear lets us know what danger is, and when the only thing to fear a Kender is a death knight adventuring parties beware. It took a advanced Great Red Wyrm to scare some of them straight...this is the wrong answer I'm sure even Darwin would agree. So if they have common sense why are they not afraid of more things???

For 1), It's worth remembering that a good kender player is rarely going to steal anything that anyone actually cares about - remember, you only take things that are both unattended, interesting (which does NOT equal valuable - colorful marbles, pretty feathers, or a bit of rope someone wove into a braid are interesting, thile a +1 Amulet of Barkskin or a magic sword are not), and unimportant.

They're the equivalent of the roommate who eats food you leave lying around, but is totally cool with you eating their food too - annoying, yeah, but you put up with it, especially when they trade their fancy pork roast for some candy bar you grabbed in chinatown since "they'd never tried that before!"

If it's really an issue, have a player come up with the idea of 'Kender Tax' - that is, when he goes into a store, he drops a few gp on the counter, even if he's not buying nothing, since he recognizes he may well pick something up an forget to put something down.


As for 3), you seem to be wrongly combining fear as an emotional response with fear as aversion to bad stuff. A kender doesn't feel terror in the face of death - his palms don't start sweating, he doesn't hyperventilate, his legs don't start moving on their own - but he's still capable of saying "well, this sucks! I should avoid it!". He's still motivated to not get himself killed, because he dislikes pain, and because he has goals and motivations that he can't achieve if he gets himself eaten.

It's worth noting that Kender aren't the only common entities in D&D who don't feel fear - Paladins don't either! But no one accuses paladins of being irrational, or being chaotic stupid idiots who'd poke dragons with a stick. Likewise, kender may not feel fear, but they do understand consequences - and they're smart enough to know that poking a dragon with a stick results in it waking up and killing you.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not saying that kender are always A-OK - they give that guy a go-ahead to be a dickhole, and they lend themselves to chaotic stupid gameplay. I'm just saying that, if done well, they can be decent characters without losing their essential "kender-ness"

[ArqArturo]

It's worth noting that Kender aren't the only common entities in D&D who don't feel fear - Paladins don't either! But no one accuses paladins of being irrational, or being chaotic stupid idiots who'd poke dragons with a stick. Likewise, kender may not feel fear, but they do understand consequences - and they're smart enough to know that poking a dragon with a stick results in it waking up and killing you.

Well, Paladins are being accused of being stick-up SOBs because some players use them as a reason to act like ***** in the game.

[TuggyNE]

But no one accuses paladins of being irrational, or being chaotic stupid idiots who'd poke dragons with a stick. Likewise, kender may not feel fear, but they do understand consequences - and they're smart enough to know that poking a dragon with a stick results in it waking up and killing you.

Some actually do accuse them of this, but since Paladins are LG, have a code of conduct that can reasonably be used to rein in certain excesses of stupidity, and generally have better-than-average Wis, it's not nearly so bad.

[nedz]

Well, Paladins are being accused of being stick-up SOBs because some players use them as a reason to act like ***** in the game.

Yes exactly.
Kender are no worse than Paladins.
Both can be more annoying than Jar Jar in the wrong hands, but played well both can be interesting.

[ArqArturo]

Yes exactly.
Kender are no worse than Paladins.
Both can be more annoying than Jar Jar in the wrong hands, but played well both can be interesting.

Now, what about both? :smalleek:.

Heck, even Chaotic Neutral is used as an excuse for some players to be borderline evil, and when confronted they go "I'm not Evil, I'm Chaotic Neutral!".

[Brookshw]

Now, what about both? :smalleek:.

Heck, even Chaotic Neutral is used as an excuse for some players to be borderline evil, and when confronted they go "I'm not Evil, I'm Chaotic Neutral!".

Why am I now picturing Elan's brief stint at wanting to be a wizard?

Edit: +1 to I dislike the campaign setting due to lack of player agency.

[ArqArturo]

Why am I now picturing Elan's brief stint at wanting to be a wizard?

Edit: +1 to I dislike the campaign setting due to lack of player agency.

I dislike DL as a campaign setting because the Knights of Solamnia are one step closer to being Knights of Neraka.

[One Step Two]

Like I mentioned in my earlier post. A good kender player should be a responsible player. Anyone who uses playing a Kender as an excuse to be an jerk, is just being a jerk. The same as every other Chaotic Neutral nutter, and paladin who demands that they have the rights to tell the party what to do.

Interestingly, the primary sources on Kender, namely the Dragonlance Campaign setting has this to say in regards to the usual Kender behaviours, which also seems to be a very overlooked aspect of their race. Their Loyalty.



Once kender form friendships, their capacity for loyalty is unrivaled... Kender do not feel fear for themselves, but they can feel fear for their friends, and this has often led to the tempering of Kender impulses.

A good kender player will remember this as being important, because a kender's love for life includes their companions, and they're usualy smart enough to remember that some folk just aren't has hardy as them, nor as good as getting out of strife.

This combined with a direct peice of advice coming straight from the expansion splatbook Races of Ansalon.



Kender as Characters
The best way to play a kender character is to reign in some of the more overbearing kender personality traits... Be friendly without talking endlessly, be fearless but not foolhardy, be curious but smart. If you are a true kender, don't always attempt to steal valuable items. Keepin mind that to a kender a shiny river stone is just as enticing as a diamond.
Play against sterotype... Not all kender are like Tasselhof Burrfoot. Nightshade Pricklypear is an exellent example of a kender from the novels who is not good at handling, and instead has the interesting ability to communicate with the dead. Try something different, and look for a unique niche for your kender character.

The source material recognises the shortcomings of the kender race, and asks the player to both remember the good qualities, and asks them to be unique. This is something want-to-be kender players should remember.

[nedz]

Now, what about both? :smalleek:.

What ?
A Kender Paladin !
Is that even possible ?
I mean, how would that work ?

[ArcturusV]

For about .2 seconds. Theft being dishonorable and resulting in a fall?

[Hamste]

What ?
A Kender Paladin !
Is that even possible ?
I mean, how would that work ?

In one of the dragon lance novels a half-kender almost got into the knighthood. Also there are kender clerics before the godking started killing everything so they can make it in a religion

[Psyren]

I love that the book says the best way to play a Kender is to be less Kender (which is what the advice here boils down to anyway.)

The core book's advice is very vague ("often tempering") while you basically have to buy a second book to get the actually helpful specific advice of non-valuable items being just as interesting to them and not taking stupid risks just because of your fear immunity.

[nedz]

I love that the book says the best way to play a Kender is to be less Kender (which is what the advice here boils down to anyway.)

But this is often the case with strong characters ( RP strong not CharOP strong ); Less is more. Hell, I even had to do this with my Dwarf Ranger who had plenty of Captain Manwaring moments. These things are fun at first, but can get old with overuse. It's down to the player, not the race/class.

[Yukitsu]

I've never read anything that describes what a dwarf does under a typical situation beyond drinking when off duty, and certainly nothing that would be construed as deliberately disruptive.

[ArcturusV]

Mostly headbutting poncy elves in the nuts. That's about it for their disruptive racial behavior.

Edit: oh, and sometimes the fact that they freak out about flying or boating. Which can be annoying.

[Ravens_cry]

Mostly headbutting poncy elves in the nuts. That's about it for their disruptive racial behavior.

Pah, that's a myth!
Elves don't have nuts. They are actually a single gender race (all female) that occasionally buds.

[Coidzor]

Mostly headbutting poncy elves in the nuts. That's about it for their disruptive racial behavior.

Edit: oh, and sometimes the fact that they freak out about flying or boating. Which can be annoying.

And even then you have to go off RAW for height, as elves are almost as short as Dwarves as I recall.

More with the water and hydrophobia than flying, IIRC. Granted, they might just have a species-wide version of rabies...


Pah, that's a myth!
Elves don't have nuts. They are actually a single gender race (all female) that occasionally buds.

Well, hermaphrodites, what with the tiny... you know....

[Ravens_cry]

Well, hermaphrodites, what with the tiny... you know....
Breasts? Yeah, elves are pretty flat chested without magical implants. Which are mandatory. Imagine what gravity would do otherwise after even a hundred years.

[Bhaakon]

Breasts? Yeah, elves are pretty flat chested without magical implants. Which are mandatory. Imagine what gravity would do otherwise after even a hundred years.

That's why drow have that levitate SLA.

[Ravens_cry]

That's why drow have that levitate SLA.
This. Explains. Everything.:smalleek:

[Psyren]

And even then you have to go off RAW for height, as elves are almost as short as Dwarves as I recall.

On average they're half a foot taller, though still shorter than humans. Drow get down to dwarf sizes though IIRC.

In PF however Elves are generally taller than humans.

[Ravens_cry]

In PF however Elves are generally taller than humans.
They more resemble Tolkien elves that way.

[Morithias]

They more resemble Tolkien elves that way.

I prefer the Dragon Commander elves. They're way more likeable.

[ArqArturo]

For about .2 seconds. Theft being dishonorable and resulting in a fall?

Ok, then. Kender Paladin of Freedom?.

[ArcturusV]

Isn't Paladin of Freedom kind of an Autofall anyway? I mean you have a class that is supposed to be the ideal champion of chaos... who follows a rigid code? Been a while that I looked over it, but I remembered both of the Chaotic Paladins were basically set up to fall instantly.

[Ravens_cry]

Isn't Paladin of Freedom kind of an Autofall anyway? I mean you have a class that is supposed to be the ideal champion of chaos... who follows a rigid code? Been a while that I looked over it, but I remembered both of the Chaotic Paladins were basically set up to fall instantly.
No, champion of GOOD and Chaos. Which means you get a little more leeway on the Chaos part, though it is still a little silly.
But woe, woe is the poor Paladin of Slaughter. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) If you think Vanilla Paladins get rather strangled by their code . . . Basically, puppy punting, baby eating evil, all the time, every time.

[One Step Two]

Paladin of Freedom fits a Kender like a glove. With their racial aptitude for breaking into and out of places, a courageous little Hero who frees slaves and taunts Tyrants.

Paladins are actually considered Rare in Krynn, as there are no Orders of Paladins, and are often champions chosen by a specific god, so I think that the class variants in UA is more appropriate for Dragonlance campaigns in general.

[Morithias]

Paladin of Freedom fits a Kender like a glove. With their racial aptitude for breaking into and out of places, a courageous little Hero who frees slaves and taunts Tyrants.

Paladins are actually considered Rare in Krynn, as there are no Orders of Paladins, and are often champions chosen by a specific god, so I think that the class variants in UA is more appropriate for Dragonlance campaigns in general.

Wait isn't the bloody good-aligned god in dragonlance named "PALADINe"? How the hell are paladins rare?

[Bhaakon]

Wait isn't the bloody good-aligned god in dragonlance named "PALADINe"? How the hell are paladins rare?

He fell, though, and now he's just an elf.

[One Step Two]

The Paladin class isn't even mentioned in the core Dragonlance Book as being appropriate, because the Setting has different orders of Knights. For your Lawful good needs, there are Knights Solamnia, namely the Knights of the Rose, Knights of the Crown, and Knights of the Sword.

For Evil characters, there are Knights of Neraka which are The Knights of the Lily, the Knights of the Thorn, and Knights of the Skull.

Edit: Whoops, doubled my knightly orders.

[ArcturusV]

Listed Lily twice. Seems odd.

But Solamnic Knights aren't really "Paladins". Except maybe the clerics in their order. I'm pretty sure the High Clerist would always be a pretty good approximation of a higher level Paladin.

But Sturm was badass, so I can forgive the lack of being a Paladin.

[Vertharrad]

There has been only one Paladin on Kryyn in it's entire history...Huma. Otherwise the DM can allow Paladin characters and I believe is cautioned to make it the odd Paladin character every once in a blue moon. the Knights fill a role similar to Pladins.

As for spellcasting Kender...for a race that is noted for it's entire lack of attention span that makes our ADHD people seem more like archmages...Just No. I don't see a Kender having the attention span to finish any training that goes beyond basics. And would the gods be foolish enough to entrust them with magic??? There goes Krynn...it's funny when a book tells a player to play a race very not like that race. Why not just list them under monster and don't give them any playable as character options???

And as for teaching Kender how to not be a klepto...Malystrix helped us there by scaring some fear into them. That helps a lot.

[Psyren]

And as for teaching Kender how to not be a klepto...Malystrix helped us there by scaring some fear into them. That helps a lot.

I'm willing to bet there was no other chromatic dragon before or since that was so loudly cheered on :smalltongue:

[Perseus]

I love threads like this (specially the first page) when I just read the D&D Next playtest packet and Kender are a core race for now.

[Psyren]

I love threads like this (specially the first page) when I just read the D&D Next playtest packet and Kender are a core race for now.

*facepalm*
*facedesk*
*facewall*

Please tell me you're joking...

[Hyena]

I love threads like this (specially the first page) when I just read the D&D Next playtest packet and Kender are a core race for now.
Prepare yourselves, brothers and sisters. Gods have turned their backs on us, and now the dark age is coming.

[ArqArturo]

I love threads like this (specially the first page) when I just read the D&D Next playtest packet and Kender are a core race for now.

So are the Warforged, and the 4e dragonborn. Should be interesting.

[some guy]

Gods have mercy on us all.

I guess "Known to exist only on the world of Krynn—the DRAGONLANCE setting" is a bit of a safeguard, and they're listed under unusual races, but what was WotC thinking?

[Lord Raziere]

I think they are just going by popularity.

problem is, I think they counting NEGATIVE popularity. or maybe their research consisted of "quick whats the most popular and mentioned races that aren't currently core?" and they look those up without context.

or maybe your just the vocal minority about kender and some poll actually revealed they're quite popular, you never know. sure you may think something so hated shouldn't be popular at all, but you've probably only talking to other playgrounders about kender, and playgrounder culture has kender hate embedded in it.

[Clistenes]

Prepare yourselves, brothers and sisters. Gods have turned their backs on us, and now the dark age is coming.

It seems that they want to make 5th edition a worse failure than 4th edition ever was...

WotC's guy I: Well, we really messed it with 4th edition. We expected to attract millions of new players, but we have divided the fanbase instead, and more than half are still playing 3.5 ed.

WotC's guy II: Worse than that, Paizo keeps publishing compatible material, so there is no hope that 3.5 ed will die out due to lack of support for now.

WotC's guy I: We have to do something...we need...a new edition!

WotC's guy II: But...aren't we at risk of further dividing our fanbase?

WotC's guy I: We need something that will attract all players back to our side.

WotC's guy II: Something they couldn't resist...

WotC's guy I: Something everybody will want...

WotC's guy II: I know! KENDERS!

WotC's guy I: KENDERS!! YES!!

WotC's guy II: Everybody loves kenders! The sourcebook says so, so it must be true!

WotC's guy I: Yes! They won't be able to resist it! They all will buy our products to play with the kenders!

WotC's guy II: And gnomes! plenty of prankster gnomes!

WotC's guy I: We are going to be filthy rich!

[Morithias]

Suddenly I'm interested in D&D Next.

[ArqArturo]

Well, remember that WoTC has Hasbro as their overlord, they have to meet a quota of stuff sold on certain products, or they have to drop that product. Remember D20 Modern?.

[Psyren]

Forum hits for Kender: Over 9000

"People must love them!"

[Perseus]

The Kender race is pretty cool, they pick up random stuff while in town so you can look in your backpack for a certain itembto see if you have it... Or something like that.

So they fixed the stealing from your own party and stealing from random people and having them come and try to kill you...

[ArqArturo]

The Kender race is pretty cool, they pick up random stuff while in town so you can look in your backpack for a certain itembto see if you have it... Or something like that.

So they fixed the stealing from your own party and stealing from random people and having them come and try to kill you...

ADVENTURE!.

[Vertharrad]

The Kender race is pretty cool, they pick up random stuff while in town so you can look in your backpack for a certain itembto see if you have it... Or something like that.

So they fixed the stealing from your own party and stealing from random people and having them come and try to kill you...

Actually this is one of the contention points...that makes me want to destroy them. Hearts andd minds people...not torches and pitchforks. My character would love to be able to go into town and get a inn room without being lynched, jailed, or just plain killed because of the pint-sized klepto.

The best option is to keep them out of the game, halflings are good enough. Get rid of the robots, and dragonborn(1/2 dragons are good enough); I really don't want to touch 5e at this point and the only way I'd change my mind is if my group decides to give it a try(the big guy hasn't said it's snowing yet).

[Brookshw]

I love threads like this (specially the first page) when I just read the D&D Next playtest packet and Kender are a core race for now.

Welp,....looks like gnomes and kobolds have company on my banned races list.

[Kuulvheysoon]

On average they're half a foot taller, though still shorter than humans. Drow get down to dwarf sizes though IIRC.

In PF however Elves are generally taller than humans.


They more resemble Tolkien elves that way.

IIRC, Faerunian elves are also taller.

[Coidzor]

I love threads like this (specially the first page) when I just read the D&D Next playtest packet and Kender are a core race for now.

I'd say an angry letter writing campaign would be in order, but we all know they wouldn't read them or care.

[hymer]

Writing an angry letter is it own reward. At least it ought to be, for how much good angry letters usually do, compared to the more analytical ones.

[nedz]

I'd say an angry letter writing campaign would be in order, but we all know they wouldn't read them or care.

It's a playtest packet — they want feedback. They have an official form and everything. We could all reply and tell them how much we love our Kender.

[The Glyphstone]

It's a playtest packet — they want feedback. They have an official form and everything. We could all reply and tell them how much we love our Kender.

I'm not sure if reverse psychology works on corporations.

[Psyren]

I'm not sure if reverse psychology works on corporations.

What if we all use blue ink?

[Vertharrad]

It's a playtest packet — they want feedback. They have an official form and everything. We could all reply and tell them how much we love our Kender.

Yes I love Kender...I love to dip them in lava, flowing hot lava.

I'm sorry...I just couldn't help myself.

[Thunderfist12]

Kender are amazing when cooked medium-rare on a kerosene grill, roasted on a spit, or cooked rotisserie style (dressed with garlic, with a side of clam chowder).:smallbiggrin:

[ArqArturo]

Kender are great hors d'oeuvre.

[Thunderfist12]

I love my kender deep-fried and covered in chocolate.:smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

Whereas I love you guys :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Snowbluff]

I just found out that there is a kender colony in the campaign I am playing a necropolitan in. They look so adorable when they sleep.

[ArqArturo]

I just found out that there is a kender colony in the campaign I am playing a necropolitan in. They look so adorable when they sleep.

:smalleek:

[Clistenes]

I just found out that there is a kender colony in the campaign I am playing a necropolitan in. They look so adorable when they sleep.

http://media.tumblr.com/919a1d140f2b0c8c63bda0fbcf42624a/tumblr_inline_mp04cvBlaO1qz4rgp.png

[TrollCapAmerica]

So are the Warforged, and the 4e dragonborn. Should be interesting.


Mark my words
Whichever race is played the most shall make it into 5th edition
You know what you must do

[Psyren]

Mark my words
Whichever race is played the most shall make it into 5th edition
You know what you must do

*watches in abject horror as gaming groups across the globe roll kender en masse*

[TrollCapAmerica]

*watches in abject horror as gaming groups across the globe roll kender en masse*

Oh I should note for the character to count they need to survive the session

[ArqArturo]

So, the new playable races in dnd next will be:

Humans
Drow
Kender
Draconians
Goblins
... Aaaand Elves. All fifty kinds of elves.

[Psyren]

So, the new playable races in dnd next will be:

Humans
Drow
Kender
Draconians
Goblins
... Aaaand Elves. All fifty kinds of elves.

Let's throw in Kobolds and call it a day

[Brookshw]

They omitted dwarves for lender? Offs.......

[Psyren]

There's three races we know will for sure end up in D&D and that's humans, elves and dwarves. Even Dragon Age caught on to that one.

[Coidzor]

Because Dwarves. Dwarves (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurDwarvesAreAllTheSame)never change. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2Pt-LnQ2po)

[ArqArturo]

Because Dwarves. Dwarves (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurDwarvesAreAllTheSame)never change. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2Pt-LnQ2po)

Well, in the Iron Kingdoms they have no beards. Work hazard.

[Scow2]

There's only one race of kleptomaniacs I find enjoyable, and that's a certain species of scavenging space cephalopods (http://home.comcast.net/~ccdesan/Freefall/Freefall_Backstory.html#Sam).

They omitted dwarves for lender? Offs.......No. Dwarves are the very first race listed, and they're pretty cool (As always). Unfortunately, they don't have all the little fiddly bonuses against monsters we love to hate.

[Asheram]

Kenders....

*sigh* F****** kenders....
I... Why, WotC? Why kenders?

I'll just go and write that angry letter now.

[One Step Two]

I feel resentment when people who instantly disdain Kender, I admit that this is because they have a great propensity for being improperly used/played.

That said, they do not belong outside of Krynn. Dragonlance had Kender in mind when it was designed, how people react to them and attitude towards them, and it's pecarious enough as it is in enough.

Making them a core race? No, just... no. These aren't beings that should be slapped into the middle of any other setting, because it will make whats bad about Kender and make it even worse.

[ArcturusV]

Dunno about even "Belongs in Dragonlance". I just mention it because I seem to recall the story was that originally they weren't going to have Halfamen of any sort in the game that spawned the original novel/setting. Except one of the players just begged over and over until they caved and let him play a halfaman. Which turned into Tasslehoff, and all his annoying quirks, etc, that the player used became Racial Flavor.

... it kind of shoots the "legitimacy" of a race in the foot when you think that they weren't added because the creators felt they had any value to the setting at all. In fact they didn't want to have them at all. But it was added only because someone was stubborn as a mule and refused to play anything else.

[Coidzor]

Dunno about even "Belongs in Dragonlance". I just mention it because I seem to recall the story was that originally they weren't going to have Halfamen of any sort in the game that spawned the original novel/setting. Except one of the players just begged over and over until they caved and let him play a halfaman. Which turned into Tasslehoff, and all his annoying quirks, etc, that the player used became Racial Flavor.

... it kind of shoots the "legitimacy" of a race in the foot when you think that they weren't added because the creators felt they had any value to the setting at all. In fact they didn't want to have them at all. But it was added only because someone was stubborn as a mule and refused to play anything else.

It's rather appropriate that a race of problem characters exists because of a problem player though, I suppose. Synergy or something. Full Circle, even.

[One Step Two]

That opinion is fair enough I suppose, and that fact might be completely true, but to me, having being introduced to Dragonlance, and Kender through an amazing GM, and great players, then having read the books afterwards, I can't help but see them as a great part of the setting. But then I love all things in the Dragonlance setting, it has wonderful lore like Faerun has, but not as much... polish, which makes it feel like something I can appreciate more. I hope that makes sense.

Despite what they originally intended, Kender are part of the setting/story as a whole, and there's no real way to remove them. I've seen alot of forum flak over Kender, and the way they are played, and I never deny any of it. The race is pre-disposed to be played like a kid with ADHD and a bag full of sugar and a waterskin full of red cordial, and that's not necessarily wrong, but it certainly isn't the right thing to do in the context of a well-rounded gaming group.

That's why I like to toss in my two copper concerning them. A well played Kender can be rewarding to a group, and enhance the story. It can take work, no denying that, but if people really love the race, not for the ability to steal well, or the disruptive antics, but because they love the idea of a race which seems to idealise the idiom "Hope Springs eternal" then I want to offer them the best advice I can, so they can be a credit to the game, instead of a liability.

[ArqArturo]

Dunno about even "Belongs in Dragonlance". I just mention it because I seem to recall the story was that originally they weren't going to have Halfamen of any sort in the game that spawned the original novel/setting. Except one of the players just begged over and over until they caved and let him play a halfaman. Which turned into Tasslehoff, and all his annoying quirks, etc, that the player used became Racial Flavor.

... it kind of shoots the "legitimacy" of a race in the foot when you think that they weren't added because the creators felt they had any value to the setting at all. In fact they didn't want to have them at all. But it was added only because someone was stubborn as a mule and refused to play anything else.

And that the player that played Raistlin always arrived late, thus Raistlin was a sickly character?.

[ArcturusV]

Never heard that one. Might make sense with how often he's taken out of action by some coughing fit of blood.

[Pickford]

johnbragg:

Which means that you purposely disregarded the fluff and only had non-valuable items pop up in your pockets. Basically, "cheating." Kender have no concept of private property, not "no concept of private property with a value of less than 1 gp". Parties that played with kender who weren't "cheating" like you were had to do stuff like make a random roll to see whether a given item was with its owner or with the kender. Which sucks butt when you're suddenly in a fight and the wizard's wand of lightning bolts is with the kender thief.

The books say "This is what a kender is." You crossed out the worst part, the parts everyone hates, and then ask why everyone hates kender.

From what I'm able to locate (having never played DragonLance) there's no racial trait regarding items popping up in the Kender's pockets. Is this a Sp, Su, or Ex ability, or are you just saying people handwave that they managed to steal something without actually making a slight of hand check to steal something from someone?

I would point out that from what I did manage to track down, the Kender apparently don't conceptually understand the value of money. This would seem to mean it is automatically out of character for a Kender to steal 'valuables'. As a consequence, doing so would be meta-gaming (and the DM ought to punish the player as a result).

Ravens_cry:

And some want to pick its pockets while wielding a cursed rod of wonder and playing 52 card pick up with a Deck of Many Things.

I opted to draw 16 cards on a lark, made it to #13 before my soul got sucked out to another dimension...which actually isn't that big a deal considering the rest of the party opted to rescue me functionally letting me get off scot free. :)

One_Step_Two:

Our Kender immediately shook hands, and stated, his Slight of Hand check. He looked over the new characters' equipment, and found a Feather Token Swan Boat,

Sleight of Hand doesn't let you frisk another player unbeknownst to them, it lets you take an item, but you'd actually have to know the item was there already.

On top of that, it's also a DC 20 and the subject gets a Spot check to see you. 18 dex (+4), 4 ranks Sleight of Hand, deft hands (+2), kender (+2) could actually get an item they saw 60% of the time. Given that Rangers have Spot as a class skill and likely have a higher wisdom there's a not unreasonable chance (~40%) that the Ranger would see what happened. Of course...everyone present would also get a Spot check to notice the interaction.

Oh, right and given that everyone in this setting would be familiar with Kender proclivities, the DC isn't 20...it's actually 30 to start with. Which makes it almost impossible (18 after modifiers) for said Kender to take anything. (All this is assuming 1st level characters, of course)

I think Kender might only be a problem if ones' DM starts cutting corners with the rules around skill checks. Still, if it got to be a problem, wouldn't the non-good characters start threatening said Kender with death next time they take anything? (i.e. Obsessively track their gear and kill the Kender if anything goes missing)

[One Step Two]

One_Step_Two:


Sleight of Hand doesn't let you frisk another player unbeknownst to them, it lets you take an item, but you'd actually have to know the item was there already.

On top of that, it's also a DC 20 and the subject gets a Spot check to see you. 18 dex (+4), 4 ranks Sleight of Hand, deft hands (+2), kender (+2) could actually get an item they saw 60% of the time. Given that Rangers have Spot as a class skill and likely have a higher wisdom there's a not unreasonable chance (~40%) that the Ranger would see what happened. Of course...everyone present would also get a Spot check to notice the interaction.

Oh, right and given that everyone in this setting would be familiar with Kender proclivities, the DC isn't 20...it's actually 30 to start with. Which makes it almost impossible (18 after modifiers) for said Kender to take anything. (All this is assuming 1st level characters, of course)

I think Kender might only be a problem if ones' DM starts cutting corners with the rules around skill checks. Still, if it got to be a problem, wouldn't the non-good characters start threatening said Kender with death next time they take anything? (i.e. Obsessively track their gear and kill the Kender if anything goes missing)

Actually, Sleight of hand states that when lifting items off of someone else, the DC to do so successfully is 20. However, to actually spot the item being taken, you need to make a Spot check opposed to the result that the Person making a Slight of hand check got.

That said, our Kender has the Handler prestige class, which lets him add his class levels to Slieght of hand for the purposes of being noticed while lifting items, so he had a better than average chance to take the item, despite the GM giving us all a +2 to spot checks vs the Kender because we're all used to him.

And finally, you're right about the act of frisking, but in this case it was more an act of slipping a hand into the Ranger's belt-pouch and rolling randomly to see what he turned up.

[Pickford]

Actually, Sleight of hand states that when lifting items off of someone else, the DC to do so successfully is 20. However, to actually spot the item being taken, you need to make a Spot check opposed to the result that the Person making a Slight of hand check got.

That said, our Kender has the Handler prestige class, which lets him add his class levels to Slieght of hand for the purposes of being noticed while lifting items, so he had a better than average chance to take the item, despite the GM giving us all a +2 to spot checks vs the Kender because we're all used to him.

And finally, you're right about the act of frisking, but in this case it was more an act of slipping a hand into the Ranger's belt-pouch and rolling randomly to see what he turned up.

DC 20 if the subject isn't watching you (or if you didn't already try and fail), each subsequent attempt increases the DC by 10. 20 is just the base dc, it can easily be higher.

[One Step Two]

DC 20 if the subject isn't watching you (or if you didn't already try and fail), each subsequent attempt increases the DC by 10. 20 is just the base dc, it can easily be higher.

I don't really see how you're coming to that conclusion that it is only 20 to spot it. Or am I mistaken in what you're trying to communicate here?

The SRD states this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/sleightOfHand.htm) when it comes to lifting a small item.


If you try to take something from another creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to obtain it. The opponent makes a Spot check to detect the attempt, opposed by the same Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item.

DC 20 is what you need to successfully get the item.
For your opponent to catch you, they need to meet your roll. So if a would be pick-pocket gets a total of 25 on their slight of hand, they got the item, and the opponent needs to make a spot of 25.

The only other circumstances to change that are if you're trying to rush the action or retry. Nothing else seems to give the spotter a bonus to see it coming in the base description of Slight of Hand.

[Pickford]

I don't really see how you're coming to that conclusion that it is only 20 to spot it. Or am I mistaken in what you're trying to communicate here?

The SRD states this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/sleightOfHand.htm) when it comes to lifting a small item.



DC 20 is what you need to successfully get the item.
For your opponent to catch you, they need to meet your roll. So if a would be pick-pocket gets a total of 25 on their slight of hand, they got the item, and the opponent needs to make a spot of 25.

The only other circumstances to change that are if you're trying to rush the action or retry. Nothing else seems to give the spotter a bonus to see it coming in the base description of Slight of Hand.

Yeah I'm saying the DC to get the item starts at 20 and goes up by 10 based off any previous failures, or if you were seen once before. (i.e. 30, then 40, and so on, making it progressively harder for anyone to do it again).

Really, a character just has to get lucky/have a decent spot check, to make themselves immune to it.

[LOSFERWORDS]

It's not even really incorrect as I see it though. I mean I presume you're making a reference to Raistlin there, unless another mortal did the same thing eventually in some novel I didn't read. But consider that you mentioned there was Time Travel Shenanigans that resulted in him having a momentary flash of good near the end, and allowed his brother to do what had to be done to stop the total and complete destruction of Krynn.

... then remember "Total and complete destruction of Krynn" was the result of a NPC effectively "Solving the plot" by killing the evil goddess and upsetting the meta-plot story that Krynn is based around. It's not even hyperbole, when they go to the future after Raistlin succeeds, everything has been destroyed. Everything.

So even the prototypical example of an NPC managing to "Solve" the plot in the setting resulted in the entire setting getting reamed into nothingness like some bad scene left on the cutting room floor of Shawshank Redemption.

The other example being the King-Priest of Ishtar, where "Good" has won, eliminated evil as any real force in the world, and finally solved the setting's plot... and what was the result of it? The great god of goodness, the platinum dragon dropping the Meteor Spell on Krynn, wiping out most life on the planet, and resetting the plot.

Because even the writers of the original setting realized that... the setting was defined by the conflict. If it was solved, it broke the setting. So something had to happen to stop anything from happening to break the stalemate. Heck, it's why they go chuck your ass off Krynn if you ever reach level 17 and might be powerful enough to fix the story.

Course, you also have problems like the fact that because it was based on a story... you either end up rehashing the story in a campaign "Okay guys, you're all playing the Heroes of the Lance/Their thinly veiled proxies in an alternate history", or you end up with a campaign where the players are aware that they aren't the Heroes of the Lance, and in the end if balance is going to be restored, the stalemate enforced again, etc, it's going to be because of the actions of someone else entirely. They have no real control over their own plot. The Dragon War, etc, is entirely out of their hands and they can only impact it in the most minor of ways.


My takeaways from this thread...

- Wow, there were still gamers like this in 2013!

- Obviously, Kender and Edgelords do not mix.

- There are players/DMs who treat RPGs as a tactical wargame rather than a storytelling venture?

[Jervis]

I have a setting that has nearly all 3.5 content in it. Kender are the exception however because they were exterminated by a coalition of all sentient races, outsiders of all alignments, elementals from every elemental plane, etc. A truce was agreed upon between all of them until such time as Kender have been removed from this reality. That said i headcannon that Kender are in fact not actually a biological species but are instead all avatars of a single chaotic chaotic aligned trickster god who creates a constant aura of aggravation, meaning they aren’t so much born as they manifest spontaneously whenever and wherever they can create the most annoyance.

[AvatarVecna]

There are four things about kender that can grate on some people's nerves.

1) Their lack of respect for other people's private property. This isn't a mechanical thing, they don't have enormous bonuses to SoH. The point isn't that they succeed. The point is that, at least if you are playing the race correct, they attempt it. Constantly. And see absolutely nothing wrong with what they're doing. And don't understand why you're so upset to find their fingers in your pockets, or your keepsakes in their luggage.

2) Kenders have a mechanically-represented inability to take anything seriously. In some respects, this can be admirable - being the one person in a crapsack world who can keep a smile and a laugh no matter how bleak things get. In other respects, some people will be rather annoyed if the bad guy is demonstrating what an ******* he is by murdering everyone in the town - who the PCs might have very close personal connections with - and this ******* over here is cracking jokes and refuses to let the mood of the scene permeate. Some people enjoy how the fiction of the game lets them explore darker emotions, and a kender being present kind of ruins it, if the kender is being played appropriately to their race.

3) The way the world around them is designed, everybody loves Kender. Nobody takes kender seriously. Thievery? That's just how kender are. Laughing at my dead loved ones because the BBEG isn't scary enough to make a Kender flinch in fear? That's just how kender are. You have to forgive them. Everybody does. Nobody minds. This is a double-edged issue, really. First off, this "they can do no wrong" aspect of Kender? It's one of the worst traits of Mary Sues. The entire race can do no wrong, and won't get held accountable for behavior that, coming from anyone else, might result in weapons being drawn. But that's only a problem for if you're reading books set in the world, and you're like "nobody would realistically forgive the kender after what they just did". It's bad writing, not a personal attack. No, the personal attack comes in when you have to play at the same table as a kender: now, if you get pissed off at the kender for being the worst, congratulations! You're playing out of character. Their character decision is now dictating your character's behavior. It's exactly as much of a buzzkill as having a Paladin in the party - except where a Paladin is enforcing a LG code on a party who might want to use more underhanded tactics, the Kender is forcing a CN attitude on the party, where if they don't go with the flow and be chill with everything, they're not roleplaying right.

4) All of the above? It's on purpose. The guy who wrote them made them a caricature of everything he personally hated about halflings.

It's an entire race of pocket-picking scene-ruining Mary Sues on purpose.

[LOSFERWORDS]

It's an entire race of pocket-picking scene-ruining Mary Sues on purpose.

If you hate Kender, you hate children.

Why do you hate children?

[LOSFERWORDS]

I have a setting that has nearly all 3.5 content in it. Kender are the exception however because they were exterminated by a coalition of all sentient races, outsiders of all alignments, elementals from every elemental plane, etc. A truce was agreed upon between all of them until such time as Kender have been removed from this reality. That said i headcannon that Kender are in fact not actually a biological species but are instead all avatars of a single chaotic chaotic aligned trickster god who creates a constant aura of aggravation, meaning they aren’t so much born as they manifest spontaneously whenever and wherever they can create the most annoyance.

How is your population of Ellistraeian Drow?

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: even Kender need to take Thread Necromancy seriously.