Best race for a game where level adjustments are ignored

[Myou]

I'm making a ccharacter for a game in which level adjustments are going to be ignored (probably partially, maybe entirely), so I'm looking for a race that would make an especially good wizard. I'm looking at incantatrix and/or IotSFV for PrCs.
I'm especially interested in races that owuld make me harder to kill. I may also be able to use Dragon Magasine material like Faerie Mysteries Initiate.

Thanks!

[Captnq]

Primordial Half-Giant Ultimate magus.

[eggynack]

You may need to be more specific about how much LA is being ignored. As is, it seems like the best idea is to just pick up something with like +12 LA or something, and win the game forever. Are ya looking for +1, or +2, or +as much as possible, or what?

[Myou]

Primordial Half-Giant Ultimate magus.

I'm really conflicted on UM - the abilities are nice,and I really like the fluff, but being one and a half spell levels behind really really hurts - you'll only be able to get a couple of 9th level spells a day, and only when you hit level 20. The other issue I have is that it only lasts ten levels - so either your sorcerer casting stagnates after that, or else you need another theurge style prc.


You may need to be more specific about how much LA is being ignored. As is, it seems like the best idea is to just pick up something with like +12 LA or something, and win the game forever. Are ya looking for +1, or +2, or +as much as possible, or what?

The DM has been a little cagey about this - I think he plans to go case by case. He said, for example, that drow and aasimaar will have it ignored, but that a really powerful creature might have to come with roleplaying constraints or other mechanical drawbacks. I get the impression anything that isn't totally ridiculous, like LA12, will probably be OK. Sorry I can't be more informative there.

[prufock]

Likely answer is going to be a race with no RHD (doesn't matter what its LA is), then stack on templates with level adjustments. Usually I think races with high LA also come saddled with RHD, so template stacking would be more efficient.

Just as examples, if you want to go melee you'll probably look at dwarf/goliath/half-giant/half-ogre or whatever, then tack on feral, mineral warrior, and monster of legends, plus whatever else floats your boat.

[Craft (Cheese)]

How do RHD work?

If you want something hard to kill, I've always wanted to play a Ghost PC (that +5 LA is rough). Being a spellcaster works perfectly with your incorporeality.

[sideswipe]

find a base race you like with a huge LA and very few racial hit dice. then add the vampire template. say you stack up to LA 20. you have your base race which will already be god. and then you add almost immortal and DOMINATE AT WILL. and then i believe you can use a feat or two to stupidly increase your dominate's cr. and see what happens :)

[skyth]

I'm a fan of the Half-Celestial template (Or half-fiendish)

[Talya]

Magic-Blooded Half Celestial Pixie with Irresistable Dance.

(Make sure you also take the "Magic in the Blood" feat)

[Lord_Lexis]

Rakshasa... If you don't bother their ugly hands, you can get a pretty nice caster here..

[Elderand]

well, how about you stack all the templates....all of them.

[Jormengand]

Phrenic Fiendish Half-fiend Half-dragon ghost pixie capable of using irresistible dance. You have an LA of twenty, but does that matter?

[Elderand]

Phrenic Fiendish Half-fiend Half-dragon ghost pixie capable of using irresistible dance. You have an LA of about twenty, but does that matter?

Add magic blooded, unholy scion, unseelie fey and if you can convince the dm it actually has an LA, paragon. And pseudonatural while we are at it.

[Ezekiul]

A Dragonwraught Kobold with the templates Archdragon (+4 LA),Vampiric Dragon (+5 LA), and/or Dracolich (+4 LA) would be silly if you could swing it. Also, the Fire-Souled creature template (+3 LA) which gives some immunity to daze (in addition to other goodies like free leadership, a SA remover, and an aura) is nice and lay down some Born of Three Thunders spells.

[Jormengand]

paragon. And pseudonatural while we are at it.

If you can convince the DM that you're an epic creature, go for it...

[AgentofHellfire]

A Dragonwraught Kobold with the templates Archdragon (+4 LA),Vampiric Dragon (+5 LA), and/or Dracolich (+4 LA) would be silly if you could swing it. Also, the Fire-Souled creature template (+3 LA) which gives some immunity to daze (in addition to other goodies like free leadership, a SA remover, and an aura) is nice and lay down some Born of Three Thunders spells.

Let's not forget the Paragon template, from the Epic Level Handbook. Thaqt just makes the fun even more fun. :smallbiggrin:

[Dr. Cliché]

Do you ignore the LA for everything?

If so, I'd advise looking into templates... :smallbiggrin:

[Myou]

So the DM revealed some more details. Any ability score bonuses are taken out of the point buy - so a template giving +4 to a stat means 4 points less for the point buy. A template giving -4 means four MORE points for the point buy. So it seems now that the name of the game is boosting int/con/dex while lowering other stats. :smalltongue:

Anyone know a good race or template for that?

[eggynack]

So the DM revealed some more details. Any ability score bonuses are taken out of the point buy - so a template giving +4 to a stat means 4 points less for the point buy. A template giving -4 means four MORE points for the point buy. So it seems now that the name of the game is boosting int/con/dex while lowering other stats. :smalltongue:

Anyone know a good race or template for that?
Actually, it looks like what you need is the race with the worst ability score modifiers possible, because those would likely give you better non-score abilities. I have no idea what kinda stuff does that though.

[One Step Two]

What other sources are open to you other than Dragon? Anything setting specific allowed/disallowed? Third Party Materials?

[Annos]

Still pun-pun... or Ao! :smallcool:

[Myou]

Actually, it looks like what you need is the race with the worst ability score modifiers possible, because those would likely give you better non-score abilities. I have no idea what kinda stuff does that though.

Well, lots of -tve, and a few positives to key stats, yeah.


What other sources are open to you other than Dragon? Anything setting specific allowed/disallowed? Third Party Materials?

As far as I know it's anything by WotC. No third party.

[Crake]

I'm really conflicted on UM - the abilities are nice,and I really like the fluff, but being one and a half spell levels behind really really hurts - you'll only be able to get a couple of 9th level spells a day, and only when you hit level 20. The other issue I have is that it only lasts ten levels - so either your sorcerer casting stagnates after that, or else you need another theurge style prc.

It is worth noting, that done properly, you can have wizard 19/sorcerer 8 spellcasting at level 20 with UM, meaning you can use sorcerer spells to fuel metamagic feats of up to +4 (quickened spells anyone?)

I believe it's done sorcerer 1/wizard 4/UM10 with practised spellcaster and Krau Sigil (or some other CL increasing effect that you can apply to just sorcerer), then take all 10 UM levels to up wizard, and take the 7 extra sorc levels from UM, then top off with 5 more levels of wizard, or some other PrC. When you put all that together, with UM's arcane spell power, practised spellcaster and krau sigil, your wizard spells are cast at CL 24 and your sorc spells are cast at CL 17

[Daftendirekt]

Primordial Half-Giant Ultimate magus.

Don't forget the Magic-Blooded template from Dragon #306.

[ninjamaster1991]

So the DM revealed some more details. Any ability score bonuses are taken out of the point buy - so a template giving +4 to a stat means 4 points less for the point buy. A template giving -4 means four MORE points for the point buy. So it seems now that the name of the game is boosting int/con/dex while lowering other stats. :smalltongue:

Anyone know a good race or template for that?

Arctic gives +2 Con, -2 Cha, and a handful more things, for a whopping +0 LA.

[Kuulvheysoon]

How is undeath being treated? As it stands, you lose a complete ability score (Constitution), so how would that affect your point-buy?

[TuggyNE]

So the DM revealed some more details. Any ability score bonuses are taken out of the point buy - so a template giving +4 to a stat means 4 points less for the point buy. A template giving -4 means four MORE points for the point buy.

Assuming it's standard point buy, get the biggest bonuses you can find to your key abilities, since going from 16 to 18 normally costs 6 points, but here it only costs 2 points. Don't bother with negatives in most cases, since they won't be worth all that much in return.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd use the Shadow Creature template from Lords of Madness (+2 LA, doesn't change any ability scores) and the Dark Creature template from Tome of Magic (+1 LA, no ability score changes). That gives you insane bonuses to hide and move silently, makes you extremely fast, and gives you Shadow Blend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadowMastiff.htm), Hide in Plain Sight, Fast Healing, cold resistance, and many other benefits.


I'm really conflicted on UM - the abilities are nice,and I really like the fluff, but being one and a half spell levels behind really really hurts - you'll only be able to get a couple of 9th level spells a day, and only when you hit level 20. The other issue I have is that it only lasts ten levels - so either your sorcerer casting stagnates after that, or else you need another theurge style prc.

What you do is go Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 10, using Illumian with the Krau sigil and Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler. Since UM advances the class with the lower caster level when it only advances one class, all ten of its levels would go toward Wizard. At level 15 you cast spells as a Wizard 14 with a caster level of 19 and as a Beguiler 8 with a caster level of 18. Get the feat Versatile Spellcaster and you can spend two Beguiler spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher, including Wizard spells you've learned. This allows you to cast up to 5th level Beguiler spells, and gives you spontaneous access to every Wizard spell you know of up to 5th level. Illumians are Humanoid (Human) so you can even get Able Learner and keep getting ranks in those Beguiler class skills at class-skill cost for your entire career.

[J-H]

If you don't mind Psionics, try being an Unbodied.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm
They are basically what you get from the Psion Uncarnate PRC, but without losing caster levels if you can get rid of the LA.
Perfect flight, perfect silence stealth-wise, the ability to pass through objects, and incorporeality - pretty much perfect for a caster.

[JaronK]

There's an amphibious template... -2 dex, and you can swim and such. Combine that with Shadow and Dark for extra point buy, stealth, and mobility!

For extra fun, be a Venerable Unseelie Fey Dragonwrought Kobold for a huge Int bonus and damage to enemy saves.

JaronK

[bekeleven]

+1 to a stat for -1 to point-buy is a great deal. point-buy begins with buying stats at 1:1, then they get more expensive. It's strictly the same or superior.

So why wouldn't you be a feral mineral warrior for a total of +6 Str, -2 Dex, +6 Con, -6 Int, -2 Cha? Also DR 8/Adamantine, a burrow speed, +10 con, fast healing, etc etc etc....

Then consider the multitudes of templates that don't change stats at all. Chameleon Dark and Desert are some of my favorites due to low LA, but I guess that's hardly a restriction right now, is it?

...but seriously. Get an idea of your group's op level first. Don't screw up the gentleman's agreement, it will end up fun for nobody.

[ShurikVch]

If you want to play as wizard, pick some creature which add to wizard's spellcasting.
Ethergaunts can be problematic to roleplay, but there are other options:
Drider - 6 HD aberration, cast as 6th lvl wizard (or sorc, or cleric), LA +4
Fensir (from Fiend Folio) - 4 HD giant, cast as 5th lvl wizard, LA +5
Varrangoin Arcanist (from Fiend Folio) - 8 HD monstrous humanoid, cast as 9th lvl wizard, LA unknown
Hobgoblin Warcaster (from MMV) - 4 HD monstrous humanoid, cast as 4th lvl wizard, LA +3
Ursinal (from BoED) - 10 HD outsider, cast as 12th lvl wizard, LA +8

Also, Spellhoarding template switch dragon's spellcasting from sorcerer-like to wizard-like. Take Steel Dragon (or, even better, Tome Dragon) as base creature

[Craft (Cheese)]

Then consider the multitudes of templates that don't change stats at all. Chameleon Dark and Desert are some of my favorites due to low LA, but I guess that's hardly a restriction right now, is it?

If I may ask, where's the Desert Template? I can't find a source on it.

[Myou]

Thanks everyone, from the wealth of great suggestions I put together a character I'm really pleased with, a half-fiend arctic air genasai warblade//wizard. :smallcool:

I'd have loved to throw on shadow and dark templates as well, but I don't want to overshadow the other players. :smallbiggrin:

[bekeleven]

If I may ask, where's the Desert Template? I can't find a source on it.

It's from Dragon. +0 LA, +2 Survival, +1 saves vs fire, -1/cold, create water 1/day. Pretty minor, but hey, it's +0.

[Artillery]

Feral Template. Net +0 to stats, +4 str, -2 dex, +2 con, -4 int. +6 NA, +10ft movespeed, 2 claw attacks, hitdice become D10s. Gets you fast healing and depending on level, Improved Grab, Pounce, Rake, and Rend. LA +1.

Pixie is very good if you are able to not pay level adjustment, though it does have a total +20 to attributes. You can pick and choose if you use the Savage Species Progression.

If you do the 4 level version you get -4 str, +6 dex, +6 int, +6 cha, +2 wis. Fly speed 60ft good, natural invisibility, some spell like abilities.

Shadow Template has nice things and has +0 to stats for LA +2.

If you are going caster be a Kobold for -4 attributes. Dragonwrought and increase age for +6 to all mental stats and no more penalties to physical stats. Dragonwrought is a feat too not a template so don't need to worry about its benefits. Combine that with other templates for good times.

[Sir Chuckles]

Rakshasa Ghost, all the bloodlines.

Tack on any Primordial, Vampire, etc. you want for extra stats.

[bekeleven]

Pixie is very good if you are able to not pay level adjustment, though it does have a total +20 to attributes. You can pick and choose if you use the Savage Species Progression.This is not true - Savage Species monster classes must be finished before levels in any other class can be taken.

[morkendi]

Feral, dark, whisper gnome with gnome illusion substitution levels. Shadow craft mage.