Ability increase from items, when do they apply?

[Ansem]

Hello, I've gotten into the topic as of late with my group how ability scores with items should be treated.
For example, the DM over a thing decided that an item granting WIS bonus for the cleric, giving him a modifier of +4 (17wis+1) does not grant him bonus spells as if he had this as his ability score, as he stated that items grant temporary modifiers and therefor not apply. I would however think that this effect lasts as long as you have the item, since I doubt one would lose gloves of dexterity or a headband of intellect anytime soon, therefor seen as permanent.
I'm having the same issue with intelligence, I have 19 INT and a headband of +1 Intelligence, would this grant me 1 extra skillpoint per level or not?
Also, does it work in reversed force (when you get a +1 int modifier, does that also grant you +1skillpoint for every level, like how an increased con modifier grants you a HP bonus from every level).

Hope the playground can inform me on this. Thanks in advance ^^

[Aegis013]

You get everything from having items of X enhancement bonus to Y-attribute, generally.

However, there are a couple of specific exceptions that I'm aware of for Intelligence.

In the description for handband of intelligence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#headbandofIntellect) it explicitly calls out that you do not gain additional skill points upon leveling up.

In the description for the Intelligence (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Intelligence) attribute itself, it says you do not retroactively gain skillpoints like you would if you increased your Constitution.

However, you would get bonus spells if you were an Intelligence based caster. Your cleric should get bonus spells from his item, in your example. He will, however, lose those bonus spells should he A. lose that item, B. Go into an anti-magic field or dead magic zone in which that item will no longer function.

Those types of items also will let you qualify for feats. Ex. A Rogue with 14 Dexterity equips a pair of Gloves of Dexterity +2, and then selects Two Weapon Fighting as his feat at the next level. However, if he loses the bonus and goes below the feat's 15 Dexterity prerequisite, he will lose the benefits of the feat. He will not be able to get a different feat unless he is allowed and uses the retraining rules from the Player's Handbook 2.

[Urpriest]

You can't have a +1 Headband of Intelligence. Items that give bonuses to ability scores always give even bonuses, because otherwise they would unduly depend on whether your initial score was even or odd.

[137beth]

In the description for handband of intelligence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#headbandofIntellect) it explicitly calls out that you do not gain additional skill points upon leveling up.

In the description for the Intelligence (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Intelligence) attribute itself, it says you do not retroactively gain skillpoints like you would if you increased your Constitution.


Do note that in PF they changed this--skill points are gained retroactively if your intelligence is permanently increased.


The general rule appears to be that 'permanent' item boosts count as temperary for the first 24 hours, but permanent if you continue wearing them after that. So in the case of spellcasters, it would not grant bonus spells the first day you have the item, but would after that.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Hello, I've gotten into the topic as of late with my group how ability scores with items should be treated.
For example, the DM over a thing decided that an item granting WIS bonus for the cleric, giving him a modifier of +4 (17wis+1) does not grant him bonus spells as if he had this as his ability score, as he stated that items grant temporary modifiers and therefor not apply. I would however think that this effect lasts as long as you have the item, since I doubt one would lose gloves of dexterity or a headband of intellect anytime soon, therefor seen as permanent.

You would be right the effects last long enough to rest and prepare spells so they should provide bonus spells. The minute per level spells state they don't grant bonus spells however the permanent magic items have no such line and as they could be worn continuously there is no reason they shouldn't grant bonus spells.

To further this point, Erl the Gaunt is a Lich stated out in the book Libris Mortis,
Wiz3/Cleric3/Mystic Theuage 8 his stated intelligence is 24 which would include his headband of intellect+4. He'd also have only five level two spells prepared instead of six.

Now lets look at Tevangia Zail Evoker13/Archmage5 she's trickier due to high arcana. She has a headband of intellect+6 and a total intelligence of 30. Now she has only three ninth level spells prepared with the forth slot converted into meteor swarm 2/day as a spell-like ability.

Finally we have Kur'latt a Githzerai sorcerer Lich, He has 12 levels in sorcerer and has the following spells per day. Sorcerer Spells A Day (cast 6/8/8/8/7/6/4):, if his cloak of charisma+4 didn't apply to bonus spells he'd cast one less second, third and sixth level spell.



I'm having the same issue with intelligence, I have 19 INT and a headband of +1 Intelligence, would this grant me 1 extra skillpoint per level or not?
Also, does it work in reversed force (when you get a +1 int modifier, does that also grant you +1skillpoint for every level, like how an increased con modifier grants you a HP bonus from every level).
Constitution modifiers your hit points at all times, not just when you level up, if your con goes up in battle our maximum hit points go up, if it goes down your maximum hit points go down.

Intelligence only modifies your skill points when you level up. Hit points changing up and down due to bonuses or penalties to constitution is workable but skill points not so much? Which skill points came from the magic item which didn't? Could you take the intelligence item on and off to change bonus skill point allocation?
In any event the headband of intellect flat out states it doesn't apply to skill points. This is also found in the PHB under experience and levels wish and ability score increases from leveling up would help but not retroactively.

In Pathfinder Intelligent boosting items are linked to a single skill(chosen at creation of the item) and whomever possesses it gains max ranks in that one skill after wearing it for 24 hours.

Personally I house ruled that the linked skill is determined by the character wearing the item but that choice applies to all such items and can only be changed by leveling up.

[eggynack]

You would be right the effects last long enough to rest and prepare spells so they should provide bonus spells. The minute per level spells state they don't grant bonus spells however the permanent magic items have no such line and as they could be worn continuously there is no reason they shouldn't grant bonus spells.
However, owl's insight lacks such a comment. I've never been sure whether that means that owl's insight applies to bonus spells, though it'd be pretty cool if it did. Bull's strength also lacks the part about not applying to bonus spells, for obvious reasons, so if you're an illumian using aeshkrau, you'd presumably be able to gain bonus spells that way. That'd be doubly neat.

[Talya]

Do note that in PF they changed this--skill points are gained retroactively if your intelligence is permanently increased.



Items in PF still don't directly increase skill points by intelligence increase, though. Instead, you pick 1 skill on a +2 int item, 2 skills on a +4 int item, or 3 skills on a +6 int item that are considered capped if you're wearing the item. Those skills are chosen by the item creator at the time of creation, and they do not stack with any ranks you may already have in those skills. This is really nice, because it means even temporary bonuses can effectively give you skill points, if you get the item made exactly as you want it.

[Lord Vukodlak]

However, owl's insight lacks such a comment.
No its in there.

The transmuted creature becomes wiser. The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Wisdom, adding the usual benefit to Wisdom-related skills. Clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers (and other Wisdom-based spellcasters) who receive owl’s wisdom do not gain any additional bonus spells for the increased Wisdom, but the save DCs for their spells increase.

[eggynack]

No its in there.
You're reading owl's wisdom. Owl's insight is from the spell compendium, page 152, and grants an insight bonus to wisdom equal to half your caster level for an hour.

[Douglas]

Hello, I've gotten into the topic as of late with my group how ability scores with items should be treated.
For example, the DM over a thing decided that an item granting WIS bonus for the cleric, giving him a modifier of +4 (17wis+1) does not grant him bonus spells as if he had this as his ability score, as he stated that items grant temporary modifiers and therefor not apply. I would however think that this effect lasts as long as you have the item, since I doubt one would lose gloves of dexterity or a headband of intellect anytime soon, therefor seen as permanent.
Ask him to point out a rule quote in the books that specifies "permanent ability score" rather than "ability score" concerning bonus spells. I will be very surprised if he is able to do so, as to the best of my extensive D&D knowledge no such passage exists.

The rules for bonus spell slots reference the ability score, full stop. Without specific and explicit exceptions, that includes absolutely everything that modifies the score. The onus is on him to find a rule excluding something, not on you to find a rule including it.

The spells Fox's Cunning, Owl's Wisdom, etc., all have specific explicit clauses that state they do not affect bonus spells. The items that increase ability scores lack any such clause, so they do affect bonus spells.


I'm having the same issue with intelligence, I have 19 INT and a headband of +1 Intelligence, would this grant me 1 extra skillpoint per level or not?
The Headband of Intellect specifically states it does not affect skill points.


Also, does it work in reversed force (when you get a +1 int modifier, does that also grant you +1skillpoint for every level, like how an increased con modifier grants you a HP bonus from every level).

Hope the playground can inform me on this. Thanks in advance ^^
Skill points only exist during the levelup process, and are immediately spent. Outside of that instant of leveling up, there are no skill points to gain - or lose - due to changes in intelligence. Further, the skill points section of the levelup process goes out of its way to reference current permanent intelligence, not intelligence you might have had in the past or might have in the future. Thus, intelligence does not have a retroactive effect on skill points.

[Lightlawbliss]

You can't have a +1 Headband of Intelligence. Items that give bonuses to ability scores always give even bonuses, because otherwise they would unduly depend on whether your initial score was even or odd.

To my knowledge, no RAW gives this. I know the premade ones are all even, but I don't consider that enough to prove or disprove your claim.

[Urpriest]

To my knowledge, no RAW gives this. I know the premade ones are all even, but I don't consider that enough to prove or disprove your claim.

The "premade" ones are the only ones that exist. Beyond that, you're dealing with custom items, which are limited by DM decisions. And no DM is going to allow you to make a custom item that gives an odd stat bonus, because anyone who doesn't understand why everything gives even stat bonuses wouldn't be confident enough with the rules to bother DMing.

[KillianHawkeye]

To my knowledge, no RAW gives this. I know the premade ones are all even, but I don't consider that enough to prove or disprove your claim.

It's the simple fact that they only exist in even numbers. It's not a claim, it's a fact.

[Lightlawbliss]

The "premade" ones are the only ones that exist. Beyond that, you're dealing with custom items, which are limited by DM decisions. And no DM is going to allow you to make a custom item that gives an odd stat bonus, because anyone who doesn't understand why everything gives even stat bonuses wouldn't be confident enough with the rules to bother DMing.

I would allow it. Your claim is false and void.

edit: emphasis mine

edit 2: Would you mind if I sent that to my English Prof. for extra credit, that is enough logical fallacies to qualify.

[137beth]

It's the simple fact that they only exist in even numbers. It's not a claim, it's a fact.

The pre-made ones are all even. Virtually nothing in 3.5 RAW, however, says anything to ban odd ability score boosts.

In PF this is not true, of course, as they used the FAQ to alter the rules to say that only even ability score increases can be granted by magic items.

[eggynack]

Would you mind if I sent that to my English Prof. for extra credit, that is enough logical fallacies to qualify.
Is there really more than just the one? I only see the one that you've noted, which seems to be the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, if I'm not mistaken.

[KillianHawkeye]

The pre-made ones are all even. Virtually nothing in 3.5 RAW, however, says anything to ban odd ability score boosts.

First, the RAW provides no mechanism by which ability score boosts can be an odd number. It doesn't exist. That was the aforementioned statement of fact. They do not need to be banned explicitly when they have no mechanism for existing in the first place.

Second, I agree with Urpriest. Anybody who doesn't understand WHY all stat boosts are even, and why that SHOULD be the case, probably shouldn't be a DM. It's a matter of literally lacking a solid comprehension of the game mechanics from a behind-the-scenes viewpoint. There's a fundamental difference between knowing the rules and obeying them (or not), and understanding why the rules are what they are to begin with.

[Harrow]

What? Non-even ability score bonuses? Don't those turn the skies to fire and rivers to blood?

Ok, I'll bite, why do ability score bonuses have to be even?

[KillianHawkeye]

Ok, I'll bite, why do ability score bonuses have to be even?

So that they have a consistent effect regardless of who it is applied to. Every +2 to an ability score equals a +1 to the relevant checks and modifiers. When you introduce an odd number like a Headband of Intellect +1, that item either increases the wearer's Intelligence in a meaningful way or it does absolutely nothing. That is just bad design.

Anybody can change the rules in the games they run, but those who do not understand the rules are incapable of determining whether or not the rules need to be changed or stay the same.

[eggynack]

First, the RAW provides no mechanism by which ability score boosts can be an odd number. It doesn't exist. That was the aforementioned statement of fact. They do not need to be banned explicitly when they have no mechanism for existing in the first place.

The item creation guidelines have a provision for creating ability score boosts of non-even numbers. It's not really a RAW thing, but it is a RAW provided mechanism. You are correct that they don't have to be banned explicitly though, given that the player would have to ask permission to make use of that mechanism.

[Harrow]

So that they have a consistent effect regardless of who it is applied to. Every +2 to an ability score equals a +1 to the relevant checks and modifiers. When you introduce an odd number like a Headband of Intellect +1, that item either increases the wearer's Intelligence in a meaningful way or it does absolutely nothing. That is just bad design.

Anybody can change the rules in the games they run, but those who do not understand the rules are incapable of determining whether or not the rules need to be changed or stay the same.

Uh... what? Odd bonuses happen in other places. Age bonuses and extra points from level, just off the top of my head. I really don't see the problem in odd bonuses, and I especially don't see how allowing them means a DM is incompetent at all, much less to the point of them not deserving the role.

[KillianHawkeye]

Uh... what? Odd bonuses happen in other places. Age bonuses and extra points from level, just off the top of my head. I really don't see the problem in odd bonuses, and I especially don't see how allowing them means a DM is incompetent at all, much less to the point of them not deserving the role.

That is completely different because it's a matter of gradual change and slight improvements. :smallannoyed:

The subject at hand is an item which you can put on and take off, and having an odd numbered bonus in that case makes no sense for the reasons I've already described. Same with the temporary buff spells (Bull's Strength, etc.), an odd numbered bonus destroys any universal applicability. This was a mistake they made with those spells in 3E and corrected in the 3.5 upgrade.

With a permanent bonus, it's not such a big deal because that's more individualized, but temporary effects like spells and items need to have the same effect regardless of who the target is.

EDIT: And yes, anyone who doesn't understand this is not someone I would want to DM for me, unless it was when the system was brand new because everyone was a newbie back then. But now? Sorry, no.

[eggynack]

The subject at hand is an item which you can put on and take off, and having an odd numbered bonus in that case makes no sense for the reasons I've already described. Same with the temporary buff spells (Bull's Strength, etc.), an odd numbered bonus destroys any universal applicability. This was a mistake they made with those spells in 3E and corrected in the 3.5 upgrade.
It's pretty easy to make an argument for why there should be odd numbered upgrades. As is, apart from some prerequisites, there is no reason at all to have odd ability scores. Everything just settles around the evens, with no reason to do it in a different way, and it makes the existence of odd numbered ability scores kinda irrelevant. If there were items that gave incentives for having odd ability scores, then it would give those once nearly pointless values meaning.

On a similar note, the lack of such incentives basically means that the points you get from leveling are only relevant every 8th level, which is really slow. Also, tomes max out at an odd number, which does push towards odds to some extent. Sure, you can't take it off, but it is an item thing. This is not to say that you necessarily should have odd items, but it's not like such a thing would be the worst idea ever.

[137beth]

It's pretty easy to make an argument for why there should be odd numbered upgrades. As is, apart from some prerequisites, there is no reason at all to have odd ability scores. Everything just settles around the evens, with no reason to do it in a different way, and it makes the existence of odd numbered ability scores kinda irrelevant. If there were items that gave incentives for having odd ability scores, then it would give those once nearly pointless values meaning.

On a similar note, the lack of such incentives basically means that the points you get from leveling are only relevant every 8th level, which is really slow. Also, tomes max out at an odd number, which does push towards odds to some extent. Sure, you can't take it off, but it is an item thing. This is not to say that you necessarily should have odd items, but it's not like such a thing would be the worst idea ever.
Indeed, I've considered eliminating ability scores and converting everything to work from ability modifiers, for precisely this reason.


@KillianHawkeye: Keep in mind that in addition to the rare odd bonus, there are also odd penalties, in the form of ability drain or damage, that can be used on anyone (who isn't immune). Would you say that that was also a mistake from 3e and that anyone who uses odd-valued ability drain or ability drain/damage with a die roll involved (which can take on odd values) shouldn't DM?

[KillianHawkeye]

As is, apart from some prerequisites, there is no reason at all to have odd ability scores. Everything just settles around the evens, with no reason to do it in a different way, and it makes the existence of odd numbered ability scores kinda irrelevant.

I can't tell if you're arguing for my point or against it. Just add the word "bonus" after every instance of "ability scores" and you're kind of making my point for me.


On a similar note, the lack of such incentives basically means that the points you get from leveling are only relevant every 8th level, which is really slow.

Not necessarily true. If you have multiple odd-numbered ability scores due to the luck of rolling dice, you can use your level-up points every four levels to even them out.


Also, tomes max out at an odd number, which does push towards odds to some extent. Sure, you can't take it off, but it is an item thing. This is not to say that you necessarily should have odd items, but it's not like such a thing would be the worst idea ever.

I already addressed permanent increases such as tomes, aging, and level-up increases. Those get a pass because they are permanent and, as such, using them is more subject to the needs of the individual. There isn't as much need for a consistent effect when used on different characters because they are only ever being used on one character.


EDIT:

@KillianHawkeye: Keep in mind that in addition to the rare odd bonus, there are also odd penalties, in the form of ability drain or damage, that can be used on anyone (who isn't immune). Would you say that that was also a mistake from 3e and that anyone who uses odd-valued ability drain or ability drain/damage with a die roll involved (which can take on odd values) shouldn't DM?

No, because that is not completely true. Damage is one thing, penalties are another. Damage is always determined by a die roll because that is one of the core premises of the game. Ability damage is one of the few things that give odd-numbered ability scores a reason to exist, and that is fine as it is. Ability score damage also heals at a rate of 1 per day. Changing it would require changing too much of the underlying game, from a mechanical standpoint as well as from a traditional one.

This has very little to do with spells and items which increase ability scores and my reasons for saying those bonuses should always be even. Certainly, you could design a game system where you got a bonus equal to your entire ability score, but that would be a very different game mechanically than d20 D&D.

What I am saying is that, within the existing system of ability scores, there is a strong reason for even bonuses, which is that it makes the improvement to your related modifiers a fixed value. Bringing up other issues that are tangentially related to ability scores is just muddying the waters and in no way disproves the facts that I am trying to explain to you.

[Thanatosia]

There is no reason odd item boosts shouldn't exist. To argue otherwise is to argue against the existance of odd stats in general. Not everything has to be even, and not everything has to affect everyone equally - a fighter is already getting less out of a headband of intellect then a wizard, so how is it any more game breaking that a wizard with int 16 get less out of a headband of int +3 then one with int 17?

Honestly, I think it would be better if the default was odd bonuses, as it would help make odd leveled base stats feel less worthless and wasted.... you get the advantage of optimized stats when you are caught without your gear or your gear gets sundered/destroyed/AMZ'd/Disenchanted vs advantage when geared, versus disadvantaged with odd stats at all times no matter what.

Odd gear bonuses would also de-emphesize chasing the almighty 18 for starting stats.... which IMO is a good thing.

[eggynack]

I can't tell if you're arguing for my point or against it. Just add the word "bonus" after every instance of "ability scores" and you're kind of making my point for me.

I'm arguing against it. In the current system, the difference between 12 intelligence and 13 intelligence is nothing. With a few odd bonus providers, there would be some noticeable difference. It's reasonable to give folks a benefit for having an ability score that's one higher. It's not like the distinction between boosting 12 to 13 and boosting 13 to 14 is arbitrary. The latter stat assignment is higher, and thus allows you to use more items. If you start with 14 instead, then you don't gain the increased item use benefit of 13, but you have a higher modifier natively, which is strictly better. 13 is better than 12, and 14 is better than 13. As is, 14 is better than 13, which is illogically equal to 12. Thus, having odd point value stat bonuses makes the marginal growth in value of points in a stat more gradual than the sporadic growth we have now.

[Fax Celestis]

You can't have a +1 Headband of Intelligence. Items that give bonuses to ability scores always give even bonuses, because otherwise they would unduly depend on whether your initial score was even or odd.

Yes you can. The formula is perfectly functional for odd values. Bonus squared * 1000. A +1 stat item would be 1000 gp.

[Fax Celestis]

In the current system, the difference between 12 intelligence and 13 intelligence is nothing.

No it isn't. Feats have all of their required stats as odd numbers.

A fighter with Int 12 can't qualify for Combat Expertise. One with Int 13 can.

[KillianHawkeye]

Alright, everyone clearly has their own ingrained opinions on the matter and further discussion isn't going to change anything. I didn't mean to step on anybody's toes, and I hope somebody reading this understands what I was trying to say. I wasn't trying to tell people not to use odd-numbered bonuses, only explaining that there was a good reason for them to be even which should be understood before making any changes to the way things work. Anyway, it's time to let bygones be bygones, so I'll be going now. Peace!

[Fax Celestis]

Alright, everyone clearly has their own ingrained opinions on the matter and further discussion isn't going to change anything. I didn't mean to step on anybody's toes, and I hope somebody reading this understands what I was trying to say. I wasn't trying to tell people not to use odd-numbered bonuses, only explaining that there was a good reason for them to be even which should be understood before making any changes to the way things work. Anyway, it's time to let bygones be bygones, so I'll be going now. Peace!

I understand what you're saying, but there is a functional difference between an odd score and an even score in the case of feat prerequisites, so stating that functionally a set of gloves of dexterity +1 is only conditionally effective is untrue: at Dex 11, +1 makes you 12 which increases your modifier; at 12, +1 makes you 13 which qualifies you for Dex 13 prereqs (like TWF); at 13, +1 makes you 14, which increases your modifier; at 14, +1 makes you 15, which makes you eligible for another tier of TWF feats; etc., etc., all the way up to Dex 19 (and up to 20s and 30s in epic).

[Story]

The "premade" ones are the only ones that exist. Beyond that, you're dealing with custom items, which are limited by DM decisions. And no DM is going to allow you to make a custom item that gives an odd stat bonus, because anyone who doesn't understand why everything gives even stat bonuses wouldn't be confident enough with the rules to bother DMing.

You might be able to convince them by pointing out that Extract Gift already allows you to effectively buy odd enhancement bonuses.

[Lord Vukodlak]

There is no reason odd item boosts shouldn't exist. To argue otherwise is to argue against the existance of odd stats in general. Not everything has to be even, and not everything has to affect everyone equally - a fighter is already getting less out of a headband of intellect then a wizard, so how is it any more game breaking that a wizard with int 16 get less out of a headband of int +3 then one with int 17?

Because a fighter doesn't benefit from intelligence as much as he does from strength so that comparison is a red herring.

If your stat is an odd number, then a +1, +3, +5 item is superior then a +2, +4, +6. Its slightly cheaper and the adjustment to your ability modifier is the same. The cost of a stat boosting item should be based on how much it adjusts your ability modifier, which it is so long as odd numbered stat boosts aren't allowed.



Honestly, I think it would be better if the default was odd bonuses, as it would help make odd leveled base stats feel less worthless and wasted.... you get the advantage of optimized stats when you are caught without your gear or your gear gets sundered/destroyed/AMZ'd/Disenchanted vs advantage when geared, versus disadvantaged with odd stats at all times no matter what.

Wouldn't that just make even numbered stats "worthless" how does it solve anything? an actual change would be if every point modified the roll. So 16 strength gives you a +6 bonus, and stat boosting items come in +1, +2, +3.

It take some work adjusting spells, monsters and whatnot but it certainly be doable

[eggynack]

If your stat is an odd number, then a +1, +3, +5 item is superior then a +2, +4, +6. Its slightly cheaper and the adjustment to your ability modifier is the same. The cost of a stat boosting item should be based on how much it adjusts your ability modifier, which it is so long as odd numbered stat boosts aren't allowed.
No, the cost should be based on the point value of the bonus. If the odd guys are paying less money, it's because they deserve to pay less money, because they have a higher starting score. A bigger score is better, and that should mean something.



Wouldn't that just make even numbered stats "worthless" how does it solve anything? an actual change would be if every point modified the roll. So 16 strength gives you a +6 bonus, and stat boosting items come in +1, +2, +3.
No, it would make even stats better if you're not modifying them with items, and odd stats better if you are modifying them with items. There's a trade off between the two allocations.

[Karnith]

No, the cost should be based on the point value of the bonus. If the odd guys are paying less money, it's because they deserve to pay less money, because they have a higher starting score. A bigger score is better, and that should mean something.
Not that I disagree entirely, but remember that a character with 18 Int will derive little benefit from an item of +1 Int, while a character with 17 Int will get a noticeable boost from such an item.

Similarly, improving an ability score from an odd number to an even number will make your odd-numbered ability-boosting items worse, which is an outcome that I personally am not a fan of.

[Lord Vukodlak]

No, the cost should be based on the point value of the bonus. If the odd guys are paying less money, it's because they deserve to pay less money, because they have a higher starting score. A bigger score is better, and that should mean something.
They don't necessarily have a higher score,
A wizard with 15 intelligence gains bonus to his ability modifier from wearing a headband of intellect+1, a wizard with 16 intelligence gains no bonus from the same item. But they'd benefit equally from a +2 headband of intellect.

[eggynack]

Not that I disagree entirely, but a character with 18 Int will derive little benefit from an item of +1 Int, while a character with 17 Int will get a noticeable boost from such an item.
That is true, but the guy with 18 int has the benefit of having 18 int all the time. The 18 int guy could sell the intelligence item freely, and still have the same intelligence as his tragic 17 int brethren. Also, because a lot of these arguments rely on the premise that most of these items are being discovered (because if we're just buying stuff, then it doesn't matter if the 18 int guy doesn't want a +1 item, because he can just not buy one), slot efficiency actually becomes somewhat important. As another note, while the 17 int guy gets more from a +1 item, the 18 int guy gets more from a +2 item, and as +6 is at the top of the curve, the 17 int guy's theoretical maximum from starting + item is one lower than that of 18 int guy.


Similarly, improving an ability score from an odd number to an even number will make your odd-numbered ability-boosting items worse.
I guess that's true, and it's a bit weird, but as it is now, improving your ability score from an even number to an odd number will make your even-numbered ability-boosting items worse. Ultimately, a lot of these problems with the theoretical odd bonus system already exist in the system we have now.

[137beth]

They don't necessarily have a higher score,
A wizard with 15 intelligence gains bonus to his ability modifier from wearing a headband of intellect+1, a wizard with 16 intelligence gains no bonus from the same item. But they'd benefit equally from a +2 headband of intellect.

A wizard with 15 INT a +1 headband is behind the 16 INT wizard in gold and a (important) item slot, so the 16 INT wizard still has an advantage. The 15 INT wizard is spending gold and item slots to reduce a weakness, which is how the game is designed. So having 16 INT is still better than having 15 INT.

On the flip side, a 15 INT wizard with a +1 INT headband is better than a 14 INT wizard with a +1 headband, since the 15 INT wizard ends up with a higher modifier, which is good, since the 15 INT wizard has the higher ability score.

On the other hand, with your system of banning odd-adjustments, having 16 INT is still better than having 15 INT, but 15 INT isn't any better than 14 INT.

[Karnith]

I guess that's true, and it's a bit weird, but as it is now, improving your ability score from an even number to an odd number will make your even-numbered ability-boosting items worse.
I don't follow. With a theoretical +1 stat item, improving an ability score from an odd number to an even number makes the item next-to-useless. With higher-value odd numbers, improving an ability score to an even number makes the item relatively worse than it was, e.g. 15+3 is an ability score modifier bonus of +2 from the item, whereas 16+3 is an ability score modifier bonus of +1 from the item. In the first case (base ability score 15), you were getting the same benefit as from a +4 item, but in the second case (base ability score 16) you were getting the same benefit as a +2 item.

Items granting even-numbered bonuses, by contrast, have a constant effect - they will always give you the same ability score modifier bonus, regardless of whether your base ability score is odd or even, e.g. 15+2 is an ability score modifier bonus of +1 from the item, while 16+2 is still an ability score modifier bonus of +1 from the item. They don't get worse or better depending on the exact value of your ability score.

[eggynack]

I don't follow. With a theoretical +1 stat item, improving an ability score from an odd number to an even number makes the item next-to-useless. With higher-value odd numbers, improving an ability score to an even number makes the item relatively worse than it was, e.g. 15+3 is an ability score modifier bonus of +2 from the item, whereas 16+3 is an ability score modifier bonus of +1 from the item. In the first case, you were getting the same benefit as from a +4 item, but in the second case you were getting the same benefit as a +2 item.

Items granting even-numbered bonuses, by contrast, have a constant effect - they will always give you the same ability score modifier bonus, regardless of whether your base ability score is odd or even, e.g. 15+2 is an ability score modifier bonus of +1 from the item, while 16+2 is still an ability score modifier bonus of +1 from the item. They don't get worse or better depending on the exact value of your ability score.
Ah, I think I misunderstood your point. My claim was that moving from 16+2 to 17+2 is essentially the same as moving from 19+1 to 20+1, because you're not really gaining any extra modifier in the transition. 17+2 is as bad as just 17, when compared to 16+2 or just 16, in other words. I hadn't really considered the idea of the absolute modifier provided by the item changing over time though. It's an interesting issue, though I'm not sure that it's necessarily that problematic of an issue.

[Thanatosia]

Yes, Odd-abilility boost items do make the item weaker (or even worthless in the case of +1) to characters with even stats, but the flip side of making the Odd base stat completely worthless is much much worse IMO. Items come and go and may never be found, characters with odd stats will almost always exist and are therefor gauranteed to be an issue.

Good game design makes it so options are situationally better then one another. Bad Game Design is when one option is always and universally the better choice. With Even modifier items being the only type to exist, then even ability scores are always universally better. Add Odd boosters to the mix, and suddenly having an odd score is situationaly beneficial.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Add Odd boosters to the mix, and suddenly having an odd score is situationaly beneficial.

Except there are odd boosters already, Wish and every 4th level when you get an ability score boost. And there is already a tactful advantage to an odd stat or two.

It takes one wish or one 4th level up boost to make an odd stat even. But it costs two points at creation to raise a 15 to a 16 in 3.5. (three points in pathfinder). Those extra two points could raise another stat by two points, then at 4th level that odd stat is even again.

[eggynack]

Except there are odd boosters already, Wish and every 4th level when you get an ability score boost. And there is already a tactful advantage to an odd stat or two.

It takes one wish or one 4th level up boost to make an odd stat even. But it costs two points at creation to raise a 15 to a 16 in 3.5. (three points in pathfinder). Those extra two points could raise another stat by two points, then at 4th level that odd stat is even again.
So if there's already a tiny advantage to having an odd stat or two, what's the problem in having a bit more advantage? I mean, even you must admit that the current benefit to odd scores is tiny as hell, and that that fact produces characters with oddly (evenly, actually) staggered scores. In any case, the point is that there definitely is reason to have odd bonuses. You may think that the balance of pros versus cons is in the direction of cons, and that's a perfectly fair assessment to make, but a reasonable DM could go the other way. The contention that only a horrible DM would have odd modifiers is thus one that I believe has been proven wrong.

[Lord Vukodlak]

So if there's already a tiny advantage to having an odd stat or two, what's the problem in having a bit more advantage?

A +5 item of x should provide an inferior bonus as to a +6 item of X. Not an equal bonus at a lower cost. So the cost of a stat boosting item should be based off how much it increases your ability score modifier If an item increased your ability modifier by 1 it should cost 4,000gp, if it increases it by 2 it should cost 16,000gp, if it increases it by 3 it should cost 36,000gp.

I'm presuming you still role for your stats instead of using point buy if I still had PC's roll I might allow odd numbered stat boosting items as you might have a character with all odd scores. But if your using point buy and you end up with a bunch of odd ability scores... well its your fault.

In point buy I see odd numbered stat bonus items as kinda munchkiny, you spend a couple points less on your stats because +1 stat boosting items are so cheap.


The contention that only a horrible DM would have odd modifiers is thus one that I believe has been proven wrong.

Did I ever say a horrible DM? no I never made that argument that was someone else.

[eggynack]

A +5 item of x should provide an inferior bonus as to a +6 item of X. Not an equal bonus at a lower cost. So the cost of a stat boosting item should be based off how much it increases your ability score modifier If an item increased your ability modifier by 1 it should cost 4,000gp, if it increases it by 2 it should cost 16,000gp, if it increases it by 3 it should cost 36,000gp.
But if the actual ability score is completely meaningless, why have it even exist? Why not just slice everything up such that every point of ability score has exactly the same value? As is, what is arbitrary isn't that odd items would grant different bonuses to someone with a 12 or a 13. What's arbitrary is that the 12th ability score point would have a different value than the 13th. Ultimately, I think that the pricing should be based off of score rather than modifier, because while a +4 and +5 item would have the same effect on the modifier of a character with 18 in that stat, the latter is applying more magic to get him there. By comparison, a character with 17 in that stat would have to pay more than the 18 guy to hit 22, and the 19 guy would have to pay less. It makes logical sense.


I'm presuming you still role for your stats instead of using point buy if I still had PC's roll I might allow odd numbered stat boosting items as you might have a character with all odd scores. But if your using point buy and you end up with a bunch of odd ability scores... well its your fault.
Not really, no. I discussing this with point buy in mind, and that's the point. As is, in a decision of how to assign stats, unless there's a point left over, odd scores are basically a non-option. The game offers you a choice, and assigns an extremely low value to one of the options, to the point where it might as well not exist. I mean, looking at it realistically, what are the odds that the majority of people would have 12's and 14's instead of 11's and 13's? Does it make sense to shunt all characters to one end or the other? Choices shouldn't exist where one option is so strictly better than another option. This would alleviate that issue somewhat.


In point buy I see odd numbered stat bonus items as kinda munchkiny, you spend a couple points less on your stats because +1 stat boosting items are so cheap.
Why would that be munchkiny? You're paying money to make up that difference, and when you get up to +6 items, making up that difference with these items is actually impossible. Also, these items aren't cheap enough that you'd be able to buy them until level 3 or so, so you'd have to endure the deficit at both extreme low and reasonably high levels. It's a trade off. What really comes across as munchkiny (I really hate this word) is having everyone's stats even to gain the extra modifier point. It's such an obvious choice that no one even thinks about it, but you end up with some weird score assignments. This way you'd get more organic stat assignment.


Did I ever say a horrible DM? no I never made that argument that was someone else.
I'm not saying that you were necessarily saying that, but that's the base argument that I was attempting to disprove with my claim, and it's where all of this started.

[bekeleven]

A +5 item of x should provide an inferior bonus as to a +6 item of X. Not an equal bonus at a lower cost.A 12 in a stat should provide an inferior bonus to a 13 in a stat. Not an equal bonus at a lower cost.

So, do you balance for ability scores (something that a person has 6 of, all the time, at every level) or for custom magical items?

[Urpriest]

Guys, it's not about fairness, it's about design principles. The design principles were created with fairness in mind, but fundamentally it's the principles themselves that are relevant here. The game intentionally sets things up so that ability modifiers are tracked by even scores, while prerequisites and miscellaneous things like carrying capacity are tracked by odd scores. That's what those scores mean. By adding +1 ability bonus items to the game, you're changing what the function of the ability scores themselves is, for basically no reason whatsoever. It would be like making a monster with no hit dice, just bonus HP and bonuses to attack. You could do it, but if you're playing 3.5 you would never choose to because it wouldn't make any damn sense.

[eggynack]

Guys, it's not about fairness, it's about design principles. The design principles were created with fairness in mind, but fundamentally it's the principles themselves that are relevant here. The game intentionally sets things up so that ability modifiers are tracked by even scores, while prerequisites and miscellaneous things like carrying capacity are tracked by odd scores. That's what those scores mean. By adding +1 ability bonus items to the game, you're changing what the function of the ability scores themselves is, for basically no reason whatsoever. It would be like making a monster with no hit dice, just bonus HP and bonuses to attack. You could do it, but if you're playing 3.5 you would never choose to because it wouldn't make any damn sense.
How are you changing the function of ability scores themselves? You'd be making it so that characters can upgrade from the prerequisite/miscellaneous state of being, to the actual modifier based one. The ability scores themselves can means something in particular, but you can have the ability to change what those ability scores are. I mean, you already can do that with leveling and tomes. Granted, those are permanent, but I can't see too big a difference between permanently granted odd scores and impermanently granted ones.

Also, saying that there's absolutely no reason to do this is just wrong, as I've noted in the past. You may not care about having a more even distribution in the power level of ability score assignments, but that doesn't mean that it's not a thing that's relevant. Creating a monster as you've noted would violate the game's design principles for no reason. Adding +1 items wouldn't really violate the game's design principles, at least not much, and it would do so for a reason.

[Fax Celestis]

A 12 in a stat should provide an inferior bonus to a 13 in a stat. Not an equal bonus at a lower cost.

It does: you can't qualify for feats and PrCs with ability prerequisites with a 12, you can with a 13.

[bekeleven]

It does: you can't qualify for feats and PrCs with ability prerequisites with a 12, you can with a 13.

Right, just as a +6 item provides more benefit than a +5 item. It gives literally those exact same things.

[eggynack]

It does: you can't qualify for feats and PrCs with ability prerequisites with a 12, you can with a 13.
I actually can't tell whether this is an argument for or against such an item. The fact that an odd bonus item would still provide some benefit to an even ability scored character seems to be a point in such an item's favor. It means that you can't really consider items purely in terms of modifiers, because the in between places matter, and so it would make some sense to have an item that can upgrade you to those in between places, without going all the way to the next modifier.

[Fax Celestis]

I actually can't tell whether this is an argument for or against such an item. The fact that an odd bonus item would still provide some benefit to an even ability scored character seems to be a point in such an item's favor. It means that you can't really consider items purely in terms of modifiers, because the in between places matter, and so it would make some sense to have an item that can upgrade you to those in between places, without going all the way to the next modifier.

Correct. In addition, I would point out that the designers kept the range of stats specifically how it is now (modifiers go up every even, everything else goes up every odd) for exactly that reason, except that I would bet even money on that they kept it as-is so they could keep the same stat arrangements they kept in previous editions.

[Lord Vukodlak]

You get an ability score modifier every 4 levels, if you have an odd stat you want even use them to make it even.


Why would that be munchkiny? You're paying money to make up that difference, and when you get up to +6 items, making up that difference with these items is actually impossible. Also, these items aren't cheap enough that you'd be able to buy them until level 3 or so, so you'd have to endure the deficit at both extreme low and reasonably high levels. It's a trade off. .

Enduring those levels until you can afford them isn't that hard... especially if a campaign starts above first level. You skim off some secondary stats in the short term to boost a key ability modifier.

And your still not escaping the fact that a +6 item should always provide a bigger bonus then a +5 item, but it won't when it comes to stat boosters. Increasing your ability score modifier by two costs 16,000gp for a +4 magic item. If your ability score is an odd number and you allow an odd numbered stat booster, it would only cost 9,000gp for the +3 item. That is a HUGE discount, for the same result.

Magic items should be priced of the bonus it provides and the bonus from a stat boosting item is how it adjusts your physical ability modifier. A +2 sword is +2 for everyone, +5 armor is +5 for everyone. Thus a stat boosting item should adjust the ability score modifier equally for everyone who wears it that can only happen if
*Unless your going to make the claim that odd stats are in fact useful in which case you invalidate the claim you need odd stat boosters

[Thanatosia]

Magic items should be priced of the bonus it provides and the bonus from a stat boosting item is how it adjusts your physical ability modifier. A +2 sword is +2 for everyone, +5 armor is +5 for everyone. Thus a stat boosting item should adjust the ability score modifier equally for everyone who wears it
This is a completely arbitrary statement that I see no logic to support. Why is it so important that a stat boosting item should provide everyone an equal ability score modifier to everyone? A Holy Avenger provides bigger boosts to a Paladin then to a non-paladin. There are racial items that provide bigger boosts to members of some races then others. There are relics that provide bigger bonuses to followers of certain deities.

Even if you ignore items that provide different raw number benefits based on specific criteria.... raw number bonuses are meaningless compaired to how it affects a characters overall performance. As I mentioned before, a Fighter gets way more benefit out of a +str item then a +int item.... I see no distiction between that and a 15int wizard getting more benefit from a +3 int item then a 16int wizard gets from it, you claim it's different, I fail to see why.

[eggynack]

You get an ability score modifier every 4 levels, if you have an odd stat you want even use them to make it even.
The leveling based stat boosters are great, but they're far too inconsistent and minor to make odd ability score assignment a viable move. Sure, you might have one odd score, but rarely more than one.



Enduring those levels until you can afford them isn't that hard... especially if a campaign starts above first level. You skim off some secondary stats in the short term to boost a key ability modifier.
Sure. It's not the hardest thing in the world. However, it is a trade off. It constitutes that almighty thing that we talk about so often hereabouts: a choice. Choices are interesting. What we have now is not interesting.


And your still not escaping the fact that a +6 item should always provide a bigger bonus then a +5 item, but it won't when it comes to stat boosters. Increasing your ability score modifier by two costs 16,000gp for a +4 magic item. If your ability score is an odd number and you allow an odd numbered stat booster, it would only cost 9,000gp for the +3 item. That is a HUGE discount, for the same result.
Why should it always provide a bigger bonus? The character with the higher ability score deserves that huge discount on the item, because they have a higher ability score. A higher ability score should always provide a bigger bonus than a lower one.


Magic items should be priced of the bonus it provides and the bonus from a stat boosting item is how it adjusts your physical ability modifier. A +2 sword is +2 for everyone, +5 armor is +5 for everyone. Thus a stat boosting item should adjust the ability score modifier equally for everyone who wears it that can only happen if
Why? A higher ability score means that you get a less expensive item. What is the problem here? Also, a +1 item does change everyone equally. It just changes their ability score equally. Not everyone needs to benefit the same from every bonus.


*Unless your going to make the claim that odd stats are in fact useful in which case you invalidate the claim you need odd stat boosters.
Odd stats are useful. They're just much less useful than they could be. This would even it up a little. Also, if odd stats are useful, then that invalidates your claim that odd stat boosters would be problematic for the game, because it means that a +1 item is good for everyone. The fact of the matter is, the things that this +1 item would do are already being accomplished in minor ways throughout the game. Odd scores are already vaguely useful, and you can already change an odd score into an even score. Odd scored items just accomplish these goals in a better and more meaningful way.

[Psyren]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know what effects depend on ability score rather than ability modifier in 3.5/PF? The ones I know are:

3.5/PF:
- Str Score = Carrying capacity
- All = Feat requirements (specific numbers, usually odd)
- All = Maximum Spell level (score-10, mostly mental)
- Int Score = Max tricks (animals)'
- Con Score = Rounds you can hold your breath (x2)
- Con Score = Rounds you can run

3.5 only:
- Con Score = Max number of Soulmelds (lower of this or class/feat allotment)
- Con Score = Corruption Thresholds (Taint)
- Wis Score = Depravity Thresholds (Taint)

PF only:
- Con Score = negative HP at which you die

[Karnith]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know what effects depend on ability score rather than ability modifier in 3.5/PF?
You can add maximum spell level that a character is able to cast to the list (Int for Wizards, Wis for Clerics and Druids, etc.).

[Gwendol]

Guys, it's not about fairness, it's about design principles. The design principles were created with fairness in mind, but fundamentally it's the principles themselves that are relevant here. The game intentionally sets things up so that ability modifiers are tracked by even scores, while prerequisites and miscellaneous things like carrying capacity are tracked by odd scores. That's what those scores mean. By adding +1 ability bonus items to the game, you're changing what the function of the ability scores themselves is, for basically no reason whatsoever. It would be like making a monster with no hit dice, just bonus HP and bonuses to attack. You could do it, but if you're playing 3.5 you would never choose to because it wouldn't make any damn sense.

The odd ability score bonus item is completely in line with the game rules. Just put in your odd number, square it and multiply by a 1000 gp to figure out the cost. Nowhere does it say the number has to be even.

[Psyren]

You can add maximum spell level that a character is able to cast to the list (Int for Wizards, Wis for Clerics and Druids, etc.).

Thanks, added

[Karnith]

It's niche, but an Animal's Int score determines that max number of tricks that they can learn via Handle Animal.

[Psyren]

It's niche, but an Animal's Int score determines that max number of tricks that they can learn via Handle Animal.

Don't they stop being an animal once they pass Int 3 though? And then they don't need tricks anymore, they can just understand commands/language. (I've always been vague on that actually.)

[Karnith]

Don't they stop being an animal once they pass Int 3 though? And then they don't need tricks anymore, they can just understand commands/language. (I've always been vague on that actually.)
It's unclear exactly what happens to animals once they hit Int 3+ (the intention is likely that they become Magical Beasts), but I was simply referring to Animals with Int 1 being able to learn 3 tricks and Animals with Int 2 being able to learn 6 tricks. So it depends on the actual ability score, not ability modifier, even though there is only a small range in which this matters.

Also, per the Swim skill description, you can hold your breath for a number of rounds equal to twice your Constitution score.

[Psyren]

It's unclear exactly what happens to animals once they hit Int 3+ (the intention is likely that they become Magical Beasts), but I was simply referring to Animals with Int 1 being able to learn 3 tricks and Animals with Int 2 being able to learn 6 tricks. So it depends on the actual ability score, not ability modifier, even though there is a very small variation.

Noted, and added

[Segev]

I'm only going to respond to the claim that "no DM" would permit odd stat-boost items, and that somehow, one that did was demonstrating a massive lack of understanding of the game such that he is not worthy of DMing.

The best DMs I've played with are able to do all sorts of "unfair" or otherwise weird things that nonetheless work out to improve the game as a whole because they do it with specific PCs in mind. The +1 item of Dex might be all the Paladin needs to qualify for Combat Reflexes when the wizard casts Heroics on him, and that could be a tactic they really want to play with. Sure, he could get a +2 item instead, but that's 3x the price and gives him a dex mod higher than his AC would benefit from and he doesn't care about a +1 to his Reflex when, as a Paladin, his Reflex is already second-highest in the party.

He also can allow the purchase of that +5 item of Intelligence for the wizard who, after all his possible boosts, is on an odd number. Did he waste the money he spent on that last wish, or is he allowed a slightly cheaper (and thus more easily replaceable) item? Maybe he doesn't care about the price difference of 11,000 gp. Maybe he does.

There are all sorts of reasons the DM could permit such things. Many of them are solid reasons based on specific games they're running. The idea that some deep, abiding principle of game design requires this orthodox adherence to "only even numbers" for ability bonuses seems rather arrogant, especially when it makes dismissive claims about anybody who dares disagree as being somehow unworthy of being in a position to make decisions for their game.

[TuggyNE]

It's unclear exactly what happens to animals once they hit Int 3+ (the intention is likely that they become Magical Beasts), but I was simply referring to Animals with Int 1 being able to learn 3 tricks and Animals with Int 2 being able to learn 6 tricks. So it depends on the actual ability score, not ability modifier, even though there is only a small range in which this matters.

Note that Int 2 and Int 1 have different ability modifiers.

[Karnith]

Note that Int 2 and Int 1 have different ability modifiers.
While true, that doesn't really have anything to do with the number of tricks an animal can learn. Tricks are explicitly tied to an creature' Int score (1 or 2), not its Int modifier (-5 or -4).
Unless you really want to argue that the unspoken formula is # Tricks=3*(Int Mod+6)
Another thing for the list: you can run for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score.

[Fax Celestis]

Breath holding is tied to your Constitution score, not modifier, as well.

[littlebum2002]

Guys, it's not about fairness, it's about design principles. The design principles were created with fairness in mind, but fundamentally it's the principles themselves that are relevant here. The game intentionally sets things up so that ability modifiers are tracked by even scores, while prerequisites and miscellaneous things like carrying capacity are tracked by odd scores. That's what those scores mean. By adding +1 ability bonus items to the game, you're changing what the function of the ability scores themselves is, for basically no reason whatsoever. It would be like making a monster with no hit dice, just bonus HP and bonuses to attack. You could do it, but if you're playing 3.5 you would never choose to because it wouldn't make any damn sense.


How is it changing the function of the ability score?

If my wisdom score is 21, and I'm not getting another point for 3 more levels, why does it "change the function of the ability score" to allow me to create, using my own item Creation feat, a headband which increases Wis +1 for less cost than a headband which increases it by +2, but which produces literally the exact same effect for me for another 3 levels, by which time my WBL will be much higher than I can afford a better item?


How on earth does that fundamentally change the game? You got me there. How on earth is that similar to removing an entire segment of the game rules like HP? Seriously? Exaggerate much?



And secondly., how does that not make sense? If you were a low level character, you'd have to be a fool NOT to get an item that increases it by an odd number if you have an odd score, since the extra +1 by making it an even score is useless you you for 3 more levels and money is tight as it is on low levels.

[Psyren]

Another thing for the list: you can run for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score.

I'm having trouble finding this, the closest I've come so far is the line where somebody with Con 9 can run for about a minute, but they don't say what happens if your Con is higher or lower than that (or maybe I just missed it.)


Breath holding is tied to your Constitution score, not modifier, as well.

Added

[Karnith]

I'm having trouble finding this, the closest I've come so far is the line where somebody with Con 9 can run for about a minute, but they don't say what happens if your Con is higher or lower than that (or maybe I just missed it.)
I don't know about Pathfinder, but per the 3.5 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#run):

You can run for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score, but after that you must make a DC 10 Constitution check to continue running. You must check again each round in which you continue to run, and the DC of this check increases by 1 for each check you have made. When you fail this check, you must stop running. A character who has run to his limit must rest for 1 minute (10 rounds) before running again. During a rest period, a character can move no faster than a normal move action.
(Emphasis mine)

[Psyren]

I don't know about Pathfinder, but per the 3.5 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#run):

(Emphasis mine)

Perfect, thank you - I was looking under "movement and terrain" (i.e. the segment that covers hustling) and having no success. Added

[Harrow]

I would argue against the point that a +6 item always has to be a +5 item, even when talking about the same bonus. If someone spends character resources (either points in point buy or uses one of their better rolls) towards making +5 items better, then no, +6 items should not be better than +5 items. If it was, why, that would just be bad design.