[PF] Pirate Kingmaker, Stage I [WARNING: Spoilers for Kingmaker, all 6 APs]

[Tovec]

Hopefully I'm in the right area, I think I am.

I've been considering lately about writing up an adventure path similar to Pathfinder's Kingmaker. The difference is that it will be designed to use a randomly generated map and for it to be set at sea. Thus, "Pirate Kingmaker"

But before I start writing up tables and charts and figuring out how to actually do a randomly generated map (I have a number of ideas but nothing solid yet), I figured I should come here and find out what the flaws with the original Kingmaker were.

I've gathered from other sources (here and elsewhere) that many times PCs kingdoms can be abused to just create wealth without ever realistically failing. I've also seen that a lot of times the PCs need motivation to adventure once they have this cool kingdom to run. And finally that at a certain point the kingdom has just become too large for them not to succeed in various checks.

I think a lot of those issues will be solved in my new sea-going format, but obviously not all. So again I want to know what people online have found and hopefully what solutions they have as well.

(And while I'm looking for info on the original module, I don't mind feedback on my pirate idea too, though I'm going to create a new thread when I set to work on that.)

And please go into depth, though spoiler the truly big stuff. I have read all 6 books (in full or in part) so I know what happens.

Thoughts? Anything else from me you need to know? (Though I haven't written anything yet.)

[Lycar]

My friends and I are currently playing the Kingmaker campaign and while we are just at the point where we have been granted the right to set up our own government, looking at the map makes me think that a purely random map generation would be a bad idea.

The way the Kingmaker map is set up is clearly very deliberate and, if I may say so, gently but firmly pushes you into a certain direction for setting up the kingdom. For example, it really is the best choice to declare the trading post to be your first real settlement.

Then you want to develop some agriculture, then the gold mine. And you want to go south to get that bandit fort and make that a thriving trading city.

I can see how you want to avoid this sort of... guiding... with a random setup, but bear in mind that you have to provide the necessary resources to run a viable pirate empire somehow.

Sure, finding a way to keep the one-hex volcano mine hex supplied is a nice challenge, but if it turns out to bee too much of a hassle to be worth it, then it might easily lead to frustration.

So my advice would be to use some random elements as a starting point, but then go and make sure this still works. Maybe draw the hexes from a pre-set pile, Settlers of Cataan-style. That will ensure that all necessary resources will be present, if not necessarily in favourable locations.

Other then that, it sounds like you are up to an awesome game. Good luck. :smallsmile:

[Crustypeanut]

Why use a randomly generated map when you have...

The Shackles!

I'm actually doing something similar soon. Its a sandbox piracy campaign based in an alternate timeline of the Shackles, and the players will have the opportunity to create their own kingdom in the region should they wish to attempt it. They'll have their own island port to start it, if they wish.

I can provide a hexed-out map of the Shackles should you want it - unmarked beyond the hexes (Each made at the 12-mile size as per Kingmaker).

Though.. I'm considering on making it based off islands, rather than hexes. The hexmap was mainly to see how big certain islands were hex-wise. I made sure their starting island is roughly one hex in size.

---------------------

Should you, however, prefer to stick with your own map, I'd highly recommend making the islands based of the hexes - some islands being more than one hex in size, others simply taking up a single hex, with maybe even a group of other smaking up another.

As for ships.. I'm personally going to be using Fire as She Bears for my ship rules, allowing my players to fully design and manage their own ships. Plus it allows me to make an experimental steam-powered ironclad for them to fight (Heeeheee)

[Tovec]

Thanks for the feedback.

Yeah, the reason for the random is because I don't necessarily need to know where everything is to start. As long as the party ends up with a gold mine island I don't need to know where it is for them to start exploring. Setting up reliable trade lines (and probably a navy) will be more important at lower levels. But at sea the goal is to have things spread out more than they would be in simple Kingmaker where you have farms all over the place.

Issues I have already imagined are how kingmaker would interact with things like ships. Where to get reliable supplies is another. But I have good players and I'm sure that won't be too much of an issue once I put some effort into it.

As far as the random generation it would be random until it is established. More of a "I don't know what is out there but there is X" and X can be in essentially any direction unless I pick a hex - then they have a specific map or something (treasure maps - come on!).

It also makes exploring the hex thoroughly more important. Maybe there is a lair of a dangerous monster, an under sea cavern. A coral reef that makes that hex difficult to navigate. Maybe there are tiny islands that are part of something larger. All benefits of the random map - where things can be below the water. What is more is, just like the existing kingmaker system, there might be islands large enough to roll onto other hexes. First roll set of rolls might relate to land, and the size, then what is on it, or other encounters. The idea being that this is an area with a lot of tiny islands or sandbars and you have to figure out which ones are important, thus exploration.

I'm also considering using a modified (dumbed down) version of the Ultimate Campaign kingdom rules, I'm sure my players don't have much interest in the nitty gritty of running a kingdom and are more interested in the interactions, alliances, bribery, hidden treasures, ship battles and so on, that a sea-related game offers. More, I don't want the time to be spent in the phases, that is their lackies jobs. Theirs is to be kickass pirates exploring and conquering the sea - or not.

That is the other thing, while I will give them a charter by the king, I have no expectation that they will automatically set up their own kingdom. I'll nudge them that way (give them the charter to do it) but it is very open seas so they can do what they like. If they want to go rogue they can do that too. So, alliances will probably be necessary, as will setting up fortresses and establishing supply routes - but they can just mess around sailing and exploring and gaining new ships when they can afford it/want to/have to.

The best, or most intriguing thing for me as a DM is how much replay something like this has. After establishing the criteria for my random tables I could run essentially the same adventure over and over without having to worry about the tactical side that you discuss in traditional kingmaker - making sure to start in the trading post/port and expanding in certain ways.

For now though, I was mostly looking for holes in the existing game. I'm familiar (after the research) that people have a problem with how-out-of-the-blue the 6th book and Campaign level BBEG is. I have a couple solutions cribbed together from various sources, but I might end up changing out the nymph all together for something more sea-related. I know that the PCs would benefit more if they knew more plot hooks (one book ahead) than it is currently designed. I also know that I need to be more aware and to incorporate elements from the later books into the earlier adventures. Maybe having the next 'kingdom' over send an envoy of traders or something. More interaction earlier so that they are aware.

I just wanted to know if anyone knew anything else that I was missing. I haven't yet run kingmaker classic but from everything I've read (and from podcasts and gameplays I've listened to/watched) I know that my players are probably not interested in the game as it exists - too much bookkeeping. I'm hoping a lot of those fiddlier details will be cleaned up with my new setup, and several will, but I'm sure that there will also be new holes - agriculture is probably going to be limited, which is fine. All I need is semi-realistic agriculture instead of hexes and hexes worth of it. So trade will be key as well.

It's a proto-idea, any help, ideas, and suggestions are welcome.

@Crustypeanut yes, please link me (or send me or post or whatever) to your stuff. I'll gleam whatever I can.