A challenge (hopefully) for the Playground

[G.Cube]

"Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing."

We all often see posts about Wizard being able to do just about everything better then the classes that were supposedly built for that role, well, how about weapon swinger?

I challenge the playground to be me a Wizard that can swing a weapon better then a fighter of equivelent level, barring that this is too easy too acomplish, we'll up it to Warblade.

The rules are as follows:

Wizard stays in Wizard, Fighter stays in Fighter, no PrCs or multi-classing.

All ACFS, racial substitution levels, etc. are allowed

All books allowed, Dragon Magazine disallowed, Dragon Compendium is allowed.

Polymorph-any-object and other spells of the like are banned.

No summoning other creatures to fight for you, not changing into other creatures, Wizard must stay as base race and actually swinging his weapon of choice himself.

Builds can be at whatever level builder wants, but both classes must be at the same level.

No items or WBL for now, power must come from that classes themselves.

They fight in a flat, bare arena 500 feet long and 400 feet wide, starting 30 feet away from each other.

Anything else obvious that I'm forgetting that would be an auto win for wizard.

I've always love seeing what the Playground comes up with in challenges like these, can't wait to see if Fighter/Warblade has any chance at all!

Thanks in advance for pondering this with me, Playground!

[Lightlawbliss]

naked wizard, be better weapon swinger then naked fighter... I think you forgot something when you said no items.

Also, by nerfing the wizard far more then the fighter you are already proving the point.

[Amphetryon]

I am often intrigued by the number of people who read "capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing" and simultaneously gloss over the word 'often' while reading in an unwritten clause of "regardless of arbitrary situational limiters on a given scenario."

This often leads to folks making claims similar to "The Tier System is wrong, because a naked Wizard who is deprived of his spellbook and tied to a stake cannot defeat a raging Barbarian who has her own magical Greataxe in one-on-one melee combat. Said Wizard would also be unable to complete a gauntlet of 487 consecutive encounters without respite."

Yes, I'm aware that the above is not an exact mirror of the OP's position.

[G.Cube]

naked wizard, be better weapon swinger then naked fighter... I think you forgot something when you said no items.

Also, by nerfing the wizard far more then the fighter you are already proving the point.

I hardly think banning game wrecking spells lik PAO is nerfing the wizard, good sir, also, you are correct, mundane weapons and armour are allowed

[Grod_The_Giant]

No items or WBL for now, power must come from that classes themselves.
So... no weapons or armor for either party?

Level 1. Wizard with Abrupt Jaunt, a decent Con score and Fist of Stone verses a Fighter with Improved Unarmed Strike. Fighter is swinging for 1d4+Strength, Wizard is swinging for 1d6+(1.5*Strength+6) for a minute, and can immediate action teleport his way out of Int mod attacks. Pretty sure the fighter drops first.

[Vedhin]

I hardly think banning game wrecking spells lik PAO is nerfing the wizard, good sir, also, you are correct, mundane weapons and armour are allowed

A Wizard with no spellbook is but a Commoner with a pointy hat, silly clothes, and a good Will save.

[Lightlawbliss]

A Wizard with no spellbook is but a Commoner with a pointy hat, silly clothes, and a good Will save.

there are alt class features that get around the no spellbook. I have seen more then one wizard build that is just fine with no spellbook.

Edit: also, some people would argue a spellbook isn't a magical item.

[Socratov]

A Wizard with no spellbook is but a Commoner with a pointy hat, silly clothes, and a good Will save.

...or he is Rincewind and very good at running away and screaming help in 37 languages :smallamused:

[G.Cube]

When did the Playground get so snarky and literal? By posting those limits I was trying to avoid one sentance posts like "PAO, Wish, etc. wizard wins" I feel like a wizard having a spell book would have been a fairly obvious thing.

[Tvtyrant]

Strength score of 18, power attack, shock trooper, leap attack, combat brute, two handed weapon. Uses the spell Jump to get a +30 to jump at level 9, mirror image to make yourself actually difficult to hit when using shock trooper, and abrupt jaunt to shut down any counterattacks.

There, you are a better charger than a fighter is. Now you are better than him at his best trick.

[Grod_The_Giant]

When did the Playground get so snarky and literal? By posting those limits I was trying to avoid one sentance posts like "PAO, Wish, etc. wizard wins" I feel like a wizard having a spell book would have been a fairly obvious thing.
This is the internet, sir. Snarky literalism is assumed.:smalltongue:

In any case, you should provide a concrete ban-list so this doesn't degrade into "I use X!" "Nuh-uh, X is banned because it's too good!" Perhaps the Test of Spite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113644)ban list is a good start? Same for the item thing-- you should clarify what you mean by "no WBL" so we can figure out if, say, platemail is acceptable for the fighter, or how many extra spells the wizard can buy.

[A.A.King]

I feel like the core of your question is that you want people to point out the great (self)-buff spells.

Also, I don't think that it's really a challenge to create X stronger then Y when there is no Y. If all you want is for someone to make you 1 Wizard and 1 Fighter in such away that the Wizard can swing a sword better then a fighter, then I can just make a really crappy fighter. :smalltongue:

[eggynack]

Your challenge seems to be missing a couple of things, like what the level of the characters is, and what kinda buff rounds exist, and whether all day buffs are available. Also, how broadly is sword swinging being interpreted? If the wizard traps the fighter in black tentacles while under the effects of greater invisibility, and then slowly wheedles away at the fighter a hitpoint at a time, does that constitute being a fighter? What if he skips the tentacles, and just becomes invisible? Also, what's the price limit on the weapon, because as is it looks like they're just going at it with fisticuffs.

Anyways, you should probably be aware at the outset that this challenge is non-indicative of a wizard's melee prowess by its very nature. Wizards are able to emulate fighters, not because they can literally swing a sword, but because they can summon, and become giant monsters. That's kinda the whole point. As long as you are aware of that, this challenge should probably be able to proceed peacefully, at least once you actually set the challenge parameters.

[stack]

Abrupt jaunt, power attack, wraithstrike. Wraithstrike just makes it easy.

[Douglas]

Wraithstrike just makes it easy.
Indeed. Bladeweave, Fist of Stone, Arcane Strike, and the many various other spell-based buffs just add to the ludicrousness.

[Emperor Tippy]

I hardly think banning game wrecking spells lik PAO is nerfing the wizard, good sir, also, you are correct, mundane weapons and armour are allowed

Reducing or removing capabilities is explicitly a nerf, so your sentence makes absolutely no sense.

---
Now let's see.

Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 10/ Archmage 5

Persistent Selective Antimagic Field, Persistent Lesser Ironguard, Mindblank, Persistent Greater Blink, Persistent Superior Invisibility, Persistent Fly.

That should pretty much handle the defensive end.

Now Persistent Wraithstrike, now throw on Persistent Iron Body and then end with Persistent Transformation.

You are now better than a fighter in pretty much every way imaginable.

[nedz]

Level 1: Enlarge Person + Fist of Stone
Should beat a fighter some of the time, with 'bare' fists.

[Spuddles]

A Wizard with no spellbook is but a Commoner with a pointy hat, silly clothes, and a good Will save.

Unless you went loredrake or eidetic.

[A.A.King]

Reducing or removing capabilities is explicitly a nerf, so your sentence makes absolutely no sense.

---
Now let's see.

Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 10/ Archmage 5

Persistent Selective Antimagic Field, Persistent Lesser Ironguard, Mindblank, Persistent Greater Blink, Persistent Superior Invisibility, Persistent Fly.

That should pretty much handle the defensive end.

Now Persistent Wraithstrike, now throw on Persistent Iron Body and then end with Persistent Transformation.

You are now better than a fighter in pretty much every way imaginable.

Tippy, usually I see you ace these kind of things but this time it was clearly stated that the Wizard should stay wizard. No PrC.

[Spuddles]

Abrupt jaunt, power attack, wraithstrike. Wraithstrike just makes it easy.

Greater Mage Armor, shield, and bite of the werebear gives the wizard an AC much, much higher than the fighter. And a persistent wraith strike at levels 15+ is actually pretty good for an 8th lvl spell.

Temp HP from just heart of earth & false life gets you equivalent of d8 HD. Since sources are so open, use faerie mysteries initiate to use int instead of con for HP.

Then necropolitan yourself in a desecrated area. That's 12+ (x-1)d12 + 2x + intx + 1d10+x +2x (max 30), where x is wizard level. So a level 15 wizard has 12+14d12+30+135+1d10+15+30 hp, avg 315 HP.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

They fight in a flat, bare arena 500 feet long and 400 feet wide, starting 30 feet away from each other.

You've completely missed the point of the tier system. It has absolutely nothing to do with class vs class. Each class is in its tier based on its capability of handling encounters in an actual game. Furthermore, with no items and no WBL the Wizard can start out flying 30 feet above the Fighter and never even worry about getting hit.

Let's say you have a Fighter 10 and a Wizard 10, each by himself, and each encounters a CR 10 Gargantuan Monstrous Scorpion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousScorpion.htm). It's a fairly straightforward opponent that may require a bit of thought to defeat. ECL 10 WBL is 49k, which generally would mean no single item above 24.5k.

The Fighter probably has +1 full plate, probably a +1 animated heavy shield, a +1 weapon, and Armbands of Might with a +4 Enhancement bonus to strength added, which leaves him with about 6k to spend on necessary items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851). Let's give him a Third Eye Freedom for 2.6k and Anklet of Translocation for 1.4k so he doesn't automatically lose in the first round. He should also have a cheap Amber Amulet of Vermin for flight, and a Cloak of Resistance +1. The Fighter's AC will be 23, 11 flat-footed, 11 touch. He can have Str 28 with a race like Water Orc, for an attack bonus of +24/+19 with Greater Weapon Focus and Melee Weapon Mastery. With Con 18 and average hp (max at 1st) he has 99 hp.

He'll be using a reach weapon and have Combat Reflexes, plus Power Attack of course. Let's say he's going to metagame and knows its AC is 24, so he Power Attacks for -6 to still have a 50% chance to hit with his iterative attack. Two-handed with Armbands of Might he'll be getting +14 damage, so he'll do [dice]+32 damage per hit. Sadly, the scorpion will almost never miss him. Assuming his first attack misses as often as he gets a critical hit, and his iterative attack misses half the time, and he does 2d6 base damage for an average of 7, that's 39 damage per hit. He has to hit the scorpion four times to kill it. Since even with a reach weapon the scorpion outreaches him, he gets no AoO's, so he takes three rounds to kill it (both attacks hit the first round, iterative misses the second round, he needs one more hit the third round).

The scorpion will almost never miss him, so let's say it also misses as often as it gets a critical hit. It deals an average of 46 damage per round, with poison once per round at a DC of 23. Fighter has a base save of +7, let's say +4 for Con, +1 Resist, total +12, he fails the save half the time. It also has Improved Grab with a grapple check that the fighter almost can't beat, and it constricts for another 17 damage on average.

Let's say the scorpion initiates combat since the Fighter has neither Spot nor Listen, it moves toward him and hits him only once, dealing 17 damage. It also Improved Grabs him, constricting for another 17 damage.
We'll say the Fighter wins initiative. He uses his Anklet of Translocation to escape the grapple and retaliates with a full attack, dealing 78 damage.
The scorpion full attacks, dealing another 46 damage, poisoning him, and would grab him again but he uses the Third Eye: Freedom. The fighter has a 50% chance to make the Fort save, and each failed save reduces his chances of making the next one. I'll be nice and say he makes this save, but fails the next two. The Fighter has taken 80 damage, two more hits and he's dead, but that Fort save was a 50% chance of losing outright.
Fighter full attacks again on the second round, his iterative misses this round so he deals 39 damage. One more hit and the scorpion goes down.
The scorpion full attacks again, and the Fighter goes into the negatives and gets devoured. It's a tragic end, but no great loss.


The Wizard on the other hand has buffed himself with Heart of Air/Water/Earth, Greater Mage Armor, and Overland Flight. The scorpion pounces but he's flying overhead and is out of reach. Answering the challenge the Wizard casts Thunderlance, which with Int 26 from 18 base, +2 race, +2 levels, +4 enhancement gives him +13 to hit and he deals 3d6+12 damage, average 22.5 per hit, so it takes him seven hits to kill it. The Thunderlance gives him a natural reach of 20 feet, so he never gets close enough for the scorpion to attack him. He can use a Lesser Rod of Extend to cast Wraithstrike and guarantee he hits, Thunderlance lasts ten rounds, so if he uses two Extended Wraithstrikes for four guaranteed hits and spends the remaining six rounds hitting on half of his attacks he'll kill it just at the end of the Thunderlance's duration. He's taken no damage and was never at any risk of losing the battle, even restricting himself to melee attacks.