Irreversible Damage

[Ace Nex]

As the title says, is there a way to cause permanent unhealible damage? Say you are fighting a God/Demi-God and want to wound them in a way that they will never recover fully?

[Nettlekid]

Against an evil dragon, the Vassal of Bahamut's Dragonwrack attack deals permanent HP drain that can only be reversed with Wish or Miracle.

Some Epic-level monsters, like the Lavawight, do permanent HP drain as well. No recovery method is stated.

[NichG]

There are a couple epic monsters that can deal this sort of thing, including unhealable Con damage I believe.

Edit: Ninja'd

[Crake]

When you're talking about gods/demigods, really, nothing you do against them is permanent when they have the ability to change reality.

[Story]

Applying certain grafts results in a permanent decrease in HP.

[Kane0]

The closest thing you might get from pure RAW would be somethig like vile damage. Doesnt heal naturally, needs consecration or a caster level check to heal magically.

[ArcturusV]

So the answer would be to have some effect which does Ability Burn (Can't be healed by Magic/Psionics), and apply Vile Metamagic/Vile Attack/Vile SLA ability so that it cannot be naturally healed either. Least I think that works.

[GoblinArchmage]

While they are sleeping, with all of their friends watching, dip their fingers in warm water so that they wet the bed. Not even Wish will cure the damage to their pride.

[Fax Celestis]

So the answer would be to have some effect which does Ability Burn (Can't be healed by Magic/Psionics), and apply Vile Metamagic/Vile Attack/Vile SLA ability so that it cannot be naturally healed either. Least I think that works.

The only source of ability burn is the Body Fuel feat, which burns your own scores. I guess if you could find a deity that had it and then could somehow mind control it or convince it to burn its own stats down to nothing...

[Angelalex242]

Sanctified damage will do the same thing vile damage does to evil creatures, even undead. A vampire who took sanctified damage won't be fast healing the sanctified damage back...ever...

[karkus]

When Asmodeus fell from Celestia and landed in the lower planes, he hit the ground so hard that his body carved the Nine Layers, leaving massive wounds all over his body. The sourcebook that discloses this information went on to say that he is unable to heal these wounds with any resources at his disposal (he has permanent HP damage), but that if he gains more followers on the material plane, he can use their divine energies to heal said wounds.

So, immortal planar beings that sustain massive damage can receive unhealable damage, but god-tier magic can remove this. Hopefully this helps...? :smallconfused:

[ArcturusV]

Well, if you go with fluffery, you can say something like the sword of the elfin goober God can inflict irreversible damage, as he managed to put out another god's eye and create a festering wound that would never heal. Not even suggested (To my knowledge) that that there's some instance where if Orcs rampaged across the world and converted/burninated everything he'd be healed.

[Angelalex242]

Well, it's possible that Gruumsh pulled a Vecna, and the Eye of Gruumsh is actually, well, the put out eye of Gruumsh.

[lsfreak]

While they are sleeping, with all of their friends watching, dip their fingers in warm water so that they wet the bed. Not even Wish will cure the damage to their pride.

Mindrape can!
Also wizard-recommended for aiding social anxieties, survival guilt, PTSD, schizophrenia, addictions, phobias, violent fantasies, sociopathy, and racist grandparents.

EDIT: Woops, forgot the serious part. Doing permanent damage to a god is likely going to be heavily DM-dependent, though the best rules base is likely the epic monsters that have been mentioned. Vile damage is a huge pain for PCs in most campaigns, but is very likely to be trivial for any deities to overcome.

[bekeleven]

Cursed Blade causes a weapon to deal damage that can't be healed until remove curse is cast. Not very relevant for high-level play.

[Thanatosia]

Shapes of Fire, Shape of Void, Lavawrights, and Winterwights are epic undead that have the ability to deal permenant damage to Con (Shape of the Void & Winterwights) or direct HP (Shape of Fire & Lavawights).

It's a bit unclear how permenant the Con damage from the SoV/WW is, it's open to interpretation that it's no more permenant then any other form of 'permenant' stat damage - and the only reason i've seen anyone argueing for it being 'more permenant' and completely unhealable is a RAI comparison the SoF/Lavawight ability, wich are clear cross-elemental counterparts.

The Hp damage that SoFs/Lavawights cause is much more clearly writtain... the hp lost is gone, forever, as if they never were. Not even Wishes or Divine Powers can restore them.

Personally, I'm uncomfortable ever including these monsters in my campaigns - if you do include them, make it count.... forever maiming the PCs in a way that can never be healed should not be a result of random encounter #327.

[Red Fel]

Want to deal permanent damage to a god?

Kill all of their followers. Every single one. Burn every book and inscription featuring their name. Destroy every reference to that deity, in every source that exists.

Next, destroy their portfolio. If their portfolio is the Sun, make every day cloudy. If it's fire, flood the land. If it's Elves, slaughter everything with pointy ears.

Expect to meet with some resistance. Expect to receive an alignment penalty for violently disrupting the balance of the cosmos. Expect to receive a Solar upside the head.

When it's all done, even assuming the deity still exists, they will be a crippled, withered husk of what they were. No worshippers to exalt them and feed them power. No followers to fuel their private afterlife. No mortals even aware of their existence. No aspect of reality over which they may exert dominance. They have nothing.

If they even still exist, it's possible they won't want to anymore.

Enjoy being evil.

[123456789blaaa]

Want to deal permanent damage to a god?

Kill all of their followers. Every single one. Burn every book and inscription featuring their name. Destroy every reference to that deity, in every source that exists.

Next, destroy their portfolio. If their portfolio is the Sun, make every day cloudy. If it's fire, flood the land. If it's Elves, slaughter everything with pointy ears.

Expect to meet with some resistance. Expect to receive an alignment penalty for violently disrupting the balance of the cosmos. Expect to receive a Solar upside the head.

When it's all done, even assuming the deity still exists, they will be a crippled, withered husk of what they were. No worshippers to exalt them and feed them power. No followers to fuel their private afterlife. No mortals even aware of their existence. No aspect of reality over which they may exert dominance. They have nothing.

If they even still exist, it's possible they won't want to anymore.

Enjoy being evil.

What if it's an evil god? Wouldn't that make you good for destroying it?

[Anxe]

Vargouille poison or Clay Golem wounds are two ways I can think of. Course, I'm not sure anything RAW is really going to work against a god. If your DM has said that the god heals all wounds, then that probably means you need to go find the one weapon that can hurt the god in the Dungeon of Peril your DM created.

[Red Fel]

What if it's an evil god? Wouldn't that make you good for destroying it?

To some extent.

But then you realize that, in order to do this, you had to commit genocide, obliterate knowledge, destroy landscapes - basically disrupt the natural order on the Prime Material substantially.

And remember, the ends don't justify the means.

You monster.

[Scow2]

To some extent.

But then you realize that, in order to do this, you had to commit genocide, obliterate knowledge, destroy landscapes - basically disrupt the natural order on the Prime Material substantially.

And remember, the ends don't justify the means.

You monster.Not Commit Genocide - Purge the world of monsters that should not and should never have existed. Not Obliterate Knowledge (Though that's not an Evil act anyway) - Secure the minds of the future against the vices of evil, and cleanse the world of poisoned thoughts.

Disrupt the natural order? Who cares? Nature is Neutral. It is how things are, not how they should be. Spreading peace and love and tolerance disrupts the natural order of things.

Another way to permanently injure a god: Throw a spear at him if your name is Leonidas. Or, be a level 1 bard, worship a petty god, get kidnapped by Epic-Level venerable barbarians to scribe their quest to return Fire to the gods (With interest), level up a few times from leaked experience on the journey, then get to the top, and PUNCH YOUR GOD IN THE FACE for being a petty jerk.

[Red Fel]

Not Commit Genocide - Purge the world of monsters that should not and should never have existed. Not Obliterate Knowledge (Though that's not an Evil act anyway) - Secure the minds of the future against the vices of evil, and cleanse the world of poisoned thoughts.

Disrupt the natural order? Who cares? Nature is Neutral. It is how things are, not how they should be. Spreading peace and love and tolerance disrupts the natural order of things.

Consider this. Gruumsh is a god of Orcs. Not evil Orcs, just Orcs overall.

Want to eliminate his portfolio? You have to get rid of Orcs. All of them. Even the good ones.

Want to eliminate knowledge of his wickedness? You have to destroy all traces of his name from the world. That means destroying every text which mentions him. But, what's this? Corellon Larethian put his eye out. You'll have to destroy texts that mention this, too. Such as holy Elven records. And if the curators of such records try to stop you? They've read them. They have to die too.

Every mention of that deity's name must be obliterated, every creature aware of that deity must be destroyed. Even the good ones.

Like I said. For good or bad, it's an Evil act.

[bekeleven]

To some extent.

But then you realize that, in order to do this, you had to commit genocide, obliterate knowledge, destroy landscapes - basically disrupt the natural order on the Prime Material substantially.

And remember, the ends don't justify the means.

You monster.
Perhaps to destroy an evil god as good, you simply have to proselytize so hard their lose all of their followers.

In other words... the best anti-god weapon is a jumplemancer.

[kaminiwa]

There is literally no such thing as "unhealable, permanent attribute drain", becaaaause....



To restore permanently drained ability score points, increase the Spellcraft DC by +6.


- http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/heal.htm

------------------------------------------------------------

Of course, it doesn't say anything about lost HP, and the Lavawight entry specifically says



Hit points lost to the (Lavawright's blazefire attack) never heal naturally and cannot be magically restored—they are gone for good


- http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/lavawight.htm

[TuggyNE]

Vargouille poison or Clay Golem wounds are two ways I can think of. Course, I'm not sure anything RAW is really going to work against a god. If your DM has said that the god heals all wounds, then that probably means you need to go find the one weapon that can hurt the god in the Dungeon of Peril your DM created.

But only the god of time can heal all wounds!

:smallcool:

*is shot*


Not Commit Genocide - Purge the world of monsters that should not and should never have existed. Not Obliterate Knowledge (Though that's not an Evil act anyway) - Secure the minds of the future against the vices of evil, and cleanse the world of poisoned thoughts.

That sounds suspiciously like dystopian "ends justify the means"/"acceptable targets" rhetoric. :smallsigh:

[karkus]

Snippity snap

Seems like the Heal Seed and the Blazefire rules need to talk things out; it's just one word against the other :smallbiggrin:

[Chronos]

If your target is specifically a god, then you'll need bards. Lots and lots of bards.

See, what you do is spread many heroic accounts of your mighty battle with the deity, where you gave him a hangnail that would not heal on his left second-smallest toe or whatever. Spread it far and wide. Make it such an emplaced legend that nobody can ever think of that god without remembering your fight, and the wound suffered. Make it so that the god takes on the cognomen of "the hangnailed one". Make it such a legend, in short, that for the god to repair that hangnail would be to cease to be what he is. And then, generations hence, you have your victory.

[Cruiser1]

The Hp damage that SoFs/Lavawights cause is much more clearly writtain... the hp lost is gone, forever, as if they never were. Not even Wishes or Divine Powers can restore them. Personally, I'm uncomfortable ever including these monsters in my campaigns - if you do include them, make it count....
Die and get Resurrected or True Resurrected. The new body should not have any negative statuses or conditions of your old body, including the vaguely defined concept of "hp drain". (In other words, you're not attempting magical healing to restore the "hp drain", but rather switching to a new body without it.) Or at least that's how I'd want to rule it if DM'ing an epic game, allowing such monsters to be present and potentially present interesting inconveniences to players, without crippling them forever.

[Psyren]

When it's all done, even assuming the deity still exists, they will be a crippled, withered husk of what they were. No worshippers to exalt them and feed them power. No followers to fuel their private afterlife. No mortals even aware of their existence. No aspect of reality over which they may exert dominance. They have nothing.

It's worth noting that not all settings nor even all gods work like this. This is the case in Faerun since the ToT, but pre-ToT Faerun had no such relationship between gods and their worshipers (which kind of makes sense, since many of them were created when no worshipers yet existed to fuel them.) Ao and Io couldn't care less if they have no worshipers too.

Eberron deities don't seem to care how many worshipers they have either, and Golarion deities also seem to be able to exist independently of worshipers, otherwise deities like Cayden Cailean or Norgorber couldn't have achieved divinity to begin with.