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qwertyu63
2013-11-03, 09:03 AM
"You may treat your creature type as [type here] or your normal type, whichever is more convenient. This includes having whichever traits of those creature types are most convenient."

I have plans to use it with the following types:

Undead.
Outsider.
Construct.
Deathless.
Dragon.
Plant.

How powerful is it with each of these creature types?

Jormengand
2013-11-03, 09:10 AM
"You may treat your creature type as [type here] or your normal type, whichever is more convenient. This includes having whichever traits of those creature types are most convenient."

I have plans to use it with the following types:

Undead.
Outsider.
Construct.
Deathless.
Dragon.
Plant.

How powerful is it with each of these creature types?

Undead: Horrible horrible. Cure/inflict spells, diseases, and so forth won't be at all helpful against you.
Outsider, Dragon: Stops you being a person for things like Hold Person. Outsider allows you to banish yourself for cheesy purposes. Otherwise? Eh... nothing really comes to mind.
Construct: Makes you immune to things. Lots of things. Lots and lots of things. Very horrible, because FOR saves, death magic, NL damage... don't affect you - that's why I've made an entire class where one of its most powerful features is being a construct.
Deathless: About as horrible horrible as undead, but not quite.
Plant: Again, makes you immune to lots of things that you probably shouldn't be.

ArcturusV
2013-11-03, 09:10 AM
Well, the most obvious one that leaps to mind is Immunities. Which is... pretty damned useful.

So considering Undead/Humanoid as a character. You're instantly immune to effects that would normally end your day pretty badly like Command Undead, Turning, Charm Person, etc. You're immune to poison. You're immune to stat drain. Negative energy immune/healed, positive energy healed. Immune to Mind Effecting, able to heal naturally, not destroyed at zero HP so you have some damage cushion

It'd be pretty nifty. At low levels it's immunity to a lot of the "I Win" buttons people depend upon that you normally wouldn't get for another 10 levels.

Amnoriath
2013-11-03, 09:11 AM
If you just had the first sentence this basically gives Alter Self options and the ability to ignore many of the low level save and suck spells. In low level terms it is incredibly powerful but it teaters out in mid to high levels. The second sentence though troubles me in saying "having whichever traits of those creature types are most convenient" this would suggest a full body makeover, changing out immunities at will.

Jormengand
2013-11-03, 09:13 AM
If you just had the first sentence this basically gives Alter Self options and the ability to ignore many of the low level save and suck spells. In low level terms it is incredibly powerful but it teaters out in mid to high levels. The second sentence though troubles me in saying "having whichever traits of those creature types are most convenient" this would suggest a full body makeover, changing out immunities at will.

That's another point: If you take some kind of template/race making you a construct, then take this feature for undead (or vice versa), you have immunity to a LOT of things. Like all mind-affecting abilities, all body-affecting abilities...

Yeah, nasty.

qwertyu63
2013-11-03, 09:19 AM
I should note these things would be showing up in the neighborhood of level 11-15.


Well, the most obvious one that leaps to mind is Immunities. Which is... pretty damned useful.

So considering Undead/Humanoid as a character. You're instantly immune to effects that would normally end your day pretty badly like Command Undead, Turning, Charm Person, etc. You're immune to poison. You're immune to stat drain. Negative energy immune/healed, positive energy healed. Immune to Mind Effecting, able to heal naturally, not destroyed at zero HP so you have some damage cushion

It'd be pretty nifty. At low levels it's immunity to a lot of the "I Win" buttons people depend upon that you normally wouldn't get for another 10 levels.

I knew it would be quite powerful because of the immunities. Undead was the one I was most worried about, due to healing from positive and negative.


If you just had the first sentence this basically gives Alter Self options and the ability to ignore many of the low level save and suck spells. In low level terms it is incredibly powerful but it teaters out in mid to high levels. The second sentence though troubles me in saying "having whichever traits of those creature types are most convenient" this would suggest a full body makeover, changing out immunities at will.

Nothing changes in terms of your outward appearance, but switching in and out the traits of the two creature types is allowed and expected.

Haldir
2013-11-03, 09:23 AM
Not only is it powerful, but if someone had this in a game I was running I'd kill them off just to get rid of such annoying ease of use.

Yitzi
2013-11-03, 09:29 AM
Outsider allows you to banish yourself for cheesy purposes.

Not unless it also changes your home plane...

Jormengand
2013-11-03, 09:48 AM
Not unless it also changes your home plane...

Well, unless it's turning you into an outsider (native) then it does change your home plane.

qwertyu63
2013-11-03, 10:26 AM
Well, unless it's turning you into an outsider (native) then it does change your home plane.

Alright, so outsider doesn't work due to a "404: banish go where?" error.

Zaydos
2013-11-03, 10:34 AM
You can be a native outsider and have a home plane other than the Prime (an aasimar born on Mount Celestia). You can technically be an Outsider without the native subtype and have a home plane as the prime, as in there is no rule against it. The extraplanar subtype (which can be applied to various creatures including humanoids) is the only one which actually deals with what plane you're from.

Strangely enough the monk ability that turns them into an outsider says they become an extraplanar creature but does not site their new home plane which seems to say they are extraplanar to all planes.

As for the rest, Undead is really strong, a lot of blanket immunities with none of the disadvantages, as is Construct (though less so), and Deathless. After that Ooze, and Vermin (mindless trait), then Elemental and Plant.

Outsider is worth noting for Alter Self shenanigans and martial weapons but otherwise is rather meh.

Jormengand
2013-11-03, 10:45 AM
Alright, so outsider doesn't work due to a "404: banish go where?" error.

Banish not found, surely?

qwertyu63
2013-11-03, 10:50 AM
Banish not found, surely?

Actually, I think 404 is the wrong error code. 404 means we can't find what you are looking for. This is we don't know what you are looking for. I am now looking for the right code.

Anyway, after thinking about it, a banish on any other plane would send you to your home plane. So you would be banished to the material plane. Not that big a problem, could be useful in some cases, but meh.

Jormengand
2013-11-03, 10:55 AM
Actually, I think 404 is the wrong error code. 404 means we can't find what you are looking for. This is we don't know what you are looking for. I am now looking for the right code.

420 Method Failure? 442 Unprocessable Entity? 501 Not Implemented?

qwertyu63
2013-11-03, 11:05 AM
420 Method Failure? 442 Unprocessable Entity? 501 Not Implemented?

I think 442 works best.

TuggyNE
2013-11-03, 05:22 PM
"You may treat your creature type as [type here] or your normal type, whichever is more convenient. This includes having whichever traits of those creature types are most convenient."

I have plans to use it with the following types:

Undead.
Outsider.
Construct.
Deathless.
Dragon.
Plant.

How powerful is it with each of these creature types?

Dragon traits aren't particularly useful; they can all be improved upon by construct or undead. Plant gets you immunity to polymorphing, but nothing else unique. Outsider gives you martial weapon proficiency, and undead gives you Cha to Concentration.

Basically, Construct is the best type, traits-wise, with no real comparison. It's the features that are terrible.


Strangely enough the monk ability that turns them into an outsider says they become an extraplanar creature but does not site their new home plane which seems to say they are extraplanar to all planes.

The rest is correct, but as far as I know Perfect Self doesn't mention extraplanar at all, so shouldn't change home plane.

Amechra
2013-11-03, 05:26 PM
Outsiders are naturally native to their source plane. Therefor, there is no need to actually specify that they are native.

The class feature is broken because you can get the benefits of multiple types without any of the drawbacks. Undead and Constructs are broken if their myriad weaknesses aren't in play.

"Oh, you try to Turn me? Doesn't work, not Undead. You try to hit me with a Death spell? Can't, I'm Undead."

qwertyu63
2013-11-03, 05:39 PM
Outsiders are naturally native to their source plane. Therefor, there is no need to actually specify that they are native.

Alright.


The class feature is broken because you can get the benefits of multiple types without any of the drawbacks. Undead and Constructs are broken if their myriad weaknesses aren't in play.

"Oh, you try to Turn me? Doesn't work, not Undead. You try to hit me with a Death spell? Can't, I'm Undead."

...that is exactly what this is supposed to do. Get the benefits without the drawbacks. That is the point of the feature.

Amechra
2013-11-03, 06:10 PM
I'm aware of that.

There isn't a problem with this feature if it combined your type with one other than Undead or Construct.

Combining with either one makes you practically invulnerable for most intents and purposes; heck, either one can make you invincible to damage and most effects that can kill you.

That, my good sir, is broken.

Zaydos
2013-11-03, 06:17 PM
The rest is correct, but as far as I know Perfect Self doesn't mention extraplanar at all, so shouldn't change home plane.

That's what I thought but I checked my PHB and...


She is forevermore treated as an outsider (an extraplanar
creature) rather than as a humanoid for the purpose of spells and magical effects.

Which just made me scratch my head because it doesn't say anything else about being extraplanar except in defining outsider.

Just to Browse
2013-11-03, 06:18 PM
Not broken at all. It's a host of immunities, which are awesome and useful at higher levels. This could scale in multiple types over level advancement.

Also, bonus HP for larger sizes :D

Amechra
2013-11-03, 06:24 PM
The thing is, it hands you a few immunities that are only balanced because you also have the drawbacks of the type they belong to.

Immunity to roughly one-third of all effects that have saves, as well as potential immunity to damage...

This is the kind of feature that hits TO without even trying.

Demidos
2013-11-03, 06:24 PM
I'm aware of that.

There isn't a problem with this feature if it combined your type with one other than Undead or Construct.

Combining with either one makes you practically invulnerable for most intents and purposes; heck, either one can make you invincible to damage and most effects that can kill you.

That, my good sir, is broken.

Invincible to damage? :smallconfused: I don't follow...

TuggyNE
2013-11-03, 06:26 PM
That's what I thought but I checked my PHB and...



Which just made me scratch my head because it doesn't say anything else about being extraplanar except in defining outsider.

I very strongly suspect that got errata'd, since it's not in the SRD.

Amechra
2013-11-03, 06:40 PM
All you need to do is grab Regeneration from somewhere, which isn't that hard.

Regeneration makes all damage except for certain types Nonlethal. You can use the Undead type to be immune to Nonlethal damage.

If you pick up, say, the Half-Troll template, you have Regeneration bypassed by fire and acid, both of which are energy damage, and thus easy to become specifically immune to.

Normally, Undead creatures can't have Regeneration because they don't have a Constitution modifier; but you do.

There is only one way to pull of this form of damage immunity by RAW, and it requires sourcebook diving and the 6th/7th level (can't remember exactly) of a meh PrC.

TuggyNE
2013-11-03, 07:25 PM
There is only one way to pull of this form of damage immunity by RAW, and it requires sourcebook diving and the 6th/7th level (can't remember exactly) of a meh PrC.

More ways than that, surely. You could always go Illithid Savant, for one, or Manipulate Form.

Anyway, given that this really only obviates one class's specific feature in the combo, I'm not sure it's the most broken thing ever. Or, at any rate, its brokenness is not chiefly because of damage immunity cheese.

Just to Browse
2013-11-03, 09:13 PM
Regeneration has always been broken, this is not a new trick. By Libris Mortis RAW you can take a 1-level dip in a racial undead class and do the exact same thing ten levels earlier.

The great thing about this is the fortitude and mind-affecting immunities, but immunities are not great unless they're paired with some offensive capability. You can be as tanky as you want, but unless you have strong damage or mobility, your tankiness is not useful. Being immune to all damage is a fine high-level ability if it comes with appropriate riders.

Especially considering that this is a class feature in a vacuum (no tradeoffs, no chassis, no level restriction, no entry requirements if its a PrC), Amechra's worries are totally unfounded. You could write a base class that grants construct when you want it at level 10 and it wouldn't even be broken.

Tanuki Tales
2013-11-03, 09:31 PM
Half-Troll doesn't give Regeneration, by the by.

Network
2013-11-03, 09:40 PM
There is only one way to pull of this form of damage immunity by RAW, and it requires sourcebook diving and the 6th/7th level (can't remember exactly) of a meh PrC.
Well, there's also the gheden template...

Amechra
2013-11-03, 10:02 PM
Once you are undead, you lose Regeneration automatically, because you lost your Con score.

And the thing is, I'm not saying that it is broken because it takes the place of a specific class in a combo; the combo itself is broken, and this makes it rather easy to pull off.

And the thing is... the other ways to pull it off? Aren't as wide and useful as this feature.

If you just cherry-pick the good parts of being Undead, you get, among other things:
- Immunity to Death Effects (merely nice).
- Immunity to Poison, Disease, nonlethal damage, criticals, precision damage, and a bunch of conditions (a mess of really nice immunities)
- Heal from positive and negative energy, and negative levels give you bonuses instead of penalties (still nice)
- Immunity to any effect that forces a Fortitude save that doesn't also work on objects. (A really, really wide defense. And for those effects that do get through, your Fortitude save modifier doesn't suck.)
- Availability of a few amazing buffs that only work on Undead. (If you go the Construct route, there are some really, really good spells that enhance Constructs that are actually a good deal better if you aren't a Construct. They are in Magic of Eberron, iirc.)
- You don't need to eat, sleep, breath, or drink. (This is pretty standard, except that not needing to breath is pretty good.)

Normally, the fact that you are prancing around with such a comprehensive suite of immunities is to make up for the fact that you lack a Con score, which is a big thing (it can more than halve your HP, for one thing, and your Fort save modifier sucks). They also are there to make up for Undead having some fairly massive weaknesses (turning and rebuking come to mind; there are also a mess of spells and items that are geared towards destroying undead, either literally or figuratively).

The fact is, that class feature is actually something like 3 or 4 more balanced class features in one.

UmpteenthDoctor
2013-11-03, 10:54 PM
Construct seems to be the best choice from what I can see, the immunities are pretty dang awesome.

I am afraid I don't know the class feature, is this a homebrew class?

Just to Browse
2013-11-03, 10:59 PM
The "easy" combo is "an incredibly abusable regional feat from Dragon magazine using a locked level 1 human feat selection"... so not really at all.

And those benefits of being undead... those seem on-par with what a mid- to high-level antimage should be hulking around in. The lack of constitution score and turnability actually make undead unplayable because hard counters and low HP is so incredibly bad for PCs past level 10.

Amechra
2013-11-04, 12:45 AM
There are other ways to get regeneration. There is a 5th level spell from Magic of Faerun, among other things. The "easy" combo is not taken into account due to it being from a source most people don't allow in the first place.

Anyway, I'm out.

TuggyNE
2013-11-04, 12:50 AM
And the thing is... the other ways to pull it off? Aren't as wide and useful as this feature.

If you just cherry-pick the good parts of being Undead, you get, among other things:
- Immunity to Death Effects (merely nice).
- Immunity to Poison, Disease, nonlethal damage, criticals, precision damage, and a bunch of conditions (a mess of really nice immunities)
- Heal from positive and negative energy, and negative levels give you bonuses instead of penalties (still nice)
- Immunity to any effect that forces a Fortitude save that doesn't also work on objects. (A really, really wide defense. And for those effects that do get through, your Fortitude save modifier doesn't suck.)
- Availability of a few amazing buffs that only work on Undead. (If you go the Construct route, there are some really, really good spells that enhance Constructs that are actually a good deal better if you aren't a Construct. They are in Magic of Eberron, iirc.)
- You don't need to eat, sleep, breath, or drink. (This is pretty standard, except that not needing to breath is pretty good.)

Normally, the fact that you are prancing around with such a comprehensive suite of immunities is to make up for the fact that you lack a Con score, which is a big thing (it can more than halve your HP, for one thing, and your Fort save modifier sucks). They also are there to make up for Undead having some fairly massive weaknesses (turning and rebuking come to mind; there are also a mess of spells and items that are geared towards destroying undead, either literally or figuratively).

The fact is, that class feature is actually something like 3 or 4 more balanced class features in one.

Other than the over-focus on damage immunity, this is a pretty good analysis. It might be best to set up the class feature initially so you can replace/add up to say 2 traits when you first receive it, then up to 5 at a later level, and then all of them later yet. (Just for example.)

icefractal
2013-11-04, 05:53 PM
As long as this is coming in at a mid-high level, I think it's fine (could be lower for Dragon/Outsider, actually). I mean, don't get me wrong, it's very nice. But it's not "9th level spells" powerful, or even "7th level spells" powerful.

Obviously, it depends what kind of chassis this is in though. If the class is something there's no cost to taking, then this could be too much.

Yitzi
2013-11-04, 11:32 PM
You can be as tanky as you want, but unless you have strong damage or mobility, your tankiness is not useful.

Of course it is, as long as the entire party has it (or you have some sort of taunt mechanic to force the enemy to focus fire on you.) Remember, victory in combat doesn't go to the side that can kill the fastest, but rather the side that can kill the other side the fastest (equivalently, the side that can last the longest against the other side).

Just to Browse
2013-11-05, 03:00 AM
You're right, I kind of looped taunt into mobility in my head. That should be a separate category.

Yitzi
2013-11-05, 09:46 AM
You're right, I kind of looped taunt into mobility in my head. That should be a separate category.

And even without taunt...if everyone in the party is defensively oriented, that works too.

Defense is just as strong as offense; it's just that having some party members be defensive while others are offensive allows a smart enemy to focus on the glass cannons first (unless there's some sort of taunt mechanic.)

~Corvus~
2013-11-05, 02:49 PM
I have some thoughts on each of these entries. I'm looking at the mixing of Outsider and Construct.

There's a strange category here of being considered an "outsider" when you're also at the same time not. An Outsider (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_outsidertype&alpha=), by the word, means that its essence is composed of some other part of another plane. And then again, it's not at the same time. It's a negated and sustained binary definition. This is rather troubling.

It gets worse, though: "Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature -- its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be."

This would have to be rectified if paired with another type thus (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_nativesubtype&alpha=N): "These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype's name). Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep."

From the construct side, it might also have to gain the Living Construct (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_livingconstructsubtype&alpha=L) subtype for its identity as a construct to be congruent, which gives conflicting informaiton.

If this race doesn't have Class levels, it's basically like Gestalting two racial types together. This would also mean, by your definitions, racial HD and benefits would also be gestalted. Outsider and Construct are great ones to pair together: They get all good saves, d12 HD, 8+Int skills, full BAB, weapon prof. with Martial and Simple weapons, potential armor profs, don't need to eat, sleep, or breathe. To top it all off, they have a whole host of cross-protecting immunities because they're treated as if they have neither an Int score nor a Con score even though they actually do.

But wait, hang on, constructs don't have a soul? Or is its soul tied to its body, and thus it's destroyed when it reaches -10 and it doesn't need to be Native Outsider type, thus making it a Living Outsider Construct?

At worst, this is very very confusing and I haven't seen this done before. At best, its incredibly potent, and I still haven't seen this done before and KUDOS.

Alex12
2013-11-05, 04:32 PM
I've actually considered houseruling a racial ability like this for Elans, between Aberration and Humanoid (human).

Undead or Construct would be amazing (for comparison, the Necropolitan template, which just straight-up turns you Undead, is functionally the same thing as LA+1, and comes with the downsides of undeath)

Network
2013-11-05, 05:04 PM
If this race doesn't have Class levels, it's basically like Gestalting two racial types together. This would also mean, by your definitions, racial HD and benefits would also be gestalted. Outsider and Construct are great ones to pair together: They get all good saves, d12 HD, 8+Int skills, full BAB, weapon prof. with Martial and Simple weapons, potential armor profs, don't need to eat, sleep, or breathe. To top it all off, they have a whole host of cross-protecting immunities because they're treated as if they have neither an Int score nor a Con score even though they actually do.

But wait, hang on, constructs don't have a soul? Or is its soul tied to its body, and thus it's destroyed when it reaches -10 and it doesn't need to be Native Outsider type, thus making it a Living Outsider Construct?
First, it would be d10 Hit Dices, because that's what Constructs get (Outsiders get d8 Hit Dices). Second, mindless is not a trait of the Construct type like it is of the Ooze and Vermin types. Thus, you would not get it (and don't need to, since the only beneficial side of the mindless trait is immunity to mind-affecting effects, and with the exception of Living Constructs, all Constructs have this immunity as a trait). Finally, no, Constructs don't have a soul, because they're not alive (except Living Constructs, and that's because they are).

That basically sums it all up.

TuggyNE
2013-11-05, 05:19 PM
If this race doesn't have Class levels, it's basically like Gestalting two racial types together.

It's a class feature, not a racial ability, so it shouldn't suffer that problem.

~Corvus~
2013-11-05, 05:28 PM
First, it would be d10 Hit Dices, because that's what Constructs get (Outsiders get d8 Hit Dices). Second, mindless is not a trait of the Construct type like it is of the Ooze and Vermin types. Thus, you would not get it (and don't need to, since the only beneficial side of the mindless trait is immunity to mind-affecting effects, and with the exception of Living Constructs, all Constructs have this immunity as a trait). Finally, no, Constructs don't have a soul, because they're not alive (except Living Constructs, and that's because they are).

That basically sums it all up.

gah! I changed from Undead to Construct halfway through :smallredface: Still, OUTSIDERS have a soul, it's just that their soul is linked to their own body.


It's a class feature, not a racial ability, so it shouldn't suffer that problem.

Goodness. I meant racial class features....Again, this gives the abilities of either racial entry whenever beneficial, so it would be like gestalting two racial creature types. If it would gain *any* racial HD, those would basically be gestalted. Okay, let's take the benefit of the doubt here! Think of the case for, say, a Hound Archon Construct Cleric. It has Racial HD AS WELL AS standard class levels.

TuggyNE
2013-11-05, 06:04 PM
Goodness. I meant racial class features....Again, this gives the abilities of either racial entry whenever beneficial, so it would be like gestalting two racial creature types. If it would gain *any* racial HD, those would basically be gestalted. Okay, let's take the benefit of the doubt here! Think of the case for, say, a Hound Archon Construct Cleric. It has Racial HD AS WELL AS standard class levels.

Well, the wording here just gives type traits, not HD features, so it wouldn't change anything on the racial HD. :smallwink: