so i made a paladin

[Askeladd]

people say it was underpowered, so i made one LOL cus, **** it i like that fluff.. then i soloed a boss LOLOLOLOL.
human (50 year old man)
lvl 12
14 str
11 dex
13 con
15 int
14 wis
24 cha

cloak of charisma +4

feats
mounted combat
power attack
divine might,
divine shield
improved toughness
shield specialization heavy

(next feat will be shield ward)

combat strategy, full plate +2
heavy steel shield +1
ac at 24, divine shield ac now at 31
our artificer improves my armor, ac becomes 36
all my saves are at least above 10
i can lay on hands 84 hp
i use divine sacrifice while on my mount, and do a full attack using divine sacrifice on both myself and my mount, as well as divine might. i only have a +1 longsword and +1 lance
so in a round i have a potential 3d8+30 +5d6 and 3d6 +5d6 of damage doing a full attack and having my mount attack as well not counting my mounts strength bonuses, share spell on mounts = op

i wouldve gone spirited charge, if my dm didnt rule for static (numerical) damage to not get multiplied on crits or whenever damage is multiplied.. so instead of 1d8 +10 (or +22 if smite evil) x3 its just 1d8x3 +10 (or22)
at lvl 15 il be taking shield ward, and at lvl 18 im thinking on getting combat expertise, that way, im seriously a pretty resilient character. all stat boosts go to charisma, since its the stat i rely on most. bulls strength and eagles splendor whenever its nice and convenient, and a bit of divine favor makes it alright to use my power attack a bit ;P

so why post this? cus i can, and still want opinions and even suggestions. the dm is a little strict on what books i can use, so fun stuff like tome of battle and ect. are kinda out of the question. dm has a soft spot for certain people which kinda sucks for me cus i dont particularly qualify, but all is well, theres no direct dislike towards me which im cool with. so far my party consists of
my roomate who is a shifter artificer cus he could be
the cleric, who only likes using summon monster more than healing at all
another cleric, who acts more like a fighter/spellcaster
and the crystal half dragon, psionic warrior/wilder.... thing... well that escelated quickly. all i know is... talking about heavy damage dealers, that half dragon is noted as the strongest in the party,.. ac almost as high as mine, but a bit less hp,ac and saves arent as good, but as far as combat goes, a breath weapon that stuns for 1d4 rounds and the breath weapon resets in.. 1d4 rounds lol.

[Flickerdart]

Your potential damage (assuming that all of your attacks with awful accuracy land) is really low for 15th level, and you have to burn HP and spells (neither of which are bountiful for you) just to keep it up.

There are good paladin builds. This is not one of them.

[ArqArturo]

I'd say move the 15 from Int to Str.

[bekeleven]

I'd say move the 15 from Int to Str.

Starting stats were 16 15 14 14 13 12, which I assume were rolled. A 15 began in Str and a 14 began in int.

This adds up to 39 point buy, another reason to assume rolling.

[Angelalex242]

You've discovered the same basic strategy I use...playing the Paladin's smite for a 'single stroke battle.' Put all the firepower you can into one blow, and make sure it doesn't miss. Bonus points if you've got bless weapon to autoconfirm critical threats. More bonus points if you use a Falchion and Power attack along with bless weapon. When you get to level 9, even more bonus points for the improved critical feat on that Falchion. (15-20 autoconfirming crits (Vs. evil, but you're usually smiting evil anyway)=yum.)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Shield Specialization isn't helping much-- I'd drop it. Instead, take Serenity (Dragon Compendium)-- it makes all your paladin abilities work off Wisdom, reducing MAD. Since Wisdom will now be super-high instead of Charisma, Battle Blessing (Complete Champion) will let you cast those bonus spells as swift actions.

[Captnq]

Suggestions:

1) The Shift Key. It will allow you to make capital letters.
2) Why do you have power attack, yet don't use two handed weapons?
3) Animate (+2 ASA) that shield.
4) Check out The Weapon Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9053.msg183871#msg183871). Ask your DM to tell you what he will allow and what he won't.
5) Positoxins and Ravages get them.
6) Wand chambers
7) Old Chambers
8) Weapon capsule retainers.
9) Augment Crystals. Many
10) More weapons. Knee blades. Foot Blades. Elbow Blades. Armor Razor, Armor spikes, Helmet spike. You can never have too many weapons.
11) Beetle Buckler 6,600 gp and auto deflect arrows. You can put an extra shield augment crystal on it.
12) Extradimensional Storage. Handy Haversack.
13) Check out The Spell Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5044.msg72093#msg72093). Get the complete list of every Paladin Spell. give it to your DM. ask him to cross off what he won't allow. Look at what is left.
14) I see no ranged weapon. Your strength sucks. Crossbow, Grappling. and a Heavy one. Underslung Crossbow Bayonet, sword for both. Get the Heavy Crossbow with an oil chamber and weapon capsule retainer. In a pinch you can use a crossbow bayonet as a lance when charging. In theory you can fire a crossbow bolt for 1d10+4d6 fire damage once without having to spend forever reloading. Might make a difference. Rather cheap to buy, all the same, especially at your WBL.

Anyrate. Good luck.

[Captnq]

Oh, you have an artificer. Cool

Your shield: It sucks.

Have him make a heavy steel version of the Grasping Shield. The Grasping shield is a light steel shield that allows you to disarm for a free action, although considering it was a 3.0 item, I think it might be a swift action. Run it by the DM. Crafting rolls with more then likely be involved.

Also, Put razors on it. You can have razors and grasping on the same shield. Put on oil chambers so you can set your shield on FIRE. Burning shields are cool.

Sanctify your shield. You might as well make it a holy item so you don't have to worry about what you are holding when you cast spells.

And again, ANIMATE IT. Then you can buy a two handed weapon and REALLY deal out the damage when you power attack

[Captnq]

You know what, I take it back.

Just noticed your Dex is in the toilet.

Buy a Hide Shield from Sandstorm. Run you 30 gp. gives you AC 3, -3 ACP, the max dex and ACF won't bother you. You can use it to give yourself total cover, and it isn't actually listed as an exotic shield, so you won't need to spend a feat on it. It's like a tower shield that doesn't suck. So then you can enchant THAT and you'll get more AC, have the option to take total cover when you want. I wouldn't set that on fire, mind you. Hide does not like being set on fire.

Heck, get both. One for when you are mounted, one for when you are in a dungeon. It's 30 gp and it'll have the same AC as your current shield AND it'll give you total cover when you need it and it'll work in an AMF.

[Askeladd]

Suggestions:

1) The Shift Key. It will allow you to make capital letters.
2) Why do you have power attack, yet don't use two handed weapons?
3) Animate (+2 ASA) that shield.
4) Check out The Weapon Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9053.msg183871#msg183871). Ask your DM to tell you what he will allow and what he won't.
5) Positoxins and Ravages get them.
6) Wand chambers
7) Old Chambers
8) Weapon capsule retainers.
9) Augment Crystals. Many
10) More weapons. Knee blades. Foot Blades. Elbow Blades. Armor Razor, Armor spikes, Helmet spike. You can never have too many weapons.
11) Beetle Buckler 6,600 gp and auto deflect arrows. You can put an extra shield augment crystal on it.
12) Extradimensional Storage. Handy Haversack.
13) Check out The Spell Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5044.msg72093#msg72093). Get the complete list of every Paladin Spell. give it to your DM. ask him to cross off what he won't allow. Look at what is left.
14) I see no ranged weapon. Your strength sucks. Crossbow, Grappling. and a Heavy one. Underslung Crossbow Bayonet, sword for both. Get the Heavy Crossbow with an oil chamber and weapon capsule retainer. In a pinch you can use a crossbow bayonet as a lance when charging. In theory you can fire a crossbow bolt for 1d10+4d6 fire damage once without having to spend forever reloading. Might make a difference. Rather cheap to buy, all the same, especially at your WBL.

Anyrate. Good luck.

1.no i dont like capital letters, too bad for you
2. its required for divine might, look at my charisma, add the bonus to damage, add power attack, why use a 2 handed weapon when my shield gives me +9 ac
3.when i can, ^ that will be resolved
4. im limited to just core, and a few completes, like warrior and divine, and scoundrel
5. explain those to me.
6.and those
7. and these
8. what? like add weapons on to my weapons?
9 how would power crystals help, and what book are those in?
10.how would that help?
11.sounds awesome, where do i get that.
12. you mean like a bag of holding
13. as long as their in the books i mentioned i can use them.
14.i dont need strength, as for the divine might. thus my damage comes from charisma, my self healing, from charisma, my ac, charisma, my saves, charisma, stop thinking only about damage when im a ****ing tank LOL. strategy, do enough damage without taking damage, or healing that damage up, DONE
15. why would i get a crossbow, if i have no dex???? the ****, i know bab is awesome. lol..., my next move is try to get a flying mount, why get ranged weapons when my mounts move at 70 per round, the sorcerer loves to cast haste, and gives me the chance to just close in, and mounted charge with my +1 lance and smite evil, then full attack with divine might and power attack.

[Askeladd]

Shield Specialization isn't helping much-- I'd drop it. Instead, take Serenity (Dragon Compendium)-- it makes all your paladin abilities work off Wisdom, reducing MAD. Since Wisdom will now be super-high instead of Charisma, Battle Blessing (Complete Champion) will let you cast those bonus spells as swift actions.
i need it for shield ward, shield ac to touch ac, making my touch ac 20+, you know, usefull for when those magic users wanna autohit me with something nasty., and i cant use complete champion, or the dragon compendium

[Askeladd]

Your potential damage (assuming that all of your attacks with awful accuracy land) is really low for 15th level, and you have to burn HP and spells (neither of which are bountiful for you) just to keep it up.

There are good paladin builds. This is not one of them.

show me them, id love to find a reference, what should my damage output be for lvl 15 as the groups tank, with the limited books, core, complete scoundrel complete warrior, complete divine, and possibly complete arcane.
i mean how else do you do more damage as a paladin, while retaining resilience(you know, being able to not die) and not wasting 1000k gold on items that you cannot just obtain randomly. right now with the equipment i have mentioned i only have a possibly 10k waiting for me, next session.
instead of just saying the build sucks, show me.

[Askeladd]

Starting stats were 16 15 14 14 13 12, which I assume were rolled. A 15 began in Str and a 14 began in int.

This adds up to 39 point buy, another reason to assume rolling.

there was a 18, which was put on cha, +1 to int wis and cha, -1 to dex str and dex. one stat boost went to str, and the rest to cha,

[FrznTear]

i wouldve gone spirited charge, if my dm didnt rule for static (numerical) damage to not get multiplied on crits or whenever damage is multiplied.. so instead of 1d8 +10 (or +22 if smite evil) x3 its just 1d8x3 +10 (or22)



That is really lame, I was about to recommend that you cast Rhino's Rush when you charge but you won't get much out of it.

One thing I noticed is that your build doesn't really utilize swift actions and has little utility outside of attacking and tanking. If you are going for the one big strike a cheap item to enhance this is the Belt of one Mighty blow from page 74 of the magic item compendium for only 1,500 gp. You can use it once a day to get a bonus to damage on your next melee attack. It deals more damage when wielding a weapon two handed so I strongly recommend getting an animated shield so you can use your lance two-handed which also helps when using power attack.

Ask if you can get a custom +1 Constitution item. The formula for such is (n^2)*1000 where n is the bonus to a stat so it would only cost 1000! This would bump your con up from 13 to 14 which is a pretty big deal. Con items are usually on the belt slot so if you want to get this and the One mighty blow on the belt it would cost 3,000. When putting multiple enchantments on the same item you multiply the cheaper one by 1.5. In this case it is better than paying double on the con item for having it on an inappropriate slot.

Rules for this are found here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm

If ability damage and status conditions are a problem (which they shouldn't be with two clerics in the party) CADUCEUS BRACERS from page 84 of MIC only cost 2000 and lets you use some of you lay on hands pool to remove some status conditions and heal ability damage.

Otherwise for your arm slot another cheap option are Great Reach Bracers from page 108 of MIC which let you 3 times per day increase your reach by 10ft, helpful if you can't quite reach a target or don't want to eat an opportunity attack from something with reach. These are also only 2000 gp.

But yeah, there are a lot of cheap magic items that you should look into getting to increase what your options are.

[Vhaidara]

show me them, id love to find a reference, what should my damage output be for lvl 15 as the groups tank, with the limited books, core, complete scoundrel complete warrior, complete divine, and possibly complete arcane.
i mean how else do you do more damage as a paladin, while retaining resilience(you know, being able to not die) and not wasting 1000k gold on items that you cannot just obtain randomly. right now with the equipment i have mentioned i only have a possibly 10k waiting for me, next session.
instead of just saying the build sucks, show me.

I think I see the problem with the responses. The OP doesn't mention about your limited books, which is a VERY important thing on these forums (especially to the optimizers). It lets them know what they can work with to help you.

[Flickerdart]

I think I see the problem with the responses. The OP doesn't mention about your limited books, which is a VERY important thing on these forums (especially to the optimizers). It lets them know what they can work with to help you.
Even in core only, that's not a very good build. His average full attack damage if all attacks land is only 89 (including his mount's attacks even), and he needs to burn spell slots and TUs just to maintain it at that level. Spell slots that he has practically none of - a 12th level paladin with 14 Wisdom can cast divine sacrifice twice a day. Oh yeah, and it takes a standard action to cast the spell (and a standard action to activate Divine Shield, meaning this guy is only combat-ready by round 3). His to-hit, judging from the stats he's posted, is +15 (12 BAB, +2 Str, +1 weapon) which is downright abysmal for a 12th level character: he has a 50% chance of hitting a CR11 Cloud Giant on his first attack, and the chances swan dive from there. He has a 40% chance of hitting a CR12 Leonal or Kolyarut with that first attack. Oh, and can't forget DR, which is prevalent at these levels, and which completely shuts down a build relying on multiple weak attacks.

Ignoring the mount, since we don't know what it is and any paladin can just get the same one, we get this attack routine:
+15 1d8+10+5d6 (avg. 32)
+10 1d8+10 (avg. 14.5)
+5 1d8+10 (avg. 14.5)

Against an average CR12 AC of 24 (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?138024-Average-AC-and-Hp-of-Core-monsters-by-CR), these attacks hit on a 9 (60% chance), on a 14 (40% chance) and on a 19 (10% chance). Thus, the average damage output of these attacks is, respectively, 19.2, 5.8, and 1.9. On average, against level-appropriate threats with no DR, this character deals 26.9 damage.

A core-only level 12 human paladin can easily outstrip him. Assuming 32PB, we can have 16 STR, 10 DEX, 14 CON, 10 INT, 14 WIS, and 14 CHA. His effective STR after two stat boosts and a +4 item is 22.

This paladin picks up a +1 greatsword. His to-hit is 12+6+1, or +19. It's still rubbish. Divine favor, since we have two buff rounds apparently, brings that up to +21. Because we have nothing to do with our feats, let's pick up Weapon Focus (Greatsword) to make that +22.

So this guy has the following attack routine:
+22 2d6+12 (avg. 19)
+17 2d6+12 (avg. 19)
+12 2d6+12 (avg. 19)

Against the average AC of 24, he hits on a 2 for his first attack (95% chance), on a 7 for his second (70% chance), and on a 12 for his third (45%). His average damage per round against a level-appropriate enemy is thus 18.05+13.3+8.55, a total of 39.9 damage per round. He does 13 damage per round more than the OP's build, core only, with only one feat and one spell, and without killing himself every time he attacks.

[(Un)Inspired]

1.no i dont like capital letters, too bad for you


Why would you be so rude to someone that is offering to help you?

[Askeladd]

Why would you be so rude to someone that is offering to help you?
why tell me to use capitals? thats my response to that specific thing,

[Askeladd]

Even in core only, that's not a very good build. His average full attack damage if all attacks land is only 89 (including his mount's attacks even), and he needs to burn spell slots and TUs just to maintain it at that level. Spell slots that he has practically none of - a 12th level paladin with 14 Wisdom can cast divine sacrifice twice a day. Oh yeah, and it takes a standard action to cast the spell (and a standard action to activate Divine Shield, meaning this guy is only combat-ready by round 3). His to-hit, judging from the stats he's posted, is +15 (12 BAB, +2 Str, +1 weapon) which is downright abysmal for a 12th level character: he has a 50% chance of hitting a CR11 Cloud Giant on his first attack, and the chances swan dive from there. He has a 40% chance of hitting a CR12 Leonal or Kolyarut with that first attack. Oh, and can't forget DR, which is prevalent at these levels, and which completely shuts down a build relying on multiple weak attacks.

Ignoring the mount, since we don't know what it is and any paladin can just get the same one, we get this attack routine:
+15 1d8+10+5d6 (avg. 32)
+10 1d8+10 (avg. 14.5)
+5 1d8+10 (avg. 14.5)

Against an average CR12 AC of 24 (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?138024-Average-AC-and-Hp-of-Core-monsters-by-CR), these attacks hit on a 9 (60% chance), on a 14 (40% chance) and on a 19 (10% chance). Thus, the average damage output of these attacks is, respectively, 19.2, 5.8, and 1.9. On average, against level-appropriate threats with no DR, this character deals 26.9 damage.

A core-only level 12 human paladin can easily outstrip him. Assuming 32PB, we can have 16 STR, 10 DEX, 14 CON, 10 INT, 14 WIS, and 14 CHA. His effective STR after two stat boosts and a +4 item is 22.

This paladin picks up a +1 greatsword. His to-hit is 12+6+1, or +19. It's still rubbish. Divine favor, since we have two buff rounds apparently, brings that up to +21. Because we have nothing to do with our feats, let's pick up Weapon Focus (Greatsword) to make that +22.

So this guy has the following attack routine:
+22 2d6+12 (avg. 19)
+17 2d6+12 (avg. 19)
+12 2d6+12 (avg. 19)

Against the average AC of 24, he hits on a 2 for his first attack (95% chance), on a 7 for his second (70% chance), and on a 12 for his third (45%). His average damage per round against a level-appropriate enemy is thus 18.05+13.3+8.55, a total of 39.9 damage per round. He does 13 damage per round more than the OP's build, core only, with only one feat and one spell, and without killing himself every time he attacks.

if my paladin faught that paladin, my paladin would win, my ac would be at a 35 and i could instantly heal 84 hp while the other cannot, if a wizard faught that paladin, the reflex saves would be so low, fireballs would just destroy him, not to mention the other saves as well. why have high strength and be a paladin when your practically making a fighter?? makes no sense, i can expend my hp because i can heal it, and i wont get hit often enough to be in danger of dying

also 2d6+12on average is = 18
compared to the 14, 2 rounds to buff? i can also buff up with divine favor, instantly close it down to 16 and still have more ac, and better saves, more hp to heal up, higher chance to hit with smite evil when needed, heal myself up for about 70% of my hp in a second. why focus on being the main damage dealer, when you are being the impenetrable tank? 2 points away, not to mention the amount of round divine sacrifice lasts, and the free action it would take to sacrifice 10 hp, and do damage on the next successful hit. if the paladin you just described used divine sacrifice, and had lets say just about the same hp mine had, hed last less time with only 28 points of lay on hands to use. he coulndt potentially do as much damage if he wanted to with his mount and himself. deciding mid combat if using my divine shield to instantly get +7 ac to have 31 ac, or 36 depending on our artificer friends abilities.
hit more often sure, hit harder without having to buff, sure. but ac of 20 = no tanking for you and less front line fighting when my dm likes to send things that usually hit with a +15 - +20, and have 5 attacks, with side effects and alot of saves which if not passed can leave you instantly perma blind or dead or polymorphed.. or take full damage of a maximized fireball. reflex and will saves are under 10, way under 10...
other than that, you forget that no matter which attack hits, the 5d6 go off, on the next confirmed HIT, so thats actually
60% AND 40% and 10% so it will go off once per round statistically, so thats a confirmed 15 damage on average, limited to only applying strength to increase damage. 13 damager per round more? only if you can last as long

[lsfreak]

why tell me to use capitals? thats my response to that specific thing,

Because this forum has high standards for what's considered acceptable formatting. While it's not going to be looked down on to the same level as chatspeak (which it outright prohibited by forum rules), refusing to post with proper capitalization is likely to make people think you're intentionally failing to show the level of respect given by the rest of the forum members. Like showing up to a gathering in a well-regarded establishment in holey clothes. It may sour people to you before it even comes to the content of your threads.

[Askeladd]

I think I see the problem with the responses. The OP doesn't mention about your limited books, which is a VERY important thing on these forums (especially to the optimizers). It lets them know what they can work with to help you. mustve slipped my mind to mention them, sorry, most things arent allowed, its kinda annoying.item compendium i think i might be out of the question as well, i really am limited on what i can use, so ive been trying to stick to the few books i know i can use.

complete divine
complete warrior
some player handbook 2 (some, i dont think hed allow the variant paladin feature else id just go grey guard and smite just about anything)
its more of a show and ask if i can use kind of thing... half the time i simply dont know what he allows or doesnt allow...

one thing is for sure, i can only multiclass between 2 classes for 1 prestige class. if i ask for certain things he may be compelled to allow them. so even if he says certain book isnt allowed, i can still ask and hope he may agree to allow something.

[Askeladd]

Because this forum has high standards for what's considered acceptable formatting. While it's not going to be looked down on to the same level as chatspeak (which it outright prohibited by forum rules), refusing to post with proper capitalization is likely to make people think you're intentionally failing to show the level of respect given by the rest of the forum members. Like showing up to a gathering in a well-regarded establishment in holey clothes. It may sour people to you before it even comes to the content of your threads.
Makes sense, im sorry. I was simply being honest. I usually dont bother trying to fix my grammar, and its a bad habbit, a poison really. I will try to better my writing from now on then on here.

[ArcturusV]

Hmm. I mean, I like Paladins. Don't get me wrong. One of my favorite things to play. But when I look at that build I feel there's a disconnect on a fundamental level between how I look at Paladins, and how you are. It makes it hard for me to really follow what you're trying to do.

How I see it:

Paladins are the sword of righteousness. They're not nice guys. They're not "the tank" or "The brick wall". They are not Mr. Dumpling (Very deceptive fighting style, Mr. Dumpling pummels the enemy's fist with his face!). Most of their "Defensive" abilities are geared more towards trying to prevent themselves from being One Shot by something, to allow them to get in there, get the charge on, and put the hurt on the target with a holy smite of doom.

Thus when I'm looking at feats I'm looking at things like Devotion feats that let me trade out the Turn Uses I'm not going to be using for offensive effects. Or I'm picking up even simple things like Extra Smites, Spirited Charge, etc. I see my role in a party not as "the tank" but as "The hammer". I drop targets. That simple. My level 12 paladin rocks out the Smite Evil on a Power Attacked Spirited Charge so that I deal Lance Damage plus 10 Power Attack plus 5 strength plus 12 Smite plus 3-4 weapon enchantment plus spell boosts times 3 for the charge. So that I'm doing 3d8 (average 13) + 30 + 15 + 36 + 12 + misc for a total of upwards towards 106 damage and put a serious hurting on someone.

Where as you seem to have a very "defensive" build. Which... I can't imagine is all that effective a high levels. It might be necessary if you're playing Solo, because you don't have someone who can catch you if you fall. But in a game... well... why would an enemy go attack the guy who is turtling up and not really a threat unless someone tries to attack them, as opposed to just saying "Hey... get to you later Paladouche... I'mma go slaughter your wizard friend now."? I have a hard time really dealing with ideas of "The tank" and defensive fighters. I just don't really see it being applicable to DnD style combat unless you're talking about 4th edition with it's Marks and such which do give a reason for them to attack you (Because you'll smack them if they don't and they have reduced chances to hit if they don't).

I dunno. That seems to be the issue I see. It's why it's hard to advise on a build like that because it's so far out of the realm of understanding towards what 'works' on the table for me. I've never had a DM (Or been a DM) where I"ve let people "Tank". My enemies who aren't mindless aren't going to try to hammer away on the guy who's just covering up and ignore the people who are actually stabbing them. I can't quite imagine a game where that sort of thing happens. So I don't really know how to handle it. I'd probably be the player at the table laughing at the "Elite Soldiers" you face who are doing that going "What a bunch of morons!" as I drop some magical doom on their head.

[Askeladd]

Hmm. I mean, I like Paladins. Don't get me wrong. One of my favorite things to play. But when I look at that build I feel there's a disconnect on a fundamental level between how I look at Paladins, and how you are. It makes it hard for me to really follow what you're trying to do.

How I see it:

Paladins are the sword of righteousness. They're not nice guys. They're not "the tank" or "The brick wall". They are not Mr. Dumpling (Very deceptive fighting style, Mr. Dumpling pummels the enemy's fist with his face!). Most of their "Defensive" abilities are geared more towards trying to prevent themselves from being One Shot by something, to allow them to get in there, get the charge on, and put the hurt on the target with a holy smite of doom.

Thus when I'm looking at feats I'm looking at things like Devotion feats that let me trade out the Turn Uses I'm not going to be using for offensive effects. Or I'm picking up even simple things like Extra Smites, Spirited Charge, etc. I see my role in a party not as "the tank" but as "The hammer". I drop targets. That simple. My level 12 paladin rocks out the Smite Evil on a Power Attacked Spirited Charge so that I deal Lance Damage plus 10 Power Attack plus 5 strength plus 12 Smite plus 3-4 weapon enchantment plus spell boosts times 3 for the charge. So that I'm doing 3d8 (average 13) + 30 + 15 + 36 + 12 + misc for a total of upwards towards 106 damage and put a serious hurting on someone.

Where as you seem to have a very "defensive" build. Which... I can't imagine is all that effective a high levels. It might be necessary if you're playing Solo, because you don't have someone who can catch you if you fall. But in a game... well... why would an enemy go attack the guy who is turtling up and not really a threat unless someone tries to attack them, as opposed to just saying "Hey... get to you later Paladouche... I'mma go slaughter your wizard friend now."? I have a hard time really dealing with ideas of "The tank" and defensive fighters. I just don't really see it being applicable to DnD style combat unless you're talking about 4th edition with it's Marks and such which do give a reason for them to attack you (Because you'll smack them if they don't and they have reduced chances to hit if they don't).

I dunno. That seems to be the issue I see. It's why it's hard to advise on a build like that because it's so far out of the realm of understanding towards what 'works' on the table for me. I've never had a DM (Or been a DM) where I"ve let people "Tank". My enemies who aren't mindless aren't going to try to hammer away on the guy who's just covering up and ignore the people who are actually stabbing them. I can't quite imagine a game where that sort of thing happens. So I don't really know how to handle it. I'd probably be the player at the table laughing at the "Elite Soldiers" you face who are doing that going "What a bunch of morons!" as I drop some magical doom on their head.
As i mentioned before, multipliers wont work like that so spirited charge would only increase lances 1d8 damage alone. in this campaign, i tried that LOL.
where as you see the hammer, i see the last hope, the vanguard, if the party needs to retreat, the one who would stay behind and let them escape, when the party is down, the one who is still standing fighting to the bitter end. sure, at higher lvls it seems that my ac wont save me, but with things like combat expertice and allies bonuses more amulets and rings of natural armor or protection, i can still make the character viable, point is to be able to hit my oponent while he cant hit me... and its not that they only focus me, or that i tank for the party, i tank for myself, and there are a bunch of moments where the party is split. whats the point of picking a class, if in the end its all just about who does more damage... i insta killed him using his will save, i insta killed him by attacking him with one attack, i insta killed him using his reflex save, i insta killed that guy using all of these things that stack.. i see why people say paladins suck, its cus they dont see ability with survivability, they see it with who does more damage. imo, doesnt matter how much damage you do, cool you can insta kill a god.. that cat scratched you, rolled a nat 20, rolled a 100, it just cut off your head

[LordConcrete]

...i see why people say paladins suck, its cus they dont see ability with survivability, they see it with who does more damage. imo, doesnt matter how much damage you do, cool you can insta kill a god.. that cat scratched you, rolled a nat 20, rolled a 100, it just cut off your head

Luckily, Aske, here in the playground, we judge classes not by damage, but by straight versatility and potential. The reason why people think paladins "suck" is because they don't get ninth level spells (or break the game in half so many ways its not...)
And people don't think paladins suck.
For many of us that use online sources such as dndtools.eu, there are feats such as serenity that lower MAD and other such downsides of the paladin.
Paladins have fantastic ACFs and feats. Battle Blessing, Sword of the Arcane Order, etc.
Paladins have a great chasis, spellcasting, and plenty of strong options.
There was a debate on the forums a while back, and I don't remember what its called, but a Paladin can be built to a high degree of versatility and potential. (T3-4)

From the Why Each Class is in its tier:
"Paladins suck due to almost the same conditions that make a fighter suck. They are 1~2 trick ponys and every single one of those tricks is considerably lesser than what other classes can do.

First off a Paladin requires four abilities which leads them to having very low scores overall in point buy or to have poor scores in key abilities from low rolls. They have very little to offer skill wise outside of diplomacy, but to even take that a Paladin would require 12 int since their two skill points would be spent in Handle Animal and Ride.

As for their other abilities they are mostly flavorful. Detect Evil for example is pretty moot. If it's attacking then attack back. If it's an evil guy undercover then his alignment is likewise hidden for a handful of coin. Smite Evil is one of the Paladin's signature abilities it's per day usage renders it worthless. By the 20th level you can smite five times per day. Comparatively a Fist of Raziel gives five smites over a ten level period and Ordained Champion gives you 3 + cha mod on the first level. Secondly, the damage bonus isn't all that great. Most people tend to PrC out by the 6th level for better class abilities which means your smite damage is only a mere +6 bonus which is something you could dig up for less than 5k on magical items. Unlike a touch attack spell if you miss with smite it is still expended and don't expect to gain much of an attack bonus with that low charisma. Even new players will see how worthless Remove Disease is so I won't comment on that one. The Code of Conduct is mostly there for players to argue what is allowed or not.

The Charging Smite is a useful and fixes the miss problem with smite and helps them turn into an ubercharger but it costs the Paladin their other signature class ability. The mount. I consider the Mount to be the best Paladin class ability, which in a way tells you just how badly they suck. When you first get it at the 5th level all you can do is replicate a first level spell once per day. Later on it it's worse than the effect of a 3rd level spell called Phantom Steed. At least that steed won't impose a month long penalty to your combat when it gets fireballed.

The spell list too limited to be useful and casting uses up the Paladin's standard action for a minor buff or a cure effect no one has any use for. There is a class substitution to replace the list with wizard spells. But a duskblade is a much, much better choice. So is a sorcerer/fighter/eldritch knight...

Finally anything a Paladin can do a Cleric can do better. Clerics are better at healing, turning, spell casting, summoning pets, and are not that far behind a Paladin combat wise. Divine Power quickly makes up for that. For an added insult there are PrCs that give full Paladin-like flavor and abilities in less levels. A Paladin's build choices are actually more limited than a fighters' who at least has thousands of feats to choose from and are all subpar in the same way JaronK says the fighter's abilities are." - SorO_lost

[Flickerdart]

also 2d6+12on average is = 18
No it isn't. The average of a d6 is 3.5. The sum total of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 is 21, divided by 6.

The rest of your post just demonstrates how little you actually understand about the game.

[Askeladd]

Luckily, Aske, here in the playground, we judge classes not by damage, but by straight versatility and potential. The reason why people think paladins "suck" is because they don't get ninth level spells (or break the game in half so many ways its not...)
And people don't think paladins suck.
For many of us that use online sources such as dndtools.eu, there are feats such as serenity that lower MAD and other such downsides of the paladin.
Paladins have fantastic ACFs and feats. Battle Blessing, Sword of the Arcane Order, etc.
Paladins have a great chasis, spellcasting, and plenty of strong options.
There was a debate on the forums a while back, and I don't remember what its called, but a Paladin can be built to a high degree of versatility and potential. (T3-4)

From the Why Each Class is in its tier:
"Paladins suck due to almost the same conditions that make a fighter suck. They are 1~2 trick ponys and every single one of those tricks is considerably lesser than what other classes can do.

First off a Paladin requires four abilities which leads them to having very low scores overall in point buy or to have poor scores in key abilities from low rolls. They have very little to offer skill wise outside of diplomacy, but to even take that a Paladin would require 12 int since their two skill points would be spent in Handle Animal and Ride.

As for their other abilities they are mostly flavorful. Detect Evil for example is pretty moot. If it's attacking then attack back. If it's an evil guy undercover then his alignment is likewise hidden for a handful of coin. Smite Evil is one of the Paladin's signature abilities it's per day usage renders it worthless. By the 20th level you can smite five times per day. Comparatively a Fist of Raziel gives five smites over a ten level period and Ordained Champion gives you 3 + cha mod on the first level. Secondly, the damage bonus isn't all that great. Most people tend to PrC out by the 6th level for better class abilities which means your smite damage is only a mere +6 bonus which is something you could dig up for less than 5k on magical items. Unlike a touch attack spell if you miss with smite it is still expended and don't expect to gain much of an attack bonus with that low charisma. Even new players will see how worthless Remove Disease is so I won't comment on that one. The Code of Conduct is mostly there for players to argue what is allowed or not.

The Charging Smite is a useful and fixes the miss problem with smite and helps them turn into an ubercharger but it costs the Paladin their other signature class ability. The mount. I consider the Mount to be the best Paladin class ability, which in a way tells you just how badly they suck. When you first get it at the 5th level all you can do is replicate a first level spell once per day. Later on it it's worse than the effect of a 3rd level spell called Phantom Steed. At least that steed won't impose a month long penalty to your combat when it gets fireballed.

The spell list too limited to be useful and casting uses up the Paladin's standard action for a minor buff or a cure effect no one has any use for. There is a class substitution to replace the list with wizard spells. But a duskblade is a much, much better choice. So is a sorcerer/fighter/eldritch knight...

Finally anything a Paladin can do a Cleric can do better. Clerics are better at healing, turning, spell casting, summoning pets, and are not that far behind a Paladin combat wise. Divine Power quickly makes up for that. For an added insult there are PrCs that give full Paladin-like flavor and abilities in less levels. A Paladin's build choices are actually more limited than a fighters' who at least has thousands of feats to choose from and are all subpar in the same way JaronK says the fighter's abilities are." - SorO_lost
Oh, I couldnt agree more. other classes are better, I have no problem admitting that, but I made a paladin and its pretty good at what he does. remove disease, how about remove this ability for something better....
i mean i play the character for fluff, its the point of the game imo, fluff, the building is just a side thing which im also a fan of, but i dont beleive in not trying something just because its not the most effective way of making a character, in fact im sure your all(or most) thinking "just make a cleric and call him a paladin" but then id just be the 3rd cleric in our party.

[Askeladd]

No it isn't. The average of a d6 is 3.5. The sum total of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 is 21, divided by 6.

The rest of your post just demonstrates how little you actually understand about the game.
then redo the math with the divine sacrifice having the added 110% chance of activating with 3 attacks rather than with just the first attack.
please explain how the rest of my post does so.

[Crazysaneman]

I just want to say OP I love your attitude, both about the Paladin and the 'your build sux and you don't understand the game lololz' trolls. I wish I had something to offer, but I rarely play Pallys :smallfrown:. I've said it before and I'll say it again and again that if the build fits the game it's in then it's a good build. I think the build looks fun, and I may give it a go in an upcoming game I'm running.

Keep up the good work.

[Gwendol]

What mount are you using? The horse?

[Deophaun]

i mean i play the character for fluff, its the point of the game imo, fluff, the building is just a side thing which im also a fan of, but i dont beleive in not trying something just because its not the most effective way of making a character, in fact im sure your all(or most) thinking "just make a cleric and call him a paladin" but then id just be the 3rd cleric in our party.
::Raps Askeladd's hands with a ruler for the relapse::

I was actually thinking "Just make a Crusader and call him a Paladin," but your DM might not allow ToB.

As I look at it, you are the third cleric in your party. You're just an underpowered one because you traded away your full casting for a horse and full BAB.

[Red Fel]

As i mentioned before, multipliers wont work like that so spirited charge would only increase lances 1d8 damage alone. in this campaign, i tried that LOL.
where as you see the hammer, i see the last hope, the vanguard, if the party needs to retreat, the one who would stay behind and let them escape, when the party is down, the one who is still standing fighting to the bitter end. sure, at higher lvls it seems that my ac wont save me, but with things like combat expertice and allies bonuses more amulets and rings of natural armor or protection, i can still make the character viable, point is to be able to hit my oponent while he cant hit me... and its not that they only focus me, or that i tank for the party, i tank for myself, and there are a bunch of moments where the party is split. whats the point of picking a class, if in the end its all just about who does more damage... i insta killed him using his will save, i insta killed him by attacking him with one attack, i insta killed him using his reflex save, i insta killed that guy using all of these things that stack.. i see why people say paladins suck, its cus they dont see ability with survivability, they see it with who does more damage. imo, doesnt matter how much damage you do, cool you can insta kill a god.. that cat scratched you, rolled a nat 20, rolled a 100, it just cut off your head

It sounds like your goal was to basically make an unkillable beatstick with a nova attack. I can respect that. Here's where I see two problems with it.

1: A nova attack is very nice. You could have optimized your Smiting differently, as others in the thread have mentioned, but you seem satisfied with your work. The problem with a nova, however, is that it gets used once and then burns out. You have a limited number of Smites before you can't nova anymore. Once you can't, your combat utility drops substantially. And yes, you have some feats and buffs to augment your regular combat damage, but other classes can already meet or exceed that level, and you are further hindered by passing up on damage-dealing feats in favor of feats that will enable you to...

2: Tank. You see your guy as an untouchable, unkillable, self-healing wall of steel. That's fine. Being able to survive is a valuable thing, particularly when it comes to Save-or-Lose/Save-or-Die abilities. However, consider the saying, "The best defense is a good offense." The best way to keep from taking damage isn't to have a high AC, but to kill the things attacking you. By taking feats and features designed to make you survive better, you have chosen not to take others which would make you more lethal.

Now, you argue, staying alive longer means you have more chances to attack your enemies. This is true. Further, you can be the bastion of defense who guards the rear while the others retreat. This is false, for two reasons. First, if your party - you included - were more lethal, retreat would not be necessary. Second, at higher levels, you face enemies who are going to be more mobile than you are. An enemy who can Dimension Door will laugh at you as he teleports past you to kill the crap out of your squishy friends. Smart enemies will realize that if they can't kill you, they can simply steer around you, and there's nothing your build can do to stop that.

Your Paladin is a fine build as a one-on-one soloing machine. It's not ideal, but it can at least function from one encounter to the next. But it does not seem to accomplish what you say you want it to.

Ultimately, the reason other players are suggesting that your build is flawed (not that it sucks, merely that it has flaws) is that it focuses too much on survivability, which simply does not help your party. Some suggestions I have heard, which I will echo here:

1. Lose the shield. If your campaign goes by WBL, a shield's contribution to your AC is too low for the WBL expenditure; you could be spending that WBL on better armor, weapons, and magic items. Alternatively, get Animated on the shield, which will allow you to use...

2. A two-handed weapon. Mathematically speaking, the best damage comes from two-handed weapons, moreso than two-weapon fighting or sword-and-shield setups. You can put your full Str behind attacks, and receive double the benefit from Power Attack. Get the biggest two-handed beat-stick you can find, use the WBL you saved on your shield to enhance the crap out of it.

3. Consider a Devotion feat from Complete Champion. In particular, Knowledge Devotion is a popular choice; given how unreasonably high your Int is, you should be able to get excellent results on your Knowledge checks, resulting in useful boosts to attack and damage rolls.

4. Speaking of Int, unless you're taking an ACF/variant involving arcane spells (and there is one), Int should be a dump stat for Paladins. It's probably too late to change it on this character, but if you were to do it over, I would put the 15 on your Str, the 14 from Str on Con, and the 13 from Con on Dex. Yes, Dex can actually be useful for a Paladin. For example, if you combine Combat Reflexes (PHB) with Stand Still (Expanded Psionics Handbook), you can use your extra attacks of opportunity to stop any enemy cold who tries to move past you. That's useful for the tanking thing you're trying.

5. The mount. Let's be honest, it's not the most practical class feature. The name of the game is Dungeons & Dragons; a lot of the time, you'll be someplace you can't use it, such as a cave, a castle, or, yes, a dungeon. There are alternate class features you could have taken which serve you better. For example, the Charging Smite ACF in PHB 2 replaces your mount with extra smite damage on a charge; the Stand Fast feature from Cityscape (available on the web (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)) lets you lend Divine Grace to allies, or use it against a bull rush, trip, sunder, etc. Alternatively, if you want to optimize the mount, optimize the mount. There are feats that can give you a Celestial mount, or a Draconic mount, or what have you. You can really juice that bad boy up if you try.

6. The smite. You haven't optimized it at all. If your goal was to be able to nova with this guy, you could have done more for it. See Charging Smite above. Awesome Smite, from Complete Champion, gives you exceptional options when using Smite with Power Attack.

These are just a few points. The bottom line is that you've overlooked the potential uses for this class by focusing on one aspect that will not help you at higher levels.

[LordConcrete]

I feel like we're playing in a higher-op game that he is... For us it may seem his build is weak.

If we were given the context of his game, then maybe his DM isn't sending optimized challenges at them.
I wonder what the rest of his party looks like.

@Askeladd
What do you think of the Tarrasque?

[Askeladd]

It sounds like your goal was to basically make an unkillable beatstick with a nova attack. I can respect that. Here's where I see two problems with it.

1: A nova attack is very nice. You could have optimized your Smiting differently, as others in the thread have mentioned, but you seem satisfied with your work. The problem with a nova, however, is that it gets used once and then burns out. You have a limited number of Smites before you can't nova anymore. Once you can't, your combat utility drops substantially. And yes, you have some feats and buffs to augment your regular combat damage, but other classes can already meet or exceed that level, and you are further hindered by passing up on damage-dealing feats in favor of feats that will enable you to...

2: Tank. You see your guy as an untouchable, unkillable, self-healing wall of steel. That's fine. Being able to survive is a valuable thing, particularly when it comes to Save-or-Lose/Save-or-Die abilities. However, consider the saying, "The best defense is a good offense." The best way to keep from taking damage isn't to have a high AC, but to kill the things attacking you. By taking feats and features designed to make you survive better, you have chosen not to take others which would make you more lethal.

Now, you argue, staying alive longer means you have more chances to attack your enemies. This is true. Further, you can be the bastion of defense who guards the rear while the others retreat. This is false, for two reasons. First, if your party - you included - were more lethal, retreat would not be necessary. Second, at higher levels, you face enemies who are going to be more mobile than you are. An enemy who can Dimension Door will laugh at you as he teleports past you to kill the crap out of your squishy friends. Smart enemies will realize that if they can't kill you, they can simply steer around you, and there's nothing your build can do to stop that.

Your Paladin is a fine build as a one-on-one soloing machine. It's not ideal, but it can at least function from one encounter to the next. But it does not seem to accomplish what you say you want it to.

Ultimately, the reason other players are suggesting that your build is flawed (not that it sucks, merely that it has flaws) is that it focuses too much on survivability, which simply does not help your party. Some suggestions I have heard, which I will echo here:

1. Lose the shield. If your campaign goes by WBL, a shield's contribution to your AC is too low for the WBL expenditure; you could be spending that WBL on better armor, weapons, and magic items. Alternatively, get Animated on the shield, which will allow you to use...

2. A two-handed weapon. Mathematically speaking, the best damage comes from two-handed weapons, moreso than two-weapon fighting or sword-and-shield setups. You can put your full Str behind attacks, and receive double the benefit from Power Attack. Get the biggest two-handed beat-stick you can find, use the WBL you saved on your shield to enhance the crap out of it.

3. Consider a Devotion feat from Complete Champion. In particular, Knowledge Devotion is a popular choice; given how unreasonably high your Int is, you should be able to get excellent results on your Knowledge checks, resulting in useful boosts to attack and damage rolls.

4. Speaking of Int, unless you're taking an ACF/variant involving arcane spells (and there is one), Int should be a dump stat for Paladins. It's probably too late to change it on this character, but if you were to do it over, I would put the 15 on your Str, the 14 from Str on Con, and the 13 from Con on Dex. Yes, Dex can actually be useful for a Paladin. For example, if you combine Combat Reflexes (PHB) with Stand Still (Expanded Psionics Handbook), you can use your extra attacks of opportunity to stop any enemy cold who tries to move past you. That's useful for the tanking thing you're trying.

5. The mount. Let's be honest, it's not the most practical class feature. The name of the game is Dungeons & Dragons; a lot of the time, you'll be someplace you can't use it, such as a cave, a castle, or, yes, a dungeon. There are alternate class features you could have taken which serve you better. For example, the Charging Smite ACF in PHB 2 replaces your mount with extra smite damage on a charge; the Stand Fast feature from Cityscape (available on the web (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)) lets you lend Divine Grace to allies, or use it against a bull rush, trip, sunder, etc. Alternatively, if you want to optimize the mount, optimize the mount. There are feats that can give you a Celestial mount, or a Draconic mount, or what have you. You can really juice that bad boy up if you try.

6. The smite. You haven't optimized it at all. If your goal was to be able to nova with this guy, you could have done more for it. See Charging Smite above. Awesome Smite, from Complete Champion, gives you exceptional options when using Smite with Power Attack.

These are just a few points. The bottom line is that you've overlooked the potential uses for this class by focusing on one aspect that will not help you at higher levels.
Nice, I love all of this. the animated shield is the first thing il work on, thing is divine shield is like divine might for my ac, and requires a shield. but animating it is something i will be doing, i cant use complete champion sadly, i understand that there are things i could take that could make this character even better, its simply they either are not allowed in this game, nerfed in a sense in this game, or i realized the error way too late.

divine might was my way of making my defense my offense as well,
i admit i dont know everything about the game, but thats why im here. from where i am now which route should i take? i wont be able to retrain feats, and as i mentioned i have 10k gold waiting for me next game session.

the mount- i at first tried to optimize towards mounted combat and spirited charge, but then realized how nerfed my dm was going to make it so i braught it up and had my feats changed from rideby attack and spirited charge, to power attack and divine might.

the int thing- your right, but when i first made this character i knew nothing about paladins and the first thing i thought was "int, well i get low skill points and may want to take combat expertice... ehh why not" and well, its not too bad but i realized i coulda used dex alot more lol,

smite- i wish i could take charging smite i only found it too late, and still think my dm wouldnt allow it anyways.

any other suggestions for the future?

[Kudaku]

@Askeladd
What do you think of the Tarrasque?

Maybe we should make this question the default reply to any "Suggest a build"-thread? The answer gives you an idea of where the character should be on the power spectrum.

[Askeladd]

I feel like we're playing in a higher-op game that he is... For us it may seem his build is weak.

If we were given the context of his game, then maybe his DM isn't sending optimized challenges at them.
I wonder what the rest of his party looks like.

@Askeladd
What do you think of the Tarrasque?

the dm jokes about sending it at us, but i havent looked it up. tell you the truth, his game is not made for melee characters, most things can fly, and prepare spells? pfft no one does. a melee character crit? oh fun, roll your 4d6 that a great sword would get then your NORMAL str and other numerical bonuses, cus those dont get multiplied at all, your a rogue? your sneak attack can only go off once per round, and im just gonna send flying,undead,constructs at you anyways so whats the point?
not to mention that he gives exp bonus just for casting spells, you cast a spell? 100 exp for you, cast another? 100 more. he "nerfed" it down a bit but still, hes the only dm in the 2 games im playing (about to start another game with a hopefully more open minded dm)

in his campaign, my rogue died, my fighter died, my barbarian died. the only two characters that havent died have been my magic missile mage, and my paladin. and ive only recently been understanding how to really build a melee character, since in his campaign we are actually more in an open world than in a dungeon, and most enemies die within 2 rounds of starting since the spellcasters just obliterate them, or its a flying monster or some kind of thing that the melee characters cant just come up to and full attack (since its the only thing i see happening for a melee character here)

[Red Fel]

the dm jokes about sending it at us, but i havent looked it up. tell you the truth, his game is not made for melee characters, most things can fly, and prepare spells? pfft no one does. a melee character crit? oh fun, roll your 4d6 that a great sword would get then your NORMAL str and other numerical bonuses, cus those dont get multiplied at all, your a rogue? your sneak attack can only go off once per round, and im just gonna send flying,undead,constructs at you anyways so whats the point?
not to mention that he gives exp bonus just for casting spells, you cast a spell? 100 exp for you, cast another? 100 more. he "nerfed" it down a bit but still, hes the only dm in the 2 games im playing (about to start another game with a hopefully more open minded dm)

in his campaign, my rogue died, my fighter died, my barbarian died. the only two characters that havent died have been my magic missile mage, and my paladin. and ive only recently been understanding how to really build a melee character, since in his campaign we are actually more in an open world than in a dungeon, and most enemies die within 2 rounds of starting since the spellcasters just obliterate them, or its a flying monster or some kind of thing that the melee characters cant just come up to and full attack (since its the only thing i see happening for a melee character here)

There are two things you can learn from this, both in terms of this DM and in terms of D&D in general.

1: Spellcasters rule the roost. You've probably heard about the Tier System. Spellcasters have more versatility - they can do more things, and often do them better, than melee classes. This is particularly true in core - the difference between Clerics, Druids, and Wizards, and Fighters, Rogues, and Rangers, is profound. I won't even mention Monks and Paladins.

2: Melee can't have nice things. This is the system setting almost by default, and a trap into which many DMs fall - little houserules like "Rogues can only Sneak Attack once per round," for instance, are symptomatic of this disorder. It's only made worse by the fact that melee classes in core are substantially hobbled. Later books gave solid ACFs or alternatives, but in the beginning, melee was taken out behind the shed and beaten stupid.

The trick to being melee and surviving is not having the best AC or resistances, although saves will definitely help. The trick is playing smart. Smart playing means several things.

1: Be aggressive. Things can't kill you if they're dead. (Except for undead, but that's a different kind of dead). Design a build that can put enemies down fast, and they won't bury your melees.

2: Be mobile. If you can close distance quickly, you can negate any ranged advantage the enemy has. If you can move from place to place easily, you can prevent the enemy from ganging up on you. If you can keep pace, you can prevent the enemy from escaping and bringing reinforcements. And so on, and so on.

3: Be tactical. Don't just close range and smack it. Play it smart. Will tripping help? Grappling? Can you use concealment or break line of sight? Can you use your environment? Can you and an ally flank it? Don't forget the classic rules. Focus your fire on one enemy at a time. Take out the squishiest targets first, because fewer enemies (even if the strong ones are the ones left) mean fewer chances to hit your allies. Be aware of the action economy - you may only have so many turns in a round, but the same limit applies to your enemies.

4: Be optimal. Know what you're good at, and be great at it. You don't have to over-optimize, but you should play to your strengths. A Barbarian should smash things. A Rogue should flank. A Paladin should smite. A Monk should reroll his character be ineffectual sit in the corner and cry grapple, I guess. Each class has things at which it is good, and should use those. By the same token, know your limits. A Barbarian can make great use of Leap Attack, but maybe he shouldn't be the social face of the party. A Paladin may have some useful spells, but that doesn't mean he should attempt to heal in combat. A Monk may sound cool in concept, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be playing an Unarmed Swordsage instead.

These are just basics. Smart melee is able to apply these lessons, increasing the utility of melee classes while increasing their survivability.

As for you, at this point, most of your build is set in stone. If you enjoy what you're playing, enjoy it, done and done. Most of what you can do now involves changing play style, not build. If, in the future, you decide to roll a Paladin again - or, frankly, any other class - I would suggest reading the various Handbooks out there on the subject. (Look them up. Google is your friend.) I would also suggest confirming with your DM, in advance, which books will and will not be allowed. There are many options available to the discerning builder, but knowing what tools you have will help you determine the best course of action.

[Bovine Colonel]

the dm jokes about sending it at us, but i havent looked it up. tell you the truth, his game is not made for melee characters, most things can fly, and prepare spells? pfft no one does. a melee character crit? oh fun, roll your 4d6 that a great sword would get then your NORMAL str and other numerical bonuses, cus those dont get multiplied at all, your a rogue? your sneak attack can only go off once per round, and im just gonna send flying,undead,constructs at you anyways so whats the point?

Good grief your DM hates melee types. Is he aware of the damage multiplication rules here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#multiplyingDamage) and the fact that nothing here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#sneakAttack) suggests that sneak attack is limited to 1/round?

[SiuiS]

As i mentioned before, multipliers wont work like that so spirited charge would only increase lances 1d8 damage alone. in this campaign, i tried that LOL.
where as you see the hammer, i see the last hope, the vanguard, if the party needs to retreat, the one who would stay behind and let them escape,

But your damage output sucks. Why is the enemy going to fight you, no threatening turtle guy, and let the prey get away? The party runs, you stand behind, and the demon pats you on the head and chases the party. You're a trap, true, but you're a trap the enemy can Just walk around.

[Vhaidara]

Yeah, the only class actually able to tank is the knight, because it has a taunt ability that can make enemies attack it.

[Red Fel]

Yeah, the only class actually able to tank is the knight, because it has a taunt ability that can make enemies attack it.

The Crusader would like to have a few words with you.

[Vhaidara]

I've never made a ToB character, and I have limited experience playing with them.

[Red Fel]

I've never made a ToB character, and I have limited experience playing with them.

The short version is that a Crusader is a heavily-armored class with a delayed damage pool which it can use to increase the pain it deals. It also has two stances, one of which (Iron Guard's Glare) reduces the attack rolls of any enemies in range unless they attack the Crusader (and they are aware of this), the other (Thicket of Blades) allows an Attack of Opportunity on anything that so much as breathes in your threat range. Combine Thicket of Blades, a reach weapon, Combat Reflexes, and Stand Still, and you can basically stop all motion within 10 feet of your character. Bam. Ain't nobody going nowhere unless they go through you.

They also have one of the only effective, efficient, and safe methods of combat spot-healing. They do it by hitting things with weapons.

[Gwendol]

The knight ToM ability has much greater range, but is a will save and makes the enemy attack the knight over others.
Knights also get Bulwark of Defence which also limits movement around him.

Iron guard glare isn't really a taunt.

[Red Fel]

The knight ToM ability has much greater range, but is a will save and makes the enemy attack the knight over others.
Knights also get Bulwark of Defence which also limits movement around him.

Iron guard glare isn't really a taunt.

IGG isn't a taunt, so much as a band-aid.

Thicket of Blades is designed to help you keep things from reaching your squishies. With the combo above, you can stop them cold, which basically forces them to either hit you or make some really good Reflex saves if they want to move past you.

IGG is what you use when they're already close enough to hit your squishies. Freezing them in place won't stop them from beating up on the Wizard. But IGG will make it harder for those attacks to hit home. What's more, read the text of the stance:

While you are in this stance, any opponent that you threaten takes a —4 penalty on attack rolls against your allies. This penalty does not apply to attacks made against you. Enemies you threaten become aware of the consequences of the stance.
In other words, they know they're going to take a penalty against your allies. They know they won't take one against you. You've gone from being an obstacle they can simply move past to being a nuisance which must be dealt with.

Also, there's the fact that the Crusader actually functions well at dealing damage as well as taking it, making him a genuine threat on the battlefield. Which is generally enough to thoroughly tick off the Monster of the Day.

[Askeladd]

The short version is that a Crusader is a heavily-armored class with a delayed damage pool which it can use to increase the pain it deals. It also has two stances, one of which (Iron Guard's Glare) reduces the attack rolls of any enemies in range unless they attack the Crusader (and they are aware of this), the other (Thicket of Blades) allows an Attack of Opportunity on anything that so much as breathes in your threat range. Combine Thicket of Blades, a reach weapon, Combat Reflexes, and Stand Still, and you can basically stop all motion within 10 feet of your character. Bam. Ain't nobody going nowhere unless they go through you.

They also have one of the only effective, efficient, and safe methods of combat spot-healing. They do it by hitting things with weapons.
^ i want one of those

[danzibr]

You mentioned your Paladin soloing a boss, but never mentioned the boss. Can we hear about it?

[Askeladd]

You mentioned your Paladin soloing a boss, but never mentioned the boss. Can we hear about it?
il get the name for it, it had reach for sure, tentacles it could fly, had like some kind of acid leaking from under it.