Why aren't favored soul taken seriously?

[A Tad Insane]

Just curious. There is no handbook for them, any thread that mentions them will inevitably include how their lack of turn/rebuke and knowledge (religion) is a hindrance to trying to get all the cool divine prc, and people sometimes say not to bother and just roll a cleric. They are still a t2 class with interesting fluff, less paperwork than a cleric, and, with enough google-fu/homebrew, can wield any weapon ever. Plus Wotc have mentioned you can change knowledge (arcane) for (religion), and sacred exosist is a thing.

[JaronK]

Basically because Clerics are the same but better.

JaronK

[hymer]

Handbook-wise, you can read up on cleric and sorcerer to get the basics of what you should be looking out for. And when you read the cleric handbook, you'll probably switch to play one of those. :smallsmile:

I guess favoured souls lag behind the cleric a little more than sorcerer lags behind wizard, and they're not in the PHB. Their fluff is also rather boring, because you're supposed to be reading up on cleric fluff to get the religious ideas. And their crunch is... flawed? No Knowledge (religion), two casting stats, no heavy armour prof, and as you said no turn undead.
But what's worse, I think, is the lack of domains. This is where you make your cleric special. FS gets to choose what sort of energy to be resistant to.
FS is just an all-round worse choice than clerics, except for those who hate deciding on spells ahead of time. And even those must really choke on all the other stuff they must give up, and maybe ask their GM to help out. Isn't there a spontaneous casting cleric in UA or something?

Edit: See below.

[Lord Haart]

Just for general education: Favored Soul does get Knowledge: Religion (or Arcane, his choice) as a class skill. It's in the Dead Levels online article.

[AmberVael]

FS is just an all-round worse choice than clerics, except for those who hate deciding on spells ahead of time. And even those must really choke on all the other stuff they must give up, and maybe ask their GM to help out. Isn't there a spontaneous casting cleric in UA or something?

There is a spontaneous variant. For Druids too, in fact.
And like the standard Cleric, it is just flat out better. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm)

They choose less spells known, but overall get more spells since they automatically know their domain spells. And unlike basically every other spontaneous caster ever, they aren't a level behind in terms of spell level.

I quite like the spontaneous cleric, really. Certainly more than Favored Soul.

[hymer]

@ Lord Haart: Right, and the scout skills were fixed too. Thanks. I keep forgetting when I try to whip myself into a frenzy. :smallwink:

@ AmberVael: Exactamundo, thanks.

[Boci]

Just for general education: Favored Soul does get Knowledge: Religion (or Arcane, his choice) as a class skill. It's in the Dead Levels online article.

I don't think that's RAW. But it is a good house rule.

[AgentofHellfire]

There is a spontaneous variant. For Druids too, in fact.
And like the standard Cleric, it is just flat out better. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm)

They choose less spells known, but overall get more spells since they automatically know their domain spells. And unlike basically every other spontaneous caster ever, they aren't a level behind in terms of spell level.

I quite like the spontaneous cleric, really. Certainly more than Favored Soul.

Enh, Favored Souls are Charisma-based casters to a larger extent, though. Some might like that for flavor.

However, Clerics are kind of better. Not due to spell ratios but because they get Turn Undead.

[Angelalex242]

Favored Souls serve no purpose other then reducing MAD of Fists of Raziel. And they don't even do that well.

[LordBlades]

Unlike sorcerers, which offer some unique options (sorcerer-only spells for example, some of which are quite amazing), Favored Soul offers nothing extra compared to Cleric.

[Boci]

Unlike sorcerers, which offer some unique options (sorcerer-only spells for example, some of which are quite amazing), Favored Soul offers nothing extra compared to Cleric.

They only have sorcerer only stuff in splat, but sorcerers are played in core only games. It favoured souls were a core class they would receive more recognition.

[ArqArturo]

Problem is that it uses both Wisdom and Charisma for spellcasting. You can diminish it by making an illumian if you're going for the Gish part, but even then you're sub-par, considering clerics require only Wisdom, and have Turn Undead for anything they need (more damage, metamagic, healing/harming effects, killing undead).

The closest thing I can think of that can work, is by pairing him with the paladin, and even then, it would be better to use the shugenja over the FS.

[Captnq]

This is why:

*grabs a favored soul's arm and starts smacking him in the face with his own hand*

"Why you hitting yourself?"
*Smack*
"Why you hitting yourself?"
*Smack*
"Why you hitting yourself?"
*Smack*

In order to spontaniously cast Cure X Spells, a FS needs to use up a Known spell slot. Clerics get that for free.

[A Tad Insane]

Basically because Clerics are the same but better.

JaronK

By a similar train of logic, you shouldn't play a cleric because Pun-pun is the same but better.

Some people don't want to be CoDzilla, some people don't want to deal with an entire spell list each ingame day, and the 'There are classes that do what you do only better' argument doesn't really hold up when you have wizards, druids and clerics. People play monks, warlocks and many other classes that are only able to surpass tier 1 classes with so much cheese you'd have to kill all the cows in the world.

Good point, I still feel like it just proves the stormwind fallacy

[holywhippet]

Would people consider the spirit shaman to be a better spontaneous caster? Their ability to swap their spell list out each day is one of the best things a spontaneous caster can get IMO. Light armor proficiency is a bit an annoyance, but a single level dip can get around it. They don't have the limitation against metal armor of a druid from what I can see.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Would people consider the spirit shaman to be a better spontaneous caster? Their ability to swap their spell list out each day is one of the best things a spontaneous caster can get IMO. Light armor proficiency is a bit an annoyance, but a single level dip can get around it. They don't have the limitation against metal armor of a druid from what I can see.

If you allow the Dynamic Spellcaster feat from dragonlance certainly.(it would make them entirely charisma based casters)

[AzureKnight]

Instead of the favored soals in my group they prefer Spellcaster from UA if memory serves. Fewer spells per day but can cast spells from any source be it divine, arcane, druis etc.

[Just to Browse]

Spirit Shaman is how spontaneous casters should be designed. Actually, it's how all casters should be designed.

Also, favored soul has no undead turning and thus no divine metamagic. Boooring.

[nedz]

There is a spontaneous variant. For Druids too, in fact.
And like the standard Cleric, it is just flat out better. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm)

They choose less spells known, but overall get more spells since they automatically know their domain spells. And unlike basically every other spontaneous caster ever, they aren't a level behind in terms of spell level.

I quite like the spontaneous cleric, really. Certainly more than Favored Soul.

this basically.

Also, they lack domains and TU and thus find it harder to get into many PrCs

The only reasonable, albeit Mid Op, build is Favoured Soul 5 / Stormlord 10 because the class features save you a feat.

They do get 3 good saves, but that is a little over-rated.

[thethird]

Favored soul make great spellguard wall weavers.

[Pluto!]

The one thing the Favored Soul has that the Cleric doesn't is its interaction with Alternate Spell Source/Spellguard/War Weaver, and that's discussed at length in the pertinent handbook.

I'm not sure what else the FS deserves that isn't addressed by just treating it as a bad Cleric variant.

[Fax Celestis]

Okay, so if we compare the cleric to the favored soul (which is the most direct comparison we can come up with, here's the differences:

{table=head]- | Cleric | Favored Soul | Victor
BAB | 3/4 | 3/4 | Equal
Fort | Good | Good | Equal
Ref | Bad | Good | Favored Soul
Will | Good | Good | Equal
Spellcasting | Prepared | Spontaneous | Equal-ish
Spellcasting Stat | Wis | Wis/Cha | Cleric
Spells Known | Whole list | Limited by level | Cleric
Spell Level Access | (Level+1)/2 | Level/2 | Cleric
Domains | Yes | No | Cleric
Turn Undead | Yes | No | Cleric
Weapons | All Simple | All simple + deity's | Favored Soul
Armor | Heavy | Medium | Cleric[/table]

All in all, the cleric's features are better than the favored soul's. Lack of turn undead means no powering divine or devotion feats. Lack of domains means loss of an expanded spell list and some pretty excellent options. Slower spell access from a limited selection of spells known severely hampers a favored soul's flexibility, and their dependence upon two stats instead of one makes keeping up more difficult. Yes, you can take Dynamic Priest, but then you're a feat behind (three feats, actually, considering the cleric gets two domains and the favored soul doesn't).

What it boils down to, for me, is that if the favored soul had been printed in core and the cleric in CDiv, people would ban the cleric for being omgbrokezorz nearly universally.

[Spore]

I just compared the PF oracle and the favored soul and yeah: They're bad, mon.

[SassyQuatch]

How can you take them seriously, what with those red noses and giant feet.

...no, wait. That's gnomes. Never mind.

[HolyCouncilMagi]

How can you take them seriously, what with those red noses and giant feet.

...no, wait. That's gnomes. Never mind.

I take my Gnome Favored Souls very seriously, thank you very much.

[Psyren]

Just backport the PF Oracle. They're SAD, and even get the cure spells for free instead of having to burn spells known on them like the FS does.

[Thanatosia]

With Versatile Spellcaster, Highten Spell, and some way to add Knowledge Religion to their skill list (without removing knowledge arcana), they make a fun Mystic THurge with a Sorceror IMO.

[Ansem]

They only have sorcerer only stuff in splat, but sorcerers are played in core only games. It favoured souls were a core class they would receive more recognition.

In experienced groups I see more Sorcerers than Wizards honestly and there is no book limit.

[Felyndiira]

Unlike the FS, Sorcerers also are SAD, and the wizard list (unlike the cleric list) is actually versatile - with diverse spells that can function in multiple situations. Thus, choosing a subset of the wizard list for spontaneous casting doesn't hurt as much as being forced to choose within the cleric's list.

That, added to the lack of domains AND turn undead, pushes them down by quite a bit. Domains are a big part of this since they add considerable versatility to a cleric, and the favored soul can't even burn a spell known on their spells. In comparison, the wizard is only a few bonus feats ahead of the sorcerer, and most of those probably don't matter anyway due to prestige classes.

The pathfinder Oracle is pretty much what the favored soul should have been. If that was printed in 3.5 instead of FS, you'd see a lot more people playing it.

[ArqArturo]

Funny enough, even the I-know-it-all spellcasters (beguiler, dread necro, warmage) can be better than the FS, via Arcane Disciple.

[Carth]

Just backport the PF Oracle. They're SAD, and even get the cure spells for free instead of having to burn spells known on them like the FS does.

I agree with this route, plus oracles have much more potential for an interesting character, in terms of being able to spin fluff out of the crunch.

[Spore]

In experienced groups I see more Sorcerers than Wizards honestly and there is no book limit.

They're easier to use. WAAAAAY easier. If you are terrible at preparing your spells, sorcerers win.

[Snowbluff]

Just backport the PF Oracle. They're SAD, and even get the cure spells for free instead of having to burn spells known on them like the FS does.
Or don't bother. UA has spontaneous divine caster variants, which adds a cleric's domain spells to their lists of spell known. :smalltongue:

[dspeyer]

As a big fan of the UA spontaneous cleric, I dislike Favored Soul because:
It hardly matters which god you serve. This should be the heart of any divine class, but favored souls of Obad-Hai and Boccob have no mechanical differences. Even favored souls of Heironious and Erythnul differ in which one-handed weapon they get bonuses with, the color of their wings and the metal that bypasses their dr at level 20. Contrast spontaneous cleric, where domains are a significant fraction of spells known.
Dead levels. The sorceror and spontaneous cleric have no class features after first level, but they have no dead levels besides 2nd. The favored soul has every odd level (except first) nearly dead.
Getting spells late. Yes, the sorceror does too, but favored soul is already MAD and casting from a restricted list, so this isn't a needed balance thing. It's really annoying if you're interested in any PrCs.

[Seerow]

Or don't bother. UA has spontaneous divine caster variants, which adds a cleric's domain spells to their lists of spell known. :smalltongue:

So much this. Spontaneous cleric is my go-to divine caster.

[nedz]

Someone asked about a Favoured Soul Handbook ?
Here you go:

Play a Spontaneous Cleric



As a big fan of the UA spontaneous cleric, I dislike Favored Soul because:
it hardly matters which god you serve. This should be the heart of any divine class, but favored souls of Obad-Hai and Boccob have no mechanical differences. Even favored souls of Heironious and Erythnul differ in which one-handed weapon they get bonuses with, the color of their wings and the metal that bypasses their dr at level 20. Contrast spontaneous cleric, where domains are a significant fraction of spells known.


What I find baffling about Favoured Souls is that they are chosen by a deity but never get the signature domains of that deity.

[Spore]

As a big fan of the UA spontaneous cleric, I dislike Favored Soul because:
It hardly matters which god you serve. This should be the heart of any divine class, but favored souls of Obad-Hai and Boccob have no mechanical differences. Even favored souls of Heironious and Erythnul differ in which one-handed weapon they get bonuses with, the color of their wings and the metal that bypasses their dr at level 20.


Opinionated. I prefer the oracle because in that way I can play a non-druid divine spellcaster without that annoying worship crap.

[Snowbluff]

It's official. Spontaneous Cleric curbstomps this class.


Opinionated. I prefer the oracle because in that way I can play a non-druid divine spellcaster without that annoying worship crap.
Factually incorrect. You can be a cleric of a cause.

[Piggy Knowles]

Factually incorrect. You can be a cleric of a cause.

...isn't that still worship, but worship of a cause or concept rather than a particular deity?

[Snowbluff]

...isn't that still worship, but worship of a cause or concept rather than a particular deity?

It's not really clear how it works. You don't have anything to worship. For example, if you are a cleric of good, is worshiping goodness that much different from praising people for being nice? The only hang up I see is the praying for spells. Even though you aren't praying to anything in particular, I think it's still necessary for preparing spells. The book says you "extol" the ideal, which simply means to praise.

[Red Fel]

...isn't that still worship, but worship of a cause or concept rather than a particular deity?

But really, how is worshiping, say, "Justice," different from revering nature?

That's right, Druids, I went there.

[Xuldarinar]

Favored souls are not taken seriously because there are better options out there. You could certainly make a viable favored soul, bring it to the table, and have fun with it. D&D isn't a competitive game after all.

If you don't feel like putting up with the MAD of their spellcasting, just select spells that don't require saves and drop Wis. Granted, this will reduce your options further but if you focus on buffing yourself then it shouldn't be that big of a problem.

The Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization can certainly help, but if thats your goal it is better the play a fighter, which in of itself isn't bad but… again there are better things. There are some other PrCs, like pious templar, which also accomplish this but flavor is something to consider.

Unless i am mistaken, your deity's alignment and your alignment have no required correlation (though they are, fluff wise, typically within 1 step), so this aspect can make for an interesting character RP wise. I think it would be amusing to have a favored soul of a deity (or similar entity) and be at odds with them in terms of alignment, though still following aspects of their doctrine.

Certainly make use of Faith Healing, Knowledge Specialty, and Exalted/Vile Presence (each from the Dead Levels II web enhancement), as the class could use everything it can get.

Unless one's heart is set on favored soul, personally I'd suggest the generic (divine) spellcaster, as then you'd have SAD and could choose from a wider verity of spells. But, that is just me.

[erikun]

The basic problem is that Favored Souls are both mechanically and thematically unappealing. If they were thematically interesting, then people would play them despite the mechanics. If they were mechanically interesting, then people would try them anyways. But lacking both means that most people just won't be interested. (Being in a splatbook doesn't help, either.)

Mechanically, the Favored Soul has the same problems as the Sorcerer: spells one level late and restrictions thanks to spontaneous casting. They last the Cleric's spontaneous converstion cure/inflict wounds, meaning they need to give up one of their known spells to do so. Favored Soul is MAD, requiring both WIS and CHA, unlike the core spellcasters - and while a Favored Soul could ignore WIS (much like a Cleric ignoring CHA) they lose more out of the process. They lack turn undead, and miss out on Divine feats because of it. They lack domains, and all the bonuses with them. The class abilities for Favored Souls are generally unimpressive.

Thematically, Favored Souls don't get the domains that Clerics get. This was a great way of telling Clerics apart, as even though the Death and Fire domains may not have been impressive, they'd certainly help that Cleric stand out. Favored Souls can't spontaneously cast cure spells automatically, and so lose the sense of being healers or divine tenants like Clerics do. A lot of the Favored Soul's abilities tend to not make much sense.

"I am the Favored Soul of Umberlee, patron of the oceans. I hold her divine essence within me! I laugh at you landbound peoples, and your pathetic squabbling above the waves. What do you have, outside of the water, that could interest me?" *lv.17* "Yay, wings!"

If I were to "fix" the Favored Soul, I'd probably give them one of their deity's domains at first level - both the power and adding the domain spells to their known spells for free - and an additional domain every 4 levels or so. Domains were one of the best ideas from 3rd edition for divine characters, and it's really disappointing that the divine spontaneous spellcaster has absolutely no interaction with them.

[Psyren]

Eh, I myself see little reason to fix them when Oracle pistol whips them in both fluff and crunch, and is OGL to boot. I just end up pointing and saying "Yeah, that."

[Snowbluff]

Eh, I myself see little reason to fix them when Oracle pistol whips them in both fluff and crunch, and is OGL to boot. I just end up pointing and saying "Yeah, that."

Yeah, between spontaneous Cleric and Oracle, the favored soul can fly into the sun. :smalltongue:

[Adverb]

WotC generally doesn't hand out three good saves along with actually-good class features, and flexibility usually beats out sheer X-per-day.

That said, it might be cool to play, especially in a heavy warfare campaign like RHoD, a Favored Soul of Kord who loaded up on Melee Weapon Mastery and all of the Cleric-embarrasses-the-Fighter spells. That many spells per day means you can reliably fire off most of them in most encounters, and a warfare campaign usually gives you a few rounds for prebuffing.

[Joe the Rat]

Funny thing, FS still has its fans. My Friday Night DM is absolutely fanatic about them. I'm still trying to figure out why. Best use I came up with is combining with sorcerer for a late-to-the-party Mystic Theurge (in case you aren't allowed Archivist, I guess), or giving another Charisma class easy cure wand access.


Yeah, between spontaneous Cleric and Oracle, the favored soul can fly into the sun. :smalltongue:
But not until level 17.

[Coidzor]

Just curious. There is no handbook for them, any thread that mentions them will inevitably include how their lack of turn/rebuke and knowledge (religion) is a hindrance to trying to get all the cool divine prc, and people sometimes say not to bother and just roll a cleric. They are still a t2 class with interesting fluff, less paperwork than a cleric, and, with enough google-fu/homebrew, can wield any weapon ever. Plus Wotc have mentioned you can change knowledge (arcane) for (religion), and sacred exosist is a thing.

Oh, right, that you can jump through hoops and take levels in a PrC in order to qualify for Divine PrCs that you should be able to qualify for natively totally fixes the problem of PrC access.

Or, wait, no, it doesn't. At all. :smallconfused:

[Psyren]

But not until level 17.

I lol'ed


Oh, right, that you can jump through hoops and take levels in a PrC in order to qualify for Divine PrCs that you should be able to qualify for natively totally fixes the problem of PrC access.

Or, wait, no, it doesn't. At all. :smallconfused:

Never mind that you're looking at a minimum level of 8 for SE when optimal entry for most PrCs is 6... And if you're evil or even neutral you get to eat a big steaming pile of [noodles].

[Ansem]

They're easier to use. WAAAAAY easier. If you are terrible at preparing your spells, sorcerers win.
Nothing to do with it, but common misconception.

[Coidzor]

Never mind that you're looking at a minimum level of 8 for SE when optimal entry for most PrCs is 6... And if you're evil or even neutral you get to eat a big steaming pile of [noodles].

Well, you know, at that point it's just shooting fish in a barrel.

Imagining a Mystic Theurge with Favored Soul and Sorcerer without early entry cheese makes my soul cry though. So I suppose that's one thing they can do that most other things in D&D can't.


Nothing to do with it, but common misconception.

I always thought it just put the problem of spell selection at character creation rather than being able to tweak it as one plays and levels up as with le wizard, myself.

[Psyren]

For a Cha-based MT I would probably do Battle Sorcerer/Divine Crusader. Or just Sha'ir 20 really.

[Gwendol]

I DM a FS going into malconvoker. He's doing alright but is certainly no cleric.

[nedz]

Certainly make use of Faith Healing, Knowledge Specialty, and Exalted/Vile Presence (each from the Dead Levels II web enhancement), as the class could use everything it can get.

One problem I had with this article was this


As every favoured soul worships a god (see Religion, pg. 7 of Complete Divine), exalted presence and faith healing have been balanced by making both abilities dependant on a deity's alignment. Knowledge speciality merely offers a class skill option that was perhaps "intended" for favoured souls.

I quite like the idea of a character who has been chosen by a deity, but they don't know who that deity is — at least to begin with. This fits the Roman/Greek notions of interfering gods, and with the favoured soul class — though the designer apparently disagrees.

It also opens up the option of having a clerical character outside the normal church hierarchy which would create some interesting political role play.

[Psyren]

This is why I like Oracles. You can have all kinds of interesting concepts, like a good-aligned Oracle who is chosen by the spirits of Bones to become a necromancer, and has to constantly war with that side of herself to avoid slipping into Evil. Or an evil Oracle who becomes chosen by Life.

Or even just an Oracle who receives a mystery and doesn't know who or why is responsible - Fire could belong to any number of deities for instance, and the deity in question need not reveal themselves. This gets even more poignant if they get saddled with the Curse for no discernible reason too.

[Snowbluff]

I lol'ed

I did, too. :smalltongue:


It also opens up the option of having a clerical character outside the normal church hierarchy which would create some interesting political role play.

... that's almost word for word what the text says for cleric without deity.

[Elderand]

There is also the mystic, which is functionaly a wisdom based sorcerer with a domain

[nedz]

... that's almost word for word what the text says for cleric without deity.

But it's not the same concept.

Clerics of Deity X v Cleric of no deity
Clerics of Deity X v Favoured Soul of Deity X

[Psyren]

But it's not the same concept.

Clerics of Deity X v Cleric of no deity
Clerics of Deity X v Favoured Soul of Deity X

Agreed. Favored Souls/Oracles are capable of provoking all kinds of interesting RP opportunities by being ostensible members of the faith - heresy, heterodoxy, jealousy, corruption, or even purification.

Worshiping an ideal can cause similar, but not identical, crises of faith among the standard clergy.

[Grim Reader]

Really, the Favored Soul can't do anything that a Cleric can't do better. Its a splatbook class that is utterly eclipsed by a PHB class.

The only trick I know that a Cleric can't pull off is playing a Favored Soul of a class with an inbuilt supernatural ability like light or something, with a caster level equal to character level. That lets you qualify for Sand Shaper, and you get all those Desert Insight spells known.

Clerics going to have more spells to chose from anyway.

[Sith_Happens]

What really gets me is that, unlike the Sorcerer that just sort of ended up being worse than Wizard, the Favored Soul looks incredibly like a deliberate attempt to be worse than Cleric.

[Coidzor]

What really gets me is that, unlike the Sorcerer that just sort of ended up being worse than Wizard, the Favored Soul looks incredibly like a deliberate attempt to be worse than Cleric.

The Sorcerer it's arguable that they intended it to be worse than the Wizard because they were dumb and spontaneous casting was scary new and unfamiliar territory to them and they didn't know how to playtest or want to do so (for instance, the person who was the only person who playtested the Druid and who did so by going around and not using the animal companion except as a scout if they didn't forget that they had an animal companion and then didn't really cast spells so much as try to fight with a scimitar in melee combat that is always brought up) so they just made them worse in every way to try to compensate for the raw power of spontaneous spellcasting.

With Favored Souls it's far enough into 3.5 where they knew better or at least really ought to have, so same difference.

[Elderand]

The Sorcerer it's arguable that they intended it to be worse than the Wizard because they were dumb and spontaneous casting was scary new and unfamiliar territory to them and they didn't know how to playtest or want to do so (for instance, the person who was the only person who playtested the Druid and who did so by going around and not using the animal companion except as a scout if they didn't forget that they had an animal companion and then didn't really cast spells so much as try to fight with a scimitar in melee combat that is always brought up) so they just made them worse in every way to try to compensate for the raw power of spontaneous spellcasting.

With Favored Souls it's far enough into 3.5 where they knew better or at least really ought to have, so same difference.

To be fair, they are also guilty of making things too strong for the same reasons (not getting the implications of the game). STP erudite for exemple.

[Coidzor]

To be fair, they are also guilty of making things too strong for the same reasons (not getting the implications of the game). STP erudite for exemple.

Easier to break someone's kneecaps than to polish a turd, though. There are all kinds of interesting ways to nerf a Druid. Few ways to raise up a Favored Soul to par as something that should ostensibly be competitive with a cleric.


Agreed. Favored Souls/Oracles are capable of provoking all kinds of interesting RP opportunities by being ostensible members of the faith - heresy, heterodoxy, jealousy, corruption, or even purification.

As far as I understand it, that stuff is almost entirely dependent upon houserules or making up your own setting anyway, so that's not really something special to the Favored Souls/Oracles so much as the DM.


Worshiping an ideal can cause similar, but not identical, crises of faith among the standard clergy.

I suppose if the cleric of an ideal is a super special snowflake and the only one that's ever existed. :smallconfused:

Otherwise anyone with knowledge history or knowledge religion would be reasonably expected to know of them beyond 1st level.


But it's not the same concept.

Clerics of Deity X v Cleric of no deity
Clerics of Deity X v Favoured Soul of Deity X

Yes, one of the concepts is a complete waste of time and the other is unconnected to the deity at all beyond having the potential for similar interests/objectives.

[Sith_Happens]

The Sorcerer it's arguable that they intended it to be worse than the Wizard because they were dumb and spontaneous casting was scary new and unfamiliar territory to them and they didn't know how to playtest or want to do so (for instance, the person who was the only person who playtested the Druid and who did so by going around and not using the animal companion except as a scout if they didn't forget that they had an animal companion and then didn't really cast spells so much as try to fight with a scimitar in melee combat that is always brought up) so they just made them worse in every way to try to compensate for the raw power of spontaneous spellcasting.

That's not deliberately making them worse, though, it's trying and failing to make them equal (due to overestimating how good their main shtick is).

[erikun]

What really gets me is that, unlike the Sorcerer that just sort of ended up being worse than Wizard, the Favored Soul looks incredibly like a deliberate attempt to be worse than Cleric.
I think that was the intention, yes. They created the Sorcerer at the same time as they created the Wizard, and so they wanted the two to be equal. The methods they used for doing so - delayed spellcasting, equal spells/level only with a restricted specialist Wizard - make sense if you assume that all spell schools are equal, that losing a spell school loses some important versatility, and that spontaneous spellcasting is better than prepared.

We know this isn't the case, but the developers of the system didn't know that back in 2000.

The Favored Soul came out four years and one revision into the system, and they noticed at that point that the Cleric was noticably strong. Namely, that the Cleric could have both healing and utility "prepared" in any slot, that two domains gave them a lot of good abilities, and that Clerics had a lot of great spells thanks to those domains. They no doubt wanted to tone down what the Cleric could magically do - hence, removing the domains. In exchange, they received some Fighter-specific abilities; something that, again, would be a good deal if the Fighter was a decent class.

I have no clue why they didn't give Turn/Rebuke Undead to the Favored Soul, especially with the divine feats introduced in the book.

[Sith_Happens]

I have no clue why they didn't give Turn/Rebuke Undead to the Favored Soul, especially with the divine feats introduced in the book.

The combination of that, the split casting stat, and the lack of K(R) is what makes it look deliberate to me. In particular, the only reason I can think of for the first and last of those three things (especially together) is to specifically prevent the Favored Soul from qualifying for any of the Cleric's cool toys.

[erikun]

The combination of that, the split casting stat, and the lack of K(R) is what makes it look deliberate to me. In particular, the only reason I can think of for the first and last of those three things (especially together) is to specifically prevent the Favored Soul from qualifying for any of the Cleric's cool toys.
Yeah, spellcasters being SAD were a pretty well known "fault" of the system around that time, so the split spellcasting is another than made sense. Take a look at the Archivist - another character split between INT/WIS for spellcasting.

I think someone else in the thread mentioned that they can get Knowledge (Religion), so I don't think it was intended for them not to have it. It would make sense for some not to, as unlike the Cleric, not all Favored Souls go through a church education. But I'm fairly certain that some Favored Souls were intended to have Kno(Reli.) as a class skill.


It also wouldn't be the first time WotC dropped the ball on that point, either. Just look at the Wilder/Anarchic Initiate: Anarchic Initiate is very much a "Wilder+" PrC, but has a high Kno(Planes) requirement. Wilder's don't have Kno(Planes) as a class skill, and so can't even finish the PrC before epic levels.

[Psyren]

As far as I understand it, that stuff is almost entirely dependent upon houserules or making up your own setting anyway, so that's not really something special to the Favored Souls/Oracles so much as the DM.

"Houserules?" You can do everything I said in pure RAW and established fluff.

(Well, I can anyway.)



I suppose if the cleric of an ideal is a super special snowflake and the only one that's ever existed. :smallconfused:

Missing the point entirely. A cleric of X deity won't actually care what a cleric of an ideal is doing because, however similar they might be, they're not really worshiping the same divine source.

For example, you could have a Cleric of Healing, and a Cleric of Ilmater. Both care about tending the wounded/sick, both likely have the Healing domain and Healing related feats/items etc. But, the former could easily justify living in a palatial mansion-turned hospital, charging his patients based on their net worth, even skimming profits off the top to live a lavish lifestyle. His philosophy could be that, by partaking in the affluence that his station and abilities can afford him, he can do the most good for all by walking the halls of the mighty and politically powerful.

The Ilmateri of course would consider this anathema. They set their temples up in the most run-down and disease-ridden districts of the city, they live on the very edge of poverty themselves, they wear the simplest of garments. But, ultimately, it wouldn't really affect their worldview because they know these heathens aren't following Ilmater anyway.

Now let's look at a Favored Soul instead. They are part of the church - "hired," if you will, far outside of official channels, by the CEO himself. The clerics can't simply say "oh, well, they're not really one of us so we don't have to worry about them" - no, here are individuals that are being endorsed by the Boss, yet they don't have to really know a thing about the company mission statement, nor even follow its teachings much. Oracles and Favored Souls can't fall - a Favored Soul of Ilmater might be one of the best healers in the land, but they can also go around charging an arm and a leg (almost literally) for their services, or healing only those they feel like, or even end up joining the Zhentarim or a similarly nasty org.

Now how would you feel, as a cleric of Ilmater, seeing someone else squander and dismiss a holy gift like that? You scraped, studied and prostrated yourself for every ounce of divine power you got, and you still have to worry about messing up or missing your alloted time of day to pray or failing to honor this or that holy festival etc... whereas here is this glorified sorcerer who gets everything you got completely free of charge and doesn't even have to care about any of it. Is it any wonder that Favored Souls are "envied by their cleric cousins" or that they "find themselves at odds with them?"

[Snowbluff]

Arguing fluff, eh?

...

I just pasted over my argument with Homestuck stuff on my iPod. Just keep in mind I disagree and that I can effectively argue my point. In essence, your meandering and meaningless example is refuted by pointing out that a cleric's fluff is more affected by a table than your opinion, and that your example is easily translatable to use a cleric. Like the person you quoted was saying.

[Psyren]

If you want to jump in on this, 'Bluff, be my guest, it's a free country.

But the default fluff is that clerics can and do feel resentment/jealousy towards favored souls, and it makes complete sense to me that they do. Being jealous of a philosophy/ideal cleric seems silly in comparison because, again, they weren't hired by your CEO. At best they are tangentially related to you.

Also, ideal-clerics can fall, just like clerics of a deity can - but Favored Souls can't, even if they pull a 180.

[Snowbluff]

You are the MAGE OF JUSTICE, or you will be once you awake on PROSPIT. Once you enter the game, you will start in the LAND OF FADE AND VIOLINS, which is inhabited by SNAKES. There, the enemies drop AMBER GRIST and serve the feared Denizen HECATE, but you'll surely be able to overcome them with your trusty PLANKKIND strife specibus. Your username is mendicantGambler, and you use the TREE fetch modus.

Seriously, I think I am good. I nearly posted that. I've got magic to play and a PBP to start. Kind of sick of the thread devolving like the Warblade ones. Godspeed bro.

I'll make a point that being a favored soul or a non half elf oracle is kind of the suck if you are in a position where you don't appreciate it. You get stuck with class levels you don't want. I think a "fallen" favored soul would just multiclass out.

[Psyren]

You are the MAGE OF JUSTICE, or you will be once you awake on PROSPIT. Once you enter the game, you will start in the LAND OF FADE AND VIOLINS, which is inhabited by SNAKES. There, the enemies drop AMBER GRIST and serve the feared Denizen HECATE, but you'll surely be able to overcome them with your trusty PLANKKIND strife specibus. Your username is mendicantGambler, and you use the TREE fetch modus.

Er... Is this a reference to something? Genuinely clueless here.



Seriously, I think I am good. I nearly posted that. I've got magic to play and a PBP to start. Kind of sick of the thread devolving like the Warblade ones. Godspeed bro.

Okie.

(I don't think I was in any Warblade threads though...)

[Snowbluff]

Er... Is this a reference to something? Genuinely clueless here. It's homestuck stuff I accidentally pasted over my argument on my iPod while I attempted to insert some blue text. :smallannoyed:



Okie.

Got mana-frakked. I'll be able to watch the thread at least. ~(' .')~

[Coidzor]

"Houserules?" You can do everything I said in pure RAW and established fluff.

Either A. they're not heretics or B. they are and they don't get magical power from their deity. Or C. they have a feat which can get psychic reformation'd away which would rob them of their spellcasting ability as heretics.

So I'm not really seeing the same potential that you are.


Missing the point entirely. A cleric of X deity won't actually care what a cleric of an ideal is doing because, however similar they might be, they're not really worshiping the same divine source.

Then what was your point about Clerics of Ideals causing crises of faith in clerics of deities? Aside from the obvious and also silly idea that they'd never heard of people able to use divine magic without having a patron deity.


The Ilmateri of course would consider this anathema. They set their temples up in the most run-down and disease-ridden districts of the city, they live on the very edge of poverty themselves, they wear the simplest of garments. But, ultimately, it wouldn't really affect their worldview because they know these heathens aren't following Ilmater anyway.

So all clerics are bigots now? :smallconfused: Seems like they'd be at risk for falling(as much as a cleric can be) by sliding into bigotry while worshiping a god like Ilmater.


Now how would you feel, as a cleric of Ilmater, seeing someone else squander and dismiss a holy gift like that? You scraped, studied and prostrated yourself for every ounce of divine power you got, and you still have to worry about messing up or missing your alloted time of day to pray or failing to honor this or that holy festival etc... whereas here is this glorified sorcerer who gets everything you got completely free of charge and doesn't even have to care about any of it. Is it any wonder that Favored Souls are "envied by their cleric cousins" or that they "find themselves at odds with them?"

Well, they'd know that Favored Souls are actually weaker than they are due to not being able to use domain spells or turn undead, and if they're aware of levels and spell levels, they'd also know that ounce for ounce the Favored Soul isn't measuring up to a cleric of similar spiritual maturity and that Favored Souls are problematic for every faith, so it's not like it's just Ilmater ****ing with them or testing them.

If a cleric doesn't like going along with being cosmic whipping boy of Deity X they wouldn't have become a cleric of Deity X or stayed as one for very long, anyway. It's easier to accept that the fluff is incorrect and that Favored Souls are viewed as tragic mistakes in the cosmic plan than that clerics would be jealous of them beyond the low-level schmucks who are jealous of anyone who makes it to 2nd level spells.

[Psyren]

Either A. they're not heretics or B. they are and they don't get magical power from their deity. Or C. they have a feat which can get psychic reformation'd away which would rob them of their spellcasting ability as heretics.

They explicitly ONLY get power from a deity. But the unique nature of their creation means the deity can't revoke it, i.e. they can't fall no matter what. For the majority it doesn't matter as they follow the deity's principles, but for the ones that get cocky or disillusioned they become loose cannons. It's like making an Aleax, it's something deities have to be very careful about doing because it's possible to screw up badly.


Then what was your point about Clerics of Ideals causing crises of faith in clerics of deities?

I never said this :smallconfused: In fact, I said the opposite of this. A FS will cause such a crisis (because they are members of the church that aren't subject to any of the same rules), while a CoI won't.


So all clerics are bigots now? :smallconfused: Seems like they'd be at risk for falling(as much as a cleric can be) by sliding into bigotry while worshiping a god like Ilmater.

And wouldn't that fill you with even more resentment? You can't even get too jealous of the guys who can break the rules, because doing so might cause you to break the rules! But they still get a free pass regardless.

[nedz]

Well I said it was a RP option, nothing more (I'm sure there are other ways to play a FS). It would only really work well in religions with hierarchies and dogma, because the FS is an outsider.

Is it a shame that they nerfed the FS so much, or is the real problem that the Cleric is OP ? FS is T2 after all.

FS first appeared in MinH Oct 2003, so it was quite early into 3.5

Anyone know why they get Know(Arcana) ?

Incidental another advantage to the Cleric is greater ACF support, though there are a few for FS — some of which add spells known.

[Pluto!]

What really gets me is that, unlike the Sorcerer that just sort of ended up being worse than Wizard, the Favored Soul looks incredibly like a deliberate attempt to be worse than Cleric.
I like reading this.

Mostly because I remember the outcries over how insane the Favored Soul was for taking the monk's uniquely good frame, the fighter's unique feats, the sorcerer's unique spell mechanic (learning spells faster), and then throwing pretty unique features like nonmagic energy resistance and wings on top.

Actually, writing that, it does sound insane on paper, especially compared to the 19 blank levels on the Cleric's class feature table. I'm sure that was on the writers minds when designing the class. The only problem is that the Cleric's empty advancement table doesn't really show all the PrCs, domain features, feats and general Good Stuff that the cleric has and the FS does not.

[nedz]

Mostly because I remember the outcries over how insane the Favored Soul was for taking the monk's uniquely good frame, the fighter's unique feats, the sorcerer's unique spell mechanic (learning spells faster), and then throwing pretty unique features like nonmagic energy resistance and wings on top.

Well FS is better than Monk and Fighter and about the same as a
Sorcerer, so those arguments stand — it's just that there are better options than FS.

[holywhippet]

I think that was the intention, yes. They created the Sorcerer at the same time as they created the Wizard, and so they wanted the two to be equal. The methods they used for doing so - delayed spellcasting, equal spells/level only with a restricted specialist Wizard - make sense if you assume that all spell schools are equal, that losing a spell school loses some important versatility, and that spontaneous spellcasting is better than prepared.

We know this isn't the case, but the developers of the system didn't know that back in 2000.


Spontaneous spellcasting can be more useful depending on what the party runs into unexpectedly. For example, the wizard might load up on mind effecting spells thinking they are going to be assaulting an orc lair and want to be able to disable the strongest targets. But while breaking in they find the orcs have a few magic users who have prepared a trap in the form of undead. The wizards mind effecting spells aren't of any use against undead. A sorcerer though is more likely to have a variety of spell schools amongst their spell picks so they can ignore their mind effecting spells and focus on stuff that will actually work.

That is circumstantial though. If the DM doesn't pull any tricks like that, the wizards spell versatility will generally be more useful than the sorcerers more limited range.

[TuggyNE]

Well FS is better than Monk and Fighter and about the same as a
Sorcerer, so those arguments stand — it's just that there are better options than FS.

More specifically, there are strictly better options, or so close as makes no difference. A Beguiler is usually better than a Fighter, but in different ways; even a Wizard is a poor direct substitute. But FvS and spontaneous Clr are so very close it makes very little difference which you pick, except that one is better.