Hello/ Question about character creation

[MrUberGr]

Well hello! Pleased to meet you all! I'm George, I'm from Greece and I'm 21 y.o. I've been reading alot lately and stumbled upon this wonderful site! Thought I'd register and get some advice from you, but sheeesh! That registration form is hard to complete! :smalltongue:

We've been playing various stories in various settings through the past 3.5 years with my friends, ranging from future era to no magic, and (essentialy) top tier chars to lvl 1 grubs... We've decided to start a proper DnD 3.5 story rules and all and keep it going (we'd change often). So we are in the character creation phase, and I really need some advice.

If anyone knows Christopher Paolini's Inheritance cycle, that's what I essentially want to end up as. A Dragonrider (spellcaster/fighter on a dragon). Thinking Big! :smallcool:

I was thinking of starting as a spellcaster and then doubleclass a fighter.

My problem is on the spellcaster part... First of all Sorcerer or Wizard? I simply can't see why the Wizard is so more powerfull than the sorcerer. The sorcerer can cast more spells than the wizard, he doesn't need to prepare them, and they have the same spell list (+some exclusives to the sorc).

Secondly which schools are the best to damage. On a small run we did (4 sessions), I played conjuration + evocation with a feat to use a longsword. I was also thinking of a more evil character, by picking up necromancy instead of one of these two. How is necro's damage late game? Which of the two should I swap out to use necro?

After some more research I came across these two: Warmage (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Warmage,_Retooled_%283.5_Class%29) and Necromancer (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Necromancer_%283.5e_Class%29) are these actually official 3.5 starting classes?

The warmage is pretty much what I'd like to play (minus the dragon part), but it doesn't sound as much fun, in that I shall start out and the only thing that will advance is that it will become more powerfull.

This is pretty much it! I believe enough to start! :smallbiggrin: Anything else you could suggest to a player with limited knowledge (such as any prestige classes or other stuff) is welcome! For example I read about the dragon disciple (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Dragon_Disciple), which seems pretty interesting

[Zweisteine]

I'm no expert, but I can give you some general tips.

1. Wizard is better than sorcerer, because a Wizard can learn more spells, while a Sorcerer is always limited to a very limited number of spells known. Also, Wizards get new spell levels earlier.

2. Which schools are best for damage? Strictly, Evocation deals the most direct damage, but that is widely considered to be a very suboptimal strategy. Wizards shine, I believe, at battlefield control, support, and out-of-combat utility.
Evocation is, in fact, considered the worst school of magic to specialize in, and the best to ban when you specialize in another. Conjuration and Transmutation are considered to be the best schools, depending on party role.

3. You might want to look at the Duskblade (http://dndtools.eu/classes/duskblade/) class, which is a premade fighter/caster combo class. It is also, in my experience, a rather fun class to play. (here's (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/duskblade-handbook.html) some more info, and a duskblade guide)


Those two classes:
The Warmage is indeed a legitimate class, but that is not the official version of it. Here (http://dndtools.eu/classes/warmage/) is the official version.
The Necromancer is not a "real" class, to the best of my knowledge.

I read this somewhere in these forums: the D&D wiki is not a very trustworthy source, due to the lack of distinction between official material and homebrew.


@V When I hit "preview post," the post below was not there. When I posted two minutes later, it was below me. I must be the god of ninjas.

[holywhippet]

Ok, wizard versus sorcerer is a matter of strategic versatility versus tactical versitility. A wizard will end up with more spells known than a sorcerer as a rule. They gain two every time they level up and they can scribe new spells from any suitable scrolls they obtain or from spellbooks. This means if a wizard has a fair idea what they are going to be encountering they can customise their spells to match. A sorcerer has fewer options from obtaining new spells so they can't always prepare in advance for certain situations as well as the wizard can. However because they don't have to pick their spells each day, if an unexpected situation they can pick the best spell to cast from what they know - a wizard might have no suitable spell memorised.

Wizards also get each new level of spell one class level ahead of the sorcerer.

If you want to do raw damage with magic, evocation is the primary school for that kind of thing. Conjuration can be good though since the orb spells don't allow targets to avoid damage using evasion. Necromancy has the small problem of not working on undead.

Warmage and necromancer are both official classes provided your DM allows non-core material. Some DMs don't allow books other than the monster manual, dungeon masters guide and players handbook because of the power creep and extra rules they need to memorise.

Dragon disciple is generally considered to be a bad class because you need to be able to cast spells to be able to enter the class but it does little to make you better at casting spells.

You might want to consider being a cleric instead of a wizard at first. The ability to wear heavy armor will keep you alive longer even if you don't have as many direct damage spells.



The Necromancer is not a "real" class, to the best of my knowledge.


There is the dread necromancer class in heroes of horror and the true necromancer PrC in Libris Mortis.

[Zweisteine]

There is the dread necromancer class in heroes of horror and the true necromancer PrC in Libris Mortis.

But those (http://dndtools.eu/classes/dread-necromancer/) are (http://dndtools.eu/classes/true-necromancer/) not what was linked to.

[gorfnab]

D&D Wiki should not be trusted. Some of it is copied and pasted from sourcebooks, however most of it is homebrew (sometimes really bad and dubious homebrew).

Dread Necromancer is from Heroes of Horror. Here are some handbooks that have information on creating one.
Reanimated Dread Necromancer Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214212)
Dread Necromancer Advanced Learning Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10037.0)
Revised Necromancer Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5584)

Warmage is from Complete Arcane. Here is a handbook on creating one.
Warmages (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2816.0)

Here is a Wizard Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394) that may be of use to you.
Conjuration is a more versatile school than Evocation. Conjuration can summon, blast, teleport, and lay down battlefield control. Evocation for the most part just blasts, it has very few utility spells. Conjuration blast spells also get ignore spell resistance and saving throws more often than evocation.

A spellcaster/ fighter as mentioned in your post is sometimes called a "Gish". Here is a Gish Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8786).

[MrUberGr]

Thanks all for your answers! I've read them yet it's 2:40 am and cannot fully comprehend! hehe


Gish it is then! I'm not sure though whether I want to be fighter with some spells, or caster with some fighting skills. Guess it's a personal decision.
The Duskblade seems really interesting and I will look into it and come back with my questions!

Now, have I got this wrong; the wizard gets to choose spells from two schools, doesn't he? I said that I was playing with spells from both evok, and conj. Is this not correct? What I have in mind is being able to use some combination of evok, conj and necro.

gorfnab the guide you posted really makes me want to play wizard although that is not exactly what I had in mind. I was going for a more "damage" playstyle with some utility.

[holywhippet]

Now, have I got this wrong; the wizard gets to choose spells from two schools, doesn't he? I said that I was playing with spells from both evok, and conj. Is this not correct? What I have in mind is being able to use some combination of evok, conj and necro.

A wizard can learn spells from any school unless you take a specialist wizard. If you do take a specialist wizard you must pick two schools of magic and can't cast spells from either of those schools. You also gain a bonus spell slot which can only be filled by spells of your chosen school. The exception is divination specialisation which only requires one school to be blocked. Divination can't be blocked as a specialist.

Every time a wizard gains a new level they can learn any two wizard spells they are able to cast (which generally means they are at at or below the maximum level of spell you can cast). If you play a specialist you can't learn spells from a blocked school by this or any other means.

[gorfnab]

Now, have I got this wrong; the wizard gets to choose spells from two schools, doesn't he? I said that I was playing with spells from both evok, and conj. Is this not correct? What I have in mind is being able to use some combination of evok, conj and necro.

gorfnab the guide you posted really makes me want to play wizard although that is not exactly what I had in mind. I was going for a more "damage" playstyle with some utility.

As somewhat stated by holywhippet, a Wizard has two options (normally) when it comes to spells. They can either be generalist wizards, being able to choose and to cast spells from any school. Or they can be specialist wizards (gains extra slots usable for their specialized school), choosing one school to specialize in and banning two schools (not able to learn or cast spells from either of those two banned schools; wizards specialized in divination only ban one school).

For a "damage" blaster wizard like you are trying to make, while still keeping evocation, I would choose to specialize in conjuration (best choice) or evocation (an okay choice) and ban enchantment and probably illusion (you can acquire concealment and miss chances through magic items at a reasonable price). Normally enchantment and evocation are the first schools I ban because of most of their spells offer a saving throw to negate/half the effect and/or lack of utility. Blasting may seem like an efficient way to go in battle (blast away the opponents hit points), however in my opinion battlefield control is a better option (let's make the opponents unable to do anything and let the fighter types in the group clean up, thus saving needed resources like spell slots, and letting the rest of the group have something to do).
Here (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1765181) are (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=5890) some (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=7809) guides (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7802) for (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100499) blaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167482) mages (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191872).

[Red Fel]

I'm going to disagree with everyone on Wizard for you, and here's why - flavor.

You are basing your character on a character who could cast spells spontaneously. That is, he learned the words, and could cast the spells whenever he wanted.

A Wizard does not do that. He has more versatility, and can learn more spells, as others have said. However, he must prepare those spells each morning. A Sorcerer, by contrast, has fewer spells he may select, but may cast them spontaneously rather than preparing them. For your flavor, I would suggest Sorcerer as a full-caster.

That said, I would suggest Duskblade over either of them. Duskblade has an even more limited spell list than Sorcerer or Wizard, but he makes up for it in physical power. He has a full Base Attack Bonus progression, and gains a class ability that lets him overcome the Arcane Spell Failure chance of heavier armors. And if you're going to be a spellcaster engaging in melee, you'll need both.

[Zweisteine]

And don't forget the Focused Specialist Variant (I believe it is in the Player's Handbook 2)! It lets you ban an extra school to get twice as many bonus spell slots in your specialized school. :smallbiggrin:
(probaby wouldn't recommend that for inexperienced players)

If you need information on any Core rules, the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/) is the place to look.

Players' Handbook
Dungeon Master's Guide
Monster Manual
Unearthed Arcana
Expanded Psionics Handbook
Epic Level Handbook
Deities and Demigods

Not included: Trademarked stuff ("Product Identity"), like Mind Flayers and the actual deities

[Firechanter]

I don't mean to sound elitist or snob or anything, but if this is your first 3.5 game I advise against playing a Wizard. It is arguably the most difficult class to play. Especially if you want to be a Gish. Rather pick a Duskblade for Gish-in-a-can fun; much easier to get into.

[lytokk]

wow, I get to give advice regarding a book series I actually read. The wizards, and dragonriders in the Eragon book series to me, actually seem more closely related to psionics rather than arcane magic. At least for my thoughts, Psychic Warrior may be a better fit. The way the mages would have to be careful about opening up their minds on the battlefield, otherwise a more powerful mage would get in there and kill them by killing their mind. To me, that feels more like psionics than arcane magic.

[MrUberGr]

Well, our dm got sick and tired of the weird classes we wanted to play and we're just sticking to the basic ones. We got a druid, a fighter and a rogue. So I'm going for wizard rather than cleric, since the druid can do some heals.

Now, I've started the Order of the Stick... Needless to say it's pretty awesome. I'd like to ask what sort of Mage Vaarsuvius is, and about what level he is at the beginning. (After two days I'm at #180 :smallbiggrin:) Pretty much what I want to play, minus the fighter part, which I don't plan on getting before level 7-8 since we're only using basic classes.


wow, I get to give advice regarding a book series I actually read. The wizards, and dragonriders in the Eragon book series to me, actually seem more closely related to psionics rather than arcane magic. At least for my thoughts, Psychic Warrior may be a better fit. The way the mages would have to be careful about opening up their minds on the battlefield, otherwise a more powerful mage would get in there and kill them by killing their mind. To me, that feels more like psionics than arcane magic.

Well, indeed it was a bit different but the way of casting was pretty much the same. Words and gestures where pretty much required to cast a spell, at least for not the best mages out there! The rules where a bit different though in that, you actually run out of physical force instead of available spells. Anyway, I'm a bit of a noob in DnD but I don't think "mind fights" actually exist as they did Inheritance.


Here (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1765181) are (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=5890) some (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=7809) guides (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7802) for (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100499) blaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167482) mages (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191872).

Sorry for my nooblines but do you have something that is more baby-steps, cause I make little to no sense out of these :smallfrown:

...Would a sorc be less complicated than a wizard? There is SO MUCH MORE than making a fighter or a barbarian... ugh...

[holywhippet]

Now, I've started the Order of the Stick... Needless to say it's pretty awesome. I'd like to ask what sort of Mage Vaarsuvius is, and about what level he is at the beginning. (After two days I'm at #180 :smallbiggrin:) Pretty much what I want to play, minus the fighter part, which I don't plan on getting before level 7-8 since we're only using basic classes.


V is an evocation specialist with conjuration and necromancy (presumed) as banned schools. V is at least level 9 at the start of the comics since in strip 41 he/she casts cone of cold which is a level 5 spell. Wizards only get level 5 spell slots at level 9.

[Red Fel]

Sorry for my nooblines but do you have something that is more baby-steps, cause I make little to no sense out of these :smallfrown:

...Would a sorc be less complicated than a wizard? There is SO MUCH MORE than making a fighter or a barbarian... ugh...

The price of power, my friend. Wizards are one of the most potent and most versatile classes imaginable, because they have access to such a breadth of resources across virtually every single book. This is what makes them Tier 1 - the fact that they have access to an entire cosmos of spells. If they need something done, there are at least a half dozen spells that can do it for them.

A Sorcerer would be slightly less complicated. Your spell list is smaller, and you don't have to prepare your spells. But even that is only slightly less complicated. At the end of the day, the complexity of melee-types involves using your traditional melee tricks - tripping, disarming, bull rushing, and smacking things with a pointy stick, if I may oversimplify. The complexity of casters involves selecting from a truly outrageous list of spells, and selecting the appropriate metamagic feats to make your fireworks happen, and selecting the right PrC for the class abilities that will make your Illusions/Conjurations/Abjurations increase in CL/overcome immunity and SR/ignore ASF chance, and so forth.

Melees can optimize around a trick or two. Casters have to optimize around a library. It's hard work, but it has a bigger payoff.

[Red Rubber Band]

There is the "Mailman", which is a damage dealing focused Sorceror.

Duskblade is a pretty cool class, and flavour wise is maybe something you'd want to look at. Swinging a weapon around and channeling spells through it is awesome. Unfortunately, you're nowhere near as good as a pure spellcaster at doing it. If you get to higher levels (13+), and with a bit of discussion with your DM, they may let you take Initiate of the Seven Veils (never actually got the consensus on whether you could make this work or not). Iot7V is a full casting prestige class that allows you to put up defensive veils around you that hinder/destroy things that pass through them.

Cleric will give you the ability to, once you hit level 5 (I think), fight like a Fighter but also cast with all the power of an OP class. And wear heavy armour. And heal (but that is generally considered sub optimal).

[Ortesk]

I just today finished book 4 of the eragon series, and i get to give advice. Sweeeeeeeet


Since your core only as far as classes, im going to advise a cleric. A cleric can do buffs which function alot like wards, are fairly potent in melee, can heal, and can do blasty magic also. Now you wanna be a rider, so naturally you need a dragon. Allow me to advise at level 6 leadership feat and pick up a dragon cohort, or the dragon cohort feat but you need the draconomicon. In dnd i can see Eragon as a cleric with the dragon feat. If your DM is willing to allow PF, there is a dragon rider class which is fairly balanced, nowhere close to the cleric in power, but gives you Full BAB, some minor spells, some cool features, and a dragon mount

[MrUberGr]

OK so after some vigorous studying (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394) (I could be an actual wizard by now :smalltongue:) I've decided the following:

Human with specialization in evocation, with necromancy and enchantment banned and at some point, multiclass to fighter, ending up to a gish

-OR-

2nd option which is pretty vague atm. Some race using conjuration or transmutation, not ending up to a gish, but rather a pure caster. I think it would be a bit odd.

I need some general info as well as a)some advices for the second option.

b)When you specialize in a specific school what is the bonus you get? I've understood you get extra spells (or spells/day?) from that school. How exactly does it work? Also, you ban two schools in order two specialize in the other, but you can still learn and use spells from the 5 rest?

c)What exactly is a domain wizard?

d)Are flaws as good as this guide suggests?


Flaws: If your DM allows you to take a flaw, take one. If he allows you to take 5, take 5. These are always worth it – and naive DM’s still think they are “well-balanced”.
cause I think that they aren't so petty (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) even if they allow an extra feat

thank you for enduring me :)

[TuggyNE]

Human with specialization in evocation, with necromancy and enchantment banned and at some point, multiclass to fighter, ending up to a gish

Evocation's an unusual choice for a gish, though if you use it for resilient sphere and other battlefield control spells it's not so bad I suppose. Still, there are probably better specialties.


I need some general info as well as a)some advices for the second option.

b)When you specialize in a specific school what is the bonus you get? I've understood you get extra spells (or spells/day?) from that school. How exactly does it work? Also, you ban two schools in order two specialize in the other, but you can still learn and use spells from the 5 rest?

One extra spell per day per spell level that must be memorized from that school, as well as one extra spell known per class level from that school. And yes, specialization doesn't affect the non-banned schools at all.


c)What exactly is a domain wizard?

Instead of specializing, they take domains, which give them free spells known and a caster level boost on those spells. They don't have to ban any schools, either. If memory serves, it's mostly useful because it gives some spells known that wouldn't otherwise be available.


d)Are flaws as good as this guide suggests?

cause I think that they aren't so petty (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) even if they allow an extra feat

The thing about flaws is that they're comparatively situational; there's usually some way to mitigate their penalties most of the time, which means that most of the time you got a free feat.

[JusticeZero]

Sigh, every time a GM declares "core only", a puppy dies. The core classes are generally the most broken good or bad in the game. The casters start out really overpowered, and get more so every splat. The others start out horrible, and get somewhat better with each splat full of tricks and items, and the new classes tend to be built closer to the sweet spot of balance that the fighting core types approach with lots of add ons.

[MrUberGr]

After all it's a 32 point buy. I'll be going INT (18), Con (14), DEX (16). Although I think I would need INT (18), Con (14), DEX (14) STR (10) if I am to multiclass to fighter at some point. Right?

As for the race I'm prolly going with drow after all.


Evocation's an unusual choice for a gish, though if you use it for resilient sphere and other battlefield control spells it's not so bad I suppose. Still, there are probably better specialties.

Is it really? I was under the impression that it's the school that delivers the most HP damage. :smallconfused: What would you suggest specializing/banning for a gish? Besides, I'm not even sure I want to play gish anymore, teehee...


Sigh, every time a GM declares "core only", a puppy dies. The core classes are generally the most broken good or bad in the game. The casters start out really overpowered, and get more so every splat. The others start out horrible, and get somewhat better with each splat full of tricks and items, and the new classes tend to be built closer to the sweet spot of balance that the fighting core types approach with lots of add ons.heh, well, as I said he got tired of our weird wants! In theory wizards are the least powerful at lvl1... or am I mistaken again?

[TuggyNE]

Is it really? I was under the impression that it's the school that delivers the most HP damage. :smallconfused: What would you suggest specializing/banning for a gish?

If you're gishing, damage comes not directly from blasting spells but from your weapons, and spells generally are chosen to increase overall weapon damage or protect you from attacks while fighting. So displacement, greater mage armor, Quickened true strike, alter self to a stronger or higher-AC form, and greater magic weapon are all good examples of gish spells.

Necromancy and Enchantment are decent schools to ban for a gish, and probably just about the best, in fact. As far as specializing, I'd suggest Transmutation (for the best self-buffs), or perhaps Conjuration (for battlefield control and allies and utility) or even Abjuration (for more self-buffs and various utility).

[Subaru Kujo]

heh, well, as I said he got tired of our weird wants! In theory wizards are the least powerful at lvl1... or am I mistaken again?
It depends, honestly. Color Spray, should the Wizard be able to get it off, would be absolutely devastating.

[MrUberGr]

Ok cool, that way I can either gish, or go full "GOD" wizard. I guess you have to choose your specialization right at the start of campaign and cannot do it later on?

[Subaru Kujo]

Ok cool, that way I can either gish, or go full "GOD" wizard. I guess you have to choose your specialization right at the start of campaign and cannot do it later on?

Yeah, at the start of your wizarding career, you have to choose to specialize or not.

[MrUberGr]

Ugh, sorry for asking one after another but it's 3.40 am here and the brain is not workng properly :D. Which school would be the most noob friendly?


...and off to the char sheet I go!

[holywhippet]

Ugh, sorry for asking one after another but it's 3.40 am here and the brain is not workng properly :D. Which school would be the most noob friendly?


...and off to the char sheet I go!

I'd say transmutation. Most of the spells have simple, definable effects which don't require too much thought about how they are applied or how saving throws work. Mainly because most of the spells work on you or your allies.

[PraxisVetli]

To throw somethin crazy out there, there is the Evil Paladin variants in Unearthed Arcana.
Would get most of what you're looking for.

[Tysis]

Did you DM say core only or does he just want things that aren't from obscure sources?

If you plan to play a gish then I think a sorcadin build would serve you well

Something like Pal2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion 5/x5

This assumes you can use spellsword(complete warrior) and abjurant champion(complete mage).

Take dragon cohort(Draconomicon) or leadership, if core only, as one of your feats and you should be good to go.

[MrUberGr]

We are going to start core only. We might add books on the way, but always official.

I'm gonna go Specialized Wizard, really like the idea of playing this. All I gotta do is pick a school... I had tried Lawfull Good at some point and failed miserably. No more paladin :D

[Andezzar]

Why do you think you need to specialize? One more spell slot might be worth it at low levels, but later on even the generalist will have more than enough spell slots, and you will not have to face the problem that you will never ever be able to cast a spell that you might find particularly interesting. While the list of spells available for selection a bit shorter for the specialist, you will not have to think that much ahead to avoid huge holes in your defense or offense.

Also Lawful Good is not a school, it is an alignment.

[Tysis]

As for the race I'm prolly going with drow after all.


It's a trap, unless you're using the variant lesser drow or LA buyoff.

Thou shall not give up caster levels.


I'm gonna go Specialized Wizard, really like the idea of playing this. All I gotta do is pick a school...

Conjuration, Transmutation, and Illusion are all safe picks depending on what exactly you want your wizard to do.

[MrUberGr]

Another new rule change and a party change :smallfurious: our rogue has gone cleric and all races with no LA are allowed.

Do you think Deep Imaskar (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003b) are good race choice? I was planning on doing human for the extra feat.

The problem now is that our party consists of three bruisers, cause I think the cleric wants to go war domain, although I'm not sure.


If you plan to play a gish then I think a sorcadin build would serve you well

Something like Pal2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion 5/x5




I had tried Lawfull Good at some point and failed miserably. No more paladin :D


Also Lawful Good is not a school, it is an alignment.

My bad, wrong spacing :)

[Andezzar]

Unless you want to make many ranged touch attacks, Deep Imaskari are great for casters.

It's still Core only right? Otherwise I would suggest looking at the Elven Generalist ACF (RotW p. 157) instead of specializing. If you take the otherworldly feat, you qualify for eldritch knight and abjurant champion (with combat casting). Voilà Gish without fighter levels, BAB 17 and CL 19 at level 20.

If you have enough bruisers, just prepare spells more fitting for a God Wizard. The class features of the abjurant champion don't hurt a traditional wizard either.

[MrUberGr]

Well, it's a weird case. We're gonna start out core and then probably add stuff to it. Just gonna be able to pick from most races that don't have level adjustment

What's ACF?

I think the -2 to STR for elves is a rather big problem since I don't plan on putting any points there. Although, I could take two points out of INT and put them into STR, and end up INT (18), Con (14), DEX (14) STR (10) after the +2/-2 of the elf...

BTW Eldritch Knight needs to be proficient with all martial weapons. How the heck am I going to do that???

[Tysis]

Another new rule change and a party change :smallfurious: our rogue has gone cleric and all races with no LA are allowed.

The problem now is that our party consists of three bruisers, cause I think the cleric wants to go war domain, although I'm not sure.




That race is fine but your ranged touch attacks will be slightly less accurate.

As far as having 3 bruisers that's not a bad thing, haste will probably be your go to spell for combat. Transmutation would be a solid choice if you're still wanting to specialize. I would ban evocation, because the rest of your party seems to have plenty of damage, and either necromancy or enchantment. Focus on preparing spells that either buff your party, provide battlefield control, or provide lots of out of combat utility since your party seems to be lacking a skill-monkey.

The cleric can find traps either with the spell find traps or you can just use summons to set them off, preferably using the summon elemental reserve feat(can't remember if this is complete mage or complete arcane).

What's ACF?

I think the -2 to STR for elves is a rather big problem since I don't plan on putting any points there. Although, I could take two points out of INT and put them into STR, and end up INT (18), Con (14), DEX (14) STR (10) after the +2/-2 of the elf...

BTW Eldritch Knight needs to be proficient with all martial weapons. How the heck am I going to do that???

ACF is alternate class feature

You really don't need to worry about strength as a wizard, sure your carrying capacity will be annoying early on but that's easily fixed by asking your fighter to help you carry some stuff and getting a bag of holding later on.

Don't worry about eldritch knight if you want to play a specialized wizard, playing a gish in core only is challenging at best.

Also as a side note and I may have missed it, but what is the starting level?

[Zubrowka74]

As a wizard you'll have several option if you really want to ride dragons. Make sure you don't ban Conjuration.

[Andezzar]

BTW Eldritch Knight needs to be proficient with all martial weapons. How the heck am I going to do that???Otherworldly makes the Elf an outsider, Outsiders are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and pretty interesting if you want to use Alter Self/Polymorph/Shapechange. For non-elves there is the militia feat which simply makes you proficient with all martial weapons. Unfortunately both feats are not in the PHB and tied to certain regions of Faerun.

Very few elven subraces get -2 STR, Drow is not one of them.

[MrUberGr]

As far as having 3 bruisers that's not a bad thing, haste will probably be your go to spell for combat... your party seems to be lacking a skill-monkey.

You really don't need to worry about strength as a wizard, sure your carrying capacity will be annoying early on but that's easily fixed by asking your fighter to help you carry some stuff and getting a bag of holding later on.

Don't worry about eldritch knight if you want to play a specialized wizard, playing a gish in core only is challenging at best.

Also as a side note and I may have missed it, but what is the starting level?

3 bruisers aren't terrible but that comes at the expense of not having a skill monkey. Our previous setup was much better (2 fighters, 1 ranger 1 wizard) but DM wanted to restart.

Well we are going to start out core-only, except races and probably add stuff as we go. It's our first (almost) proper DnD so the dm thinks it would be too complicated for him to handle.

We will be starting out as level 1.


Otherworldly makes the Elf an outsider, Outsiders are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and pretty interesting if you want to use Alter Self/Polymorph/Shapechange. For non-elves there is the militia feat which simply makes you proficient with all martial weapons. Unfortunately both feats are not in the PHB and tied to certain regions of Faerun.

Very few elven subraces get -2 STR, Drow is not one of them.

Hmm cool, didn't think of that. As for the Drow, that's would I pick but dm doesn't want classes with level adjustment.

uggh... *facepalm* I meant to talk about CON not STR... damn I think I got confused with the gnome race

[Tysis]

3 bruisers aren't terrible but that comes at the expense of not having a skill monkey. Our previous setup was much better (2 fighters, 1 ranger 1 wizard) but DM wanted to restart.

Well we are going to start out core-only, except races and probably add stuff as we go. It's our first (almost) proper DnD so the dm thinks it would be too complicated for him to handle.

We will be starting out as level 1.

Hmm cool, didn't think of that. As for the Drow, that's would I pick but dm doesn't want classes with level adjustment.

uggh... *facepalm* I meant to talk about CON not STR... damn I think I got confused with the gnome race

Fortunately for you, skill-monkeys are relatively easy to for a wizard to replace. You as a wizard have knock and your cleric has the spell find traps. If your party pools some money to buy/craft wands for these spells you don't need a skill-monkey for traps and a wizard familiar can be great at scouting.

Players Guide to Faerun has a lesser drow, which have 0LA(I think you said you can have races from any book,right?)

You were probably thinking of gray elves, which do have a strength penalty along with an intelligence bonus on top of normal elf stats.

[MrUberGr]

Yep pretty much any race that doesn't have LA.

So lesser drow is this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040215a&page=2) (it's at the bottom) plus the elf bonuses, like auto-check for hidden doors etc?

[Tysis]

Yep pretty much any race that doesn't have LA.

So lesser drow is this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040215a&page=2) (it's at the bottom) plus the elf bonuses, like auto-check for hidden doors etc?

I'm pretty sure that is correct.

[MrUberGr]

Ok, so I've decided to go Conjurnation specialist aiming for Archmage.

Now, I need some suggestions on how to use my 24 skill points, (int modifier +4) and on what feat I should choose.

Also, I'm trying to decide on the race. Elf (and what subtype) human, or Deep Imaskari. Any extra insight I'd be grateful for.

[Andezzar]

Ok, so I've decided to go Conjurnation specialist aiming for Archmage.

Now, I need some suggestions on how to use my 24 skill points, (int modifier +4) and on what feat I should choose. Once you have Concentration, Knowledge Arcana and Spellcraft maximized, as a Conjurer, I would take the various planar languages to be able to give orders to your summoned creatures. If you want to take knowledge devotion, take lots of knowledges obviously (those that give information about certain creature types)

Do you take a Conjurer ACF? If So Abrupt Jaunt or Rapid Summoning?

Eschew Materials is nice to have, but probably not necessary. If you want to summon lots of creatures, Augment Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#augmentSummoning). Unfortunately this feat requires Spell Focus (Conjuration).


Also, I'm trying to decide on the race. Elf (and what subtype) human, or Deep Imaskari. Any extra insight I'd be grateful for.You cannot go very wrong with either. Just take what fits your background best. If you go elf, be a Gray Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#grayElf).

[MrUberGr]

Do you take a Conjurer ACF? If So Abrupt Jaunt or Rapid Summoning?

Eschew Materials is nice to have, but probably not necessary. If you want to summon lots of creatures, Augment Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#augmentSummoning). Unfortunately this feat requires Spell Focus (Conjuration).

ACF? foreign words :P

Our dm gave us a little gift and we don't have to worry about materials, so eschew isn't needed.

I'm believe Spell Focus [conj] is a good choice to start with, right?

[Andezzar]

ACF? foreign words :P Alternate Class Feature. Unearthed Arcana and PHB2 gives the conjurer the option to cast summoning spells as Standard Actions or teleport short distances INT modifier times a day instead of being able to get a familiar.


I'm believe Spell Focus [conj] is a good choice to start with, right?There are very few conjuration spells that actually call for a save. The summoning/calling spells are not among them.

[MrUberGr]

Back with some more noob questions about the spellbook, spellslots etc.

1)Starting out as a Conj Specialist with +4 Int, I get to know:
all level 0 cantrips, except from the two banned schools.
2+1+4 level 1 (+1 from specialization) (+4 from int)'



2)My spell slots are the basic 3+1, 4+2 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#tableTheWizard) etc etc, plus this table (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Abilities-and-Spellcasters) for my int, plus 1 for each level for being a specialist. Correct?


3)When preparing spells what is the exact restriction for being specialist? I need 1 conj spell in each spell level (1 lvl 0 spell, 1 level 1 spell etc) or just one of all the spells I take, regardless of level has to be conj?

4)Finally, can I learn spells I cannot yet cast? For example, I am level 1 and I can learn 7 lvl 1 spells atm. Can I take 5 lvl 1 and 2 lvl 2, and use them when I get to the proper level?

[Andezzar]

1)Starting out as a Conj Specialist with +4 Int, I get to know:
all level 0 cantrips, except from the two banned schools.
2+1+4 level 1 (+1 from specialization) (+4 from int)'
The number is right but the reasoning is not. Every wizard gets 3 level 1 spells and one for every point of INT bonus, so 7 in your case. Specialization does not add spells into the spellbook, and one of the two spells you get for free on each subsequent wizard level must be of the chosen school.



2)My spell slots are the basic 3+1, 4+2 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#tableTheWizard) etc etc, plus this table (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Abilities-and-Spellcasters) for my int, plus 1 for each level for being a specialist. Correct?No.
A 1st level Conjurer with INT 18 gets the following spell slots:
Cantrips (Level 0):3+11
Level 1:1+12+11
1: Must be a conjuration spell
2: For INT 18

Also why did you link a pathfinder table? the 3.5 table is here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilitiesAndSpellcasters). The values seem the same though.


3)When preparing spells what is the exact restriction for being specialist? I need 1 conj spell in each spell level (1 lvl 0 spell, 1 level 1 spell etc) or just one of all the spells I take, regardless of level has to be conj?The normal slots and bonus slots for high INT(see above) can be filled with any spell except those from your forbidden schools. Only the slots marked with 1 must be conjuration spells. Once you get access to level 2 spells (Wizard 3), the extra level 2 spell slot from your specialization you mus also be filled with a conjuration spell. and so on.


4)Finally, can I learn spells I cannot yet cast? For example, I am level 1 and I can learn 7 lvl 1 spells atm. Can I take 5 lvl 1 and 2 lvl 2, and use them when I get to the proper level?Not on level up, but a wizard can copy any sorc/wiz spell from scrolls or other wizards' spellbooks into his own, no matter if he can cast them already. Specialists cannot do that with spells from their prohibited schools.

[MrUberGr]

Okay, thank you very much for your patience.

Well (2) is the same thing only yours is much better said. So essentially, at least one spell slot has to be conjuration on every level.

And since the dm changed his mind yet again, (it's driving me nuts) I will be taking abrup jaunt.Now, we have a debate concerning it. It is stated that it is a spell-like ability yet here ([8:11:51 PM] George/Uber: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11365756&postcount=5) this person says that in the revised version it's a supernatural ability, not a spell-like.

[Andezzar]

Well (2) is the same thing only yours is much better said. So essentially, at least one spell slot has to be conjuration on every level. I thought you meant you got 6 level 1 spells.


And since the dm changed his mind yet again, (it's driving me nuts) I will be taking abrup jaunt.Now, we have a debate concerning it. It is stated that it is a spell-like ability yet here ([8:11:51 PM] George/Uber: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11365756&postcount=5) this person says that in the revised version it's a supernatural ability, not a spell-like.What's the dispute? The Erratum is pretty clear. It is a Supernatural ability that is activated as an immediate action.

[MrUberGr]

I've only found the older version of the PHB II that says it's a spell-like ability. Well, I'm afraid our dm will ban it... :smallannoyed: No save for poor 5hp wizard. :smallfrown:

[Andezzar]

So your DM allows the PHB2 but not its errata? That's weird.
Calling the ACF a spell-like ability is pretty counterintuitive, because the benefits are not like particular spells. The only functional change is that you cannot counterspell and dispel the teleportation with dispel magic. Using the same spell wasn't possible even if it was Sp, because there is no spell the teleportation effect is based on.

So in most situations it would not matter whether the ACF is Sp or Su

[MrUberGr]

It remains to be seen tonight.

Could someone help me find a description of Abrupt Jaunt online? I can't seem to find it.

The reason I'm asking is because if it's SP it triggers attack of opportunity, but if it's SU it doesn't.

[Andezzar]

Could someone help me find a description of Abrupt Jaunt online? I can't seem to find it.You probably won't, because it is not open content.


The reason I'm asking is because if it's SP it triggers attack of opportunity, but if it's SU it doesn't.Ah I forgot about that. I thought they didn't provoke AoOs because they lack verbal somatic and material components. So you are right SU is much better. Just point your DM to the Errata for PHB2 (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/PHB2_Errata.zip). So it should be clear that abrupt jaunt is a Supernatural Ability.