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Frenth Alunril
2013-11-03, 05:59 PM
So I asked for a stregth check. The player failed the jump check by about 8 feet, and since they were playing a large creature I gave them a reflex save, which was a point shy of succeeding, so I figured that's good enough for fingertips, with a successful str check they could catch themselves. Result came up, 4. The 30 points of damage they took from falling 100 ft was enough to kill them, and thats how the adventure ended in a TPK.

Now, maybe I should give you some history. The old game we ran was full of story and adventure, it went on for at least 2 years and the players grew their characters the whole time. Over powered, treasure, cohorts, the whole deal was wonderful, but in time the idea turned into the paranoia of Players VS DM. This started robbing the adventure as no NPC could be trusted, no player action was actually heroic, it was instead guarded and greedy, hoping to keep everything by not risking anything more. This poison pill called for a break.

So we all agreed that a massive dungeon crawl would be in order. They all thought it would be fun to play something akin to the Gygaxian dungeons of yore, so I committed to bringing them what they wanted and did my due diligence. I learned about things like the lack of purpose, and the poor ecology of Gygaxian dungeons, and with that in mind, I went about planning something that had a sustainable ecology, and a back story that was consistent enough to have caused for the dungeon's construction to remain along the line of a purpose. That was all well and good. And I started planning out my map. What would it look like, how would it work, where would the story points come in, etc...

I will be writing this for a long time to come, but for now, I should tell you about the terror of room 7. It was here that I learned that those stories we hear about the party tpking themselves are in fact true...

Well written dungeons include things like descriptions of how to disarm a trap, or maybe even who scrawled what where, and how the doors open. In doing so, I decided to place one insta-kill trap in room 7. It's made for a purpose and it works so well. I didn't expect that after the first person threw themselves at it, the rest of the party would join.

I was confounded when the second person went for it. Then the third person tried, and couldn't clear the gap in the jump, and fell to their death. It was unbelievable, completely avoidable, completely gygaxian, and wonderfully refreshing.

When they asked for more information about it, I had to leave them with the obvious line, "You don't know, your characters are dead."

(hahaha....)

Slipperychicken
2013-11-03, 09:11 PM
Can you tell us more about the insta-kill trap, like what the PCs saw as they entered the room?

Frenth Alunril
2013-11-03, 11:21 PM
Sure, here is my description, but first, the set up:

The PC's have just pushed on past an unusual room triangular (isosceles) with 12 free standing suits of armor, all of which were armed with swords and standing at attention. For some peculiar reason they were standing at attention facing away from the door through which the PCs entered (the PCs entered from the south of the map) along the east and west walls there are shuttered arrow slits with a tiny opening. In the center of the room was an unsealed sarcophagus complete with a well jeweled mummy who had a light crown and heavy golden gauntlets.

Their fear that the mummy would jump to life caused them to push on through the door on the other side of the room (at the corner where the east and west walls meet), the door which the 12 suits of armor are facing. Their hope was that this would lead them to some kind of talisman or device that might explain away the mummy and the 12 suits of armor.

When they open the door:
The large doors open to reveal an incredibly large cavern. For as far as you can see there are statues of men, dwarves, gnomes, what have you. All of them stand at attention, peering over the edge of their balcony, which is a good time to mention, you are standing of what appears to be a balcony over some deep and cavernous abyss. The air in here is a bit different than the last few rooms which had a freshness and the singed smell fire. Here the air is stale and timeless, as if you entered a vault undisturbed for eons. Across the abyss, for those of you who can see, there is something wonderful...

In the darkness, just beyond the well-lit reach of your torch you can make out what is either a free standing pillar, or simply some impossible mote of free floating earth. Upon the the earth is an ornate and royal throne. Upon the throne is a royal red cushion with gold embroidery. Upon the cushion is the golden and jeweled crown of a king. Much more elaborate than the crown you remember “The King of the World” wearing at your coming of age ceremony. Most prominent is the “Scepter of Time.” This, you have seen before, the "Scepter of Time" is the scepter of power, the artifact of "The King of the World," the one item given to him by the gods themselves, that draws out each minute, and pushes forward the days that the world may prosper. The crystalline rod, with all of its golden plating and intricate scrawl work seems to almost glow with it's own power...

The breakdown of the room
The room is massive, and oddly star shapped, it has 8 points. There is a mezzanine that runs the circumfrence that is roughly 10ft wide. 25 feet (across open space) from any inner most point of the mezzanine there is a 15ft wide circle for the base of the throne, it is in the center (floating magically) of the descending cavern. The players are on a balcony that has incredibly life like statues of medium size set all around it. The statues stand ready with weapons, and pear over the edge of the balcony, ready to hurl their weapons, though, they are statues so that really isn't going to happen... is it?

What transpired:
The players were rightfully suspicious of the statues, and they began to search the mezzanine. They found that there were a number of hidden doors there. They searched some more, and more after that. Then, when they decided that the only way to safely go back to the room with the mummy was with the "scepter of time," the pixie flew over to retrieve it.

A violent shredding sound of thunder startles the rest of the party! No one falls off the mezzanine, but, when they look for the pixie, he is no longer there. The thunder awakens cloakers who have rested upon the ceiling. This brings about a little skirmish.

After the skirmish, the largest character jumps the distance to the throne, trying to find evidence of what happened to the pixie. The next round of thunder doesn't wake any more cloakers, they are all dead. The last party member decides, "Well, They disappeared in a flash, I may as well try it too..." failed the jump, and... well, dungeon floors are hard.

When they asked about the throne, what happened, I couldn't give them any more information than, "You have died, make new characters."

TuggyNE
2013-11-04, 12:27 AM
And you're surprised/confounded/disbelieving… why, exactly? Your surprise reads like that of a DM who expects their players to read their mind in order to avoid a deviously subtle trap. Specifically, one which has a readily apparent purpose (alarming the cloakers), as well as a much more subtle one (instant death), and cannot be detected either before or after the fact, nor avoided. And, apparently, there were only three players, so not as much chance to see patterns.

In fact, there were really only two ways they could have avoided TPK, and only one way to avoid two deaths: they could have not explored the promise of treasure, and thus avoided death, or they could have noticed that the trap was still thundering after the cloakers were gone and leaped to the conclusion that it must not only still be active but have an additional effect not previously accounted for, which would have left a single survivor.

Under the circumstances, TPK was quite likely with all but the most devious, quick-thinking, observant, genre-aware, paranoid, and most importantly non-greedy players.

Frenth Alunril
2013-11-04, 12:41 AM
My surprise came with the rest of the party throwing themselves at the trap without probing it with a stick, or tossing a rope across the gap, or... anything, really. They are exploring a more and more confusing dungeon. They know as players that the opportunity for insta-kill is pretty real.

The cloakers waking up was going to happen one way or another, I just used the thunder as a mechanic to do it, no one tried calling down below or making and big sound, so, that was just a convenient result.

What ever happened to the 10 ft pole? (not that it would reach) but the theory of probing a thing that could very well be a trap before entering into the potential threat of the trap?

What about proper etiquette? If a commoner were found with a kings relic, that could pretty much assure their death, but even if we assume a nice and understanding world, what about the idea that those things of value might be protected?

They were very cautious until they were confronted with the treasure.

The reason I was surprised was that they all went for it, having watched the previous ones zap away. I couldn't believe it, much like I never believed the stories of the gen-con where all the adventurers died at the entrance of the dungeon. It was fun to watch it come to fruition, watching the myth burn away into experience was a reward :)

Slipperychicken
2013-11-04, 12:43 AM
"Well, They disappeared in a flash, I may as well try it too..."

D&D 3.5 has very few no-save instant death effects. They probably thought it was a teleporter (since teleporting often involves disappearing in a flash).


On Paranoia: Yeah, I usually can't get my character through a hallway without giving it a once-over with Detect Magic and poking every object and pile of dust with a 10ft pole. I can say from experience that it can get quite tedious for the other players, to the point where the DM outright says "You're not even IN the dungeon yet. The hallway has NO TRAPS." It actually wound up killing most of the party once, as my reluctance to travel through a portal (and insistence on closely examining it first) caused at least one player to get bored and attack a party member, leading to a spiral of party deaths and retirements.

Frenth Alunril
2013-11-04, 12:51 AM
...They probably thought it was a teleporter (since teleporting often involves disappearing in a flash).

Actually, I'm pretty sure that is what they assumed it was...

I was most surprised when I sent the text to the pixie that he had died. Even though he reacted where everyone could see, the rest of the party stayed in character and didn't let the meta knowledge affect their IC decisions.

Paranoia is good, when RPed with the others in the group, and not made as a series of DM questions. If the Paranoia can spread and turn into team checks and drills, that just makes RP all the better!

Marnath
2013-11-04, 12:51 AM
And you're surprised/confounded/disbelieving… why, exactly? Your surprise reads like that of a DM who expects their players to read their mind in order to avoid a deviously subtle trap. Specifically, one which has a readily apparent purpose (alarming the cloakers), as well as a much more subtle one (instant death), and cannot be detected either before or after the fact, nor avoided. And, apparently, there were only three players, so not as much chance to see patterns.

In fact, there were really only two ways they could have avoided TPK, and only one way to avoid two deaths: they could have not explored the promise of treasure, and thus avoided death, or they could have noticed that the trap was still thundering after the cloakers were gone and leaped to the conclusion that it must not only still be active but have an additional effect not previously accounted for, which would have left a single survivor.

Under the circumstances, TPK was quite likely with all but the most devious, quick-thinking, observant, genre-aware, paranoid, and most importantly non-greedy players.

I don't consider myself too devious or paranoid, but if I saw my first friend fly over the chasm and disappear in a thunderclap, and then I saw my second friend leap over the chasm and disappear in a thunderclap, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't leap over that same chasm. "They've been transported elsewhere" seems like a much less likely first reaction than "They've been horribly destroyed, maybe I shouldn't try to pass the wards here."

TuggyNE
2013-11-04, 01:08 AM
I don't consider myself too devious or paranoid, but if I saw my first friend fly over the chasm and disappear in a thunderclap, and then I saw my second friend leap over the chasm and disappear in a thunderclap, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't leap over that same chasm. "They've been transported elsewhere" seems like a much less likely first reaction than "They've been horribly destroyed, maybe I shouldn't try to pass the wards here."

I suppose it depends on how it's presented, honestly, and it's likely that subtle choices of wording would have a strong influence on reactions. (Which is classic Gygax, actually; insinuations and hidden meanings and carefully not quite saying the opposite of what you mean, and then being astonished when the players don't see through all the layers of wording.)

Frenth Alunril
2013-11-04, 02:32 AM
I suppose it depends on how it's presented, honestly, and it's likely that subtle choices of wording would have a strong influence on reactions. (Which is classic Gygax, actually; insinuations and hidden meanings and carefully not quite saying the opposite of what you mean, and then being astonished when the players don't see through all the layers of wording.)

You would have gotten a kick out of the game 3 weeks ago when they spent an hour on the safe side of the trapped door debating who was going to pull the lever that was there to disable the pretty obvious trap that was set on the door for whoever was 25ft tall and trying to smash it down from the other side.

I described the door, the type of trap, I drew a picture of what they saw, I explained it again, and finally, after an hour, they opened the door.

Arbane
2013-11-04, 02:41 AM
Paranoia is good, when RPed with the others in the group, and not made as a series of DM questions. If the Paranoia can spread and turn into team checks and drills, that just makes RP all the better!

I wonder if you'll still be saying that after the tenth time it takes them two hours to check a 60' corridor for traps.

Frenth Alunril
2013-11-04, 10:31 AM
I wonder if you'll still be saying that after the tenth time it takes them two hours to check a 60' corridor for traps.

As long as it's rp and ic, I love it. They are good guys and they love the adventure as much as I do. Anyway, that door took an hour because of bad rp, too many dm questions and not enough team work.

Jarawara
2013-11-04, 04:55 PM
This one is tricky. But I think I would have done the same thing as the last PC did.

By the description provided me by the DM, the other PC's have jumped/flew across the chasm and then disappeared in mid-air with a loud clap of thunder. DM did describe a "loud shredding sound, accompanied by thunder", but that could easily be interpreted as a shredding of the barrier of space/time, not the actual shredding of my teammates. Besides, there was no scream of agony, no spray of blood, no burnt shreds of cloth from Lord Craxnor's cloak floating down from the air. I have no reason to presume any ill fate for Craxnor. But neither can I assume all is well with my friends either - as neither of them have jumped/flown back to tell me the path is safe.

Simple solution: Go back to town, go to the tavern. If there are a couple of new people there, a pixie/sprite/littleguy and some warrior named 'Lord Baxnoir' or such, then we have to assume the first pair died and these are the replacement PC's. If nobody's there, then your friends have continued adventuring without you, and are not going to share the XP and loot they've collected.

But if you want a more complex solution, you have to consider the various possibilities.

1) There is an illusion covering where they have jumped. This both blocks my view of where they went and blocks any sound of them attempting to jump back. This doesn't explain why they pixie didn't just fly back to tell me the coast is clear, but maybe they could not at the time (for other reasons not yet explained?)

2) There is mid-air teleportal. Presumably one-way. This would explain the mid-air disappearance, and maybe that teleportation also causes the shredding sound and thunder. Lord Craxnor and Gump the Pixie even now await your arrival on the other side of the portal.

3) Your friends have died, horribly. They were shredded so violently that not even a burnt scrap of Lord Craxnor's cloak remains. Go back to town and pick up Lord Baxnoir and his little Sprite friend.

So given those three possible explanations, what would you do?

*~*

Now let me give you a more mundane scenario that came to mind as I was considering this conundrum. I was in a party of four, exploring an ancient ruin. We look through a doorway into what looks like a crypt. Three of us enter the doorway and approach the tomb. I hesitate - the door looks surprisingly sound and easily closed, and we haven't confirmed if they lock or not. I don't want it swinging shut and locking us inside, so I stay near the door to keep our escape path open.

Suddenly the door slams shut! And with me on the outside. (I did leave my mini sitting just outside the door, not on the inside.) Try as I may, I cannot force the door open again, and I'm not exactly a master at picking locks - I'm the party cleric, not the rogue.

Undead Baddie rises from the tomb, and the party must do battle with the ancient evil without aid of the party cleric. I never find an alternative way into the tomb, and when Undead Baddie is slain, the doors open automatically. Gah, I hate undead who do that. Or is it that I have DM's who do that. Same thing. All DM's are Undead Baddies.

Now fortunately neither the DM nor the other players punish me for "staying out of the fight". But I already had my punishment. My friends suffered as their most powerful member (in this situation) was AWOL, and I suffered because I basically sat around twiddling my thumbs as the rest of the party played the game. I should have stood guard *just inside* the doorway, not just outside.

*~*

So, given the four possible courses of action....

1) Join my friends on the other side of the illusionary wall.

2) Join my friends on the other side of the teleportal.

3) Join my friends... in death.

or 4) Go home.


.... I'm going to Join My Friends.

Frenth Alunril
2013-11-04, 05:40 PM
.... I'm going to Join My Friends.

Fair enough, I totally agree with that.

I probably would have just gone home. I died plenty before in my adventures with other pretty severe DMs.

I have to admit I'm pretty excited to see how they handle the next encounter with the trap having no IC knowledge of the previous situation.

Arbane
2013-11-04, 07:41 PM
Now let me give you a more mundane scenario that came to mind as I was considering this conundrum. I was in a party of four, exploring an ancient ruin. We look through a doorway into what looks like a crypt. Three of us enter the doorway and approach the tomb. I hesitate - the door looks surprisingly sound and easily closed, and we haven't confirmed if they lock or not. I don't want it swinging shut and locking us inside, so I stay near the door to keep our escape path open.

Suddenly the door slams shut! And with me on the outside. (I did leave my mini sitting just outside the door, not on the inside.) Try as I may, I cannot force the door open again, and I'm not exactly a master at picking locks - I'm the party cleric, not the rogue.


And this is why AD&D had iron spikes on the equipment list: The poor man's doorstop.

(I agree with you about joining your friends, BTW.)



I have to admit I'm pretty excited to see how they handle the next encounter with the trap having no IC knowledge of the previous situation.

If they all jump in again, they might be trying to Tell You Something.

TuggyNE
2013-11-04, 08:21 PM
If they all jump in again, they might be trying to Tell You Something.

And that something would presumably be, "I want to play, not run away from anything mysterious and somewhat scary."

Frenth Alunril
2013-11-04, 09:13 PM
And that something would presumably be, "I want to play, not run away from anything mysterious and somewhat scary."

Lets be fair, everyone agreed to a gygxian game, and no one probed anything or cast detect magic.

:)

Gavran
2013-11-04, 11:48 PM
That is indeed a fair point. Many posters have pointed out reasons why Gygaxian dungeons are kind of silly, but you did say from the start that was your aim (and they knew that), and keeping that in mind your players were kind of careless. Not that you should care that much what someone who hadn't even posted in this thread yet thinks, but you did remind me of that, and thus cause me to switch perspectives.

tyckspoon
2013-11-05, 01:06 AM
Lets be fair, everyone agreed to a gygxian game, and no one probed anything or cast detect magic.

:)

That is kinda suicidal.. I mean, the description you gave screams Obvious Trap (so does the mummy room.) It's just a question of what *sort* of trap. I probably would have spent several hours (in-game, possibly real-time as well) throwing things at the center island and breaking or restraining statues in the near-certainty that they were going to come to life before risking an actual PC on a scouting mission. :smallamused:

TuggyNE
2013-11-05, 03:30 AM
Lets be fair, everyone agreed to a gygxian game, and no one probed anything or cast detect magic.

They didn't probe the actual trap, you mean; seems like they probed whatever they could reach.

But not using detect magic seems silly, yes. Did they have it available?

Frenth Alunril
2013-11-05, 09:35 AM
That is kinda suicidal.. I mean, the description you gave screams Obvious Trap (so does the mummy room.) It's just a question of what *sort* of trap. I probably would have spent several hours (in-game, possibly real-time as well) throwing things at the center island and breaking or restraining statues in the near-certainty that they were going to come to life before risking an actual PC on a scouting mission. :smallamused:

Yep, that is exactly the kind of game we wanted to play... and they did throw some things into the room, the Pixie flew high over the mummy to see it and hopefully be away from it if it were to jump to life. They discussed tying the feet of the armor, etc... It was really fun!


They didn't probe the actual trap, you mean; seems like they probed whatever they could reach.

But not using detect magic seems silly, yes. Did they have it available?

They were running gestalt classes on monster builds. There was a swordsage/scout pixie, a totemist/barbarian yakfolk, and a fighter/thief half-ogre. The pixie had a spear, but none of the players have yet learned to touch questionable things with other things (the proverbial 10ft. pole) so instead of actually probing the trap, they flew right in and fell for it.

As to the detect magic, they had an NPC cleric with them which they were controlling, but at this point they had forgotten about him, I am assuming.

Because of the meat grinder aspect of the dungeon, we have decided to go with straight classes instead of the gestalt builds, as they are a little over-much for building and throwing away.

But this next time we have a Scout, a Cleric and a Druid! (there is another player, a coure swashbuckler/sorcerer, he's just been having trouble getting in on the game. we play from 4 am to 7 or 8am. for the rest of the guys, it's afternoon or night, but not here, CST)

SiuiS
2013-11-05, 10:55 AM
My surprise came with the rest of the party throwing themselves at the trap without probing it with a stick, or tossing a rope across the gap, or... anything, really. They are exploring a more and more confusing dungeon. They know as players that the opportunity for insta-kill is pretty real.

The cloakers waking up was going to happen one way or another, I just used the thunder as a mechanic to do it, no one tried calling down below or making and big sound, so, that was just a convenient result.

What ever happened to the 10 ft pole? (not that it would reach) but the theory of probing a thing that could very well be a trap before entering into the potential threat of the trap?

What about proper etiquette? If a commoner were found with a kings relic, that could pretty much assure their death, but even if we assume a nice and understanding world, what about the idea that those things of value might be protected?

They were very cautious until they were confronted with the treasure.

The reason I was surprised was that they all went for it, having watched the previous ones zap away. I couldn't believe it, much like I never believed the stories of the gen-con where all the adventurers died at the entrance of the dungeon. It was fun to watch it come to fruition, watching the myth burn away into experience was a reward :)

Why did the Pixie die?

They can fly, so they wouldn't fall to their death. They don't seem to be zapped anywhere, or at all; you skip from "character declares move action" to "they are already dead" without any clear indication of how they died.

Did they get pushed down?
Did they get teleported somewhere?
Did they jump into a black hole hidden by an illusion?

You're not actually telling us anything here. The entire premise so far is "I've read about how old DMs were jerks, so is try it. I told my players they die for no reason and without explanation, and then am surprised they explore that to figure out what happened".

A thunderclap is a sound. You don't dissapear in one. So a guy vanishing and a loud noise, not very indicative. And we still haven't actually been told what the trap was.

Frenth Alunril
2013-11-05, 11:39 AM
...Did they jump into a black hole hidden by an illusion?


You are quite observant.

To reveal the trap so well made ruins the prestige, but you are on the correct path.

Ziegander
2013-11-05, 11:54 AM
You are quite observant.

To reveal the trap so well made ruins the prestige, but you are on the correct path.

Oh my god... :smallannoyed:

Friv
2013-11-05, 12:11 PM
You are quite observant.

To reveal the trap so well made ruins the prestige, but you are on the correct path.

Wait, are you deliberately withholding details from us, too?

We aren't playing a Gygaxian dungeon. There's no prestige to ruin, just a story without details.

Arbane
2013-11-05, 12:31 PM
You are quite observant.

To reveal the trap so well made ruins the prestige, but you are on the correct path.

Sphere of Annihiliation under an illusion?

Frenth Alunril
2013-11-05, 12:47 PM
Hehehe...

Give them a few days, to get back to the place, with their new casters, and what not, and I'll reveal, but Friv and Ziegander, remember, my players also know about this thread. Let them poke and prod and learn for themselves, without me revealing too much.

Arbane, shh... *wink-wink*

I'll lay out the entire trap after they have given it a once over.

TuggyNE
2013-11-05, 05:18 PM
remember, my players also know about this thread.

Standard practice in such cases is to put a disclaimer warning the given players off in the first post.

RochtheCrusher
2013-11-05, 08:40 PM
So, given the four possible courses of action....

1) Join my friends on the other side of the illusionary wall.

2) Join my friends on the other side of the teleportal.

3) Join my friends... in death.

or 4) Go home.


.... I'm going to Join My Friends.

Early in the campaign I am running, my players had this exact choice, after one of their number touched a crystal pin (holding up a tavern job posting) and vanished in a flash of light. One by one (with each being more and more screwed if they allowed themselves to be left behind), they made the choice indicated above.

In my game, they were correct to do so, and "taking reasonable precautions" like casting Dispel Magic on the pin would have split the party, by continents.

If the correct answer to your puzzle is to abandon your friends to their deaths (or to never try anything in the first place)... well, you might want to rethink your puzzle. When you encourage behavior, you get more of it.

I got more courage, more trust, and an instant party bond out of my players. I wonder what sort of behavior you'll find you've encouraged.

TuggyNE
2013-11-05, 09:24 PM
I got more courage, more trust, and an instant party bond out of my players. I wonder what sort of behavior you'll find you've encouraged.

Well, for what it's worth, the epitome of Gygaxian gaming is all about metagaming, paranoia, genre-savviness, and innumerable (mostly mundane) preparations for all manner of things in order to shift the odds from being vastly against you to somewhat in your favor. Both DM and players are encouraged to be as "unfair" as possible, and characters are, at least at low levels, highly disposable.

Telok
2013-11-06, 01:31 AM
Heh, my players do this sort of thing too.

At 10th level the PCs were getting the pieces of an artifact sword and needed the last one. An allied NPC sorcerer had divined that it was in the crypt of a lich named Drath. The NPC cast Sending and told the PCs where to find the dungeon, the name of the lich, and that the lich was a nasty wizard before he died and they needed to be careful.

Without access to Kn:History, or Kn:Nobility the players set off straight for the dungeon without any preparation. Now remember this:

They had to pass a magic college which sold potions and scrolls and had a mural of important magical events and people in the entry way, the lich (from when he was alive) was pictured in that mural and there was a book about him in the library.
They had to pass the local king's castle with the official state archives run by a 13th level wizard and a 13th level archivist, there were records of the events surrounding the lich's transition into undeath in that archive.
They passed within two days journey of a magic research library, there was information and some details of two custom spells that the lich had researched before he died.
They passed through a fort guarding a pass where there was a bard (who explicitly favored historical information and plays) and three other casters who could recognize the name of the lich and warn them.

The entry area consisted of four crypts, each with a specter and separated to make the fights easy. The first specter, in a 1 vs 5 fight, killed one person and drained another down to 4th level. It turned out that they had sold the ghost touch sword a few weeks earlier because it "wasn't useful." After they got through those they hit the trap. This dungeon is miles underground, in the middle is a pit, 90 feet across and thousands of feet up and down. Across the middle is a three foot wide stone bridge, unsupported and three inches thick it had wet spots where water dripped down from above.

PC: "I walk across."

No preparation, no detection, no searching, no curiosity. So the (Premanancy: Fly) Prismatic Spray Living Spell got a surprise round. One death, one petrification, one insanity, and one UMD'ed Raise Dead scroll later they won. Barely.

Then Mr."I walk across" jumped off the bridge (psychic warrior with the Ectoplasmic Form power) to go fetch his favorite magic mace. A thousand feet later he hit black, opaque, 34 degree Fahrenheit water. Twenty four seconds later an Evolved Vampire Giant Octopus destroyed him.

Over the next several sessions, and multiple trips back to town to recruit more characters, another four or five characters died to that octopus (in three seperate encounters) as the party kept trying to recover the first PC's gear and/or fooling around in the icy black water because they couldn't figure out how to get across without going swimming.

Those two custom spells the lich researched were "Apply Undead Template to an Animal or Magical Beast" and "Control Ooze." They never did kill that octopus, it's still down there somewhere.

SiuiS
2013-11-06, 04:03 AM
Oh my god... :smallannoyed:

Oh, no no no. I'll support him on this one, that's almost literally by-the-book for these dungeons. I was only irate that, as said, details were being hidden from us, too. But those are the best traps. My personal favorite in 3e was a thin wall of antimagic in front of a shop vendor. Wizard tries to kill him, fails miserably, vendor laughs and launches a (heavily enchanted) crossbow bolt into the wizard.

Or the giant interdimensional portal that the enemy army is opening, actually being a wall of dispellation covered by an illusory screen, so the party flies in ahead, thinking they can cut off the army, and end up falling due to dispelled flight into an angry army that was waiting for them.


Well, for what it's worth, the epitome of Gygaxian gaming is all about metagaming, paranoia, genre-savviness, and innumerable (mostly mundane) preparations for all manner of things in order to shift the odds from being vastly against you to somewhat in your favor. Both DM and players are encouraged to be as "unfair" as possible, and characters are, at least at low levels, highly disposable.

Aye, Gygaxian play was about stacking the deck. The original D&D game was about logistics and gambling.

SassyQuatch
2013-11-06, 04:36 AM
Story sounds too much like "Haw haw! Stupid players fell for my trap that I never gave any sort of good warning about and died when they stayed in character instead of meta-gaming. Suckers!" to me.

SiuiS
2013-11-06, 06:04 AM
Story sounds too much like "Haw haw! Stupid players fell for my trap that I never gave any sort of good warning about and died when they stayed in character instead of meta-gaming. Suckers!" to me.

Like we said, Gygaxian.

Frenth Alunril
2013-11-06, 09:29 AM
Early in the campaign I am running, my players had this exact choice...

I would submit that the choice is different, as your magic pin is attached to a job offer, and my throne of doom was set in a location that was hard to reach, behind a room the party was able to deduce as a kill room, which was behind a trapped door which they entered from the safe side, the logical choice of action would be to treat everything as though it were highly suspect, not an open offer of employment.

That being said, I see the mechanic of vanishing people being the same.


If the correct answer to your puzzle is to abandon your friends to their deaths (or to never try anything in the first place)... well, you might want to rethink your puzzle. When you encourage behavior, you get more of it.

Context, in this case, is the problem with the puzzle, because it is not a puzzle, its a kill-all, "electric insect trap." a proverbial flame which draws the moth. the trap is made to draw people in to kill them, there is no disarming it, and there is no reward after disarming it.

(Spoilers follow.)

The trap is intended for the creatures that come from the other side of the dungeon. They are seeking an artifact, they reach this place, find their artifact, and jump to their deaths. When the players enter from their side of the dungeon, they see an artifact they recognize, know the location of, etc... this should put them off the trap. Yet they still jumped at it. It's a little crazy, but it is what it is. The trap works on them because they lack context. after they get past this, they will learn more, and eventually the whole story of the dungeon will be revealed, giving them context for the trap so they understand as a whole why it is there, and what part it plays in the dungeon, etc.

(Spoilers continue...)

The trap itself is, as Arbane suggested, a SoA under an illusion. It is surrounded by a ring, at the 15 foot diameter (imagine a 15 ft ring enchanted as an immovable rod) to allow for people to put a bridge or rope across without disrupting the illusion. When someone flies across to gather the Scepter, they touch the SoA. When someone jumps across, they catch themselves on the ring, if they save against the illusion, they get a balance check to stay on the ring, but most people will topple into the center of the ring, and the SoA takes over.

Frenth Alunril
2013-11-06, 09:37 AM
Story sounds too much like "Haw haw! Stupid players fell for my trap that I never gave any sort of good warning about and died when they stayed in character instead of meta-gaming. Suckers!" to me.

Actually, it's less bragging about the TPK and more astonishment at the fact that it was so easy to duplicate. I always heard of a Sphere of Annihilation in one of Gygax's dungeons that people would invariably put their hand in. The rules for that sphere didn't pull the whole body in with it, but, still, everyone did it.

I was surprised that it seems to work in almost all cases. That being said, I should have found a better way to communicate my astonishment.

Jay R
2013-11-06, 10:18 AM
They asked for a traditional Gygaxian dungeon, got a traditional Gygaxian result, and responded with the traditional Gygaxian PC complaints.

What's the issue here? The system worked.

Friv
2013-11-06, 10:42 AM
They asked for a traditional Gygaxian dungeon, got a traditional Gygaxian result, and responded with the traditional Gygaxian PC complaints.

What's the issue here? The system worked.

Yeah, despite my earlier frustration, that all seems pretty above-board. If you go into a Gygaxian dungeon, and you don't follow the genre conceits, you get dead.

Frenth Alunril
2013-11-06, 11:55 AM
They asked for a traditional Gygaxian dungeon, got a traditional Gygaxian result, and responded with the traditional Gygaxian PC complaints.

What's the issue here? The system worked.

No real issue, it was really fun!

SiuiS
2013-11-06, 11:57 AM
See? As soon as it's made clear, everyone is like" yeah that's cool" XD

SassyQuatch
2013-11-06, 12:54 PM
Like we said, Gygaxian.
Pfft... Gygaxian dungeon players would totally meta-game. Unspoken rules, DM is trying to kill your PCs, and the PCs are "accidentally" trying to derail the DMs plots.

It was a more pure time. Distilled you might say, and quite evil. Distilled evil. And that's not even getting into the PCs.

Jacob.Tyr
2013-11-06, 01:24 PM
Yeah, this is fine if the players know what's going on. I once had a DM spring Tomb of Horrors on us in the first session. We made it into the first hallway before the party quit, after barely surviving one of the false entrances. Sadly once we figured out what was going on I was really excited to try and beat it.

Waar
2013-11-06, 03:00 PM
So I asked for a stregth check. The player failed the jump check by about 8 feet, and since they were playing a large creature I gave them a reflex save, which was a point shy of succeeding, so I figured that's good enough for fingertips, with a successful str check they could catch themselves. Result came up, 4. The 30 points of damage they took from falling 100 ft was enough to kill them, and thats how the adventure ended in a TPK.

I will be writing this for a long time to come, but for now, I should tell you about the terror of room 7. It was here that I learned that those stories we hear about the party tpking themselves are in fact true...

Then the third person tried, and couldn't clear the gap in the jump, and fell to their death. It was unbelievable, completely avoidable, completely gygaxian, and wonderfully refreshing.


How is this related to that?


spoilers
Flying over a chasm is hardly the most stupid thing available to a "non-magical" flyer, and once one third of the party's dead, the rest following is hardly a surprise. "unbelievable, completely avoidable, completely gygaxian" it may be the later two, but it sure isn't the first. :smalltongue:

The Glyphstone
2013-11-06, 03:53 PM
Heh, my players do this sort of thing too.

At 10th level the PCs were getting the pieces of an artifact sword and needed the last one. An allied NPC sorcerer had divined that it was in the crypt of a lich named Drath. The NPC cast Sending and told the PCs where to find the dungeon, the name of the lich, and that the lich was a nasty wizard before he died and they needed to be careful.

Without access to Kn:History, or Kn:Nobility the players set off straight for the dungeon without any preparation. Now remember this:

They had to pass a magic college which sold potions and scrolls and had a mural of important magical events and people in the entry way, the lich (from when he was alive) was pictured in that mural and there was a book about him in the library.
They had to pass the local king's castle with the official state archives run by a 13th level wizard and a 13th level archivist, there were records of the events surrounding the lich's transition into undeath in that archive.
They passed within two days journey of a magic research library, there was information and some details of two custom spells that the lich had researched before he died.
They passed through a fort guarding a pass where there was a bard (who explicitly favored historical information and plays) and three other casters who could recognize the name of the lich and warn them.

The entry area consisted of four crypts, each with a specter and separated to make the fights easy. The first specter, in a 1 vs 5 fight, killed one person and drained another down to 4th level. It turned out that they had sold the ghost touch sword a few weeks earlier because it "wasn't useful." After they got through those they hit the trap. This dungeon is miles underground, in the middle is a pit, 90 feet across and thousands of feet up and down. Across the middle is a three foot wide stone bridge, unsupported and three inches thick it had wet spots where water dripped down from above.

PC: "I walk across."

No preparation, no detection, no searching, no curiosity. So the (Premanancy: Fly) Prismatic Spray Living Spell got a surprise round. One death, one petrification, one insanity, and one UMD'ed Raise Dead scroll later they won. Barely.

Then Mr."I walk across" jumped off the bridge (psychic warrior with the Ectoplasmic Form power) to go fetch his favorite magic mace. A thousand feet later he hit black, opaque, 34 degree Fahrenheit water. Twenty four seconds later an Evolved Vampire Giant Octopus destroyed him.

Over the next several sessions, and multiple trips back to town to recruit more characters, another four or five characters died to that octopus (in three seperate encounters) as the party kept trying to recover the first PC's gear and/or fooling around in the icy black water because they couldn't figure out how to get across without going swimming.

Those two custom spells the lich researched were "Apply Undead Template to an Animal or Magical Beast" and "Control Ooze." They never did kill that octopus, it's still down there somewhere.

How many casualties were involved in getting the other two pieces of Demonslayer?

Telok
2013-11-06, 06:13 PM
How many casualties were involved in getting the other two pieces of Demonslayer?

Two people died getting the first piece, but that was because they stayed in the same room as an invisible Hellcat and sat around trading full attacks without trying to negate it's invisibility. I think they were level six then.

Nobody died getting the second piece. That was a brilliant bit of snatch-and-run that I didn't expect, it worked wonderfully. That was when they were level eight.

Frenth Alunril
2013-11-06, 07:24 PM
How is this related to that?

Flying over a chasm is hardly the most stupid thing available to a "non-magical" flyer, and once one third of the party's dead, the rest following is hardly a surprise. "unbelievable, completely avoidable, completely gygaxian" it may be the later two, but it sure isn't the first. :smalltongue:

The jump, the half ogre tired to make a jump across a gap to follow her friends, both of whom were devoured by the Sphere. I didn't have to eat her up with it, because jumping that far is a pretty dangerous thing to do anyway. They are related because they are part of the trap. The pixie flew, that was easy enough. The yakfolk jumped, but the thief was not able to make it with her jump.

it wouldn't make sense for me to make the trap very simple, I had to make it more difficult so that they couldn't just stumble into it. the gap, for non flying characters, pretty much guarantees that whoever gets there will fall into it and not be able to avoid it, also allows for me to make sure that those who don't get there also meet a similar fate.

Of special interest, how would you address the vow of poverty violation picking up the scepter would have for the pixie?

awa
2013-11-06, 07:57 PM
personally as long as the pixie didn't try and use the object no violation.

"To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions,"

By my reading of the feat you may carry as much stuff as you want if you don't use it or gain a benefit from it.

edit
otherwise you run into the stupid problem of the vow pc falling if he picks up the gold to carry it to an orphanage.

Arbane
2013-11-06, 08:50 PM
Yeah, this is fine if the players know what's going on. I once had a DM spring Tomb of Horrors on us in the first session. We made it into the first hallway before the party quit, after barely surviving one of the false entrances. Sadly once we figured out what was going on I was really excited to try and beat it.

The Tomb of Horrors is an intelligence test.

If you voluntarily enter it, YOU FAILED.

Frenth Alunril
2013-11-06, 10:14 PM
personally as long as the pixie didn't try and use the object no violation.

"To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions,"

By my reading of the feat you may carry as much stuff as you want if you don't use it or gain a benefit from it.

edit
otherwise you run into the stupid problem of the vow pc falling if he picks up the gold to carry it to an orphanage.

Pretty sure there is something in there about not holding a magic item for more than 1 round. And there are issues with carrying the gold, even to an orphanage. The VoP is some heavy hitting restrictions.

nedz
2013-11-06, 10:40 PM
You may not use any magic item of any sort, though you can benefit from magic items used on your behalf—you can drink a potion of cure serious wounds a friend gives you, receive a spell cast from a wand, scroll, or staff, or ride on your companion's ebony fly. You may not, however, "borrow" a cloak of resistance or any other magic item from a companion for even a single round, nor may you yourself cast a spell from a scroll, wand, or staff. If you break your vow, you immediately and irrevocably lose the benefit of this feat. You may not take another feat to replace it.
So you can ride on someone else's ebony fly, but not wear someone else's cloak :smallconfused:
It seems to be linked to item activation ?
Maybe this question should be posted over on the 3.5 sub-forum, you might get more answers ?

awa
2013-11-06, 10:52 PM
as far as i can find it does not say anything about losing your powers if you hold a magic item just if you own it or use it.

the same for money you can carry whatever you want as long as you don't own it or use it.

Frenth Alunril
2013-11-06, 10:59 PM
as far as i can find it does not say anything about losing your powers if you hold a magic item just if you own it or use it.

the same for money you can carry whatever you want as long as you don't own it or use it.

As a lawyer, I would like to see the argument that possession is not ownership. As a dm, we agreed (the player and I) that directing the use of money was taking ownership of it and was a violation. Further, handling a magic item for more than one round, weather for magical bonus or not, was also a VoP violation.

A little harsh, I know, but, home brew, rule 0 and all that.

awa
2013-11-06, 11:28 PM
By that logic a thief owns anything he steals by virtue of having picked it up.
If my buddy asks me to pick up his bag i don't own it just cause i helped him carry it.

If you want to make a house rule designed to make a bad option worse its your choice but it does not make it raw and it certainly doesn't make it rai.

Jay R
2013-11-06, 11:31 PM
As a lawyer, I would like to see the argument that possession is not ownership. As a dm, we agreed (the player and I) that directing the use of money was taking ownership of it and was a violation. Further, handling a magic item for more than one round, weather for magical bonus or not, was also a VoP violation.

A little harsh, I know, but, home brew, rule 0 and all that.

This makes sense to me, and is clearly aimed at trying to ensure that the players will not be tempted to play word games to avoid the intent of the rules.

If I were the DM, I might let him carry somebody else's equipment, at the request of the owner. But I would not suggest it to either player.

awa
2013-11-06, 11:44 PM
hes arguing (as far as i can tell) that a vop character is both required to donate money (as written in the rules) but is not only unable to pick up the money he is required to donate but is not allowed to give the money to a worthy cause.

That's not about preventing abuse that's about trying to screw over vop character even more then they already are.

DeadMech
2013-11-07, 12:15 AM
My understanding is that the character is required to direct the use of his share of the loot. He specifically has to donate it to a good cause and is not allowed to give his share to the party. The object isn't to redirect wealth to the other party members after all. I would argue it's just being cruel to punish a player for the intermediate steps between loot dropping and said loot being donated to the church.

Frenth Alunril
2013-11-07, 12:21 AM
hes arguing (as far as i can tell) that a vop character is both required to donate money (as written in the rules) but is not only unable to pick up the money he is required to donate but is not allowed to give the money to a worthy cause.

That's not about preventing abuse that's about trying to screw over vop character even more then they already are.

The VoP response:
Have you seen what VoP does for the character? They are not getting screwed in any way. We have a pretty decent system where he begs for food from the other players, as they are not allowed to have more food or water on them than they need for a day. He forgoes treasure as long as the rest of the party makes a donation to charity with a portion of what would normally go to his member share.

That was pretty much in line with the VoP as it is written, you get no gold to direct, because you have a VoP, and you get no possessions for the same reason.

Ideally, though, you can run it any way you like. The agreement we came to in my game was such, however, said pixie has succumbed to his struggle with a SoA, so it's really a non-issue.

Of interest...

Having a character in the party who has taken a vow of poverty should not necessarily mean that the other party members get bigger shares of treasure! An ascetic character must be as extreme in works of charity as she is in self-denial. The majority of her share of party treasure (or the profits from the sale thereof) should be donated to the needy, either directly (equipping rescued captives with gear taken from their fallen captors) or indirectly (making a large donation to a temple noted for its work among the poor). While taking upon herself the burden of poverty voluntarily, an ascetic recognizes that many people do not have the freedom to choose poverty, but instead have it forced upon them, and seeks to better those unfortunates as much as possible.

Says nothing of the character actually taking possession of the valuables, as per a previous paragraph which clearly says nothing more than one day's food and water, a simple weapons, and some simple clothing as possessions found here:

To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions: You may carry and use ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons, usually just a quarterstaff that serves as a walking stick. You may wear simple clothes (usually just a homespun robe, possibly also including a hat and sandals) with no magical properties. You may carry enough food to sustain you for one day in a simple (nonmagic) sack or bag. You may carry and use a spell component pouch.


By that logic a thief owns anything he steals by virtue of having picked it up.
If my buddy asks me to pick up his bag i don't own it just cause i helped him carry it.


About possesion:
To this I say only, "Squatter's rights" and other such Possession issues have lead to the saying, "Possession is 9/10ths of the law" They don't own it by virtue of posession, but it is the case of the dispossessed to prove such property belonged to them in the first place.

I would agree that if your buddy asked you to pick up a bag, you don't own it. But, if you then decided to use said bag, and it's contents at your own discretion, you act as the owner of said bag, and contents. Furthermore, should you be caught with the bag and it contains items of question, you are found to be in possession of them, and in some cases that can lead to interesting legal decisions.

So, this is less a matter of verbiage, and more a matter of intent or legal recognition, which comes back to the calls we made about a dogmatic and profound commitment to what one might view as Poverty, and ultimately, we decided that fundamentalists are not pragmatic, but rather, very strict in their definitions, which in turn, lead us to the quite inane, but rather clear conclusions.

In the end, willful control of funds, even directing to which charity those funds were given, was out of the hands of the character with the VoP. He had to trust implicitly that those who he took-up with would honor his agreement with them that the funds which would normally be allotted him were donated to help others, and that was the extent of his control over wealth. "For a king may never touch money, but have the power with which they can direct it, and that is clearly not poverty."

At the end of the day, how we are handling this feat is totally on a player/dm agreement, like any of the feats are handled, or, for that matter, for the same reason the Psionic's book is not allowed. My table, my game.

awa
2013-11-07, 12:06 PM
I have to make an apology when I made my comment's I accidently misidentified the thread starter. While I still would not have done it that way myself I would not have pushed it as much as I did if I had realized.

so my bad not quite Shure how I made that mistake.

Jay R
2013-11-07, 03:14 PM
By that logic a thief owns anything he steals by virtue of having picked it up.

That's certainly the intent of a thief's action.