Counter to Counter Fear

[ImaDeadMan]

I plan on having my party encounter a trio of characters that are focused on fear. The only issue is that the party includes a bard with counter-fear. I'm wondering if there are any counters to this in case the encounter is too easy for the party. It's intended to be a difficult encounter for them to handle. The player party consists of 6 characters and I plan on them running into the trio at level 12. The party has a hexblade, a bard/seeker of the song, a ranger/scout, a battledancer, a fighter/weapon master, and a sorcerer (not playing anything like a normal sorcerer. probably closer to what a tier 3 character would do).

[Vhaidara]

just because I want to get it out of the way, countersong. Also, I wanted to say it's useful. Because, you know, first time for everything.

btw, bard/seeker reporting for duty peeps :P

[zimmerwald1915]

Dread Witch breaches fear immunity.

[Vhaidara]

not immunity, i give them a save equal to my perform check

EDIT: I'm replying because I'm the source of the problem

[ImaDeadMan]

Dread Witch breaches fear immunity.

I am aware of this and one of the trio members is a dread witch to account for fear immunity. The issue, however, is the fact that the bard replaces the normal will saves of the players with his perform(sing) skill check with his counter-fear ability.

[Crake]

maybe instead of looking for a way to specifically counter the bard, let him have his moment in the spotlight? The party just happens to have the right tool for the job, don't go taking that tool away from them, just because.

Edit: Just checking though, I see inspire courage, which grants a small bonus to saves vs fear, and countersong, which only works vs sonic based attacks. So if the fear attack isn't sonic based (say, frightful presence, or simply a fear spell that isn't [Sonic] or [Language Dependent]) then it should work fine, with just the small save bonus from inspire courage. Am I missing something here?

[Pickford]

I plan on having my party encounter a trio of characters that are focused on fear. The only issue is that the party includes a bard with counter-fear. I'm wondering if there are any counters to this in case the encounter is too easy for the party. It's intended to be a difficult encounter for them to handle. The player party consists of 6 characters and I plan on them running into the trio at level 12. The party has a hexblade, a bard/seeker of the song, a ranger/scout, a battledancer, a fighter/weapon master, and a sorcerer (not playing anything like a normal sorcerer. probably closer to what a tier 3 character would do).

If the fear doesn't have a sound component countersong does nothing.

If you're referring to Inspire Courage...that does require the allies to 'hear' the song. Solution? Deafness (Silence if you have a Bard/Cleric caster, or actually individual Blindness/Deafness if it's a sor/wiz)

[Vhaidara]

It isn't countersoung. I have the Gnome Bard Racial Substitution for level 1 from Races of Stone. It is specifically Counterfear.

The effect is that I can give an ally who can hear me who has been feared an extra save, using my perform check as the save.

Also, silence doesn't work on me because I have Joyful Noise, rendering me immune to silence.

[Crake]

Ok, so I did some digging and found Counter-Fear (which replaces countersong mind you, so he can't have both) in races of stone as a bard racial substitution level for gnomes. The ability doesn't actually specify that the allies need to hear it, simply that they need to be within 30 feet, so silence/deafen won't help. I say, if he's gone through the trouble of getting that alternate class feature, let him have this one, after all, he's specifically built himself to beat fear effects, and unless the enemy is somehow informed beforehand of his abilities somehow, there's no real reason that they should specifically set up a counter.


It isn't countersoung. I have the Gnome Bard Racial Substitution for level 1 from Races of Stone. It is specifically Counterfear.

The effect is that I can give an ally who can hear me who has been feared an extra save, using my perform check as the save.

Also, silence doesn't work on me because I have Joyful Noise, rendering me immune to silence.

Do you also have melodic casting? Because if you don't, you cant concentrate on the spell and use your bardic music at the same time. Subsonics is another solution to the silence problem, one I'd prefer, since it lets you be sneaky while providing buffs.

[ImaDeadMan]

I have no problem with the bard having a moment in the spotlight. I simply wanted a solution to the bard's counter-fear in case the encounter turned out to be too easy. Thank you all for your replies so far.

[Crake]

I have no problem with the bard having a moment in the spotlight. I simply wanted a solution to the bard's counter-fear in case the encounter turned out to be too easy. Thank you all for your replies so far.

Honestly, at level 12, fear effects have lost their traction. Lucky you don't have a cleric in the party, or with a simple hero's feast in the morning they'd be straight up immune to fear. (Although ironically that'd open them up to dread witch fear)

I get that you can't say much, but is fear the ONLY component to the fight? If so it'll likely be stupidly easy. Although if you can find some way to get the players to spread out so far that they cant be within 30ft of the bard for counter fear, then that might be a start.

[Pickford]

It isn't countersoung. I have the Gnome Bard Racial Substitution for level 1 from Races of Stone. It is specifically Counterfear.

The effect is that I can give an ally who can hear me who has been feared an extra save, using my perform check as the save.

Also, silence doesn't work on me because I have Joyful Noise, rendering me immune to silence.

Well, you have to concentrate, which means you're kind of boned if they simply damage you/make it impossible for you to pass the concentration check. (i.e. Fear you first)

[ImaDeadMan]

I get that you can't say much, but is fear the ONLY component to the fight? If so it'll likely be stupidly easy. Although if you can find some way to get the players to spread out so far that they cant be within 30ft of the bard for counter fear, then that might be a start.

Don't worry, fear is far from the only component to the fight. The trio that the party will meet have a lot of synergy based on fear status effects and thus, the reason for this thread.

[Psyren]

If you frighten/panic party members before the bard starts up his counterfear, then they may run out of range of the effect and need the bard to chase them down first. Bonus points if they flee in different directions, preventing the bard from curing two of them simultaneously.

This way, the bard still gets to do his thing (stop fear) but the monsters have still had a deleterious impact on the party by scattering them; divide and conquer, etc.

[ShurikVch]

Fearsome Necromancy, Death Frost, Fell Frighten, Aura of Terror

There are no save! :smallcool:

[Spore]

You can always toss silence at the bard. Surely he will learn or already has learned how to deal with a pesky priest spell.

[Psyren]

You can always toss silence at the bard. Surely he will learn or already has learned how to deal with a pesky priest spell.

He covered that already, he has Joyful Noise. In addition, strictly speaking they don't have to hear him use the counterfear (though that is how I would rule it) so he doesn't have to stay within 10ft. of them either.

[Vhaidara]

If you frighten/panic party members before the bard starts up his counterfear, then they may run out of range of the effect and need the bard to chase them down first. Bonus points if they flee in different directions, preventing the bard from curing two of them simultaneously.

This way, the bard still gets to do his thing (stop fear) but the monsters have still had a deleterious impact on the party by scattering them; divide and conquer, etc.

Curse you for finding the second most effective counter to me. I'm a gnome in a group of (at that time) 2 50fts, a 40ft, a 30ft, and a fellow 20ft (move speeds, for anyone who is confused).

I still find it hilarious that the most effective counter is actually countersong. For the first time ever.

[Adverb]

maybe instead of looking for a way to specifically counter the bard, let him have his moment in the spotlight? The party just happens to have the right tool for the job, don't go taking that tool away from them, just because.

Yeah, I feel like if there's one or two things your PCs have gone out of their way to be strong against, then it's good to make that count. The Paladin gets to stand boldly in the face of mortal terror, etc. If you respond to the PCs being fire resistant by giving everyone Searing Spell, you risk turning them into Worf (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXrlhN9rPoc), and no one deserves that.

I like to highlight things like that by designing an encounter with friendly NPCs who aren't so resistant, so in this case I'd maybe set them up to guard some people, or maybe just travel with them, and then the fear trio comes along and everyone who isn't close enough to the anti-fear guy scatters, and the PCs are the only ones who can really stand against the threat. Plus you can face some hard choices if the trio goes after the innocents - do I leave the no-fear aura and try to save that guy, or do I keep my tactical advantage and try to kill them from here?

[Garktz]

animate object on "non-suspicious" rock, cast silence on the rock, ask the rock to follow the bard

fear is much more fearfull when they just die without screaming