Pathfinder Paladin Assistance

[Element Zero]

Working on a ranged Paladin for a game I'm in, and I want to see if I can get some opinions on feat choices. I am an 8th level Human Paladin, and as stated above I'll be focused primarily on ranged attacks in the form of a composite longbow. I'm torn on feat selections, and was curious to see if I could get some suggestions.

[Bhaakon]

Archery is fairly feat intensive, and the first 5 feats are pretty much always the same (they might vary on order, but that doesn't much matter if you're starting at level 8)

lvl1: Point blank shot, precise shot
3: rapid shot
5: deadly aim
7: manyshot

After that, probably hammer the gap and clustered shots (though a paladin doesn't have as much need for clustered shots, since smiting bypasses DR).

[Psyren]

Note that Paladin has an archery-focused archetype (Divine Hunter) which can help a lot with this concept by giving you free Precise Shot (and the ability to give yourself and your allies free Deadly Aim and Imp. Precise Shot at 11), the ability to imbue your bow with many powerful enhancements, and Lay On Hands usable at range to help your tanks out. You lose your mount however.

[Ravens_cry]

Archery is fairly feat intensive, and the first 5 feats are pretty much always the same (they might vary on order, but that doesn't much matter if you're starting at level 8)

lvl1: Point blank shot, precise shot
3: rapid reload
5: deadly aim
7: manyshot

After that, probably hammer the gap and clustered shots (though a paladin doesn't have as much need for clustered shots, since smiting bypasses DR).
Why do you need rapid reload?:smallconfused: They are using a longbow. Clustered shots is still nice for when you aren't smiting but are facing DR, as even a Paladin of Vengeance (trade two lay on hands for a smite) can't smite all the time, and neutral opponents do pop up from time to time. A good example of a combination is certain elemental as well as golems.
Hmm, hammer the gap looks pretty good. I agree that is worth taking.
EDIT: No, not Divine Hunter. It gives you some free feats but it takes a lot away. Granting feats to others is pretty useless. They will either likely have them at that level, and so not need them, or just not need them. Divine Hunter is not a good Paladin Archer. Lay on hands at range is kind of nice, but that's really your candy when the action cost is so much lower for you.

[avr]

Don't go for clustered shots. Getting a few arrows of the right type to bypass DR (adamantine or +1 holy or whatever) is a lot easier than getting a melee weapon of the right type.

I suspect Rapid Shot was meant rather than Rapid Reload.

[Ravens_cry]

Don't go for clustered shots. Getting a few arrows of the right type to bypass DR (adamantine or +1 holy or whatever) is a lot easier than getting a melee weapon of the right type.

I suspect Rapid Shot was meant rather than Rapid Reload.
Eh, I'd rather spend the feat. You got the basics right there. And yes, rapid shot would make sense.

[Techno Magician]

Yea, those feats are the general consensus. After though I wouldn't grab hammer the gap, I just don't find the damage to be enough(though if you count many shot to be 2 attacks it can be worth it). With your 3 shots at that level though you are dealing +0, +1, +2 damage or a total of +1 damage, weapon focus would be a better feat imo. Maybe once your about to get another attack but even then it isn't too amazing per attack.

I think you would be better off with most anything else whether vital strike(naw thats a horrible idea) for standard shots(depends if you are mounted and can full attack anyways) or more likely some base paladin feats for mercy/lay on hands or the such.

[Psyren]

EDIT: No, not Divine Hunter. It gives you some free feats but it takes a lot away. Granting feats to others is pretty useless. They will either likely have them at that level, and so not need them, or just not need them. Divine Hunter is not a good Paladin Archer. Lay on hands at range is kind of nice, but that's really your candy when the action cost is so much lower for you.

I don't think it's all that bad. For one, Hunter's Blessing grants the feats to you too, so you save on having to pick up Imp. Precise Shot and Deadly Aim; if you have them already, you can simply retrain them once you hit 11. And free Precise Shot at 1st-level is really nice. Then there is the bow - being able to add enhancements like brilliant energy, merciful, speed and seeking to your bow (and just as importantly for the first two, remove them when needed) at-will is pretty great. And ranged LoH combined with Mercy is extremely useful, particularly for a paladin that wants to stay in the back row anyway.

I agree the "sharing" abilities aren't great but there is more than enough there that benefits just the paladin to make the archetype worthwhile.

[Ravens_cry]

At higher levels, Ultimate Mercy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/ultimate-mercy) can be useful if someone goes down and you don't have a diamond handy. Yeah, eating the negative level sucks, but it can be very useful. Alternatively, and if you do the math it uses less lay on hands, you can do Channeled Revival, (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/channeled-revival) though it's a breath of life, so they must almost drop at your feet. Good to squeeze in if you can.

I don't think it's all that bad. For one, Hunter's Blessing grants the feats to you too, so you save on having to pick up Imp. Precise Shot and Deadly Aim; if you have them already, you can simply retrain them once you hit 11. And free Precise Shot at 1st-level is really nice. Then there is the bow - being able to add enhancements like brilliant energy, merciful, speed and seeking to your bow (and just as importantly for the first two, remove them when needed) at-will is pretty great. And ranged LoH combined with Mercy is extremely useful, particularly for a paladin that wants to stay in the back row anyway.

I agree the "sharing" abilities aren't great but there is more than enough there that benefits just the paladin to make the archetype worthwhile.

I love me those auras too much to give up for that. Being able to say 'No!' to many of the most annoying effects in the game, the kind that make you not able to play basically, is awesome, and being able to say "Everybody gets to smite!" is also delicious.

[avr]

Actually for the level 9 feat I'd give serious thought to Craft Magic Arms and Armor. With a little help from your friends supplying any necessary spells you could save a fair amount of cash.

Actually hunting down all the arrows you want can take a fair amount of time (campaign-dependent, true) so crafting may not actually lose you time.

[Bhaakon]

Why do you need rapid reload? They are using a longbow

Rapid shot, I meant to say.


Clustered shots is still nice for when you aren't smiting but are facing DR, as even a Paladin of Vengeance (trade two lay on hands for a smite) can't smite all the time, and neutral opponents do pop up from time to time.

True, but a Paladin can also use its divine bond class feature to bypass DR in Pathfinder (either using axiomatic/holy enhancements to get past those specific types of DR or by stacking up enhancement bonuses to power past any kind of DR).


After though I wouldn't grab hammer the gap, I just don't find the damage to be enough (though if you count many shot to be 2 attacks it can be worth it). With your 3 shots at that level though you are dealing +0, +1, +2 damage or a total of +1 damage, weapon focus would be a better feat imo. Maybe once your about to get another attack but even then it isn't too amazing per attack.

That's going to depend on how Manyshot gets adjudicated (two hits or one? I'm not sure if there's a FAQ on that), and a level 9 Pally is going likely to get hasted with some regularity. If you're routinely getting 5 shots per round, then that doubles the potential bonus damage. Though I admit that I haven't done the math on WF vs HtG.

[Psyren]

I love the auras too, but 3 free feats in an archery build, plus a free magic bow and ranged LoH go a very long way in my book.

[Ravens_cry]

Rapid shot, I meant to say.



True, but a Paladin can also use its divine bond class feature to bypass DR in Pathfinder (either using axiomatic/holy enhancements to get past those specific types of DR or by stacking up enhancement bonuses to power past any kind of DR).

They can, but that doesn't count for all DR's, and trying to hit past it is . . . eh, you are losing a lot of damage. That one time you want it, you will really want it.

[Techno Magician]

It also has the weakness of getting stronger on the weaker attacks. Then if you miss one attack it resets to 0 damage. Overall just seems kinda bad to me, though given I didn't think about haste. I like the idea of a crafting feat though I am partial to them as I like my magic items.

Something that can also help if you build for it is skill focus use magic device, with that, dangerously curious trait and your high charisma you can easily make the check to use higher level scrolls. (8+4+3+Cha(5)) = 20 UMD, get masterwork tools for 2 more and in 2 more levels the focus gets you another 3 so at level 10 you suddenly have 27 UMD enough to use 7th level scrolls fairly routinely.

[Element Zero]

What is the general opinion on the Snap Shot tree, later down the line? I'm tempted by them (mixed with combat reflexes) for a 15-foot threat range...but I'm not sure if I should go that route.

[Ravens_cry]

What is the general opinion on the Snap Shot tree, later down the line? I'm tempted by them (mixed with combat reflexes) for a 15-foot threat range...but I'm not sure if I should go that route.It's good, very good, but there will be other feats you will want first for this build. Improved Precise shot once you you apply. Heck, I might even take improved critical. With all a Paladin's static bonuses and a spell that automatically confirms critical hits, a 10% crit chance is pretty tempting.

[Keneth]

I'll just leave this (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9vv1a7v3y5BT1dKLUZ0Qmh4Vmc/edit?pli=1) here.

[Element Zero]

Bodhi's Guide is really useful, but it's also more general. Though I do thank you for pointing it out to me. :smallsmile:

Any other useful advice? This thread has been a huge help so far!

[Ravens_cry]

Bodhi's Guide is really useful, but it's also more general. Though I do thank you for pointing it out to me. :smallsmile:

Any other useful advice? This thread has been a huge help so far!
What are you looking for?

[Element Zero]

What are you looking for?

Not sure, just wanted to see if there were more suggestions, maybe things I'm missing that haven't been covered here or in the guide. Suggested builds, efficient levels to take certain feats and the like. For example, should I wait until later on to get the Snap Shot tree, and focus on Manyshot/Rapid Shot? Or would it be effective to push Manyshot and Rapid Shot to later levels and get Weapon Focus/Snap Shot early?

I don't want to make any decisions I'll regret.

[Techno Magician]

rapid/many shot is such a huge dps boost you need it early, snap shot is good but unless you are tanking not very helpful(though archer paladins do have that option). Personally I would go for snap shot only if you where planning to sit on your mount, let enemies come and attack you, then full round as you move away, this way the enemy prevokes every round if they want to attack you, you don't lose your full attack and the enemy has only single attacks.

[Ravens_cry]

Not sure, just wanted to see if there were more suggestions, maybe things I'm missing that haven't been covered here or in the guide. Suggested builds, efficient levels to take certain feats and the like. For example, should I wait until later on to get the Snap Shot tree, and focus on Manyshot/Rapid Shot? Or would it be effective to push Manyshot and Rapid Shot to later levels and get Weapon Focus/Snap Shot early?

I don't want to make any decisions I'll regret.
Snap shot is nice, but, in my opinion, you want to be far outside of snap shot range. If you weren't human, I might suggest taking some riding feats,just mounted Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery at most, because archery from can be devastating thanks to the Saddle Surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/saddle-surge) spell. Your level minus three (or one if you take the magical knack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-knack)trait) to damage with each arrow at is nothing to sneeze. It might still work if the campaign has a lot of open spaces.

[HylianKnight]

Not sure, just wanted to see if there were more suggestions, maybe things I'm missing that haven't been covered here or in the guide. Suggested builds, efficient levels to take certain feats and the like. For example, should I wait until later on to get the Snap Shot tree, and focus on Manyshot/Rapid Shot? Or would it be effective to push Manyshot and Rapid Shot to later levels and get Weapon Focus/Snap Shot early?

The Paladin guide already linked to has a pretty solid build for Archer Paladins, and suggestions for what you want to look out for.

When it comes to archery, generally the recommended order is the Point Blank/Precise/Rapid/Many shot line first. Things like Weapon Focus and Snap Shot, are only very beneficial once you have your bow effectiveness up and running. So I would say to prioritize the feats that up your attacks and damage output (since this is Pathfinder don't forget Power Attack Deadly Aim!), and then get whatever additional combat feats that strike your fancy (like Weapon Focus and the Snap Shot line).

Also, do you know what you want to divine bond to? If you're planning on choosing your weapon, I would also suggest just checking to see if the archery archetype option looks appealing. If you decide on a mount, you're probably going to want the Mounted Archery and Skirmisher feats. Being able to move 50+ feet around while taking full attacks the whole time is pretty sick. But these two should be prioritized below the initial Shot chain.

[Ravens_cry]

Also, do you know what you want to divine bond to? If you're planning on choosing your weapon, I would also suggest just checking to see if the archery archetype option looks appealing. If you decide on a mount, you're probably going to want the Mounted Archery and Skirmisher feats. Being able to move 50+ feet around while taking full attacks the whole time is pretty sick. But these two should be prioritized below the initial Shot chain.
Which Skirmisher feats are these? If they are the ones I am thinking of, you don't need them for an archer. Your mount can move and you still get a full attack with a bow.

[Techno Magician]

mounted archery is 2 feats for +2 to attack when moving or +4 attack when running, while sure it can be nice I would really think just weapon focus and the like is a better investment. My suggestion would be go for mount and this path. Though mount can be iffy depending on situation, might want to be halfling or such if you are mounted.

1: point blank
1: rapid shot
3: precise shot
5: deadly aim
7: many shot
9: weapon focus into snap shot/lay on hands feats(go for raise dead)/clustered shot/critical feats line
11: continue previous or go for improved precise shot