Soul Manifester advice

[Belkira]

I am looking to build a Warforged Psion/Incarnate, and while I have some experience with Incarnum I have little to none with Psionics.

[Xuldarinar]

Alright. I don't have a lot for you here, but I can offer some (hopefully) decent advice.

At 1st level, take the psiforged body feat. +1 power point and the ability to use your body as a cognizance crystal (1 pp + 1 per 2 character levels). This could prove valuable.

Azure Talent, Midnight Augmentation, Psycarnum Crystal, and Psycarnum Infusion could each prove valuable, as they would integrate your manifesting and meldshaping.

I will say the combination is not optimal, as you will require both Con and Wis for your meldshaping and Int for your psionics. But all alternatives would delay entry, and/or put more focus on Wis which you have a penalty on.

One question to ask is, which do you want to be the focus of the character and how do you want to play them?

As for specific advice on psionics, I'm afraid I have nothing to contribute on that matter.

[Crake]

The two main things to note about psionics are: Single source (when spending powerpoints, they all need to come from the same place, regardless of what you're doing) and you can only spend powerpoints up to your manifester level on any single manifestation.

[Psyren]

Soul Manifester is a strong PrC because there is a lot of synergy between Incarnum and Psionics. The first feat you will probably want is Psicrystal Affinity, and then grab the 4 feats Xuldarinar mentioned, as well as Psionic Meditation as soon as possible. That feat requires a minimum of 13 Wis, so be sure to leave room in your stat budget for it.

For help with power, race and item choice, be sure to read the Psion Handbook. (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=10238.0)

I recommend Telepath for Soul Manifester entry, because the Charming Veil soulmeld will make you a powerhouse at it, and they have lots of powers that can be augmented for combination with Midnight Augmentation and Psionic Investment. But really, any psion will do well with it.

[thethird]

Since there is wis requirement and there are dead manifesting levels why not go ardent?

[Psyren]

Since there is wis requirement and there are dead manifesting levels why not go ardent?

Unless you can get the Mantle Substitution ACF from Mind's Eye approved, Ardent has a poorer list than Psion to choose from with most mantles, so it generally ends up weaker even without being MAD.

If you can though, Ardent is a great choice, and will make certain soulmelds like Psychic Focus much stronger.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would recommend picking ether Psionics or Incarnum to focus on, and try to loose as little of it as possible while building on the other. Split builds in DND tend to simply fail at doing two things rather than doing one well. Focus on one side and use the second side to augment the first.

Of the two choices, psionics is the more powerful. This would suggest you take as little incarnate before going soul manifester as possible.

[Feint's End]

I don't know about you guys but that crys for a Shaper Warforged.

Start your 1st level up to 3rd as a Shaper Psion Warforged. First feats should be Adamantine Body and Psicrystal Affinity. 3rd you can put into some synergy feats which have been mentioned before.
Powers to grab: Vigor, Share Pain, Psionic Repair Damage

You are now by far the tankiest member in the party while being a full manifester at the same time. You only get half damage of which most should go into vigor and you can heal yourself and your psicrystal on a very efficient basis.

After that just dip into Incarnum and go Soul Manifester and you are pretty much set.

edit: also Incarnates are build-in tanks themself so if you focus on psionics in this build you can still get 9th level while being the most durable character in your group. You don't even need a good con for that (doesn't mean you should have none but it's not really highest priority).

[Psyren]

Actually I advise against Shaper. Most Shaper powers are no-save (Astral Construct, Crystal X, X Creation, X Ectoplasm powers etc.) which means you're missing out on the primary benefit of Soul Manifester, the ability to power up your DCs via Psionic Investment. Telepath and Kineticist get more mileage out of it I'd say.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yes, I would go for the charmer route. There is a soulmeld that adds to the DC of charms, if I remember right. It makes for really hard to resist dominates.

[Psyren]

Yes, I would go for the charmer route. There is a soulmeld that adds to the DC of charms, if I remember right. It makes for really hard to resist dominates.

Yep - Charming Veil, I mentioned it in my initial reply above.

[shadow_archmagi]

At 1st level, take the psiforged body feat. +1 power point and the ability to use your body as a cognizance crystal (1 pp + 1 per 2 character levels). This could prove valuable.

Azure Talent, Midnight Augmentation, Psycarnum Crystal, and Psycarnum Infusion could each prove valuable, as they would integrate your manifesting and meldshaping.


Psiforged Body is actually kinda bad. Cognizance Crystals are not particularly useful, and spending a feat to get a subpar item is a huge mistake.

Psycarnum Crystal, likewise, is among the worst possible feats you could take. Almost every other feat in that book gives you free essentia, and an option for that essentia- Psycarnum Crystal gives you conditional essentia. Much better to take, say, Saphire Sprint, even if you never ever use the Sprint, just so you still have the Essentia when your crystal isn't around.

Psycarnum Infusion and Midnight Augmentation are fantastic though (go ahead and use them on each other! Bwahahahahahaha!)



I will say the combination is not optimal, as you will require both Con and Wis for your meldshaping and Int for your psionics. But all alternatives would delay entry, and/or put more focus on Wis which you have a penalty on.

One question to ask is, which do you want to be the focus of the character and how do you want to play them?


You don't *need* Wis for meldshaping. It only affects DCs, but you don't need offensive melds- that's what psionics are for. The best melds are all self-buffs anyway. So all you *really* need is Int and Con, which a pure psion needs anyway, since Con is hitpoints and you love those.

That said, yeah, Soul Manifester isn't quite as optimal as pure Psion, but I wouldn't call it bad. Unless your table is very powergame, a Psion/Incarnate isn't going to be the weakest, and certainly not useless.


Soul Manifester is a strong PrC because there is a lot of synergy between Incarnum and Psionics. The first feat you will probably want is Psicrystal Affinity, and then grab the 4 feats Xuldarinar mentioned, as well as Psionic Meditation as soon as possible. That feat requires a minimum of 13 Wis, so be sure to leave room in your stat budget for it.

Psionic Meditation and Psycrystal Containment are terrific feats (Also, if your GM allows psycrystals to take feats, give it Wild Talent so it can focus itself.)


Unless you can get the Mantle Substitution ACF from Mind's Eye approved, Ardent has a poorer list than Psion to choose from with most mantles, so it generally ends up weaker even without being MAD.

If you can though, Ardent is a great choice, and will make certain soulmelds like Psychic Focus much stronger.

Yeah, Ardent is weaker than Psion, but it's still good. High T3, low T2, even. I personally really enjoy shuffling mantles to try to get a good, flexible power list (and even more fun trying to write the fluff behind why my character focuses on Protection and Madness)

[Feint's End]

Actually I advise against Shaper. Most Shaper powers are no-save (Astral Construct, Crystal X, X Creation, X Ectoplasm powers etc.) which means you're missing out on the primary benefit of Soul Manifester, the ability to power up your DCs via Psionic Investment. Telepath and Kineticist get more mileage out of it I'd say.

You of all people should know that the School you pick determines very little when it comes to Psions :smallconfused:

Expanded Knowledge + Psychic Reformation gets you all the stuff you need.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yes, though taking the egoist ACF as a warforged and turning into a lamp at will is awful funny.

[Psyren]

You of all people should know that the School you pick determines very little when it comes to Psions :smallconfused:

Expanded Knowledge + Psychic Reformation gets you all the stuff you need.

I disagree - your choice of school does matter, particularly here. EK can fill in several gaps, but picking the right school up front gives you earlier access and saves you valuable feats. In this particular build, I'd rather be a Telepath and spend 1 single feat on Astral Construct, than be a Shaper who needs to pick up Schism and Dominate and has to jump through hoops to get Chirurgery etc. And Reformation shuffling doesn't work as well for you as it would for an Erudite because you truly do give up the powers you're trading out, even from items.

And again, few to none of the powers you get from Shaper benefit from this PrC, which means that until you get the necessary EKs, it's basically a waste.

[Feint's End]

I disagree - your choice of school does matter, particularly here. EK can fill in several gaps, but picking the right school up front gives you earlier access and saves you valuable feats. In this particular build, I'd rather be a Telepath and spend 1 single feat on Astral Construct, than be a Shaper who needs to pick up Schism and Dominate and has to jump through hoops to get Chirurgery etc. And Reformation shuffling doesn't work as well for you as it would for an Erudite because you truly do give up the powers you're trading out, even from items.

And again, few to none of the powers you get from Shaper benefit from this PrC, which means that until you get the necessary EKs, it's basically a waste.

Well that depends on why you go into the PRC ... do you want to become the ultra mega tank of all times? Then yes it does benefit. If you just want to pump your DC high than that's another story. If he just goes in because he wants to try both than none of the above is really a valid arguement for or against it.

Also Shaper means early access to Astral Construct and most importantely Psionic Repair Damage which is just ridiculously good on Warforged. Powerwise I'm pretty sure that the Shaper lies ahead of another spec. early on and later on you can pick up the most important powers by Psychic Reformation. (like Schism)

But I think it also comes down to which flavour the OP wants to have. So lets ask him :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Pumping DCs is literally all it does, aside from opening some of your chakras (you can do this with a power anyway) and giving you essentia. So I would naturally assume that was the end goal, a build that relied on offensive control/debuffing/blasting.

[shadow_archmagi]

Pumping DCs is literally all it does, aside from opening some of your chakras (you can do this with a power anyway) and giving you essentia. So I would naturally assume that was the end goal, a build that relied on offensive control/debuffing/blasting.

Well, not literally the only thing it does, or even the only thing it's good for.

While that is probably the most synergistic use of SM, incarnum is fairly versatile stuff. It could be he's planning to use the incarnum side for skillmonkey/utility/emergency melee, too.

[Psyren]

Thing is, other than the essentia (which, admittedly, is a pretty nifty consequence of the class though) Soul Manifester doesn't have all that much to do with meldshaping. Incarnum is funny like that - you could be Incarnate 1/Psion X or Incarnate 1/Psywar X and get access to all the same soulmelds and chakras the PrC gives you, and even have more feats to spare just thanks to your Psion/Psywar levels. Which is why I said that (presumably) Psionic Investment was the main draw there.

[Belkira]

Telepath based builds are out, the GM hates charms and dominate. Plus our local Cheese Monster once took over an entire country with his magic sooo yeah. The original idea was to have a backup tank for our homebrewed DR heavy paladin, and to cover up the weakness exposed by an incompetent wizard.

[Rubik]

At 1st level, take the psiforged body feat. +1 power point and the ability to use your body as a cognizance crystal (1 pp + 1 per 2 character levels). This could prove valuable. Psiforged Body sucks. Avoid it. It's a waste of a feat. You're much better off with Imprint Stone to make power stones, or any number of other feats which will actually do something decent for you. Psiforged Body just isn't worth it at all. I'd take Psicrystal Affinity over that any day of the week.


Azure Talent, Midnight Augmentation, Psycarnum Crystal, and Psycarnum Infusion could each prove valuable, as they would integrate your manifesting and meldshaping.Now these, yes. These are very good feats (except Psycarnum Crystal, which is another horrible feat).


I will say the combination is not optimal, as you will require both Con and Wis for your meldshaping and Int for your psionics. But all alternatives would delay entry, and/or put more focus on Wis which you have a penalty on.You'll want Con anyway, and incarnum works really well with psionics. Plenty of good feats and soulmelds which work well for virtually any psionic character (unless you're undead, but there's a feat tax for that).

[Belkira]

Would Mithril or Adamantine body be a decent choice for a feat?

[Rubik]

Would Mithril or Adamantine body be a decent choice for a feat?Adamantine Body is the only decent one, and that's only at the lowest of levels. Anything above that and you're better off going dragonborn to get rid of the body plating altogether.

[edit] Oh, and I like totemist 2/shaper psion 5/soul manifester 10/psion or PrC 3. Gotta love the totem chakra.

Protip: Boost your manifester level or lower costs, then bind the phase cloak at or before level 9 for etheric fun.