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Matthew
2007-01-07, 01:59 PM
[Revised and Updated]

Frankly, because Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialisation just don't cut it for Fighters.


WEAPON MASTERY [GENERAL]
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose Unarmed Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#unarmedStrike) or Grapple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple) (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Base Attack Bonus +1, Fighter Level 1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all Attack Rolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll) and Damage Rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times for the same weapon and the effects stack, but each time you take the feat for this purpose your Base Attack Bonus and Fighter Level must be four points higher than the last time you took the Feat for that weapon. Alternatively, you may take it for a new type of weapon.
When you use the Attack Action or the Full Attack Action in Melee and are wielding a weapon with which you have Weapon Mastery, you can take a penalty of as much as -5 on your Attack Roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a Parry Bonus to your Armor Class against Melee Attacks. This number may not exceed your highest Weapon Mastery Attack Bonus with a weapon your are wielding. If you are wielding a Shield, you may also apply this Bonus against Ranged Attacks, but it may not exceed your highest Weapon Mastery (Shield) Attack Bonus. The changes to Attack Rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.
This feat does not stack with Weapon Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#weaponFocus) or Weapon Specialization (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#weaponSpecialization), Greater Weapon Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#greaterWeaponFocus#greaterWeaponFocus), Greater Weapon Specialization (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#greaterWeaponSpecialization#greaterWeapo nSpecialization), Two Weapon Mastery, Melee Weapon Mastery or Ranged Weapon Mastery.
A Fighter may select Weapon Mastery as one of his Fighter Bonus Feats.

Peregrine
2007-01-07, 02:05 PM
It's unusual for a feat to be only available as a fighter bonus feat. All the other fighter-only feats can be taken at any time a character with the required number of fighter levels gains a feat (fighter bonus or otherwise).

A more complete overhaul of the Weapon Focus/Spec tree might be in order, to go with this. Good start though. :smallsmile:

Matthew
2007-01-07, 05:48 PM
That's a good idea. I wonder what level to make Greater Weapon Mastery? I'm tempted to make an Improved Weapon Mastery available at BAB 6 and Greater at BAB 11, but perhaps it would be enough to make not have an Improved Weapon Mastery and simply make Greater Weapon Mastery avaialble at BAB 11. Have to look into the Feat Tree in the PHBII.

Maybe something like:

BAB 1 - Weapon Mastery [+1 Attack Bonus, +1/+2 Damage Bonus with one Weapon]
BAB 6 - Improved Weapon Mastery [+2 Attack Bonus, +2/+4 Damage Bonus with one Weapon]
BAB 11 - Greater Weapon Mastery [+3 Attack Bonus, +3/+6 Damage Bonus with one Weapon]
BAB 16 - Perfect Weapon Mastery [+4 Attack Bonus, +4/+8 Damage Bonus with one Weapon]

Then a staggered expanded effect, so that the lower Mastery affects multiple Weapons:

BAB 6+ - Expanded Weapon Mastery [+1 Attack Bonus, +1/+2 Damage Bonus with all Weapons]
BAB 11+ - Expanded Improved Weapon Mastery [+2 Attack Bonus, +2/+4 Damage Bonus with all Weapons]
BAB 16+ - Expanded Greater Weapon Mastery [+3 Attack Bonus, +3/+6 Damage Bonus with all Weapons]

TheOOB
2007-01-07, 06:09 PM
Melee and Ranged Weapon Mastery are allready feats in PHBII, it gives +2 to attack and damage rolls to all weapons of the same type (melee slashing, ranged piercing and so on).

Plus PHBII has weapon supremacy, the 18th level feat that makes you awesome.

Matthew
2007-01-07, 06:15 PM
Yeah, I know, but they are not as great as they seem (or as clear - is a Morning Star Bludgeoning or Piercing?), Basically, I think as it currently stands it's a bit of a mess.

I'm planning on encompassing those Feats in some way, probably through the above Expanded Weapon Mastery Feats. Expanded Weapon Mastery would have Improved Weapon Mastery as a prerequisite and grant Weapon Mastery effects to all other Weapons, same for all the others, meaning a total of Seven Feats.

Main problem is no Feat at BAB 11. I would have to rearrange the Fighter Feats to get a clean progression.

Currently it looks something like:

Fighter 1: Weapon Mastery
Fighter 6: Improved Weapon Mastery and Expanded Weapon Mastery
Fighter 12: Greater Weapon Mastery and Expanded Improved Weapon Mastery
Fighter 16: Perfect Weapon Mastery
Fighter 18: Expanded Greater Weapon Mastery

If I had a clean Fighter progression it would ideally look like:

Fighter 1: Weapon Mastery
Fighter 6: Improved Weapon Mastery
Fighter 11: Greater Weapon Mastery
Fighter 16: Perfect Weapon Mastery

with the Expanded versions coming somewhere inbetween each.

[Edit] All in all, though, it's probably easier to just use the Weapon Mastery Tree as presented or risk heading quite a lot further into House Rule territory. Melee Weapon Mastery and Ranged Weapon Mastery can do as they please. One possible consideration is to allow each Weapon Mastery to apply to a broader range of weapons, so that Improved Weapon Mastery confers the benefit of Weapon Mastery on all of type X [Such as Short Sword, Long Sword, Bastard Sword and Great Sword] or just have each Weapon Mastery encompass more than one Weapon.

Revised and Updated

fangthane
2007-01-08, 02:37 PM
1. This is leicestershire. It allows better attack rolls and damage than what balance will accept, at lower levels. More especially, it grants the effective benefits of weapon focus in addition to specialisation. And it counts for prerequisites.
2. What ray-wielding wizard is going to have 16 levels of fighter? If it's to be worthwhile for casters, ditch the fighter level requirement (though of course extra damage/attack bonus is even more cheeseworthy for non-fighters, who normally are limited to focus only)
3. I'd rather use the PHB2 Supremacy progression to bolster the existing focus/specialisation set, since its balance has been tested and OK'ed by WotC.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-01-08, 02:43 PM
2. What ray-wielding wizard is going to have 16 levels of fighter? If it's to be worthwhile for casters, ditch the fighter level requirement (though of course extra damage/attack bonus is even more cheeseworthy for non-fighters, who normally are limited to focus only)

Its not meant for casters at all. Its meant for fighters so thats not a good reason to change this feat.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-08, 02:48 PM
1. Many, myself included, believe that Weapon Focus and Specialization are not worth the two feat slots it takes to get their benefits.

2. Wizards are powerful enough without these feats.

Matthew
2007-01-08, 03:16 PM
3. I'd rather use the PHB2 Supremacy progression to bolster the existing focus/specialisation set, since its balance has been tested and OK'ed by WotC.

Now, that's funny. Wizards don't even pretend to playtest this stuff for balance anymore.

Anyway, all the Weapon Supremecy, Melee and Ranged Mastery Crap stacks with this, so no worries there.

I can't understand why Point 1 appears to contradict Point 2. Makes Casters too powerful, Caster's aren't going to use it? As Callos and Iames point out, Wizard's are very unlikely to use these Feats and would gain limited benefit.

Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialisation are some of the worst Feats in D&D, which is what prompted these Feats. For four Feats by Fighter 16 you get +4 AB and +4 Damage or +4 AB and +8 Damage if Two Handed. With Weapon Focus and Specialisation you get +2 AB and +4 Damage by Fighter Level 12 (which when you take into account Weapon Melee Mastery becomes +6/+6(10) versus +4/+6 for even less difference). This is a very slight upgrade and an overdue one for the Fighter.

fangthane
2007-01-08, 03:51 PM
Ok, given that three of you have missed the points I thought I was making, allow me to re-state things and hopefully in a manner clear enough that you see what I meant, shall I? :)

1. This is more than two feats' benefit, for the price of one. Clear enough what I meant about this now? :smallbiggrin: If spec could be taken at level 1, that'd be different, but it's not. If improved focus, let alone improved spec, were possible at level 6, it'd be different, but it's not. The fact that it eliminates the need for either of those two feats in terms of prerequisites is likewise unhinged.
2. If it's meant for casters to take (i.e. able to be used for rays), it should be plausible for casters to take. If you don't care, remove its ability to boost ray attacks and this isn't an issue. Otherwise, you know there're going to be level 30-ish wizards complaining that while they meet the BAB there's no way they want to spend 16 levels on fighter but "deserve" the feat anyway. Anything which causes unrest or strife between players - and this will - is a bad thing. Also, it makes these feats way the heck too powerful for a gestalt environment, where a level 6 warlock/fighter is dealing far too much damage and hitting far too regularly with his ray attack. Ordinarily, it'd take him until 12th level to achieve that kind of power.

My point here was that the feat's too powerful to give to fighters, and is (situationally) way too powerful to give to anyone else. Point 2 was just a quibble with the fact that ray implementations just don't make sense, because it either begs the question of why a caster with sufficient BAB can't take the feat for a non-fighter implementation, or of why the feat can be assigned to that sort of attack in the first place (when no caster in his right mind would invest so many levels in a non-casting class).

I'm sorry if this seems offensive, and it probably will, but anyone who has trouble playing a fighter because they're "weak" or "a bad class" or "crippled" or any of the rest is deceiving themselves. They're having trouble playing a fighter because they don't understand how to play a fighter successfully, or more likely because their DM doesn't understand how to properly balance a campaign to effectively enfranchise all the players. I've never had a problem, and I've played several fighters to moderate (mid-teens) level without any trouble.

I must have missed where Wizards officially acknowledged that they don't test for balance in their products anymore; in any case, in assessing most of the feats in the PHB 2 they seem balanced to me*, whereas yours are quite patently loaded with parmesan, permit bonuses exceeding the norm (+2/+4 on a greatsword at level 6) far before those bonuses would normally be attainable (level 12) and require lesser investment (4 feats for the price of two) despite providing effective prerequisite benefits.

*there were a few about which I wasn't entirely happy, but generally they're fairly sound. If I could recall offhand which struck me as munchkin-with-cheese flavoured, I'd give you an example but I can't remember at the moment.

pyrefiend
2007-01-08, 04:01 PM
1. This is more than two feats' benefit, for the price of one. Clear enough what I meant about this now? :smallbiggrin:
Clear as it always was. The point is those are two bad feats, which are not nearly worth the slots they take up. The creation of new feats by Matthew is only to create a bit more balance.

Matthew
2007-01-08, 04:06 PM
Yes, I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree. If you really think this is too powerful, then that is obviously your perogative.

Gestalt games are powerful, regardless.

Wizards have said before that their Feats are not balanced against one another. Some Feats are better than others.

These Feats were not built to be balanced against Weapon Focus or Specialisation, they were built to replace them and be more powerful than them. The extent to which they are more powerful is +2 AB and 0-4 DB, depending on whether you are using the Weapon Single Handed or Two Handed. Yes, Fighters get this at Level 1, but they can already get +1 AB at Level 1; +1-+2 Damage is very little indeed.

Comparative Breakdown

Weapon Focus and Specialisation (Four Feats)
Fighter 1-3: +1 AB
Fighter 4-7: +1 AB, +2 DB
Fighter 8-11: +2 AB, +2 DB
Fighter 12: +2 AB, +4 DB

Single Handed Weapon Master (Four Feats)
Fighter 1-5: +1 AB, +1 DB
Fighter 6-10: +2 AB, +2 DB
Fighter 11-15: +3 AB, +3 DB
Fighter 16-20: +4 AB, +4 DB

Two Handed Weapon Mastery (Four Feats)
Fighter 1-5: +1 AB, +2 DB
Fighter 6-10: +2 AB, +4 DB
Fighter 11-15: +3 AB, +6 DB
Fighter 16-20: +4 AB, +8 DB

Don't worry about offending me; I would rather be challenged about this than have everyone agree, as there is more chance of discovering whether they are balanced in other people's games.

Vik
2007-01-09, 07:45 AM
By the way, why the hell do you want to have this feat give a greater damage bonus for 2-handed weapons ? I know it makes sense - if you have two weapons, you'll get two times the bonus damage - but it's not like 2-handed weapon fighters need another bonus compared to TWF : everyone says they're far more powerful, with the exception of Rogues that can add huge amount of sneak attack damage. You really should drop it.

Matthew
2007-01-09, 08:15 AM
Heh, that's true and it was a concern I had, so I am glad somebody has commented on it. Strictly speaking it is not necessary and can be cut away from these Feats with little to no problem.

However, I am in favour of also increasing the power of Two Weapon Fighting (including Weapon and Shield) and part of that has prompted a number of other Feats, such as Even Handed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1793539#post1793539) and Mobile Two Weapon Fighting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31316). The granting of a Power Attack like Damage Ratio for Weapon Mastery was intended to balance with those Feats. I considered including a note to that effect, but then it occured to me that it might be fine the way it is, so I left it in to be examined on its own merits.

I have twin mutually inclusive aims with this series of Feats:

1) Power up the Fighter
2) Power up Two Weapon Fighting

All the same, I do think that these Feats can stand on their own, but would be interested in other opinions as to whether the Two Handed aspect is too much (both in the context of these other feats and outside that context).

Calver
2007-01-09, 01:59 PM
I would have to disagree: I don't think that the Weapon Focus feat tree is underpowered. The fact that these bonuses are always in effect when wielding the selected weapon make them, at the very least, worth the feats. Once you get Greater Weapon Specialization, it is practically impossible to deal minimum damage. At that point, you're probably toting around a sword with atleast a +2 enhancement bonus which means that you're swinging for at least +6. Even if your Strength score is dropped down to 1 (resulting in a -5 penalty) you are still dealing [Damage Die/Dice]+1. And that's with a -5! Any other character at that level who gets their primary ability score drained is totally and completely screwed. The Finesse or Sniper Rouge or Ranger can't hope to hit; The Wizard, Sorcerer, or Bard who gets Feebleminded can't cast anything; the two-weapon Fighter, Ranger, or Rogue looses access to his feats; the Cleric who loses all his wisdom not only losses his spells, but also has a horrible will save. The only other things that can carry on at that point are Druids (who can wildshape) and Monks who have too many primary ability scores to drop (Drop Wis, and he can still punch; drop Dex, and he can still punch; drop str and his AC and Skills are still well intact). Heck! You don't even have to get spellcaster that low to negate them! You just have to get them down to 10! (very few 0-level spells will do much and their DC's are going to suck anyway).



Wizards have said before that their Feats are not balanced against one another. Some Feats are better than others.
Well, sure, some feats are better than others. The thing you are balancing them against are the core mechanics.


The granting of a Power Attack like Damage Ratio for Weapon Mastery was intended to balance with those Feats.
If Wizards doesn't do it, why should you? :smallwink:

Matthew
2007-01-09, 02:30 PM
Well, disagreement is welcome.

The examples you give are interesting, but hardly a definitive reason to not change the Weapon Focus and Specialisation Feats. There are plenty of Spells that completely scupper Fighters.

The real question is whether these Feats harm or improve game balance. I would say they don't harm game balance at all. It's a simpler and cleaner progression, in my opinion, that overall results in Fighters getting a slight boost at levels 1 and 6 and a more significant boost at levels 12 and 16 (which is where they really need it). Obviously, it's not going to appeal to everyone, but for those who feel the Focus and Specialisation Feat Trees are in need of revision (such as myself), I think these Feats are suitable.

I would say this is perfectly balanced against the Core Mechanics.

More like, because Wizards don't, somebody has to.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-01-09, 02:32 PM
2. If it's meant for casters to take (i.e. able to be used for rays), it should be plausible for casters to take. If you don't care, remove its ability to boost ray attacks and this isn't an issue. Otherwise, you know there're going to be level 30-ish wizards complaining that while they meet the BAB there's no way they want to spend 16 levels on fighter but "deserve" the feat anyway. Anything which causes unrest or strife between players - and this will - is a bad thing. Also, it makes these feats way the heck too powerful for a gestalt environment, where a level 6 warlock/fighter is dealing far too much damage and hitting far too regularly with his ray attack. Ordinarily, it'd take him until 12th level to achieve that kind of power.

I think you missed my point. Straight casters don't gain much from this. Heck, they can't even take it at all. GISH builds can though. Eldritch Knights, Spellblades, Bladesingers, and of those number of classes are gotten into by fighter/spellcaster combinations and thats why it includes Rays.

Its meant for fighters and GISH builds. Not straight casters.

fangthane
2007-01-10, 01:22 PM
Some new thoughts... :)

1. A mixed-class who qualifies because the prestige, or whatever, permits taking fighter-only feats, derives too much benefit from the feats when applied to rays; anyone else could never qualify feasibly anyhow. Rays just don't make much sense beyond the first pair of feats outlined.

2. Assuming I can't persuade you that your cheese is unnecessary, I actually agree with making the damage bonus double on a two-handed weapon. A two-weapon wielder receives a 5% bonus chance to hit and +2 damage per round potential; why should a two-handed wielder receive less, given that both are receiving the same per-round strength bonus potential and are attacking using the same number of appendages? The two-weapon wielder has a few advantages in terms of flexibility, the two-hander in terms of one-hit weapon punch (but is more susceptible to random vagaries) but neither of these is really affected by the +1 damage, which seems fine within its context. It's just the context with which I disagree. :smallbiggrin:

3. Did I mention that I also disagree that two-handed fighters are superior to sword-and-board or two-weapon fighters? TWF can use a buckler +5 any time they feel like declaring it, and a sword-and-board (or weapon-and-board, anyhow) can receive up to a +9 AC bonus in excess of what a two-handed fighter can accomplish. That's almost an additional 50% chance to NOT be hit, every time an attack is rolled (obviously depending on opposed attack roll) which can massively increase the fighter's survival. As long as others are supplying the damage shortfall (and at DR-involved levels, any weapon-and-shield fighter who doesn't have multiple types and materials of weapons is quite obviously an idiot beyond help) the defensive fighter build can be immensely powerful, bolstered with the feats which already exist.

4. At level 16, rather than a +2/+4 bonus a greatsword wielder has a +4/+8 bonus. First, rather than calculate the actual impact of +4 vs +2 let's simplify and call it a 10% damage boost (the fighter will be hitting approximately 10% more often). At level 16, my numbers indicate that a fighter should be dealing somewhere around 2d6+15/16 damage (assuming +4/5 sword and 24/26-ish strength at that level) Just to keep it straight, let's call it 3.5+3.5+16=23 average. Ordinarily, he'd be adding roughly 17% to that figure (4/23=17.4%) but now he's adding double that, or approximately 35%. In total, that means that with stock rules he'd deal (1.10*1.17) = 1.29 - almost 1.3x "non-feat" damage, on average. With your feats, his damage is instead boosted to (1.20*1.35) = 1.62x "non-feat" damage. If we factor in the 5% critical failure/success rates that reduces the 10/20% somewhat and brings it closer to a straight doubling of feat-based damage enhancement, invalidating DR to a degree and increasing fighter damage substantially beyond normal ranges.

Ultimatum479
2007-01-10, 04:13 PM
Even if a class can take a fighter-only feat, it wouldn't help, Callos. The requirements don't just say that they're fighter-only feats. They also have minimum fighter level requirements.

Also, why the hell is there a minimum BAB necessary for those feats? At least, a minimum BAB less than the fighter level. There's no way you can have less than that BAB if you've got that many fighter levels...

Matthew
2007-01-10, 09:03 PM
Okay, here is a comparative breakdown of Weapon Mastery versus Weapon Focus and Specialisation. It doesn't take into account Magic or Attribute Bonuses as they are subjective and ideally would equally apply anyway:

Level 1


Human Fighter 1 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave,
[Base Attack Bonus (1) + Weapon Focus (1) Power Attack (1)] = (1 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Power Attack (2)] = (2D6+2, 9.0)

Human Fighter 1 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave,
[Base Attack Bonus (1) + Weapon Mastery (1) Power Attack (1)] = (1 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Mastery (2) + Power Attack (2)] = (2D6+4, 11.0)

Human Fighter 1 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave,
[Base Attack Bonus (1) + Weapon Focus (1) Power Attack (1)] = (1 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+1, 5.5)

Human Fighter 1 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave,
[Base Attack Bonus (1) + Weapon Mastery (1) Power Attack (1)] = (1 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (1) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+2, 6.5)

Human Fighter 1 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (1) + Weapon Focus (1) Two Weapon Fighting (2)] = (0 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8)] = (1D8+0, 4.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (1) + Weapon Focus (1) Two Weapon Fighting (2)] = (0 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8)] = (1D8+0, 4.5)

Human Fighter 1 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (1) + Weapon Mastery (1) Two Weapon Fighting (2)] = (0 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Mastery (1)] = (1D8+1, 5.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (1) + Weapon Mastery (1) Two Weapon Fighting (2)] = (0 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Mastery (1)] = (1D8+1, 5.5)

Attacking Armour Class 10


Human Fighter 1 A 60% (2D6+2, 9.0)
Human Fighter 1 A 60% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Human Fighter 1 B 60% (1D8+1, 5.5)
Human Fighter 1 B 60% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Human Fighter 1 C 55% (1D8+1, 4.5) / 55% (1D8+1, 4.5)
Human Fighter 1 C 55% (1D8+1, 5.5) / 55% (1D8+1, 5.5)

Level 2



Human Fighter 2 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (2) + Weapon Focus (1) Power Attack (2)] = (1 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Power Attack (4)] = (2D6+4, 11.0)

Human Fighter 2 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (2) + Weapon Mastery (1) Power Attack (2)] = (1 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Mastery (2) + Power Attack (4)] = (2D6+6, 13.0)

Human Fighter 2 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (2) + Weapon Focus (1) Power Attack (2)] = (1 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+2, 6.5)

Human Fighter 2 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (2) + Weapon Mastery (1) Power Attack (2)] = (1 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (1) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)

Human Fighter 2 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack,
[Base Attack Bonus (2) + Weapon Focus (1) Two Weapon Fighting (2)] = (1 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8)] = (1D8+0, 4.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (2) + Weapon Focus (1) Two Weapon Fighting (2)] = (1 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8)] = (1D8+0, 4.5)

Human Fighter 2 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack,
[Base Attack Bonus (2) + Weapon Mastery (1) Two Weapon Fighting (2)] = (1 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (1)] = (1D8+1, 5.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (2) + Weapon Mastery (1) Two Weapon Fighting (2)] = (1 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (1)] = (1D8+1, 5.5)

Level 3



Human Fighter 3 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Weapon Focus (1) Power Attack (2)] = (2 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Power Attack (4)] = (2D6+4, 11.0)

Human Fighter 3 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Weapon Mastery (1) Power Attack (2)] = (2 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Mastery (2) + Power Attack (4)] = (2D6+6, 13.0)

Human Fighter 3 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Weapon Focus (1) Power Attack (2)] = (2 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+2, 6.5)

Human Fighter 3 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Weapon Mastery (1) Power Attack (2)] = (2 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (1) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)

Human Fighter 3 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave,
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Weapon Focus (1) Two Weapon Fighting (2)] = (2 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8)] = (1D8+0, 4.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Weapon Focus (1) Two Weapon Fighting (2)] = (2 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8)] = (1D8+0, 4.5)

Human Fighter 3 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave,
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Weapon Mastery (1) Two Weapon Fighting (2)] = (2 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (1)] = (1D8+1, 5.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Weapon Mastery (1) Two Weapon Fighting (2)] = (2 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (1)] = (1D8+1, 5.5)

Level 4



Human Fighter 4 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (4) + Weapon Focus (1) Power Attack (2)] = (3 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (4)] = (2D6+6, 13.0)

Human Fighter 4 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (4) + Weapon Mastery (1) Power Attack (2)] = (3 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Mastery (2) + Power Attack (4)] = (2D6+6, 13.0)

Human Fighter 4 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (4) + Weapon Focus (1) Power Attack (2)] = (3 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+4, 8.5)

Human Fighter 4 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (4) + Weapon Mastery (1) Power Attack (2)] = (3 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (1) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)

Human Fighter 4 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (4) + Weapon Focus (1) Two Weapon Fighting (2)] = (3 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2)] = (1D8+2, 6.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (4) + Weapon Focus (1) Two Weapon Fighting (2)] = (3 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2)] = (1D8+2, 6.5)

Human Fighter 4 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (4) + Weapon Mastery (1) Two Weapon Fighting (2)] = (3 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (1)] = (1D8+1, 5.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (4) + Weapon Mastery (1) Two Weapon Fighting (2)] = (3 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (1)] = (1D8+1, 5.5)

Level 5



Human Fighter 5 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (5) + Weapon Focus (1) Power Attack (2)] = (4 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (4)] = (2D6+6, 13.0)

Human Fighter 5 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (5) + Weapon Mastery (1) Power Attack (2)] = (4 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Mastery (2) + Power Attack (4)] = (2D6+6, 13.0)

Human Fighter 5 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (5) + Weapon Focus (1) Power Attack (2)] = (4 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+4, 8.5)

Human Fighter 5 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], [-]
[Base Attack Bonus (5) + Weapon Mastery (1) Power Attack (2)] = (4 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (1) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)

Human Fighter 5 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (5) + Weapon Focus (1) Two Weapon Fighting (2)] = (4 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2)] = (1D8+2, 6.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (5) + Weapon Focus (1) Two Weapon Fighting (2)] = (4 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2)] = (1D8+2, 6.5)

Human Fighter 5 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (5) + Weapon Mastery (1) Two Weapon Fighting (2)] = (4 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (1)] = (1D8+1, 5.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (5) + Weapon Mastery (1) Two Weapon Fighting (2)] = (4 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (1)] = (1D8+1, 5.5)

Level 6



Human Fighter 6 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (6) + Weapon Focus (1) Power Attack (2)] = (5 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (4)] = (2D6+6, 13.0)

Human Fighter 6 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], [-], Improved Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (6) + Weapon Mastery (2) Power Attack (3)] = (5 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Mastery (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (2D6+10, 17.0)

Human Fighter 6 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (6) + Weapon Focus (1) Power Attack (2)] = (5 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+4, 8.5)

Human Fighter 6 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], [-], Improved Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (6) + Weapon Mastery (2) Power Attack (3)] = (5 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Human Fighter 6 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (6) + Weapon Focus (1) Two Weapon Fighting (2)] = (5 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2)] = (1D8+2, 6.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (6) + Weapon Focus (1) Two Weapon Fighting (2)] = (5 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2)] = (1D8+2, 6.5)

Human Fighter 6 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Weapon Mastery (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (6) + Weapon Mastery (2) Two Weapon Fighting (2) Power Attack (1)] = (5 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (6) + Weapon Mastery (2) Two Weapon Fighting (2) Power Attack (1)] = (5 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)

Level 7



Human Fighter 7 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (7) + Weapon Focus (1) Power Attack (2)] = (6 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (4)] = (2D6+6, 13.0)

Human Fighter 7 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], [-], Improved Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (7) + Weapon Mastery (2) Power Attack (3)] = (6 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Mastery (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (2D6+10, 17.0)

Human Fighter 7 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (7) + Weapon Focus (1) Power Attack (2)] = (6 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+4, 8.5)

Human Fighter 7 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], [-], Improved Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (7) + Weapon Mastery (2) Power Attack (3)] = (6 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Human Fighter 7 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (7) + Weapon Focus (1) Two Weapon Fighting (2)] = (6 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2)] = (1D8+2, 6.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (7) + Weapon Focus (1) Two Weapon Fighting (2)] = (6 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2)] = (1D8+2, 6.5)

Human Fighter 7 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Weapon Mastery (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (7) + Weapon Mastery (2) Two Weapon Fighting (2) Power Attack (1)] = (6 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (7) + Weapon Mastery (2) Two Weapon Fighting (2) Power Attack (1)] = (6 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)

Level 8



Human Fighter 8 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (8) + Weapon Focus (2) Power Attack (3)] = (7 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (6)] = (2D6+8, 15.0)

Human Fighter 8 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], [-], Improved Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (8) + Weapon Mastery (2) Power Attack (3)] = (7 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Mastery (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (2D6+10, 17.0)

Human Fighter 8 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (8) + Weapon Focus (2) Power Attack (3)] = (7 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Human Fighter 8 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], [-], Improved Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (8) + Weapon Mastery (2) Power Attack (3)] = (7 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Human Fighter 8 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (8) + Weapon Focus (2) Two Weapon Fighting (2) Power Attack (1)] = (7 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (8) + Weapon Focus (2) Two Weapon Fighting (2) Power Attack (1)] = (7 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)

Human Fighter 8 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (8) + Weapon Mastery (2) Two Weapon Fighting (2) Power Attack (1)] = (7 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (8) + Weapon Mastery (2) Two Weapon Fighting (2) Power Attack (1)] = (7 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)

Level 9



Human Fighter 9 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (9) + Weapon Focus (2) Power Attack (3)] = (8 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (6)] = (2D6+8, 15.0)

Human Fighter 9 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], [-], Improved Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (9) + Weapon Mastery (2) Power Attack (3)] = (8 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Mastery (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (2D6+10, 17.0)

Human Fighter 9 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (9) + Weapon Focus (2) Power Attack (3)] = (8 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Human Fighter 9 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], [-], Improved Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (9) + Weapon Mastery (2) Power Attack (3)] = (8 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Human Fighter 9 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (9) + Weapon Focus (2) Two Weapon Fighting (2) Power Attack (1)] = (8 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (9) + Weapon Focus (2) Two Weapon Fighting (2) Power Attack (1)] = (8 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)

Human Fighter 9 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (9) + Weapon Mastery (2) Two Weapon Fighting (2) Power Attack (1)] = (8 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (9) + Weapon Mastery (2) Two Weapon Fighting (2) Power Attack (1)] = (8 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)

Level 10



Human Fighter 10 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (10) + Weapon Focus (2) Power Attack (3)] = (9 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (6)] = (2D6+8, 15.0)

Human Fighter 10 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], [-], Improved Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), [-], [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (10) + Weapon Mastery (2) Power Attack (3)] = (9 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Mastery (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (2D6+10, 17.0)

Human Fighter 10 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (10) + Weapon Focus (2) Power Attack (3)] = (9 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Human Fighter 10 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], [-], Improved Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), [-], [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (10) + Weapon Mastery (2) Power Attack (3)] = (9 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Human Fighter 10 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (10) + Weapon Focus (2) Two Weapon Fighting (2) Power Attack (1)] = (9 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (10) + Weapon Focus (2) Two Weapon Fighting (2) Power Attack (1)] = (9 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)

Human Fighter 10 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (10) + Weapon Mastery (2) Two Weapon Fighting (2) Power Attack (1)] = (9 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (10) + Weapon Mastery (2) Two Weapon Fighting (2) Power Attack (1)] = (9 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)

Matthew
2007-01-10, 09:04 PM
Level 11



Human Fighter 11 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (11) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (3)] = (10 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (6)] = (2D6+8, 15.0)

Human Fighter 11 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], [-], Improved Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), [-], [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (11) + Weapon Mastery (2) – Power Attack (3)] = (10 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Mastery (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (2D6+10, 17.0)

Human Fighter 11 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (11) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (3)] = (10 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Human Fighter 11 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], [-], Improved Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), [-], [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (11) + Weapon Mastery (2) – Power Attack (3)] = (10 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Human Fighter 11 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (11) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1)] = (10 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (11) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1)] = (10 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)

Human Fighter 11 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (11) + Weapon Mastery (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1)] = (10 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (11) + Weapon Mastery (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1)] = (10 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)

Level 12



Human Fighter 12 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (12) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (3)] = (11 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (2D6+10, 17.0)

Human Fighter 12 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], [-], Improved Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), [-], [-], [-], [-], Greater Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (12) + Weapon Mastery (3) – Power Attack (4)] = (11 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Mastery (6) + Power Attack (8)] = (2D6+14, 21.0)

Human Fighter 12 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (12) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (3)] = (11 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)

Human Fighter 12 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], [-], Improved Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), [-], [-], [-], [-], Greater Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (12) + Weapon Mastery (3) – Power Attack (4)] = (11 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (3) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)

Human Fighter 12 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Greater Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (12) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1)] = (11 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (12) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1)] = (11 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Human Fighter 12 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), [-], [-], [-], Greater Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Greater Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (12) + Weapon Mastery (3) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (2)] = (11 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (3) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (12) + Weapon Mastery (3) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (2)] = (11 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (3) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)


Level 13



Human Fighter 13 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (13) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (3)] = (12 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (2D6+10, 17.0)

Human Fighter 13 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], [-], Improved Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), [-], [-], [-], [-], Greater Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (13) + Weapon Mastery (3) – Power Attack (4)] = (12 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Mastery (6) + Power Attack (8)] = (2D6+14, 21.0)

Human Fighter 13 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (13) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (3)] = (12 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)

Human Fighter 13 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], [-], Improved Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), [-], [-], [-], [-], Greater Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (13) + Weapon Mastery (3) – Power Attack (4)] = (12 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (3) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)

Human Fighter 13 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Greater Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (13) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1)] = (12 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (13) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1)] = (12 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Human Fighter 13 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), [-], [-], [-], Greater Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Greater Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (13) + Weapon Mastery (3) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (2)] = (12 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (3) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (13) + Weapon Mastery (3) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (2)] = (12 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (3) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Level 14



Human Fighter 14 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (14) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (3)] = (13 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (2D6+10, 17.0)

Human Fighter 14 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], [-], Improved Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), [-], [-], [-], [-], Greater Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (14) + Weapon Mastery (3) – Power Attack (4)] = (13 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Mastery (6) + Power Attack (8)] = (2D6+14, 21.0)

Human Fighter 14 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (14) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (3)] = (13 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)

Human Fighter 14 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], [-], Improved Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), [-], [-], [-], [-], Greater Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (14) + Weapon Mastery (3) – Power Attack (4)] = (13 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (3) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)

Human Fighter 14 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Greater Two Weapon Fighting, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (14) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1)] = (13 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (14) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1)] = (13 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Human Fighter 14 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), [-], [-], [-], Greater Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Greater Two Weapon Fighting, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (14) + Weapon Mastery (3) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (2)] = (13 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (3) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (14) + Weapon Mastery (3) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (2)] = (13 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (3) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Level 15



Human Fighter 15 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (15) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (3)] = (14 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (2D6+10, 17.0)

Human Fighter 15 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], [-], Improved Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), [-], [-], [-], [-], Greater Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (15) + Weapon Mastery (3) – Power Attack (4)] = (14 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Mastery (6) + Power Attack (8)] = (2D6+14, 21.0)

Human Fighter 15 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (15) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (3)] = (14 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)

Human Fighter 15 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], [-], Improved Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), [-], [-], [-], [-], Greater Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (15) + Weapon Mastery (3) – Power Attack (4)] = (14 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (3) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)

Human Fighter 15 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Greater Two Weapon Fighting, [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (15) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1)] = (14 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (15) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1)] = (14 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Human Fighter 15 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), [-], [-], [-], Greater Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Greater Two Weapon Fighting, [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (15) + Weapon Mastery (3) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (2)] = (14 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (3) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (15) + Weapon Mastery (3) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (2)] = (14 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (3) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Level 16



Human Fighter 16 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (16) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (3)] = (15 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (2D6+10, 17.0)

Human Fighter 16 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], [-], Improved Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), [-], [-], [-], [-], Greater Weapon Mastery (Great Sword), [-], [-], [-], Perfect Weapon Mastery (Great Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (16) + Weapon Mastery (4) – Power Attack (5)] = (15 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Mastery (8) + Power Attack (10)] = (2D6+14, 25.0)

Human Fighter 16 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (16) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (3)] = (15 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)

Human Fighter 16 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], [-], Improved Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), [-], [-], [-], [-], Greater Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), [-], [-], [-], Perfect Weapon Mastery (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (16) + Weapon Mastery (4) – Power Attack (5)] = (15 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (4) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+9, 13.5)

Human Fighter 16 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Greater Two Weapon Fighting, [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (16) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1)] = (15 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (16) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1)] = (15 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Human Fighter 16 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), [-], [-], [-], Greater Weapon Mastery (Long Sword), Greater Two Weapon Fighting, [-], [-], Perfect Weapon Mastery (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (16) + Weapon Mastery (4) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3)] = (15 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (4) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (15) + Weapon Mastery (3) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3)] = (15 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Mastery (4) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)


1) Getting Weapon Mastery as a Ray Effect is pretty unlikely to do much for a Full Caster. A +1 Attack and Damage Bonus is a high price to pay for losing one Spell Caster Level. For Gish Builds it's more feasible, but then that's who it is intended for. Gish are a middle road and could probably do with this as an option. If you feel strongly that it shouldn't be available to them, then the removal of this option would restrict them to Weapon Focus (which can already be taken by Spell Casters for Ray Attacks).

2) Fair enough. The damage output above shows that there is a hefty difference for Two Handed Fighters, but that is the point in that style of fighting in D&D.

3) Sorry, but you are wrong about this Fangthane because you have overlooked the cheese that is Animated Shield. It's available relatively early by the RAW and gives the Two Handed Fighter every advantage that he missed before. At low levels Weapon and Shield is the way to go, but once that Animated Shield appears the whole discussion is moot. Two Weapon Fighting is currently inferior for a number of reasons: Restricted to Full Attack, Requires more Feats just to be accessed, Dependent on two Attributes (Strength and Dexterity), Needs to hit twice on lower AB to do comparable Damage to Two Handed style, Both Weapons must be Enchanted.

4) At Level 16 the Weapon Mastery Fighter is in a better position than the Focus / Specialist, but that's the intent - a small boost at low level and a bigger boost at high level.

Thanks for continuing to take an interest, any further comments (and rebuttals) welcome as always.

The minimum BAB is just there for completeness.

Matthew
2007-06-21, 04:57 PM
So, I have been thinking about these Feats, and it occured to me that it might be a cool idea to allow a Character with this Feat to use it to increase AC instead of AB and DB. I'm having trouble coming up with a way to do it without it becoming unbalanced via Two Weapon and Multi Weapon Fighting.

So, the idea is that a Level 17 Character would get +5 AB and +5 DB or could swap out some or all of these Bonuses for AC. How should this interact with Two Weapon Fighting? Some sort of cap, perhaps? What about with Shields? Should we distinguish between Ranged and Melee Attacks? What about the Bonus, should it apply to all opponents, or just designated opponents?

Fax Celestis
2007-06-21, 05:06 PM
Why not make it use the same mechanic as Two-Weapon Defense?

Cybren
2007-06-21, 05:06 PM
Wait, so this gives +2 damage per time you took it when using a two hander? Because the first post doesn't say that.

I don't really like that idea anyway since it just furthers the two-hander bias of the game anyway.

Matthew
2007-06-21, 05:15 PM
Oops, sorry Cybren; yeah it did originally, as it was replacing Weapon Specialisation on a Four Feat chain balanced against Two Weapon Fighting, but I have since revised it into a 5 Feat Chain and discarded that idea.

Fax: Yeah, I was thinking about that a bit, but I want a Character to be able to swap out Bonuses from any weapon they are holding to use as AC:

So, a Two Weapon Fighter 16 with four of these Feast would be able to do this:

Primary Hand: +2 AB, +2 DB, +2 AC,
Off Hand: +2 AB, +2 DB, +2 AC,

But not this:

Primary Hand: +4 AC
Off Hand: +4 AC

because it might lead to this:

Marilith: +24 AC...

Jasdoif
2007-06-21, 06:39 PM
Yeah, I was thinking about that a bit, but I want a Character to be able to swap out Bonuses from any weapon they are holding to use as AC:

So, a Two Weapon Fighter 16 with four of these Feast would be able to do this:

Primary Hand: +2 AB, +2 DB, +2 AC,
Off Hand: +2 AB, +2 DB, +2 AC,

But not this:

Primary Hand: +4 AC
Off Hand: +4 AC

because it might lead to this:

Marilith: +24 AC...For the sake of simplicity, I suggest making the AC bonus typed, so it doesn't stack across multiple weapons. It'll be easier to track then some collective limit imposed across several weapons.

I'm thinking a competence bonus, or maybe a shield bonus if you don't want it to stack with shields or two-weapon-defense.

Matthew
2007-06-23, 11:44 AM
Hmmn. Not a bad idea. Actually, though, I think I may have cracked it this time with something like this:


You may assign one or more points of AB and DB derived from Weapon Mastery with a weapon to AC against one melee opponent as a Parry Bonus. However, this AC Bonus does not stack with any Parry Bonus derived from any other weapon with which you have Weapon Mastery.

Can anybody help me tidy this clause up? I definitely want it to stack with Shields and such, so I think that this is a good compromise.

Jasdoif
2007-06-23, 12:09 PM
Maybe this isn't what you meant by "tidy", but I'm trying to prevent holes here.


You can use Weapon Mastery to increase your defense instead of your offense. For each -1 penalty you take on attack bonus and damage bonus with a particular weapon, you gain a +1 parrying bonus against melee attacks from a foe you designate.

You cannot take a penalty greater then the bonuses you get from Weapon Mastery with that weapon. The attack and damage penalties do not apply to attacks you may make with other weapons. You choose the amount of penalty and bonus at the start of your turn as a free action, and they remain until the start of your next turn. You can choose the same amount of penalty and bonus then, or a different or no amount.

Parrying bonuses from different weapons do not stack, even if you have Weapon Mastery with multiple weapons or wield multiple weapons of the same type. You can designate a new foe as a free action during your turn.

Vaniel
2007-06-23, 12:14 PM
THe one thing I don't like about this is, by the way I read it, is you can take the same feat with the same weapon and the bonuses stack. I agree that feat trees for the fighter is underpowered when high level.

Solutions:

1) In a fix I've read, and that I will be using, one of it's abilities was called "Disciplined Defense". This feat granted a +1 AC for each specific weapon feat that the fighter took.

2) For you swapping bonuses, there's aleady a feat for that somewhere..."Combat Expertise". Personally, I see no need to add such an effect in the feat already.

3) The thing with two-weapon fighting is the feat tree, again, not worth it. A fix I've seen run around is to incorporate Two-Weapon Defense in Two-Weapon Fighting, and make it progress with other two weapon feats. So, the two weapon fighting feats would grant +3 to AC (or more, depending on the house rule). Also, make the two-weapon fighting tree lose their penalty completely when achieving the feat tree in total, and maybe gain bonuses...

/Vaniel

Matthew
2007-06-23, 01:45 PM
Maybe this isn't what you meant by "tidy", but I'm trying to prevent holes here.
That's pretty good Jasoif. I think you may be right thata certan degree of verbosity is going to be required for the sake of clarity.


THe one thing I don't like about this is, by the way I read it, is you can take the same feat with the same weapon and the bonuses stack. I agree that feat trees for the fighter is underpowered when high level.

Note that these do not stack with Weapon Focus, Specialisation, Greater Focus, Greater Specialisation or Melee Weapon Mastery, which is a currently legal five Feat chain that grants +4 AB and +6 DB. All this is offering is an alternative five Feat chain that grants +5 AB and +5 DB in a cleaner progression that can be swapped out ala Combat Expertise/Dodge.


Solutions:

1) In a fix I've read, and that I will be using, one of it's abilities was called "Disciplined Defense". This feat granted a +1 AC for each specific weapon feat that the fighter took.

Yep, that was one of Deep Blue's fixes. I quite like it, but I wasn't completely sold on it.


2) For you swapping bonuses, there's aleady a feat for that somewhere..."Combat Expertise". Personally, I see no need to add such an effect in the feat already.

Yes, I know, but this is in an effort to keep Feat Intensity down, allow Characters with less than 13 Intelligence some measure of defence and increase the usefulness of the Weapon Mastery Chain.


3) The thing with two-weapon fighting is the feat tree, again, not worth it. A fix I've seen run around is to incorporate Two-Weapon Defense in Two-Weapon Fighting, and make it progress with other two weapon feats. So, the two weapon fighting feats would grant +3 to AC (or more, depending on the house rule). Also, make the two-weapon fighting tree lose their penalty completely when achieving the feat tree in total, and maybe gain bonuses...

Yes, I tried that method a while back, but in the end abandoned it (you may even be thinking of my Thread). Truly, you do not need to explain the worthlessness of the Two Weapon Fighting chain. At this point, I am just in favour of giving that chainout for free to Melee Classes.

Leon
2007-06-23, 02:00 PM
How does it mesh with the classes that "count as Fighter" such as Warblade?

Matthew
2007-06-23, 02:08 PM
Truthfully, any way you like. I don't use the Tome of Battle, so I haven't given it much thought, but I would imagine that any Class that can acquire Weapon Specialisation and Melee Mastery should be able to acquire these Feats.

Leon
2007-06-23, 02:17 PM
Fair enough, was just curious

Quite liked the look of the other feats you linked as well

Matthew
2007-06-28, 07:00 PM
I take it you are referring to:

[Feat] Even Handed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1793539)
[Feat] Mobile Two Weapon Fighting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1798151)

Thanks for the feedback; if you like those, you might like these bits and pieces, which are intended to link in with those mentioned above:

[Feat] Spear Charge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31249)
[Feat] Rapid Shooting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34559)
[Feat] Two Weapon Mastery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44663)
[Feat] Avoidance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46955)
[Feat] Shield Block (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43960)
[Feat] Two Weapon Fighting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31337) (Alternative)
[Feat] Two Weapon Defence (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31338) (Alternative)
[House] Simple Weapons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31637) (Alternate)
[House] Martial Weapons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31788) (Alternate)

UPDATED AND REVISED
(Thanks to Jasdoif for the help with the wording)

It looks pretty wordy now, but I think I have covered all the bases; let me know what you think.

Jasdoif
2007-06-29, 01:27 AM
Looking good! Although I'm not too thrilled about the fighter level requirement, I may get used to that part of it :smalltongue:

I'm a little confused on some of the new particulars though, especially the ones concerning multiple foes, and the one with shields.
Can you get a defense bonus from multiple weapons if you apply them against different foes (say, you have three Weapon Mastery (dagger) feats and you're TWF-ing them; can you take -3 on each to get +3 AC vs two different foes, or +1 AC vs six, etc.)?
If you have a shield and a weapon at the same time, can you apply a ranged AC from the shield and a melee AC from the weapon to the same target at the same time?
Can you use the shield to provide a melee AC bonus instead of a ranged AC bonus?

For ease of use, the thoughts that quickly came to mind are...only letting one weapon grant AC bonuses at a time, shields grant their AC bonus to melee and ranged at the same time, and you can designate as many foes as you have feats, and you get the AC bonus vs them all at the same time. If you like, maybe the AC bonus is reduced per extra foe (say, you have four Weapon Mastery (rapier) feats. You could take -4 to your AB/DB to get +4 melee AC vs one foe, or +3 vs two foes, or +2 vs three foes, or +1 vs four foes.)

Matthew
2007-06-30, 10:36 PM
Hey, sorry it took me a while to reply to this.



Can you get a defense bonus from multiple weapons if you apply them against different foes (say, you have three Weapon Mastery (dagger) feats and you're TWF-ing them; can you take -3 on each to get +3 AC vs two different foes, or +1 AC vs six, etc.)?

Yes.


If you have a shield and a weapon at the same time, can you apply a ranged AC from the shield and a melee AC from the weapon to the same target at the same time?

If you had +1 from the Shield and +2 from the Weapon, you could apply +1 from each to a single enemy for a total of +2 in Melee. Against the same enemy you would get +1 at Range. Essentially, the Shield AC Bonus counts against both Melee and Ranged Attacks.


Can you use the shield to provide a melee AC bonus instead of a ranged AC bonus?

The intention is that a Shield counts for both. So if you apply +2 AC from a Shield against an individual in Melee you also get +2 AC against him at Range. The idea being that Shields can be used to block ranged attacks, but other weapons not so much.


For ease of use, the thoughts that quickly came to mind are...only letting one weapon grant AC bonuses at a time, shields grant their AC bonus to melee and ranged at the same time, and you can designate as many foes as you have feats, and you get the AC bonus vs them all at the same time. If you like, maybe the AC bonus is reduced per extra foe (say, you have four Weapon Mastery (rapier) feats. You could take -4 to your AB/DB to get +4 melee AC vs one foe, or +3 vs two foes, or +2 vs three foes, or +1 vs four foes.)

Hmmn. Yeah, have to think about that. I'm not entirely fixed on how it should work, but I think I want to make it more advantageous to defend with two weapons than one.

Jasdoif
2007-07-02, 02:37 AM
I see...OK, I think I have something.

You can get your parry bonus to AC in two ways. You can apply it all to one foe, or you can apply part of it to all foes. To apply it to all foes, the penalty you take on AB/DB must be 3 or higher; you get a parry bonus against all foes equal to the penalty -2. As a special case, these two different sources of parry bonus stack with each other, but a weapon can only be used for one or the other. Two bonuses of the same source don't stack, as usual.

Say, you're TWFing daggers and have three Weapon Mastery (dagger) feats. You can take the -3 penalty on one to get +3 AC vs one foe, and can take the -3 penalty on the other dagger to get a +1 AC vs all foes. Because the two sources stack, you end up with +4 AC vs that one foe, and +1 AC vs others. With four feats, you end up with +6 or +2; and with five you end up with +8 or +3.

This way, using two for defense is indeed quite viable, while not giving unbeatable AC to the Marilith (though the Marilith could get the single-foe AC bonus against multiple opponents at the same time).

It also cuts out some of the complexity of distributing the bonus across multiple foes, as you either pick a single foe or pick everyone.

Matthew
2007-07-06, 08:10 PM
I think you are right that I have been making this too complicated. I think I'll drop the whole 'specific opponent' aspect and just make it a 1:1 AB and DB to AC exchange limited by the Highest Mastery Level... maybe even just AB to AC exchange, as that would eliminate the DB problem with multiple Weapons.

Revised, Edited and Updated

I think this simpler version works much better, saving on the confusion that was necessitating such a large entry.