Help with my guy (3.5)

[tonitoniboston]

My friend (the gm) says I will fall greatly behind everyone with my character sice he starts of strong. They will level and I will be stuck. I am playing a half dragon barbarian. Is there any particular item, weapon, etc. or something to do to keep buffing up his stats, money and items? I don't want to fall behind.

[Snowbluff]

Ask your DM about LA buy-off. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) You should not be as far behind if you use this.

[Red Fel]

My friend (the gm) says I will fall greatly behind everyone with my character sice he starts of strong. They will level and I will be stuck. I am playing a half dragon barbarian. Is there any particular item, weapon, etc. or something to do to keep buffing up his stats, money and items? I don't want to fall behind.

First off, we need a little more information about things. What gear does your Barb have? Feats? What level? What's the base creature for your Half-Dragon template? What level/classes/races are the rest of your party? This information can help gauge the relative powers of your character versus everyone else's.

Now, from what you've given us in terms of information, there are two reasons why you will be left behind.

1: You are a Half-Dragon. That means you have taken a +3 level adjustment (assuming standard Half-Dragon). That means you will be behind your party in leveling for some time. You could try for a LA buy-off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm), if your DM is willing - this will allow you to close the gap somewhat. Also, as a lower-level character, you will gain XP faster than your party members. Nonetheless, this will hinder you in the long run, prevent you from reaching level 20, and so forth. LAs hurt, and there's little way to get around that once the game has started.

2: You are a Barbarian. Ordinarily, that's not a tremendous problem - Barbarians are an excellent melee chassis in core. That said, if your party consists primarily of casters, or non-core classes (such as ToB classes and the like), they will generally outperform you. They would likely do so even if you were not already crippled by your Half-Dragon LA. Barbarian is a strong class, and has some excellent ACFs, but ultimately spellcasters dwarf melee.

Again, I'll wait to see what your other stats are, and what the party is playing, but these two aspects are likely what the DM was pointing to. One of them (your class) can be fixed with multiclassing and ACFs. The other (Half-Dragon) can be ameliorated by buy-off, but that's not going to fully fix the problem.

EDIT: Swordsage'd re: Buy-off.

[Feint's End]

Ask your DM about LA buy-off. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) You should not be as far behind if you use this.

IIRC HAlf Dragon has a LA of 4 so earliest buyoff level is 16. That said he will eventually be behind. It's kinda bad to start of with such a high la. Ask your Dm if you can start buyoff at ECL 3 (meaning you can do right away at level 2) since that would give you a bought of la at level 12 (level 11 then with no la left and your group will probably be 2 levels ahead or so). That would be a very fair and playable solution for you.

[Snowbluff]

EDIT: Swordsage'd re: Buy-off.
Oh yeah!

IIRC HAlf Dragon has a LA of 4 so earliest buyoff level is 16. That said he will eventually be behind. It's kinda bad to start of with such a high la. Ask your Dm if you can start buyoff at ECL 3 (meaning you can do right away at level 2) since that would give you a bought of la at level 12 (level 11 then with no la left and your group will probably be 2 levels ahead or so). That would be a very fair and playable solution for you.

Red Fel has Swordsaged you with the proper LA. It's a Swordsage convention!

[Red Fel]

Oh yeah!

Red Fel has Swordsaged you with the proper LA. It's a Swordsage convention!

Go Swordsage, Go Swordsage, Go!

[nedz]

Go Swordsage, Go Swordsage, Go!

So you're suggesting Half Dragon / Barbarian / Swordsage ?

[Feint's End]

aaaah ... I bow to the Masterswordsage ... I didn't even realize I was swordsaged :smallmad:

Still my suggestion stands ....

[Red Fel]

So you're suggesting Half Dragon / Barbarian / Swordsage ?

Actually, my suggestion involved going Anthropomorphic Turtle / Fighter / Swordsage, focus on Shadow Hand.

[Snowbluff]

Dark Marrulurk Swordsage with Dark Stalker and Mindsight. Be afraid.:smalleek:

[tonitoniboston]

Str. 23
Dex 15
Con 20
Int 17
Wis 15
Cha 13

2 weapon fighting
Anything else you need to know

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, I'd like to know why you have chose this template. What about it made you go "this is cool!"? Claws? Stats? Breath?

[Sir Chuckles]

Str. 23
Dex 15
Con 20
Int 17
Wis 15
Cha 13

2 weapon fighting
Anything else you need to know

Yeah. Plenty.

What's your party consist of?
What your other half?
What are you swingin' around?
What type of campaign is it?

Because if your party is a Human Fighter, Gnome Rogue, and Half-Elf Healer, you're in little trouble at all.

[tonitoniboston]

Yeah. Plenty.

What's your party consist of?
What your other half?
What are you swingin' around?
What type of campaign is it?

Because if your party is a Human Fighter, Gnome Rogue, and Half-Elf Healer, you're in little trouble at all.

My other half is human.
I am using great club.
My party: elf rogue, dwarf cleric, elf ranger, celestial bard

[Callin]

Actually, my suggestion involved going Anthropomorphic Turtle / Fighter / Swordsage, focus on Shadow Hand.

MUST DO THIS NOW

[Red Fel]

My other half is human.
I am using great club.
My party: elf rogue, dwarf cleric, elf ranger, celestial bard

Okay. So you have a Human Half-Dragon Barbarian, an Elf Rogue, a Dwarf Cleric, an Elf Ranger, and a Celestial something Bard. (Remember that Celestial, like Half-Dragon, is a template - it goes on something else.)

On the plus side, your Bard has at least a +2 LA, so you're not alone in lagging behind.

The Bard, unless he gets heavily optimized, is not likely to out-damage you. However, he has tactical uses that you don't, such as his spells and his ability to pluck a lyre like nobody's business.

The Cleric, assuming he focuses well on his casting, has the capacity to grossly overshadow you. By endgame, he's using Gate and Miracle, and you're still hitting things with a pointy stick.

The Ranger... Rangers are complicated. They can either be very good, or very bad, depending on how he plays it. But at the very least, he's got an animal companion, and spells, so he's going to have a few more tricks than you do.

If the Rogue outperforms you, it will be either because of your LA or because he smartly PrC'd. Straight Rogue is not a very solid chassis. On the other hand, with a Ranger and his animal companion, a Rogue can pull off a lot of flanking, which means Sneak Attack. Which will spike his damage substantially.

Relatively speaking, your position isn't as bad as your DM said it was. Your Ranger may have more tricks, but he's not going to be the most powerful guy on the block. Your Rogue will likely be ashamed of himself. Your Cleric will mock you, and your Bard will inspire courage. You? You will shred face.

So let's look at you. Barbarian is a solid chassis, good. Your stats are very good for a Barbarian build.

And you took TWF. Bad. Bad Barbarian. No cake for you.

You have a massive Str bonus. Use it to its fullest. Use a single weapon in both hands. Perform unnecessary impromptu reconstructive facial surgery. Power Attack will be your bread and butter. Don't waste your abilities on TWF. Grab the biggest weapon you can, ideally one with reach, and lay into anything you can get near. No shields; use both hands when you handle your weapon. (Get your mind out of the gutter.)

My advice, take the Spirit Lion Totem variant from Complete Champion. This means you give up Fast Movement for Pounce, which means you can take a full attack action after a charge. Milk that sucker.

Take Power Attack. Max it every turn. Using a two-handed weapon, that means you add twice your Strength modifier to attacks, plus double the Power Attack bonus. You will crush things.

That's just for starters, of course. As a Half-Dragon, you can take Dragon Wings. As a Human base on your Half-Dragon, you get a bonus feat at first level. Take Dragon Wings at first level. Now you can glide. If you like, take Improved Dragon Wings. Enjoy a form of non-dispellable flight. If you insist on taking Medium armor, take Reinforced Wings, although at this point that's a lot of feats (and really, you could have done all of this with just the Dragonborn template instead of Half-Dragon).

Your character is a Barbarian. Unless you PrC out, you will primarily be in the business of crushing things. You should be maximizing your ability to crush.


MUST DO THIS NOW

Turtle Power!

[jokeaccount]

Im pretty sure since he has taken a template he will not get more XP (except if he buys off a level) since his ECL will still be the same as the party's. Also I would guess what his DM meant is that since he will be essentially stuck at level 1 until the others reach level 5 he will be 4 BAB behind than the party and thus unable to hit anything in those encounters. If the DM follows the rules the encounter CR should consider him as a 5 level character but he will be a level 1 character with extra stats and nothing else. This will hinder him greatly and with his measly 12 HP he can easily get OHKO'd (especially as a frontliner). Am I missing something? 'Cause if not you're in for a tough time. Not worth the LA at such high levels IMO

[tonitoniboston]

Okay. So you have a Human Half-Dragon Barbarian, an Elf Rogue, a Dwarf Cleric, an Elf Ranger, and a Celestial something Bard. (Remember that Celestial, like Half-Dragon, is a template - it goes on something else.)

On the plus side, your Bard has at least a +2 LA, so you're not alone in lagging behind.

The Bard, unless he gets heavily optimized, is not likely to out-damage you. However, he has tactical uses that you don't, such as his spells and his ability to pluck a lyre like nobody's business.

The Cleric, assuming he focuses well on his casting, has the capacity to grossly overshadow you. By endgame, he's using Gate and Miracle, and you're still hitting things with a pointy stick.

The Ranger... Rangers are complicated. They can either be very good, or very bad, depending on how he plays it. But at the very least, he's got an animal companion, and spells, so he's going to have a few more tricks than you do.

If the Rogue outperforms you, it will be either because of your LA or because he smartly PrC'd. Straight Rogue is not a very solid chassis. On the other hand, with a Ranger and his animal companion, a Rogue can pull off a lot of flanking, which means Sneak Attack. Which will spike his damage substantially.

Relatively speaking, your position isn't as bad as your DM said it was. Your Ranger may have more tricks, but he's not going to be the most powerful guy on the block. Your Rogue will likely be ashamed of himself. Your Cleric will mock you, and your Bard will inspire courage. You? You will shred face.

So let's look at you. Barbarian is a solid chassis, good. Your stats are very good for a Barbarian build.

And you took TWF. Bad. Bad Barbarian. No cake for you.

You have a massive Str bonus. Use it to its fullest. Use a single weapon in both hands. Perform unnecessary impromptu reconstructive facial surgery. Power Attack will be your bread and butter. Don't waste your abilities on TWF. Grab the biggest weapon you can, ideally one with reach, and lay into anything you can get near. No shields; use both hands when you handle your weapon. (Get your mind out of the gutter.)

My advice, take the Spirit Lion Totem variant from Complete Champion. This means you give up Fast Movement for Pounce, which means you can take a full attack action after a charge. Milk that sucker.

Take Power Attack. Max it every turn. Using a two-handed weapon, that means you add twice your Strength modifier to attacks, plus double the Power Attack bonus. You will crush things.

That's just for starters, of course. As a Half-Dragon, you can take Dragon Wings. As a Human base on your Half-Dragon, you get a bonus feat at first level. Take Dragon Wings at first level. Now you can glide. If you like, take Improved Dragon Wings. Enjoy a form of non-dispellable flight. If you insist on taking Medium armor, take Reinforced Wings, although at this point that's a lot of feats (and really, you could have done all of this with just the Dragonborn template instead of Half-Dragon).

Your character is a Barbarian. Unless you PrC out, you will primarily be in the business of crushing things. You should be maximizing your ability to crush.



Turtle Power!

To be clear, I think I am dragon born, not a half. I made it dragon born. My dm keeps using interchangeably with half dragon. Does me being dragon born change anything?

[Snowbluff]

Do you have the breath weapon, wings, or sense? Breath weapons can be fun to optimize...

[Grim Portent]

To be clear, I think I am dragon born, not a half. I made it dragon born. My dm keeps using interchangeably with half dragon. Does me being dragon born change anything?

Dragonborn get less stuff but have no LA at all.

[(Un)Inspired]

Turtle Power!

Now all I need to figure out is how to represent cool but rude, mechanically.

[tonitoniboston]

Do you have the breath weapon, wings, or sense? Breath weapons can be fun to optimize...

I do have breath weapon, and I have been using it well >:D
Could someone be more specific on bonuses lost by being a dragon born as opposed to a half dragon?

[Grim Portent]

I do have breath weapon, and I have been using it well >:D
Could someone be more specific on bonuses lost by being a dragon born as opposed to a half dragon?

Half dragons get

+8 Strength
+2 Int, Con and Charisma
Darkvision 60 feet
Breath weapon 1/day
Natural Armour +4
Immune to Sleep and Paralysis and one energy type
Natural Weapons
LA+3 (Which is really bad)

Dragonborn get

+2 Con
-2 Dex
+2 Dodge bonus to AC against dragons
Immune to dragons frightful presence
A choice of Wings, breath attack or darkvision
LA+0 (Which is good)

[tonitoniboston]

Is it in the rules that you can spend extra points to train in skills you don't have? Or is that a home rule my dm has?

[nedz]

Is it in the rules that you can spend extra points to train in skills you don't have? Or is that a home rule my dm has?

Wait, what ?

Class skills, in the class you are currently levelling, cost 1 point.
Cross class skills cost 2 points.

Skills which are Class skills in any class you have ever taken have a limit of Character Level +3, other skills have a limit of half that.

[Zweisteine]

Is it in the rules that you can spend extra points to train in skills you don't have? Or is that a home rule my dm has?

If you refer to skills that are not class skills, yes, you may normally buy them for twice the cost of class skills.

(Protip: MAke sure you understand all of the basic rules, at least in passing, before you play anything too complex, like a creature with a template or level adjustment. Best place for the core rules (and some other rules, too): the SRD (http://www.d20srd/org/))


There is an enormous difference between Half-Dragon and Dragonborn.
Half-Dragon means one of your parents was a dragon, and you get a load of dragon abilities, and a rather large level adjustment.
Dragonborn costs 100gp to get, and means you have sworn your life to Bahamut, and are devoted to hunting the spawn of Tiamat. That is an enormous Roleplaying requirement, and going against it can make you lose the abilities it grants, but it has no level adjustment (though is does take away most normal racial stuff, like the Human bonus feat).

If you are playing a Half-Dragon because of the cool fluff (just for the sake of being a dragon, because dragons are cool), I might recommend the Draconic Template instead. It gives fewer abilities for a smaller LA, and still makes you look like a dragon. It's in Races of the Dragon, I believe.

[Grim Portent]

Although Draconic lacks a breath weapon.

[nedz]

Although Draconic lacks a breath weapon.

Well Half Dragon's is only 1/day, though there are feats to fix that.

Sorcerers can get a Breath Weapon easily enough at level 1, if that's what you want; and of course there's the DFA.

[Sir Chuckles]

Half-Dragon is not the same as Dragonborn.
Remember that. If you're DM says otherwise, slap him with a halibut.

If you ARE a dragonborn, you have no LA and have no worry of being overshadowed by anyone except the Cleric. No worry doesn't mean not at all, though. Even so little as a properly built Expert can outshine an improperly built Sorcerer.

Also, Two Weapon Fighting yet you're using a Great Club (Great Club in and of itself makes me want to vomit, by the way) makes absolutely no sense, as a Dragonborn gets no natural weapons.

[Chronos]

Quoth Red Fel:

Also, as a lower-level character, you will gain XP faster than your party members.
XP gained is based on ECL, not on level, so he wouldn't count as "lower-level", and would remain behind.

That is, if he's actually a half-dragon. If he's instead a dragonborn, then there's no particular reason to assume he's going to fall behind. Putting dragonborn on a human base race is less than optimal, but it's hardly crippling: You can make a solid, competent character from that.