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Valairn
2007-01-07, 02:07 PM
I've heard a lot about a battlefield control fighter using chains and stuff to trip opponents, though I've never actually seen a build for one, and was just curious what one actually looked like and how you would play one, any takers?

Arbitrarity
2007-01-07, 02:13 PM
I made something like that at level 8...

Not optimized well, but it involves a lot of potions of enlarge person, spiked chain, improved trip, and whirlwind attack.

Since reach weapon doubles natural reach, he chugs a potion, uses his now larger spiked chain, and with his 20 ft reach, whirlwind attacks, tripping everyone within 20 ft. Also, if anyone moves within 20 ft, they fall. He whacks people while they are down. And with +12 or so on trip checks, he trips like no one else.

EDIT: What the heck is Stand Still anyway?
EDIT2: Ok, prevent foes from fleeing or closing... right. And in the XPH?

Ikkitosen
2007-01-07, 02:15 PM
Basically you get a chain, Combaty Reflexes and Imp Trip and Stand Still. Then anything that provokes within your reach (which you can expand, as mentioned) gets stopped dead: quick, agile things get tripped. Big things get hit with a Ref save from Stand Still.. Therefore you control who can and cannot move about the battlefield, to the advantage of your "team".

Valairn
2007-01-07, 02:20 PM
Sounds like a job for a cleric/(fighter class) type....?

And what book is Stand Still from?

TheOOB
2007-01-07, 02:23 PM
Spiked chains are good for battlefield control, but really any reach weapon will do. You can use a spiked gauntlet or the short haft feat(PHBII) to strike within 5' if your so inclined.

The most important feats for anyone battle field controller are improved trip, combat reflexes, and possibly stand still(XPH). Those all serve the important goal of making it difficult for your enemies to move up to your squishy mages and rogues.

Other then that any feat, item, or ability that hinders your opponents offensive or movement abilities works great for control, feats such as improved disarm, improved bull rush, and sometimes whirlwind attack(WA requires 2-3 feats that you probally won't end up using much so it's value is questionable) are great.

One key point about battlefield controlers, don't neglect your own defense and offense. Since your goal is to keep enemies near you and not your allies, you are going to be seeing a lot of attacks, so get that mithril full plate and get it enchanted. Also, the fighter should be one of the parties major sources of consistant damage, so don't ignore feats that improved your offensive abilities either. I personally find it a waste to make a straight 0-20 fighter without picking up weapon supremacy(PHBII).

Arbitrarity
2007-01-07, 02:24 PM
I say fighter. The bonus feats are needed for most abilities. You could do without, but it would be a pain, and only usable at higher levels.

EDIT: I consider whirlwind attack to be nice with 20 foot reach, because it can be combined with improved trip. Who doesn't want to see a legion of enemies around you all fall and get hit, at the same time. (But then you roll a 1...)

Valairn
2007-01-07, 02:38 PM
lol okay I see how this works now. What are some good ways to gishatize this build then to increase its effecitiveness?

Pegasos989
2007-01-07, 02:39 PM
The feat intensivity of the build is one thing fighter shines at. Going fighter or psywar or fighter/psywar you can stard doing this earlier than non-fighter builds...

In addition to the normal Combat reflexes+combat expertise+improved trip+(profiency: spiked chain. It is not absolutely necessary though)+stand still, I would say that you need stuff to improve your mobility. While wizards and balors teleport and fly around you at high levels, you need something to stay near them...


EDIT: and to gishatize... I would say that the spells improving mobility are a must, so dimension dooring, flying, etc. all as soon as you can. :P

Pegasos989
2007-01-07, 02:42 PM
EDIT: I consider whirlwind attack to be nice with 20 foot reach, because it can be combined with improved trip. Who doesn't want to see a legion of enemies around you all fall and get hit, at the same time. (But then you roll a 1...)


Though offtopic, I am commenting on this for the reason that somebody will do it at some point, anyways...

Whirlwind attack is concidered bad for the same reasons that great cleave:
It is useless if you have few enemies
If you have a lot of easy opponents, the fight might not be worth spending that amount of feats to
If you have a lot of hard opponents, you would be better running

Depends greatly on the style of DM and his encounters though

Valairn
2007-01-07, 02:44 PM
If someone is prone do they take sneak attack damage?

MrNexx
2007-01-07, 02:57 PM
I would say they do not take sneak attack damage when prone, unless they are otherwise helpless... being prone doesn't prevent you from defending yourself.

TheOOB
2007-01-07, 03:00 PM
You only take sneak attack damage if you are A) Denied your dex bonus to AC or B) Flanked. Being prone is not either of those, thus you do not take sneak attack damage.

It is fairly easy to flank a prone opponent though.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-07, 03:09 PM
Here's a sample build. Human fighter, prioritizing STR and CON then DEX then INT 13+ then WIS then CHA.

H: Combat Expertise
1: Combat Reflexes
Fighter 1: Imp. Trip
Fighter 2: Stand Still
3: Dodge
Fighter 4: Mobility
6: Elusive Target
Fighter 6: Karmic Strike
Fighter 8: Deft Opportunist
9: Power Attack

And so on.

Saph
2007-01-07, 03:14 PM
How important is Combat Reflexes in this build? I've liked the idea of a trip-fighter for a while, but I've never actually tried it out or seen one tried out, so I don't know how often you get to make multiple AoO's in practise.

- Saph

Valairn
2007-01-07, 03:15 PM
Thanks Bears, your lasers are always useful at pinpointing thread needs!

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-07, 03:16 PM
How important is Combat Reflexes in this build? I've liked the idea of a trip-fighter for a while, but I've never actually tried it out or seen one tried out, so I don't know how often you get to make multiple AoO's in practise.

- Saph

Combat Reflexes is absolutely vital, since such builds are largely AoO focused. When you add in Karmic Strike, there's no way to do without Combat Reflexes, since you want to be able to hit them every time they hit you.

If you add in the Sidestep feat from the Minis Handbook, you can even get hit, trip them, and 5' step away--who needs to get hit by full attacks anyway!

Behold_the_Void
2007-01-07, 03:24 PM
Whenever someone moves through your threatened range you make an AoO, so Combat Reflexes generally helps a lot.

Ikkitosen
2007-01-07, 04:09 PM
You're not much of a controller if you can only control one opponent per round, hence Combat Reflexes!

EWP: Spiked Chain may be desirable in many builds too btw.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-07, 04:14 PM
I'd say EWP: Spiked Chain is a wasted feat, since a guisarme plus armor spikes or spiked gauntlets does the same thing. Besides, how often are you unable to 5' step away?

Sabattus
2007-01-07, 04:14 PM
Well, the build that I did for a (nonhuman) spiked-chain specialist was as follows. Having an 18 STR is best, because the bonus-multiplier on two-handed weapons makes a substantial difference, particularly at the lower levels.

1: Exotic weap. (spiked chain)
Fighter 1: WF: spiked chain
Fighter 2: combat reflexes
3: power attack
Fighter 4: weapon spec. (spiked chain)

This build was basically an experiment in seeing how effective certain tactics would be. Power attack's in there because I was eyeing Leap Attack (from Complete Adventurer) and considering the stacking bonuses from a two-handed weapon charge.

Anyways, at one point I was confronted with a pack of a dozen or so ~12 hp warriors in a fairly narrow room -- say, 20' across? With Combat Reflexes and the length of the spiked chain, I was able to blanket the room, the warriors' door, and their "run if things go bad" corridor with a threatened area. I also effectively formed the primary barrier between the opposition and the party's more vulnerable members. (Four-person group, with fighter, cleric, rogue, and warlock.)

Positioned as I was, and swinging for 2d4+8 (10-16), I downed the vast majority of them within two rounds as they tried to position themselves or get away. Improved Trip was one of those things I was going to take eventually, but I had to up my Int to 13 at level 4 and so didn't have the chance.

TheOOB
2007-01-07, 04:14 PM
A note about Bear With Lasers build, if you are using PHBII is is advantageous to take Robilar's Gambit at level 12 and retrain Karmaic Strike into a different feat.

I'd personally try to work the weapon focus tree in there as well. Weapon Focus/Spec may not be great feats in and of themselves, but they do add up and they lead to weapon supremacy which is one of the best feats fighters can get.


I'd say EWP: Spiked Chain is a wasted feat, since a guisarme plus armor spikes or spiked gauntlets does the same thing. Besides, how often are you unable to 5' step away?

It's not entirely wasted if your going the weapon supremacy route, with a spiked chain you only need to rely on one weapon.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-07, 04:18 PM
I don't think the Weapon Focus tree is worth it, especially for a build that already requires many feats. Instead snag things like Endurance + Steadfast Determination.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-07, 04:18 PM
Might I also suggest taking swashbuckler instead of fighter? I just find them to be overall better, and if you take up the duelist prestige class for one level (it's all you really need) and make intelligence your major stat, you can be an insanely effective melee jerkwad.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-07, 04:20 PM
Might I also suggest taking swashbuckler instead of fighter? I just find them to be overall better, and if you take up the duelist prestige class for one level (it's all you really need) and make intelligence your major stat, you can be an insanely effective melee jerkwad.

You're kiddin', right? Swashbuckler sucks after third level; Duelist now adds your INT bonus to AC up to your duelist level, so one level gives you +1 AC (when not in armor, so it's a better deal to wear your armor), and swashbuckler does nothing battlefield-control-wise, being a Finesse-y guy who can't trip for crap.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-07, 04:23 PM
Huh. I seem to have missed that part of the Canny Defense explanation.

Well, hell. Then it just isn't nearly so good outside of a gestalt int buff build.

Ikkitosen
2007-01-07, 04:24 PM
I'd say EWP: Spiked Chain is a wasted feat, since a guisarme plus armor spikes or spiked gauntlets does the same thing. Besides, how often are you unable to 5' step away?

Since many characters of this type will use enlarge or similar to increase reach, the "blank area" your primary weapon doesn't cover will increase while your step size remains at 5' - daft, but them's the rules. So the odds of you having to use your armour spikes - with their lesser enchantment, certainly - becomes larger.

I personally prefer guisarme + spikes, but chains are more common I think.

TheOOB
2007-01-07, 04:35 PM
Anyways, heres my idea for a chain figher, take it or leave it

Racial : Exotic Weapon Proficieny<Spiked Chain>
Level 1 : Combat Reflexes
Fighter 1 : Stand Still(XPH)
Fighter 2 : Combat Expertise
Level 3 : Improved Trip
Fighter 4 : Dodge
Level 6 : Karmic Strike(CW)=Retrained to Mobility at level 12=
Fighter 6 : Weapon Focus<Spiked Chain>
Fighter 8 : Weapon Specilization<Spiked Chain>
Level 9 : Melee Weapon Mastery<Slashing>
Fighter 10 : Power Attack
Level 12 : Robilar's Gambit(PHBII)
Fighter 12 : Elusive Target(CW)
Fighter 14 : Improved Bull Rush
Level 15 : Improved Disarm
Fighter 16 : Greater Weapon Focus<Spiked Chain>
Level 18 : Greater Weapon Specilization<Spiked Chain>
Fighter 18 : Weapon Supremacy<Spiked Chain>
Fighter 20 : Deft Oppertunist(CAdv)

Pegasos989
2007-01-07, 05:20 PM
I'd say EWP: Spiked Chain is a wasted feat, since a guisarme plus armor spikes or spiked gauntlets does the same thing. Besides, how often are you unable to 5' step away?

Wellm there are some reasons.
-Enlarged, you would need 10ft. step
-If you can get nice enchantments (not about +x but some nice special quality) for one weapon, spiked chain is better than two weapons
-Though not as important to the tripper build (especially dex based one), it is exotic weapon and you can thus dip to EWMaster PrC and get double str bonus (instead of 1.5x) to damage

And propably some other reasons. I would say that spiked chain is not all that wasted feat. :/

Ikkitosen
2007-01-07, 05:44 PM
Wellm there are some reasons.
-Enlarged, you would need 10ft. step
-If you can get nice enchantments (not about +x but some nice special quality) for one weapon, spiked chain is better than two weapons
-Though not as important to the tripper build (especially dex based one), it is exotic weapon and you can thus dip to EWMaster PrC and get double str bonus (instead of 1.5x) to damage

And propably some other reasons. I would say that spiked chain is not all that wasted feat. :/

The EWM is extra important to get the ability to take AoO against opponents with cover. Otherwise one guy next to you allows all his mates to run past behind him.

The_Snark
2007-01-07, 05:48 PM
Grab Combat Reflexes, Deft Opportunist, Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike, then at 16th level, exchange the bonus feat for Overwhelming Attack (PHBII). Make your trip/attack. Then deal double damage each time they get up and each time anybody attacks you.

Mixing with guisarme tripping builds and such works fairly well too. The only drawback is that you don't get iterative attacks while using Overwhelming Attack, and it only works well when the enemy is attacking you.

jlousivy
2007-01-08, 12:19 AM
question: several times someone has said 'exchange' how do you exchange feats?

TheOOB
2007-01-08, 12:24 AM
In the Player's Handbook II there is options on retraining your character. One of the things you can do is each level trade up to one feat with another feat that you met the prerequisites when you got the original.

icedrake
2007-01-08, 01:10 AM
Consider the knight from PHBII, his ability to force people to attack him serves as an AoE taunt similar to MMO characters, not only that, all terrian around him is considered rough terrian for movement.

The Crusader's a beast for tanking, not only can he heal himself and allies when attacking people, he can delay the damage he takes, get bonuses to attack and damage, he also has the ability to get AoO off 5 ft steps. Crusader/knights would make excellent tanks and battlefield controllers, especially with some Devoted Spirit and White Raven manuevers.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-01-08, 05:48 AM
Consider the knight from PHBII, his ability to force people to attack him serves as an AoE taunt similar to MMO characters, not only that, all terrian around him is considered rough terrian for movement.

The Crusader's a beast for tanking, not only can he heal himself and allies when attacking people, he can delay the damage he takes, get bonuses to attack and damage, he also has the ability to get AoO off 5 ft steps. Crusader/knights would make excellent tanks and battlefield controllers, especially with some Devoted Spirit and White Raven manuevers.

My group had a knight PC once. It seemed pretty effective while the campaign lasted, but we didn't have enough playing time for me to make any real conclusions. The DM was constantly complaining about some of the knight's abilities, though :smallconfused:.

goken04
2007-01-08, 07:23 AM
Also beautiful for this build is the whip(-dagger, if your DM'll allow it, and I don't see why most wouldn't)! Why? The whip triples, not doubles, your reach. So a potion of enlarge (or take the equivalent power with your PsyWar levels), will grant you a 30' reach. Hooray for multiples!

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-08, 07:24 AM
Except that you can't make Attacks of Opportunity with whips, making them useless for this person.

goken04
2007-01-08, 07:29 AM
What? No, seriously?

We just transferred over to 3.5 from 3.0 a few months ago. I haven't seen anyone use a whip yet. What? How do you not get AoO with WHIPS?

Then take a level of Pyrokineticist? The Fire Lash threatens, don't it?

Pegasos989
2007-01-08, 07:42 AM
What? No, seriously?

We just transferred over to 3.5 from 3.0 a few months ago. I haven't seen anyone use a whip yet. What? How do you not get AoO with WHIPS?

Then take a level of Pyrokineticist? The Fire Lash threatens, don't it?


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#whip

goken04
2007-01-08, 07:48 AM
That's... retarded. Does it not provoke because it isn't considered enough of a threat to the opponent?

If that's the case, one could make the case that the whip-dagger, which actually DOES lethal damage, would threaten. And then you're set.

If not, why the crap does the whip not threaten? I always figured that provoking was not because the weapon was CURRENTLY in the way of you moving through the space, but because there was the potential that the enemy could PUT it in your way at any given moment. And in that case, why does the whip not qualify?

Anyways, PsyWar 3/Fighter 2/PK 1 will still give you more bang for your buck. Expand!

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-08, 07:56 AM
It doesn't threaten because it's treated like a ranged weapon and ranged weapons don't threaten.

Realistically, it's because by the time you've wound up the whip to crack it, the opportunity is gone.