An Allegory

[Red Fel]

Alright, I'm working on a build and I could use your help.

It's a roughly Tier 3 game, my party is a Green Salad Ceasar 4/ House 7/ Crouton 1, a Tuna Seared Ahi 5/ Sushi 7, a Beef Sirloin 12, and my character, a multiclass Poultry build. I was planning on going with a caster build, Grilled 7/ Biscuits 2/ Rice 3, but I've been considering switching out Grilled casting for Fried casting (with the Cornflake Breadcrumbs variant). I've taken the Multibiscuit feat, which increases my Biscuits/day but decreases their size, and Onions in the Breading, because I have a fondness for flavor feats. I'm still trying to figure out what I can do to fill out this build, without outperforming the rest of the party.

The DM has banned Pork classes and Stormwrack (the Tuna is the DM's GF, so she's exempt), along with any Dessert PrCs.

Suggestions?

[lytokk]

did you miss a meal or something? Cause now I'm hungry. and you made my head hurt.

[Berenger]

Just stay away from strawberry ice cream.

[Red Fel]

Just stay away from strawberry ice cream.

Like I said, the DM has banned Dessert PrCs.

Out of curiosity, though, why do so many people hate that class? I get that it came out of one of the splatbooks, but still, Strawberry has some good abilities, and qualifies you for Neapolitan.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Red Fel
...and Onions in the Breading, because I have a fondness for flavor feats.

Ba-Doom-Boom. And ouch.



Otherwise...not sure if I grok what this is supposed to be. "Allegory" and the famed blue text are creating some oscillating asynchronies in my mind.

When I think "allegory" I think early medieval literature. Maybe this is a case where being an English major doesn't improve one's comprehension.

[PaucaTerrorem]

Honestly a 2 level dip into Pan Fried Ribeye with the Pan Gravy variant would round out the party. Or you could take the Escoffier PrC to get the Escoffier modified casting.

[Palanan]

Gorrammit, now I want cookies 'n' cream.



And Buffalo wings. Probably not in that order.

[Seclora]

Switching Grilled casting for Fried Casting is an excellent decision, definitely do so. And flavor wise, it works better with Onions in the Breading.
I personally try to avoid anything that makes my biscuits smaller, but there's no denying the increased versatility of more biscuits per day.
Since you're trying to avoid outperforming the party, try the Gravy feat chain. It's not nearly as good as the Cheese feats, but it has decent synergy with some of your Beef Sirloin's class features and should help your character meld well into the rest of the party.

[Traab]

Just so long as you avoid the panko breading of the fried casting, remember, this is tier 3, you dont want to overpower the rest of the group. I have found though, that going for a 3 dip in cajun seasoning helps to bridge the gaps in a group of that configuration, and brings it all together.

[Red Fel]

Honestly a 2 level dip into Pan Fried Ribeye with the Pan Gravy variant would round out the party. Or you could take the Escoffier PrC to get the Escoffier modified casting.


Switching Grilled casting for Fried Casting is an excellent decision, definitely do so. And flavor wise, it works better with Onions in the Breading.
I personally try to avoid anything that makes my biscuits smaller, but there's no denying the increased versatility of more biscuits per day.
Since you're trying to avoid outperforming the party, try the Gravy feat chain. It's not nearly as good as the Cheese feats, but it has decent synergy with some of your Beef Sirloin's class features and should help your character meld well into the rest of the party.

I've been hearing good things about Gravy feats and variants. That's from Sauces and Sorcery, right? I don't have the books in front of me, but don't those have a Garlic prereq?

[Slipperychicken]

It's so sad to see GM's ban Pork. It's not even that strong; just versatile (like I just made a An Egg6/Ham3/Cheese1/Omelette10 and it worked out pretty well). As long as you don't go into some kind of weird Corn Dogs shenanigans (like getting Bun Substitution (Pancake) to dodge metataste penalties for taking Rapid Syrup as a Pork), you should be fine. Most of the time, Pork is just a slightly dry stand-in for when your Beef/Filet Mignon/etc isn't available. I mean, I understand if he's trying to run a Kosher game, but still.

As for desserts... I wouldn't be surprised if someone pulled out a Fried Oreo build on him early in his career. It can be hard to re-allow desserts after seeing overpowered BS like that.



Otherwise...not sure if I grok what this is supposed to be. "Allegory" and the famed blue text are creating some oscillating asynchronies in my mind.

When I think "allegory" I think early medieval literature. Maybe this is a case where being an English major doesn't improve one's comprehension.

Isn't allegory basically an extended metaphor? Like Animal Farm being an allegory for revolution?

[Kazyan]

I've been hearing good things about Gravy feats and variants. That's from Sauces and Sorcery, right? I don't have the books in front of me, but don't those have a Garlic prereq?

Look at the Garlic cookbook sometime. You'll lose out on some Gravy feats that you probably won't want for this build anyway, but there are several easy ways to qualify as having Garlic without actually adding any.

[PaucaTerrorem]

It's the Garlic Powder ability you get from the Paragon Levels. It's not as awesome as the Roasted Garlic Feat, but it gets it done in a "pinch".

[Spore]

Grilled 7? Are you insane? Everyone knows steak-based builds only flourish with the medium-rare feat chain.

[Cog]

Look at the Garlic cookbook sometime. You'll lose out on some Gravy feats that you probably won't want for this build anyway, but there are several easy ways to qualify as having Garlic without actually adding any.

Garlic is such a traditional, flavorful component. Sure, those workarounds are RAW, but do you really think the chefs intended to let you skip Garlic outright?

[PaucaTerrorem]

Shouldn't. That's why it kills me when my chef buys it in. Keep telling him we should keep using real garlic for everything. This is why I need to get these resumes out today.

[Red Fel]

It's so sad to see GM's ban Pork. It's not even that strong; just versatile (like I just made a An Egg6/Ham3/Cheese1/Omelette10 and it worked out pretty well). As long as you don't go into some kind of weird Corn Dogs shenanigans (like getting Bun Substitution (Pancake) to dodge metataste penalties for taking Rapid Syrup as a Pork), you should be fine. Most of the time, Pork is just a slightly dry stand-in for when your Beef/Filet Mignon/etc isn't available. I mean, I understand if he's trying to run a Kosher game, but still.

As for desserts... I wouldn't be surprised if someone pulled out a Fried Oreo build on him early in his career. It can be hard to re-allow desserts after seeing overpowered BS like that.

He is running a Kosher game, actually. Although I still can't figure out why he banned all of Stormwrack, instead of just the Crabs & Crustaceans chapter.

And I keep hearing that Omelette is OP. I mean, getting Meat and Veggie casting, full progression, is pretty potent, but I figure it's just another theurge class, like Chop Suey, right?


Look at the Garlic cookbook sometime. You'll lose out on some Gravy feats that you probably won't want for this build anyway, but there are several easy ways to qualify as having Garlic without actually adding any.

Actually, I was thinking of taking Onion and Garlic, which would let me use Onions in the Breading to satisfy Garlic prereqs. Unless you think there's an advantage to taking Garlic feats directly?


It's the Garlic Powder ability you get from the Paragon Levels. It's not as awesome as the Roasted Garlic Feat, but it gets it done in a "pinch".

I don't know, I think our Sirloin was thinking of taking Garlic Powder. I figure, why duplicate the same result, you know? Besides, he's using a Spice Rub build, I figure he'll benefit more from it.

But Roasted Garlic... I hadn't thought about it, but that's a pretty good feat for a Fried/Rice build. That's a good point.

[Joe the Rat]

No, you really want Fried over Garlic. A Fried dip works well with just about everything. Garlic is good, especially a Garlic/Butter mix, but there are some things that should never be dipped in Garlic/Butter.

If you do want to go Gravy, check out some of the other PrCs and feats that build off that Broth prereq. They can be pure Bullion.

[Kazyan]

Garlic is such a traditional, flavorful component. Sure, those workarounds are RAW, but do you really think the chefs intended to let you skip Garlic outright?

No, but page 8 of Complete Substitutes says, in no uncertain terms, that you're supposed to get creative with substitutes. They only do wonky things with the Recipe As Intended if you use a bunch of them in the same build or get waaaay out there. YMMV on what the latter actually means to you; even I don't agree with some of the tricks. But it looks like OP will be going for Garlic anyway. (I don't want to derail this with a RAW/RAI debate.)

[Joe the Rat]

No, but page 8 of Complete Substitutes says, in no uncertain terms, that you're supposed to get creative with substitutes. They only do wonky things with the Recipe As Intended if you use a bunch of them in the same build or get waaaay out there. YMMV on what the latter actually means to you; even I don't agree with some of the tricks. But it looks like OP will be going for Garlic anyway. (I don't want to derail this with a RAW/RAI debate.)
Yeah, people are quite serious about the issues with RAW Chicken.

[Slipperychicken]

And I keep hearing that Omelette is OP. I mean, getting Meat and Veggie casting, full progression, is pretty potent, but I figure it's just another theurge class, like Chop Suey, right?


Surprisingly, I didn't take Veggie in that one (just using Omelette to progress meat), which I should have mentioned before since it's normally such a no-brainer. It was a low-op meal (there was a Corn Flakes/Raisins cereal involved), so I had to tone it down to allow everyone else time to shine.

[Lord Haart]

Would you like green eggs and ham?

[Deox]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Baked 5 then entering Twice Baked and picking up the Potato line to progress Baked and potato. It's originally 3.0, but hasn't been updated. Fowls and Pheasants, IIRC.

[Telonius]

Just avoid the Open-Faced prestige class. It's really a trap option, nothing good ever came of it. (Please, leave partially-charged hot peppers out of the discussion).

[GolemsVoice]

Your setting (and likely the people you play with) is anti-vegetarianist. You should open a thread about making a non-anti-vegetarianist setting.

[Zweisteine]

Would you like green eggs and ham?

No, no, no. From the sound of the DM, third party books, especially parodies like that one, wouldn't be allowed.

Not to mention that ham is pork, which is explicitly banned.

[Chronos]

Quoth Telonius:

Just avoid the Open-Faced prestige class. It's really a trap option, nothing good ever came of it. (Please, leave partially-charged hot peppers out of the discussion).
Everyone always says that, but I don't think they realize the true potential. Folks always assume that the one level of bread has to be on the bottom, but it's not actually required, and you can get some great options by taking it on the top, instead.

[GoblinArchmage]

He is running a Kosher game, actually. Although I still can't figure out why he banned all of Stormwrack, instead of just the Crabs & Crustaceans chapter.

It doesn't look like he is being that strict about the Kosher rules, though. I mean, he is allowing a Beef Sirloin and a Green Salad Ceasar in the same meal. Are you just not allowed to break Kosher rules within a single dish, because RAW states that it's supposed to be the whole meal.

And by banning all of Stormwrack, he is leaving out a lot of Kosher options, like the Lox PrC. People say that it is closer to Tier One or Two, but that's only if you combine it with the Bagel feats.

I'm also surprised that nobody has gone the Kugel route, but then again, that is pretty obviously Tier One.

[Shred-Bot]

This is the greatest thread of all time.

Definitely switch from Grilled to Fried... Grilled is only worth it if you're going with a Vow of Low Carb build, and that tends to be underpowered, as sugars and starches will always form a significant portion of your Taste by Level.

(Unless of course you'll be using Chaos Souffle on those weak Healthy Feats... but I guess that level of cheese will get a Joy of Cooking lobbed at your head.)

[GolemsVoice]

I'd also suggest looking for a non-fat build with early entry in Master of Vegetables. Vegetarian feats might look underpowered, but if your DM allows a liberal reading of the MoV rules, you can use any dish that was cooked in vegetable oil for the purpose of Vegetarian feats.

[ddude987]

Don't forget to take the feats "cool beans" and "hot rice"

[erikun]

I suggest a dip of barbecue sauce, and see if you can get a companion of potatoes/broccoli and cheese to go alongside it. Actually, poultry is really nice because you can add a lot to it any make it work. Don't be afraid to combine it with some fruit, like chicken/orange or possibly turkey/apple, if you want to experiment a bit with something you're bringing to the table.

My hobby: Making a discussion about one thing that can appear to be about another.

[Captnq]

Well, I happen to have a complete list of the starting meat-based Classes HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4_G7HHJ0GE).
And since you want to compare, I have a handbook of all the seasonings HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMsfvr4wevU).
However, since you need spatulas, you might want to go HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XbCWmY0eqY).

[ben-zayb]

Just avoid the Open-Faced prestige class. It's really a trap option, nothing good ever came of it. (Please, leave partially-charged hot peppers out of the discussion).
Sheesh. I don't get why a lot of people are getting their buns all heated up just because someone wants to roll with Open-Faced. It's fine as is for a Tier 3 build! :smallfurious:

I'd also suggest looking for a non-fat build with early entry in Master of Vegetables. Vegetarian feats might look underpowered, but if your DM allows a liberal reading of the MoV rules, you can use any dish that was cooked in vegetable oil for the purpose of Vegetarian feats.

Recipe as Written, either one of those early entry tricks to Master of Vegetables don't work.
1. Being able to make two specific types of vegetable salad isn't the same as being able to make any two vegetable salads in general.
2. Being able to steam a vegetable dish in half the time doesn't necessarily mean you can steam two vegetable dishes in the normal cooking time for one dish. And you can only do that when you're inside your special kitchen in the first place, anyway. That's a houserule, and nothing more.

I hate it when people cooks like that. :smallfrown:

[Zweisteine]

Sheesh. I don't get why a lot of people are getting their buns all heated up just because someone wants to roll with Open-Faced. It's fine as is for a Tier 3 build! :smallfurious:

Actually, the official Tier System (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16357524&postcount=1519) states that it is quite solidly Tier 4.

[nedz]

I think your missing out on a familiar entrée.

I recommend escargot which comes with both garlic and butter as bonus feats. I know that technically they only have one feet, chalk it up to a recipe dysfunction.

This will break your DM's kosher houserules though, but he did only say no pork so you're well within the Recipe as Written.

[Khatoblepas]

Sheesh. I don't get why a lot of people are getting their buns all heated up just because someone wants to roll with Open-Faced. It's fine as is for a Tier 3 build! :smallfurious:

Open Faced is one of the worst classes I've ever seen. It's 10 levels to let you do less than a standard sandwich can do normally. If you want the open faced flavor, just use the standard sandwich classes and hold off on one of the bread options. You'll have better flavor and an extra slice of bread!

Anyway, you can probably get around the Pork banning if you use the Exotic Alternatives meat features in Complete Kosher. I'd say taking Wild Goose Taste as it's almost exactly like pork, if a little fattier altogether (You can make up for this with slow frying (Tastes of the South, pg. 96) ).

Oh, and don't forget, you can cut down on the cost of your meal if you remember that the Salad Bar and Bread options are free. This means you can make the majority of your Taste Experience out of freely offered Appetisers. RAW, you could probably make a functionally infinitely large sized meal out of it, given enough time. You'd have to use Artificial Preservatives to keep the earlier stuff fresh, but hey, we aren't going for elegance here.

[Zweisteine]

Open Faced is one of the worst classes I've ever seen. It's 10 levels to let you do less than a standard sandwich can do normally. If you want the open faced flavor, just use the standard sandwich classes and hold off on one of the bread options. You'll have better flavor and an extra slice of bread!

Anyway, you can probably get around the Pork banning if you use the Exotic Alternatives meat features in Complete Kosher.

In its defense, Open-Faced does avoid some of the ingredient restrictions of the standard Sandwich, which can be useful in low-resource campaigns.

Did they print the Complete Kosher in English outside of the Holy Rules Compendium? The Compendium never mentioned the Exotic Alternatives. This intrigues me...

[satorian]

If you're going Kosher, ask your DM if you can use the Halal variant from Al Qadim. With that, you can use the Lamb casting rules, which, when you take the Mint Tea ACF, combines for some great flavor, though the crunch is still lacking. To get around that, you'll need the Tabbouleh feat.

The only problem with this build is that both Kosher and Halal rules restrict you from getting the Yogurt feat on the same build. There is a 3rd party Safardim template that allows Yogurt with Chicken and Fish casting, so that might be worth asking.

[FireInTheSky]

It's the Garlic Powder ability you get from the Paragon Tarragon Levels. It's not as awesome as the Roasted Garlic Feat, but it gets it done in a "pinch".

Fixed that for you.

[Telonius]

I really wish they'd had more support for the Seven Spices setting. Sebah Baharat was always a favorite of mine. The flavor text was second to none, and it really had some good substance to it, as well. Not many cheesy combinations, either. Too bad we just got the one book.

Some of the Eastern settings were great too. General Tao was such a great villain. And the options for a daikon theme were particularly interesting. Biggest problem was all the extra splatbook and third-party material that came out, with everybody taking bits and pieces of the original and making it into some unrecognizable mush.

[GolemsVoice]

Recipe as Written, either one of those early entry tricks to Master of Vegetables don't work.
1. Being able to make two specific types of vegetable salad isn't the same as being able to make any two vegetable salads in general.
2. Being able to steam a vegetable dish in half the time doesn't necessarily mean you can steam two vegetable dishes in the normal cooking time for one dish. And you can only do that when you're inside your special kitchen in the first place, anyway. That's a houserule, and nothing more.

Buy Eberhardt's magnificient kitchen, so that you always count as being in your special kitchen AND get a +2 masterwork bonus on all of your steaming rolls. With an amulet of the Steammaster, you can easily get the bonus so high you really only fail on a 1.

Also, the entry says "must be able to make two vegetable salads", there's nothing about being able to make ANY two vegetable salads.

EDIT: also, there's nothing that says a Ceasar's Salad HAS to have chicken in it, it just says "usually contains chicken". That means that it counts as a vegetable salad for the purpose of the class, too.

EDIT:
I really wish they'd had more support for the Seven Spices setting. Sebah Baharat was always a favorite of mine. The flavor text was second to none, and it really had some good substance to it, as well. Not many cheesy combinations, either. Too bad we just got the one book.

Yeah, no, that was the most horrible anime nonsense I've ever seen. It was made to cater to basement-dwelling nerds eating ramen and sushi and slicing their meat with katanas. Look at the artwork! I just can't take it seriously, and I'm glad they never released anything else for it.

[nedz]

Have you considered the usual Heightened Spices and Versatile Ingredients shenanigans. These can make for some flavourful early entrée tricks.

Also, if you were to consider a more oriental feel, you could go for the Ancestral Wok feat. This is great, you just throw in any old odd ingredients, which you were about to discard, and it makes a terrific dish.

[Telonius]

Buy Eberhardt's magnificient kitchen, so that you always count as being in your special kitchen AND get a +2 masterwork bonus on all of your steaming rolls. With an amulet of the Steammaster, you can easily get the bonus so high you really only fail on a 1.

Also, the entry says "must be able to make two vegetable salads", there's nothing about being able to make ANY two vegetable salads.

EDIT: also, there's nothing that says a Ceasar's Salad HAS to have chicken in it, it just says "usually contains chicken". That means that it counts as a vegetable salad for the purpose of the class, too.

EDIT:

Yeah, no, that was the most horrible anime nonsense I've ever seen. It was made to cater to basement-dwelling nerds eating ramen and sushi and slicing their meat with katanas. Look at the artwork! I just can't take it seriously, and I'm glad they never released anything else for it.

Oh, come on, the Ginsu class is just as good as well-balanced as anything else. Just make sure to use the original, the Complete Cutlery version is rubbish.

[Red Fel]

Oh, come on, the Ginsu class is just as good as well-balanced as anything else. Just make sure to use the original, the Complete Cutlery version is rubbish.

Gonna have to disagree. Seven Spices, like Freezerburn and Sandwich, was just an attempt at taking the existing game mechanics and putting them in a different, flavorful atmosphere. It's not like Book of Nine Meats or Tome of Masala, which introduced entirely new seasoning mechanics.

Ginsu is just a reflavored Cleaver, with bonus Tomato proficiency.

[rexreg]

Maybe, I'm being a little nit-picky, here, but...
Why is no one taking advantage of The Complete Book of Alcohol?
Any sauteed-class character can benefit greatly from a small splash of sherry.
Or maybe adding beer to the batter you use on your deep-fried fish?

Are you allowed to use Magic Brownies? I know many DM's interpret this as being strictly against RAW, but maybe that can open up some possibilities, as well.

[GolemsVoice]

I don't really understand why we need to introduce anime food mechanics into the predominantly European context of the game. Before that we had beef wellington, salads and black pudding, and suddenly ginsu? It just clashes with the flavour of the game, and the additional mechanics, especially the whole Sushi-based classes don't mesh well with mostly COOKING based classes and feats.

[Mono Vertigo]

I've seen some manage to mix Sushi-based classes and European elements oddly well, though the result is almost always something that merely looks like a Sushi, but uses the mechanics of, say, Cheese or Fruit Dessert to replicate the feel, though not always the taste, of a Sushi.
Anyway, while you may argue this should not be considered a Sushi, I still feel more credit must be given to mixing the two together. When it's tastefully-done, the result is just as surprising as it is great. Especially when homebrew is involved.

... then again, I did meet another homebrewer who came up with a Vegetable Crumble. It went along with nothing else in the party, and it was so terrible at what it was trying to do. You need skill to homebrew.

[Phelix-Mu]

Don't forget the possibilities inherent in the fish gish dish, with a side of wish. Some accuse me of smoking hashish, but I find the combo delish.

Or the brace of fish paste lace, seasoned with mace, so good you'll stuff your face. Best used with haste, to play post...well, I think you get the idea.

(I could do this all day, but will mercifully stop here.)

Actually, there's all too much cleverness in this thread. We need more callous polemics and meaningless puppetting of tired arguments, or we may be found in blatant violation the internet.

[nedz]

I don't really understand why we need to introduce anime food mechanics into the predominantly European context of the game. Before that we had beef wellington, salads and black pudding, and suddenly ginsu? It just clashes with the flavour of the game, and the additional mechanics, especially the whole Sushi-based classes don't mesh well with mostly COOKING based classes and feats.

Because we are not playing with a single setting, we have the whole Kitchen Sink going on here. Anything goes, well as long as it's kosher apparently — though the OP's DM seems to think that this just means no pork :smallsigh:

[Red Fel]

Because we are not playing with a single setting, we have the whole Kitchen Sink going on here. Anything goes, well as long as it's kosher apparently — though the OP's DM seems to think that this just means no pork :smallsigh:

And Stormwrack! No Stormwrack!

And yes, in response to an earlier question, it's Kosher-in-dish, not Kosher-in-party, so we can have our Caesar and Sirloin at the same table. It's also why I went with Rice instead of with Grits. Frankly, I think Grits are just ripe for cheese anyway.

[nedz]

And Stormwrack! No Stormwrack!

And yes, in response to an earlier question, it's Kosher-in-dish, not Kosher-in-party, so we can have our Caesar and Sirloin at the same table. It's also why I went with Rice instead of with Grits. Frankly, I think Grits are just ripe for cheese anyway.

What a terrible DM. You should just quit and find a new one. No meal is better than a bad one. How is Stormwrack non Kosher anyway ?

[Lucid]

Seconding the Barbecue Sauce dip, out of all the sauce classes it goes really well with fried casting. It also qualifies you for the Whiskey Flavour feat(from the aforementioned Complete Book of Alcohol), which adds a tasteful option but is not too overpowering imo.
And why take Rice 3? I thought everybody knew Rice works better in even amounts?:smallconfused:

Frankly, I'd be worried about the GM's girlfriend being the only one getting access to Stormwrack, who's to say she won't be getting other free extras? Something smells fishy here.

My timers running out right now, but if you'd like I can see if I can cook up a build later.

[Kane0]

The only thing I can really say is you should try to max out your Carbs and keep your sugars and fats to a minimum. Strive for a good amount of protein, but don't overdo it.

Other than that, don't put all your eggs in one basket, try to throw around as many ingredients as you can without losing sight of the main course.

[Red Fel]

What a terrible DM. You should just quit and find a new one. No meal is better than a bad one. How is Stormwrack non Kosher anyway ?

Too many Crustacean PrCs.

Apparently he had a bad experience with a Crab Rangoon, a Lobsterer, and a Fiend of Shellfishness back when he was a player in someone else's campaign, so now he banned the whole book.

I don't see what the problem is. He should have known Kelp was an underpowered class and that he'd be outperformed. Even the Shrimp Knight Tempura made him look bad. I mean, Knight Tempura! That's a Tier 5, easy!

[kardar233]

There's also that dish based on the PrC that's about vomiting, from Vinum and Venality. That used some Stormwrack stuff, I recall.

Baby Shrimp, was the dish.

[ben-zayb]

I don't really understand why we need to introduce anime food mechanics into the predominantly European context of the game. Before that we had beef wellington, salads and black pudding, and suddenly ginsu? It just clashes with the flavour of the game, and the additional mechanics, especially the whole Sushi-based classes don't mesh well with mostly COOKING based classes and feats.

I have a feeling that you will not like the Oriental Cuisine splatbook as well as the entire Ricefields setting. Unfortunately, that's the case when you introduce and (miserably) write the easily abused Sushi-Rolling skill (that combos well with the Ancient Sushi-Rolling Mat item).

I admit that the setting has its up sides. The Deep-Fry system classes (like the Tempura) is perfect for those who prefer flavor but still want an easy to learn mechanics. Noodle(crafting) is a very difficult system to master, but is easy to learn. Not to mention it is the proto-class of the European-themed Pasta classes. (and with less cheese too in comparison)

EDIT: Dang, now I just want to play KoL again.

On another topic, what about the Book of Questionable Herbs and Brews? It was never updated to the latest edition, but... you know. It's pretty popular... and kind of polarizing. :smalltongue:

[nedz]

Too many Crustacean PrCs.

Apparently he had a bad experience with a Crab Rangoon, a Lobsterer, and a Fiend of Shellfishness back when he was a player in someone else's campaign, so now he banned the whole book.

I don't see what the problem is. He should have known Kelp was an underpowered class and that he'd be outperformed. Even the Shrimp Knight Tempura made him look bad. I mean, Knight Tempura! That's a Tier 5, easy!

Maybe he just had a bad experience with Crab ?

Have you considered the Southern Chef feat ?
They can use non-kosher as if it were kosher.
Admittedly every thing they cook tastes of chicken, but it is well spiced.
Try hitting your DM with the line "If it looks like chicken, and tastes like chicken, then it probably is chicken".

[Sith_Happens]

What a terrible DM. You should just quit and find a new one. No meal is better than a bad one. How is Stormwrack non Kosher anyway ?

It could be worse, he could be trying to run a Passover setting. With the Kitniyot variant. *shudders*

[Red Fel]

It could be worse, he could be trying to run a Passover setting. With the Kitniyot variant. *shudders*

We did a Passover one-shot a few months ago. An entire crypt populated by Unleavened, ruled by a Demilatke. Our Seared Ahi/Sushi was understandably underpowered. Not being able to Seaweed Attack and all. Apparently she made that the focus of her build.

We haven't had to face Unleavened since.

[Socratov]

You could go with a dessert build, options here are to use frozen yoghurt as a base and then enter into the chocolate chip prestige. This circumvents the no pork rule and thus not needing gelatin (yoghurt 5/ice cream 3/chocolate 3/ice cream 7/ yoghurt2) . This will enable to use frozen casting of your chocolate spells without using pork ingredients and strongly increase your dish character's potential. If you encounter lots of fire focused enemies you can pick up the liquid nitrogen prc (jsut sacrifice the last levels of yoghurt and 3 ice cream levels) allowing you to have your frozen casting spells affect the enemy.

On the ohte rhand you go for the emmenthaler baseclass with prestige gryuere and prestige gorgonzola. This will allow you to build the dreaded blue fondue (emmenthaler 10/Gruyere 5/Gorgonzola 5), but it might be too cheesy for your DM

[dysprosium]

You could go with a dessert build, options here are to use frozen yoghurt as a base and then enter into the chocolate chip prestige. This circumvents the no pork rule and thus not needing gelatin (yoghurt 5/ice cream 3/chocolate 3/ice cream 7/ yoghurt2) . This will enable to use frozen casting of your chocolate spells without using pork ingredients and strongly increase your dish character's potential. If you encounter lots of fire focused enemies you can pick up the liquid nitrogen prc (jsut sacrifice the last levels of yoghurt and 3 ice cream levels) allowing you to have your frozen casting spells affect the enemy.

On the ohte rhand you go for the emmenthaler baseclass with prestige gryuere and prestige gorgonzola. This will allow you to build the dreaded blue fondue (emmenthaler 10/Gruyere 5/Gorgonzola 5), but it might be too cheesy for your DM

Are you seriously putting a dessert based build in blue sarcasm text?

I once got an old DM of mine to actually play a Cookie Monster! He waived the RHD and everything.

[Red Fel]

Are you seriously putting a dessert based build in blue sarcasm text?

I once got an old DM of mine to actually play a Cookie Monster! He waived the RHD and everything.

The prereqs to Cookie Monster are ludicrous. I mean, there's the alignment prereq, plus the racial prereq (Pastry Beast), plus the class prereq (Cookie Miser), plus not one, but two feats (Conspicuous Consumption and Om Nom Nom)?

I get that it's a powerful class, but it seems as if they never actually wanted PCs to take it.

[nedz]

The prereqs to Cookie Monster are ludicrous. I mean, there's the alignment prereq, plus the racial prereq (Pastry Beast), plus the class prereq (Cookie Miser), plus not one, but two feats (Conspicuous Consumption and Om Nom Nom)?

I get that it's a powerful class, but it seems as if they never actually wanted PCs to take it.

I think he means the Cookie Monster race, not the PrC.
Now I know it's Icecream material so you might have discounted it.

[Vinyl Scratch]

Now I wish there was a 3.5 rehash called Cold Cuts & Casseroles...

[dysprosium]

The prereqs to Cookie Monster are ludicrous. I mean, there's the alignment prereq, plus the racial prereq (Pastry Beast), plus the class prereq (Cookie Miser), plus not one, but two feats (Conspicuous Consumption and Om Nom Nom)?

I get that it's a powerful class, but it seems as if they never actually wanted PCs to take it.


I think he means the Cookie Monster race, not the PrC.
Now I know it's Icecream material so you might have discounted it.

It's true. I did mean the race not the class. I mean my DM wasn't completely nuts! (But it doesn't mean I didn't ask!)

And I know Ice Cream material is categorized as poorly designed but the flavor is just hard to beat. I will always suggest Ice Cream material when I can.

[Red Fel]

I think he means the Cookie Monster race, not the PrC.
Now I know it's Icecream material so you might have discounted it.

*rereads*

Oh, duh. My bad. See, this is what I mean about the writers being inconsistent - there's the race, there's the PrC.

It's like when they made the Book of Exciting Desserts both an in-game item and an actual book. Too much confusion.

[Asheram]

Don't forget Mise-en-place in order to qualify for Marinade, it makes Grilled go through the roof.

[nedz]

*rereads*

Oh, duh. My bad. See, this is what I mean about the writers being inconsistent - there's the race, there's the PrC.

It's like when they made the Book of Exciting Desserts both an in-game item and an actual book. Too much confusion.

Yeah, it's like when they made Caramel both a class feature and a spell — and for the same class too. Also the race and class Béchamel. :smallconfused:

[Telonius]

I'm still trying to figure out the best class for my Gastro-gnome. There's that one Veggiecraft Chef build that makes a Vegan version of everything that ends up better than the original, but that seems like a little much for my level of optimization. (We're more of a meat-and-potatoes party anyway). I've gotten a few suggestions from some friends of mine about the Book of Culinary Fantasy - I know, I know; but the group has pretty mature tastes - but I'm not sure where I'd go after that.

[Socratov]

Are you seriously putting a dessert based build in blue sarcasm text?

I once got an old DM of mine to actually play a Cookie Monster! He waived the RHD and everything.
Well, to be honest, the Op is trying to play in a main course meal, so suggesting a desert build was actually like suggesting a planar shepherd druid in a game of monks

I'm still trying to figure out the best class for my Gastro-gnome. There's that one Veggiecraft Chef build that makes a Vegan version of everything that ends up better than the original, but that seems like a little much for my level of optimization. (We're more of a meat-and-potatoes party anyway). I've gotten a few suggestions from some friends of mine about the Book of Culinary Fantasy - I know, I know; but the group has pretty mature tastes - but I'm not sure where I'd go after that.
I'm going to quote Psyren on a completely different issue here, but oh so right:

Psyren as a fiendish soul connoiseur:

I see Incarnum as being like tofu. Sure you can shape it to look like a steak, and even add steak flavoring, but it's never going to be a steak.

[Zweisteine]

Have you considered any of the Pie classes? Some of them are pretty good, and Pumpkin Pie would fit the season quite well.

I know dessert PrCs are banned, but can you use the more dessert-like races, like Munchkin? Sure, they're from a third-party book (Dunk & Doughnuts*), but they're very powerful if played right, though the LA might hurt.

Is the Entrée feat allowed? Having a Side Dish could raise your group's power hugely, and fill in extra roles nobody else has yet.


On another note, I keep noticing references to the "party." I know that's an official term in D&D, but my group has always called it a "meal" for this game. I couldn't find either in my rulebooks...


*Though you might not be able to find this one outside of the United States.

[Kennisiou]

You should look into a paleo build, since it gives you the restrictive diet benefits your party lacks by your salad not being vegan thanks to those cesar levels but without having to give up the toughness that comes from your meat levels. It's a pretty strong decision considering that since desert is already banned all you're really missing out on is grain and processed foods.

[Elricaltovilla]

Its really too bad your DM disallowed stormwrack. The seviche Alternate Cooking Feature for the fish classes offers some of the more unique flavors and powers out there.

Personally I never run kosher games because I think the bacon features add so much to every meal.

[Icewraith]

Alright, I'm working on a build and I could use your help.

It's a roughly Tier 3 game, my party is a Green Salad Ceasar 4/ House 7/ Crouton 1, a Tuna Seared Ahi 5/ Sushi 7, a Beef Sirloin 12, and my character, a multiclass Poultry build. I was planning on going with a caster build, Grilled 7/ Biscuits 2/ Rice 3, but I've been considering switching out Grilled casting for Fried casting (with the Cornflake Breadcrumbs variant). I've taken the Multibiscuit feat, which increases my Biscuits/day but decreases their size, and Onions in the Breading, because I have a fondness for flavor feats. I'm still trying to figure out what I can do to fill out this build, without outperforming the rest of the party.

The DM has banned Pork classes and Stormwrack (the Tuna is the DM's GF, so she's exempt), along with any Dessert PrCs.

Suggestions?

I'd be careful with Onions in the Breading if your DM is running kosher. It may be a flavor feat, but there are a few things like Col Sanders' Gambit and Chicken Infested that when combined with RAW Onions will make your DM cry. There's also the Onioniscifier, but that's probably too powerful and not the flavor you're looking for.

I know it's usually considered too powerful, but if you use Siracha in limited amounts you can pull the rest of your party out of the fire without otherwise dominating at the table or screwing with your dish's flavor. You're stuck with someone going straight Sirloin 12 and a Caesar/House salad build, and there's only so much you can do with those dishes. It works for both grilled and fried builds, and you can use to mainly kick your Sirloin up a notch.

I'm surprised your DM picked a tuna build out of Stormwrack. If he went freshwater you could have a Codzilla at the table, which is both palatable and durable enough for newbies to handle without getting frustrated.

[nedz]

Talking about the Onioniscifier is like suggesting Wun Tun, that's strictly TO.

How about shaping up for some some Cordon Bleu ?
That's always unexpected.

[GoblinArchmage]

If your going with a Poultry build, I honestly think that you should stick with Grilled casting. I know that I always say that it's better than Fried casting, but for Poultry I am even more sure of this. Sure, you have less calories per day and a lower fat class, but if you dip into some Sauce classes, you can increase both of those as well as giving yourself a lot of flavor and texture options. If you're careful, you can even avoid the Heartburn penalty. I personally find that Fried casting, if one absolutely has to use it, works better with Fish builds, which would be a poor choice without Stormwrack.

[Sith_Happens]

Personally I never run kosher games because I think the bacon features add so much to every meal.

Technically only Pork classes are banned in this game. Which is good, because if you have a spare feat slot I have yet to see a build that can go wrong by picking up Bacon-Wrapped.

[Razanir]

Isn't allegory basically an extended metaphor? Like Animal Farm being an allegory for revolution?

Yep. And I fail to see how this thread is allegorical. But whatever. Time for some food jokes. :smallsigh:


Technically only Pork classes are banned in this game. Which is good, because if you have a spare feat slot I have yet to see a build that can go wrong by picking up Bacon-Wrapped.

Didn't someone once abuse the stuffing rules to get that twice? Anyway, though, the OP might consider dipping Plain Bread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16357524&postcount=1519) to get the Cold Cut Infested flaw.

[Forrestfire]

Technically only Pork classes are banned in this game. Which is good, because if you have a spare feat slot I have yet to see a build that can go wrong by picking up Bacon-Wrapped.

That's unlikely to ever get past the DM though.

Also, while Bacon-Wrapped is good, I've never considered it worth picking up the feat for it except for a few builds, especially if the Pork Pit is in this campaign. Spending a week in that restaurant gives it to you as a bonus feat.

[Socratov]

Yep. And I fail to see how this thread is allegorical. But whatever. Time for some food jokes. :smallsigh:



Didn't someone once abuse the stuffing rules to get that twice? Anyway, though, the OP might consider dipping Plain Bread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16357524&postcount=1519) to get the Cold Cut Infested flaw.

I still don't agree with that tiersystem: it does feature some PrC's, but completely ignores desserts. What's more, it puts chicken at tier 3 when it clearly should have been tier 2 given the many options it gives you. you can do just about anything with it.

[T.G. Oskar]

How about a Rice build? Maybe if you're willing to get the Entree feat to get a side dish...

Something like Rice (Enriched) 7/Corn (Canned Kernel Variant) 6/Butter 2/Cheese (Processed Cheese Spread substitution levels) 5. The key to the build is the Stew feat: it's odd to use the Stew feat for both Butter and Cheese, but since both have the melt class feature, they are liquid enough to make a stew. Then, add the Stewed Rice feat, and use both Butter and Cheese to empower the Rice class while reducing the penalties from the Corn class (particularly the flavoring class feature [read: penalty] from the Canned Kernel variant). The end result is a perfect companion to just about any character, particularly fried casters. It works well with grilled casters, actually. With the two combined, you can make a surprising build that can take you just about anything.

Just a reminder: Rice is notoriously hard to play, so make sure you read the Rice handbook for some tips. Remember: since Rice always requires controlling the amount of water used in order to get the right "fluffy" texture, but for this build, you can't let it get "sticky" like when trying to use it for the Sushi PrC.

...Of course, the weight of the build is the Cheese, but that should be a nice Tier 3. I would have recommended it to you if you had another character using a Fried or Grilled caster, but since you want to be the caster, might as well pad the party with it, no?

[Spuddles]

It's so sad to see GM's ban Pork. It's not even that strong; just versatile (like I just made a An Egg6/Ham3/Cheese1/Omelette10 and it worked out pretty well). As long as you don't go into some kind of weird Corn Dogs shenanigans (like getting Bun Substitution (Pancake) to dodge metataste penalties for taking Rapid Syrup as a Pork), you should be fine. Most of the time, Pork is just a slightly dry stand-in for when your Beef/Filet Mignon/etc isn't available. I mean, I understand if he's trying to run a Kosher game, but still.

As for desserts... I wouldn't be surprised if someone pulled out a Fried Oreo build on him early in his career. It can be hard to re-allow desserts after seeing overpowered BS like that.


Isn't allegory basically an extended metaphor? Like Animal Farm being an allegory for revolution?


If you're having problems with dry pork, you should try out the Book of BBQs. It adds a ton of new options for Meat based classes. My favorite is Pulled Pork. It takes awhile to get good, but oh man is it worth it.

The best part are all the Sides that come with a good BBQ based meat class. There's Cornbread, Fried Pickles, Beans & Rice. If you're looking for a more eastern flavor, I hear good things about Korean BBQ Adventures.

[Red Fel]

How about a Rice build? Maybe if you're willing to get the Entree feat to get a side dish...

Something like Rice (Enriched) 7/Corn (Canned Kernel Variant) 6/Butter 2/Cheese (Processed Cheese Spread substitution levels) 5. The key to the build is the Stew feat: it's odd to use the Stew feat for both Butter and Cheese, but since both have the melt class feature, they are liquid enough to make a stew. Then, add the Stewed Rice feat, and use both Butter and Cheese to empower the Rice class while reducing the penalties from the Corn class (particularly the flavoring class feature [read: penalty] from the Canned Kernel variant). The end result is a perfect companion to just about any character, particularly fried casters. It works well with grilled casters, actually. With the two combined, you can make a surprising build that can take you just about anything.

Just a reminder: Rice is notoriously hard to play, so make sure you read the Rice handbook for some tips. Remember: since Rice always requires controlling the amount of water used in order to get the right "fluffy" texture, but for this build, you can't let it get "sticky" like when trying to use it for the Sushi PrC.

...Of course, the weight of the build is the Cheese, but that should be a nice Tier 3. I would have recommended it to you if you had another character using a Fried or Grilled caster, but since you want to be the caster, might as well pad the party with it, no?

Hmm. You know, I could see a rice build. Got a lot of flavor potential, works in almost every setting. Standard core, Rice builds are a staple. Asian setting, Rice builds become exotic and flavorful. I've even seen some pretty spicy Rice builds come out of desert-style settings, although I don't see why you would go for that when a Hummus build is clearly superior in heat-intensive locales.

That said, I like a build with some meat to it. Rice, at best, can take Main Course-like ACFs, like Bacon Bits or Chicken Broth, but it's just adding the Main Course flavoring on a Side Dish class.

Also, taking Entree? First off, that feat is broken and we all know it - most chefs would never allow that feat at their table to begin with. Seriously, getting a Five Course as your Side Dish at level 6 is outrageous. Second, a Rice build is practically a Side Dish anyway; giving a Side Dish its own Side Dish would just be absurd.

... Unless you underpowered the Side Dish, took Entree, then played a Main Course class as the Side Dish, and never told the other players which was the Side Dish, and which was the Main Course... Admittedly, that's kind of RP gold, right there.


If you're having problems with dry pork, you should try out the Book of BBQs. It adds a ton of new options for Meat based classes. My favorite is Pulled Pork. It takes awhile to get good, but oh man is it worth it.

The best part are all the Sides that come with a good BBQ based meat class. There's Cornbread, Fried Pickles, Beans & Rice. If you're looking for a more eastern flavor, I hear good things about Korean BBQ Adventures.

Hmm. You know, I was thinking about playing my Poultry as a Teriyaki 7/ Teriyaki Master 5, and dual-wielding masterwork bamboo kabobs, using the Sweet bonus to initiative and the Sour bonus to AC. That said, I heard some bad things about TWF, and I thought about instead taking EWP: Sriracha.

Doesn't matter much, though. Pretty sure if I played a Teriyaki at this point, I'd end up at forks and knives with our Sushi, and we all know who would win that fight.

[Joe the Rat]

Also, taking Entree? First off, that feat is broken and we all know it - most chefs would never allow that feat at their table to begin with. Seriously, getting a Five Course as your Side Dish at level 6 is outrageous. Second, a Rice build is practically a Side Dish anyway; giving a Side Dish its own Side Dish would just be absurd.

You can certainly do an effective Rice-centric build. I know we've had at least one Iron Chef Optimization that focused on Rice. (And that Offal one from Book of Vile Meats, but that's another discussion).

[Dire_E_Coyote]

Does your DM allow Dishes of the Wild?

I don't mean those meal-breaking combos you see on chef optimization boards (substituting bear for beef in a flanking-steak build, or the infamous swarm-of-hummingbirds in poultry builds :smallsigh:). But if you don't go overboard, a wild base can really enhance. It tends to make the core flavor a lot stronger at the expense of making the sides blander, but some people enjoy that kind of thing. Just make sure the other dishes balance it.

[nedz]

Does your DM allow Dishes of the Wild?

I don't mean those meal-breaking combos you see on chef optimization boards (substituting bear for beef in a flanking-steak build, or the infamous swarm-of-hummingbirds in poultry builds :smallsigh:). But if you don't go overboard, a wild base can really enhance. It tends to make the core flavor a lot stronger at the expense of making the sides blander, but some people enjoy that kind of thing. Just make sure the other dishes balance it.

But isn't that splat book all about collecting mushrooms amongst the trees, stalking your own boar and roasting it over an open fire ?

I did like the Marengo PrC though.

[old school man]

I am soooooooooooooooooo hungry now!:smalltongue:




John

[Zweisteine]

Do you have access to the Expanded Pie+tonics Handbook? A well-made Pie-tonic character can be very strong, not to mention flavorful.

[IamL]

Hmm. You know, I could see a rice build. Got a lot of flavor potential, works in almost every setting. Standard core, Rice builds are a staple. Asian setting, Rice builds become exotic and flavorful. I've even seen some pretty spicy Rice builds come out of desert-style settings, although I don't see why you would go for that when a Hummus build is clearly superior in heat-intensive locales.

That said, I like a build with some meat to it. Rice, at best, can take Main Course-like ACFs, like Bacon Bits or Chicken Broth, but it's just adding the Main Course flavoring on a Side Dish class.

Also, taking Entree? First off, that feat is broken and we all know it - most chefs would never allow that feat at their table to begin with. Seriously, getting a Five Course as your Side Dish at level 6 is outrageous. Second, a Rice build is practically a Side Dish anyway; giving a Side Dish its own Side Dish would just be absurd.

... Unless you underpowered the Side Dish, took Entree, then played a Main Course class as the Side Dish, and never told the other players which was the Side Dish, and which was the Main Course... Admittedly, that's kind of RP gold, right there.



Hmm. You know, I was thinking about playing my Poultry as a Teriyaki 7/ Teriyaki Master 5, and dual-wielding masterwork bamboo kabobs, using the Sweet bonus to initiative and the Sour bonus to AC. That said, I heard some bad things about TWF, and I thought about instead taking EWP: Sriracha.

Doesn't matter much, though. Pretty sure if I played a Teriyaki at this point, I'd end up at forks and knives with our Sushi, and we all know who would win that fight.

Well, you could always take a 3-level dip in Kung Pao (chicken variant), which would let you add limited Veggie spellcasting progression, allowing you to do a Dish build, buffing your bonus to damage through Spicy feats.

[Zweisteine]

So how did the adventure turn out, or did you still not finish your character? There's still a ton of advice I'm sure the Playground has to offer.

What about Fincarpyum? Seafood scraps can make for a very interesting game, even though they have a tendency to be hard to use effectively. Seriously, nobody really considers that I system to be worth anything! I bet they're repelled by the name, and I suppose the flavor an be a bit odd...

[Cirrylius]

You can actually get Garlic for free by taking the College Gourmand trait.

College Gourmand:
You've gotten so used to ketchup and Mrs. Dash and Fourthmeal taco sauce and ramen bullion that you can make just about anything taste like anything, in a pinch. Just don't be disappointed if you can't repeat it.

This trait lets you substitute the benefits of two free seasonings in your recipes via jury-rigged kitchensmithy, in the usual quantities specified under the "substitutions" chart. You don't have to be proficient with the seasonings in question, or even have them available, as long as you have access to a wide selection of flavorful kitchen flotsam. Your (Ingredients) kitchen inventory can't have more than half its slots full, and your (Seasonings) Inventory must be empty.

This ability only functions once per week; every use beyond this requires a Search check to work out what you've got left in your (Miscellaneous) kitchen inventory and what you totally put in that Wastelander Casserole last tuesday, dude, it was SO GOOD, you should be a CAKE BOSS, and each check after the 1st has a cumulative +10 DC penalty.


It's kind of overpowered, but, hey, third party, and it's only really reliably good for a single Hail Mary when the cupboard is bare. It's only super abusable when going with a Bland build, and only then because Bland has super strict restrictions on its Seasonings proficiencies- normally you get feat-taxed to death with Bland because it's all but unusable without Recipe Mastery, Complex, and Undertaste. College Gourmand can bypass all that because it specifically gives benefits without specifying the type of Seasoning required. It's probably not RAI, but the book never got an errata and it's out of print, so grain of salt.