Symbol of Stunning and Storm of Vengeance questions

[Randomocity132]

So this is a 2 part post about the upper level cleric spells I'm just now getting familiar with.

Symbol of Stunning's description reads that "This spell functions like symbol of death, except that all creatures within 60 feet of a symbol of stunning instead become stunned for 1d6 rounds." Symbol of Death says that once it is triggered, it glows and lasts for 10 minutes, affecting everyone that comes within range of it, up to the HD cap. Symbol of Stunning lacks the HD cap. Does this mean that the active Symbol of Stunning will (try to) stun anyone that walks into the area for the next 10 minutes after activation? Or does it go off and then immediately deactivate? The text would lead me to believe it tries to stun for 10 minutes, affecting individual creatures only once for the duration of its activation (no re-tries on stunning a creature). What is the understood meaning of the spell?

Storm of Vengeance describes a thunderclap on the first round, acid rain on the second, lightning bolts on the third, hail on the fourth, and then wind gusts for each round thereafter. For a 9th level spell that requires concentration each round, does this seem.......lackluster to anyone else? My reading of it makes it seem as though it only rains acid for a single round, which sounds odd to me. Is that correct? Is the spell worth using on creatures? Am I just reading it wrong?

[Vhaidara]

I believe (and if I'm wrong, I and all of my DMs would houserule it so) that Storm of Vengeance's effects are cumulative.

[eggynack]

Storm of vengeance is quite lackluster, whether it produces one effect each round, or if it produces the effects in a cumulative manner. The range and area of effect are really the only things worth recommending about it, and you could do better. The spell you should really be filling your 9th's with is miracle, which has a crazy amount of versatility. Gate is amazing too, though expensive, and astral projection is something you should use on a long term basis. When it comes to 9th's, there's usually one or two spells that just break the game wide open, and another set of spells that do not do that, and just can't compete.

[Psyren]

1) Symbol of Stunning inherits the HP limit from Symbol of Death.

2) It will stay active for the duration or until it hits its HP limit, just like a Symbol of Death will. It will also hit creatures who are out of range if they walk into range during the active period.

[Randomocity132]

1) Symbol of Stunning inherits the HP limit from Symbol of Death.

2) It will stay active for the duration or until it hits its HP limit, just like a Symbol of Death will. It will also hit creatures who are out of range if they walk into range during the active period.

Oh. That makes sense, I guess.


I only thought about using Storm since Miracle seems like it would be bothersome to any deity if you used it too frequently.

[eggynack]

I only thought about using Storm since Miracle seems like it would be bothersome to any deity if you used it too frequently.
I guess that could be an issue. Probably not, but still. Anyway, storm of vengeance is pretty low power, even without miracle hanging around. You basically have to spend several rounds waiting to get anything close to a reasonable effect, and if you're spending a ninth to do anything less than threaten the end of the encounter, that's a 9th that's not doing its job. Storm is blasting, and it seems like pretty low grade blasting at that.

[Randomocity132]

I guess that could be an issue. Probably not, but still. Anyway, storm of vengeance is pretty low power, even without miracle hanging around. You basically have to spend several rounds waiting to get anything close to a reasonable effect, and if you're spending a ninth to do anything less than threaten the end of the encounter, that's a 9th that's not doing its job. Storm is blasting, and it seems like pretty low grade blasting at that.

That's a damn shame. It sounds like something that should be ridiculously devastating, but in effect is just.....kind of pathetic.

I take it you don't play it as concurrent effects?

[eggynack]

That's a damn shame. It sounds like something that should be ridiculously devastating, but in effect is just.....kind of pathetic.

I take it you don't play it as concurrent effects?
I've never really played with the thing, but I probably would play it cumulatively. You can read it either way, and the spell deserves the better reading. It's just rather underwhelming, no matter how you read it. I mean, you spend two entire rounds doing absolutely nothing of consequence, and then you spend the third round dealing the kind of damage I would expect of a spell of about half the level. You get all of these effects from a single casting, but it leaves you pretty vulnerable to spontaneous dying, given the concentration required.

The only important factor is the area of effect, which is pretty great, but you're not doing enough in that area. I probably wouldn't prep the thing as a 5th level spell, let alone a 9th level one. I mean, you're getting stuff like wall of stone and righteous might at that level. You're also getting flame strike, which does the damage effect up front, instead of opening with frigging deafening. The comparison gets even worse on the druid list, because they get all the weather spells to compare this to directly. Out of a 5th level slot, would you rather cast storm of vengeance, or control winds? The choice seems obvious to me.

Edit: Also, it has a one round casting time for some reason. I guess it's to maintain parity with call lightning or something. You could definitely remove the one round casting time, rule it cumulative, and skip the concentration requirement, and it still wouldn't really be worth it at all. Maybe still not as a 5th level slot.

[Chronos]

It's not intended for the sorts of combats PCs usually face, with a small number of opponents of comparable level to their own. It's meant as an army-killer: Think of the Battle of Azure City, or Helm's Deep. And if it were the only army-killer spell in the books, it might even be worthwhile.

But there are plenty of other army-killers, and at significantly lower levels (they start showing up at 4th, with summoning yeth hounds and walls of fire). So, yeah, it's a waste of a 9th.

[eggynack]

It's not intended for the sorts of combats PCs usually face, with a small number of opponents of comparable level to their own. It's meant as an army-killer: Think of the Battle of Azure City, or Helm's Deep. And if it were the only army-killer spell in the books, it might even be worthwhile.

But there are plenty of other army-killers, and at significantly lower levels (they start showing up at 4th, with summoning yeth hounds and walls of fire). So, yeah, it's a waste of a 9th.
Yeah, if you're dealing with the kinda army that is taken down by a storm of vengeance, I can't imagine that they were much of a threat to begin with. The second and fourth round abilities do a total of 6d6 damage to the area, which comes out to 21 damage. Not much, in other words, and spread out over the course of several rounds. The lightning effect is decent, but the lack of ability to pick a single target for all the bolts means that you probably won't even take out a leaderish guy with the attack. I'd probably rather do something like boreal wind, which actually has a meaningful impact on the tactical makeup of a battlefield, and doesn't take actions to sustain.

[Red Fel]

Oh. That makes sense, I guess.


I only thought about using Storm since Miracle seems like it would be bothersome to any deity if you used it too frequently.

Nah, go with Miracle.

By the time you're at a level where you can cast 9th-level Divine spells, you're no longer bothering a deity; you're going out with them for coffee and scones on Wednesdays.

Casting is no longer a case of, "I beseech you, grant me thy glory;" it's more, "Hey, can I borrow some of the ol' Divine Wrath this afternoon? I've got a date with an orc army."

[Randomocity132]

Alright, so the general consensus seems to be that the spell is an awful waste compared to any other 9th. But have you / would you rule that the effects are cumulative, or does the rain last for only one round, etc?

[eggynack]

I'd say that it generates the effects cumulatively. There's definitely the wording there to support that reading, even if the alternate reading is feasible, and it's not like the spell would break anything if it were ruled in the cumulative way.

[TuggyNE]

I'd say that it generates the effects cumulatively. There's definitely the wording there to support that reading, even if the alternate reading is feasible, and it's not like the spell would break anything if it were ruled in the cumulative way.

TBH, I always assumed it was sequential, but I guess "generates additional effects" is good enough. 5 rounds of nothing but "solid fog plus a bit of wind and damp" always seemed astonishingly terribad.

[Randomocity132]

TBH, I always assumed it was sequential, but I guess "generates additional effects" is good enough. 5 rounds of nothing but "solid fog plus a bit of wind and damp" always seemed astonishingly terribad.

I only ask since the party I'm running is a rather casual group, and my cleric has more than enough "save-or-be-obliterated" spells in his arsenal to waste one on a flashy aoe effect for special occasions.

[TuggyNE]

I only ask since the party I'm running is a rather casual group, and my cleric has more than enough "save-or-be-obliterated" spells in his arsenal to waste one on a flashy aoe effect for special occasions.

Miracle for pyrotechnics. Done. :smallyuk: