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View Full Version : Blackguard/Ronin shenanigans!



Dr. Azkur
2013-11-04, 04:50 PM
I just posted this on the Simple Q&A D&D 3.5 (by RAW) XXIV thread but nobody gave me a clear answer and I actually started a glimpse of a discussion over there (I regard that thread as the greatest expression of straightforwardness).

Blackguard and Ronin are the two PrC that I am aware give you power from the flip side of your previous class. Spoilered below is the SRD on Blackguards but I assume the same applies to Ronins and Samurais. If someone would be as kind as to explain how a high level Paladin mechanically becomes a full-on Blackguard (furthermore, what's the minimum Paladin level it keeps), I would very much appreciate it.

Fallen Paladins
Blackguards who have levels in the paladin class (that is to say, are now ex-paladins) gain extra abilities the more levels of paladin they have.

A fallen paladin who becomes a blackguard gains all of the following abilities that apply, according to the number of paladin levels the character has.

1-2
Smite good 1/day. (This is in addition to the ability granted to all blackguards at 2nd level.

3-4
Lay on hands. Once per day, the blackguard can use this supernatural ability to cure himself or his fiendish servant of damage equal to his Charisma bonus × his level.

5-6
Sneak attack damage increased by +1d6. Smite good 2/day.

7-8
Fiendish summoning. Once per day, the blackguard can use a summon monster I spell to call forth an evil creature. For this spell, the caster level is double the blackguard’s class level.

9-10
Undead companion. In addition to the fiendish servant, the blackguard gains (at 5th level) a Medium-size skeleton or zombie as a companion. This companion cannot be turned or rebuked and gains all special bonuses as a fiendish servant when the blackguard gains levels. Smite good 3/day.

11 or more
A fallen paladin of this stature immediately gains a blackguard level for each level of paladin he trades in.

The character level of the character does not change. With the loss of paladin levels, the character no longer gains as many extra abilities for being a fallen paladin.

I plan on making the most optimised Samurai I can, which involves full Ronin Progression (Funny). My plan was to get Samurai 1/Ronin 10, cause I didn't think the PrC could completely override the previous class, but some people inferred so, so now I don't know. But then my brain glitched cause I don't know when to put that Ronin level and when/how it overrides Samurai. Now I'm just ranting... :smallannoyed:

:smallconfused:

Flickerdart
2013-11-04, 05:12 PM
It is not possible to trade in all your Samurai levels for Ronin levels. The option to trade in Samurai levels is only available to 11th level Samurai or higher, and there are only ten levels of Ronin to get.

My favourite use for Blackguard (aside from entering as Paladin of Tyranny to double up on goodies) is to take advantage of its casting. At level 11 you're a full BAB character with 4th level spells, which is pretty damn sweet. Hop into Nar Demonbinder and now you have 8th level spells and are a servant of black powers who binds fiends to do his bidding, which is all kinds of metal.

Dr. Azkur
2013-11-04, 05:25 PM
It is not possible to trade in all your Samurai levels for Ronin levels. The option to trade in Samurai levels is only available to 11th level Samurai or higher, and there are only ten levels of Ronin to get.

This was my initial belief and I totally do not dispute it. However, answer me this question: What level should a Samurai be and at which point should it replace its levels with Ronin to become Samurai 1/Ronin 10 if at all possible? First I thought, "Obviously at Samurai 11", then I thought "Wait, it's a class in itself so I should first have a level in it to replace the rest, so at Samurai 10", but then I thought about the requirements, which are to be Samurai +11 (and also that it would leave me without Samurai levels), "So Samurai 11/Ronin 1..." but that would leave me either with either Samurai 2 (Because I just gained a level in Ronin and traded the other 9), or... without actually advancing at all (Cause as we all know Ronin caps at 10)

:smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused:



My favourite use for Blackguard (aside from entering as Paladin of Tyranny to double up on goodies) is to take advantage of its casting. At level 11 you're a full BAB character with 4th level spells, which is pretty damn sweet. Hop into Nar Demonbinder and now you have 8th level spells and are a servant of black powers who binds fiends to do his bidding, which is all kinds of metal.

Thank you for this amazing insight, Flickerdart. May I quote you?

Mr Adventurer
2013-11-04, 05:30 PM
It is not possible to trade in all your Samurai levels for Ronin levels. The option to trade in Samurai levels is only available to 11th level Samurai or higher, and there are only ten levels of Ronin to get.

My favourite use for Blackguard (aside from entering as Paladin of Tyranny to double up on goodies) is to take advantage of its casting. At level 11 you're a full BAB character with 4th level spells, which is pretty damn sweet. Hop into Nar Demonbinder and now you have 8th level spells and are a servant of black powers who binds fiends to do his bidding, which is all kinds of metal.

That is awesome. Is there a way to make Blackguard casting Charisma-based?

Flickerdart
2013-11-04, 05:39 PM
This was my initial belief and I totally do not dispute it. However, answer me this question: What level should a Samurai be and at which point should it replace its levels with Ronin to become Samurai 1/Ronin 10 if at all possible? First I thought, "Obviously at Samurai 11", then I thought "Wait, it's a class in itself so I should first have a level in it to replace the rest, so at Samurai 10", but then I thought about the requirements, which are to be Samurai +11 (and also that it would leave me without Samurai levels), "So Samurai 11/Ronin 1..." but that would leave me either with either Samurai 2 (Because I just gained a level in Ronin and traded the other 9), or... without actually advancing at all (Cause as we all know Ronin caps at 10)

:smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused:
The example says that a ronin can choose to lose 10 levels of samurai to become a 10th level ronin, so even if that's not how it works out, that's how it was intended.




Thank you for this amazing insight, Flickerdart. May I quote you?
Sure. It's not my build idea, though - I've seen it somewhere else a long time ago.

Vaz
2013-11-04, 05:40 PM
Dynamic Priest; only allowed at 1st level however.

Dr. Azkur
2013-11-04, 05:45 PM
The example says that a ronin can choose to lose 10 levels of samurai to become a 10th level ronin, so even if that's not how it works out, that's how it was intended..
Poor design? Who would have thought?


Sure. It's not my build idea, though - I've seen it somewhere else a long time ago.
It was the description that caught my eye. "All kinds of metal" made me laugh.