Can you make an ubercharger in pathfinder?

[jhardin87]

I love the idea of an ubercharger but my DM always wants to play pathfinder and I can't figure out how to make one in pathfinder. So I have come to ye great sages of the playground, to ask that you teach this poor humble knave.

[Snowbluff]

Lance bro! Trick Riding tree! TWF! Full attack with each lance on a charge!

[Firechanter]

Well, in 3.5 the key to überchargers is a combination of Shock Trooper (Heedless Charge), Pounce, extra attacks and damage multipliers.
In PF, things are much more restrictive:
- you can have Pounce, but it requires 12 levels of Barbarian.
- there is no way to tank your AC instead of Attack bonus for Power Attack,
- au contraire, your PA is strictly limited to a fraction of BAB, as we all know.
- and afaik the only way to get damage multiplied is the Spirited Charge route.

So I suppose your best bet is to be a Small Barbarian riding on a dog or ram or something (because it's impossible to take a Large mount to many many places); expect your damage output to be a faint shadow of a basic 3.5 build.

[Ravens_cry]

Well, in 3.5 the key to überchargers is a combination of Shock Trooper (Heedless Charge), Pounce, extra attacks and damage multipliers.
In PF, things are much more restrictive:
- you can have Pounce, but it requires 12 levels of Barbarian.
- there is no way to tank your AC instead of Attack bonus for Power Attack,
.
Not quite. Tiger Pounce (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/tiger-pounce-combat) lets you do this, but with the same restrictions as Power Attack normally has in Pathfinder. I'd go Furious Focus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/furious-focus-combat). No negatives on the first attack when you power attack. Since a non-Pouncing charger only gets one attack (barring Attacks of Opportunity) I am sure you can see the potential.
I am not sure about Mounted Skirmisher. From what people said in the question and answer topic, you can't charge and make use of that feat.
Still, with enough static bonuses and multipliers, you can do more than enough damage to make things dead of appropriate level dead in one hit with the right Paladin build. It's not the thousands of damage of an ubercharger but any more than needed to kill it is just wasted.

[Snowbluff]

Pouncing is possible with the Trick Riding tree.

There is a halfling racial feat to add damage by lowering AC.

[Ravens_cry]

Pouncing is possible with the Trick Riding tree.

There is a halfling racial feat to add damage by lowering AC.
Risky Striker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/risky-striker-combat-halfling), I take it? Might make making a halfling lancer paladin worth it, though it's somewhat restricted on targets.

[Spore]

Risky Striker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/risky-striker-combat-halfling), I take it? Might make making a halfling lancer paladin worth it, though it's somewhat restricted on targets.

Make it a cavalier instead and you're golden (challenge works on EVERYTHING. It doesn't even have to understand being challenged). My halfling cavalier 9 does 3w6+48 damage per charge and he isn't even optimized. +63 if wielding the lance with two hands.

Not the best dpr in the book, but I ditched a lot of stuff for flavor. Make it an Human Sword Order Beast Rider Cavalier and you're easily close to +100 damage for a single charge and become a more noble version of Thog. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0121.html)

[Snowbluff]

Cavalier would be stuck being a one trick pony... with a pony.

[Ravens_cry]

Make it a cavalier instead and you're golden. My halfling cavalier 9 does 3w6+48 damage per charge and he isn't even optimized. +63 if wielding the lance with two hands.

Not the best dpr in the book, but I ditched a lot of stuff for flavor. Make it an Human Sword Order Beast Rider Cavalier and you're easily close to +100 damage for a single charge and become a more noble version of Thog. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0121.html)
I think my best build for damage is a Small Angilkin Aasimar Paladin with Fate's Favoured and Magical Knack. Feats are
1st Mounted Combat 3rd Ride By Attack 5th Spirited Charge 7th Power Attack 9th Furious Focus.
Mediums do a little more damage, but are harder to use in a typical campaign, and in a typical campaign there is more than enough evil to smite.
At level 10, with Smite, Saddle Surge and Divine Favour going with a +2 weapon, that's 9+4+10+3d6(avg.10)+10+9+2 x3
+9 from power attack,
+4 from Divine Power with Fate's Favoured.
+10 from strength (Two Handing handing a lance with +7 mod to Strength)
+3d6 from the lance (+10 average)
+10 from Smite
+9 from Saddle Surge
+2 from a +2 lance.
Average of 54 x3 162 average.
Oh, and if I hit with a Litany of Righteousness, that's x4 for 216.
If I crit on a none Litany strike, that's x5. 270 average. If I get really lucky and hit with critting Litany, that's x6, 324 average.
Not exactly ubercharger levels, but he's dead, Jim.
How crispy is pretty irrelevant.
It all keeps progressing too except for the Divine Favour.

[Coidzor]

Cavalier would be stuck being a one trick pony... with a pony.

He wants to be an ubercharger, so being a one-trick pony fits, yeah.

[Battleship789]

You can do this with a straight Barbarian build. Go for Spirited Charge, a lance, the Reckless Abandon rage power (basically Shock Trooper light), Greater Beast Totem (for Pounce), and pick up the rage powers that allow you to use your rage (and rage powers) on your mount. Going with the Mounted Fury archetype to get a scaling mount could be useful, too. Makes it pretty easy to jack up damage and get a lot of attacks.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Some notes...

You can dip Sohei Monk to get the Mounted Skirmisher feat super early. Level 1 if you want, but it's not so useful at level 1. MS lets you full attack as long as your mount moves its speed or less.
(I guess it's kind of debatable, but Sohei might also be combinable with Master of Many Styles, if you also want to nab Tiger Pounce early and w/o the atrocious Tiger Claws feat needed; in that case you'd dip monk for two whole levels).

You might consider a 4 level dip in Cavalier for the worthless Expert Trainer class feature...which is the requirement for the Horse Master feat, to get all your class levels to stack for mount progression.

For the class to base the build around, I like Dragoon Fighter. Roughrider Fighter is really cool, but the FAQ ruling on weapon training replacements + gloves of dueling and the Mounted Skirmisher feat, makes it kind of pointless.
Alternatively, a Half-Elf Wild-Caller Summoner riding his eidolon could be pretty good.

Be aware that PF ruled only the first attack in a charge gets damage multipliers from lance, spirited charge, etc... Even so, more dakka is more dakka; I'd still want mounted skirmisher for full attacks.

[Ravens_cry]

Be aware that PF ruled only the first attack in a charge gets damage multipliers from lance, spirited charge, etc... Even so, more dakka is more dakka; I'd still want mounted skirmisher for full attacks.
When and where was this ruling made?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Uh...not sure if it made it into the actual FAQ, but I know for sure there's at least this (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5ld6h?Bride-of-the-FAQ-Attack) and it has been established as RAW.


If I have the pounce ability and I charge with a lance, do my iterative lance attacks get the extra damage multiplier from charging?

No, for two reasons.

One, because a lance only deals extra damage when you’re riding a charging mount—not when you are charging.

Two, even if you have an unusual combination of rules that allows you to ignore the above limitation, it doesn’t makes sense that those iterative attacks gain the damage bonus. To make that second attack, you have to pull the lance back and stab forward again, and that stab doesn’t have the benefit of the charge’s momentum. (The Core Rulebook doesn’t state that you only get the damage multiplier on the first attack with a lance because there is no rule in the Core Rulebook that allows a PC to charge and take multiple attacks with a weapon, so that combination didn’t need to be addressed.)

For what it's worth, the above is one of the only times I've ever agreed with SKR on anything... It makes sense, and doing x3 damage on 4+ attacks was being met with extreme disgust on the forums; the alternative probably would've been nerfing pounce itself, and things like pounce. Like, a lot of bleeting fans on the forum were actually begging paizo to not let pounce work with manufactured weapons! That would've been an abomination!

[Ravens_cry]

I agree, it does make sense, and not something I would argue with.
Still a nice feat, especially if you use non-charge multipliers like the above Litany.
I can already do enough to one shot almost anything close to level appropriate anywho.

[StreamOfTheSky]

That reminds me of the awesomeness of another paladin spell, Saddle Surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/saddle-surge). Generally more useful for a mounted archer, but a mounted skirmisher using lancer could get good mileage out of it, too. Since the flat damage bonus would multiply...

EDIT: It's a morale bonus, so arguably the optimistic gambler trait (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/second-darkness/optimistic-gambler) would extend it for 1d4 rounds. It would overlap w/ the morale bonus from the new round's movement, but it'd let you retain a max movement-based bonus on a round you only moved 10 ft, or even 0 ft...
And by arguably, I mean it looks like it works for sure, but your DM might throw a book at you. :smallsmile:

[Ravens_cry]

That reminds me of the awesomeness of another paladin spell, Saddle Surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/saddle-surge). Generally more useful for a mounted archer, but a mounted skirmisher using lancer could get good mileage out of it, too. Since the flat damage bonus would multiply...

Yeah, it's part of my breakdown for my charger above. It's nice because it does add nice things for both more than one style of play. It might be better for an archer, but it's still very nice. An extra +21 or 27 to damage on a simple Spirited Charge at level 10 is nothing to sneeze at.


EDIT: It's a morale bonus, so arguably the optimistic gambler trait would extend it for 1d4 rounds. It would overlap w/ the morale bonus from the new round's movement, but it'd let you retain a max movement-based bonus on a round you only moved 10 ft, or even 0 ft...
. . . maybe. If your DM allows it, it's good if the baddies after you attack tend to rush you.

[Snowbluff]

For what it's worth, the above is one of the only times I've ever agreed with SKR on anything... It makes sense, and doing x3 damage on 4+ attacks was being met with extreme disgust on the forums; the alternative probably would've been nerfing pounce itself, and things like pounce. Like, a lot of bleeting fans on the forum were actually begging paizo to not let pounce work with manufactured weapons! That would've been an abomination!
2 things:

RAW has never been about making sense.

Those Paizo boards are awful. :smallfrown:

That reminds me of the awesomeness of another paladin spell, Saddle Surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/saddle-surge). Generally more useful for a mounted archer, but a mounted skirmisher using lancer could get good mileage out of it, too. Since the flat damage bonus would multiply...

EDIT: It's a morale bonus, so arguably the optimistic gambler trait (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/second-darkness/optimistic-gambler) would extend it for 1d4 rounds. It would overlap w/ the morale bonus from the new round's movement, but it'd let you retain a max movement-based bonus on a round you only moved 10 ft, or even 0 ft...
And by arguably, I mean it looks like it works for sure, but your DM might throw a book at you. :smallsmile:

This is pretty sweet.

[Ravens_cry]

2 things:

RAW has never been about making sense.

Those Paizo boards are awful. :smallfrown:

Not everyone plays by RAW. Sometimes a DM has to adjudicate. Sometimes it's what 'makes sense', sometimes it's a matter of balance, sometimes it's because the rules don't cover that explicit situation. Sometimes the rules are just flat out busted, like a spell meant to take control of golems originally having SR.

[Snowbluff]

Not everyone plays by RAW. Sometimes a DM has to adjudicate. Sometimes it's what 'makes sense', sometimes it's a matter of balance, sometimes it's because the rules don't cover that explicit situation. Sometimes the rules are just flat out busted, like a spell meant to take control of golems originally having SR.

There's not accounting for that, though. That's why it's best to give what's RAW, and then tell them to talk to the DM if something sounds iffy.

[Ravens_cry]

There's not accounting for that, though. That's why it's best to give what's RAW, and then tell them to talk to the DM if something sounds iffy.
This is also why it's good to know the general optimization level of the group as a whole. More sketchy but powerful RAW might be allowable under one group's power level but not another.

[Snowbluff]

This is also why it's good to know the general optimization level of the group as a whole. More sketchy but powerful RAW might be allowable under one group's power level but not another.

Yeah, he's asking if it's possible. This is irrelevant. :smalltongue:

[StreamOfTheSky]

I am frequently the first one to advocate for boosting the martials and nerfing the casters, and decrying when a new rule item or errata does the exact opposite. Lots of people can vouch for me on that, many of them in an annoyed, exasperated, or angry tone. :smallwink:
It's why I complain about PF compared to 3E so much.

That said, I never liked uber charging, and pounce + triple damage (or more) is broken. Many spells and caster abilities are also broken, and much more so...that doesn't make doing twice as much damage as the monsters have max hp "ok." And damage output is not the problem martials need help fixing... (well, the underpowered fighting styles and dex-based builds do)

[Ravens_cry]

Yeah, he's asking if it's possible. This is irrelevant. :smalltongue:
Possible, but I think it's unfair to get someone worked up if it's something that all too likely might not be approved. Personally, I'd say, with the trait, the spell lasts 1d4+CL rounds, rather than each bonus itself.

[Gnaeus]

Well, in 3.5 the key to überchargers is a combination of Shock Trooper (Heedless Charge), Pounce, extra attacks and damage multipliers.
In PF, things are much more restrictive:
- you can have Pounce, but it requires 12 levels of Barbarian.
- there is no way to tank your AC instead of Attack bonus for Power Attack,
- au contraire, your PA is strictly limited to a fraction of BAB, as we all know.
- and afaik the only way to get damage multiplied is the Spirited Charge route.

So I suppose your best bet is to be a Small Barbarian riding on a dog or ram or something (because it's impossible to take a Large mount to many many places); expect your damage output to be a faint shadow of a basic 3.5 build.

I think your best bet is to be a Druid or summoner. They already get multiple attacks and easy access to pounce. So you just need a way to pimp your power attacking or other charge damage. The eidolon can use a lance...

[Eldariel]

I am frequently the first one to advocate for boosting the martials and nerfing the casters, and decrying when a new rule item or errata does the exact opposite. Lots of people can vouch for me on that, many of them in an annoyed, exasperated, or angry tone. :smallwink:
It's why I complain about PF compared to 3E so much.

That said, I never liked uber charging, and pounce + triple damage (or more) is broken. Many spells and caster abilities are also broken, and much more so...that doesn't make doing twice as much damage as the monsters have max hp "ok." And damage output is not the problem martials need help fixing... (well, the underpowered fighting styles and dex-based builds do)

Honestly, I think it's just Lances being broken. Like, one weapon does double damage on a mounted charge (triple with a feat)? If you think about it, you can charge with another pointy-ended polearm like a Halberd or a Glaice, and it ought to be fairly close to as efficient even if the weapon is not quite designed for that. Hell, the extra momentum makes swings from many heavy weapons more efficient. But the game gives Lances double damage, something that has no precedent anywhere else in the system.

Double damage is mostly just a way too big a bonus that basically makes it the only reasonable weapon option if it's usable (especially since it multiplies all bonuses too). Same goes for Spirited Charge, doubly (triply?) so on low levels.


Of course, Lance could deal extra damage but multipliers are inherently "bugged" as in they tend to just break things. Hell, that's how 3.5 übercharger happens and no matter how much people argue for melee getting nice stuff, being limited to only 1 thing and that thing being so efficient it can kill anything it can hit is just a tad too swingy to make for interesting gameplay. In my book, that's not nice stuff so much as boring, binary gameplay. Melee can be good without having one move that if successful kills anything but is inherently restricted (unless you use Bounding Assault I guess). And on the other hand, that kind of an ability doesn't make melee good by comparison to anything else, doubly so since the easiest targets for such attacks are melee enemies.

Then again, Lance + Spirited Charge is one of the very few ways around the other big bug in the combat system, full attacks on higher levels when you have iteratives/multiple base attacks. Pounce is kind of a symptom of this bug as a partial, way too expensive fix providing something that should be granted by default.

[Ravens_cry]

Spirited charge gives double damage with any weapon for what it's worth.
If I am ever in a campaign I can be a mounted medium character, I'll probably make a Cleric of a Neutral Death God with a scythe. Death rides a pale horse, not a pale dog or a pale pony, after all.

[Blyte]

If you don't want to mess with a mount, a barbarian (pounce or overrun) in rhino hide with a furious+vicious weapon/amulet of mighty fists works well.

no casting set up required, just plow into stuff.

[Feint's End]

If you have no problems with 3rd party psionics (which are awesome in PF) then you can go with a Psywar. With the right path and the right power they are one of the strongest chargers out of the box. And they also work from really early levels.

[Snowbluff]

Lance broken? Of course no-

Okay, maybe. Damage isn't something I consider immediately broken, though. Also, how isn't mounted combat supposed to be viable without it? Your damage is pathetic without iteratives.


Possible, but I think it's unfair to get someone worked up if it's something that all too likely might not be approved. Personally, I'd say, with the trait, the spell lasts 1d4+CL rounds, rather than each bonus itself.
Meh.

I think it says morale bonus. Put me down for the opposite. :smalltongue:

[Eldariel]

Lance broken? Of course no-

Okay, maybe. Damage isn't something I consider immediately broken, though. Also, how isn't mounted combat supposed to be viable without it? Your damage is pathetic without iteratives.

The iterative-problem is just yet another symptom of full attack being dysfunctional. When you put that much of an archetype's power into such a limited action where you basically tell them to shut up and sit down, you're naturally going to create huge issues. When you do it in a way where the starting point is the same but all the power growth goes into the limited mechanic, well, you're going to have a really stupid scaling system.

Lance is a whole different problem; it's broken because of how much better it is than its peers. It's not broken insofar as to unbalance warriors vs. other types (indeed, as 3.5 chargers prove, no amount of damage can accomplish that) but it's broken vs. other weapons and the mechanics it uses are dysfunctional (combine it with pounce and suddenly you end up with exactly one competitive option damage-wise). Lance basically says "Fighting like real mounted troops did? No dice, hang your maces and swords and pick up a lance no matter the situation".

[Snowbluff]

What is the lance for then? Hm? I mean you talk about "real" fighting, but homogenizing the weapon system any further is a terrible solution. "Real" would mean very few people would have swords and maces in the first place. Spears were a lot more common.

Also, you can still have a sword on you. The lance is a reach weapon, for better and for worse.

[Eldariel]

What is the lance for then? Hm? I mean you talk about "real" fighting, but homogenizing the weapon system any further is a terrible solution. "Real" would mean very few people would have swords and maces in the first place. Spears were a lot more common.

Also, you can still have a sword on you. The lance is a reach weapon, for better and for worse.

My point was that yes, you might use lance in a mounted charge but when it comes to cutting through enemy ranks on a horseback you're going to use a sword or a mace or what-have-you while; you'd generally carry both. There's basically no mechanical support for attacking with any non-lance weapon on horseback when it's moving more than 5' a round.

[Ravens_cry]

Meh.

I think it says morale bonus. Put me down for the opposite. :smalltongue:
Well, if I ever get a chance to make the Aasimar charger described above but with Optimistic Gambler instead of Fate's Favoured, I'll ask my DM.

[TuggyNE]

Lance broken? Of course no-

Lances are broken mostly in tournaments. :smalltongue:

[Snowbluff]

My point was that yes, you might use lance in a mounted charge but when it comes to cutting through enemy ranks on a horseback you're going to use a sword or a mace or what-have-you while; you'd generally carry both. There's basically no mechanical support for attacking with any non-lance weapon on horseback when it's moving more than 5' a round.

Yeah, that's more of the spring attack line's sort of deal. I would think the trick rider feats would let you run through with a full attack.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, that's more of the spring attack line's sort of deal. I would think the trick rider feats would let you run through with a full attack.

Yeah, Spring Attack-type abilities are yet another symptom of the full attack problem (except they don't really even fix it). Why does it require feat, archetype or anything starting from 6 BAB but before then it's free? I don't even know.

Full attack + move should be the default state of affairs from which you can start building with feats/archetypes/whatever to get something special. I mean, a mounted warrior who can't attack effectively is basically stopping his horse to hit somebody. And actions are a metagame construct; being able to only move before or after doing your action basically means your character is only allowed to stop for an action every 6 seconds... It's just...the mundane side of the combat is so inelegantly done and it'd be so easy to fix it but PF passed up on the opportunity. I don't get it.

[Hylas]

In PF, things are much more restrictive:
- you can have Pounce, but it requires 12 levels of Barbarian.
- there is no way to tank your AC instead of Attack bonus for Power Attack,
- au contraire, your PA is strictly limited to a fraction of BAB, as we all know.
- and afaik the only way to get damage multiplied is the Spirited Charge route.


While you are correct in that abilities are much more restrictive, there's a couple noteworthy abilities worth mentioning (and would be useful for any prospective charging barbarians out there).

-Beast Totem is level 10 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/beast-totem-greater-su), but that's really a minor point.
-Reckless Abandon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/reckless-abandon-ex) will effectively let you use power attack to drop your AC for a bonus to damage. You can combine this with furious focus to get a bonus to attack and damage, but it's not as useful for someone using pounce.

Though you're still probably better off using two lances from a horse.

[StreamOfTheSky]

A synthesist, or the eidolon of a normal summoner, can have pounce right at level 1.

And of course, wildshaping druid gets it at 6.

Magus can spell combat with Bladed Dash starting at level 4 to full attack and make an extra attack, and move 30 ft without provoking, making the attacks at any point(s) during the move he wants to.

The martials generally don't get pounce till level 10+ in PF, but the casters get it fairly early. Because they're supposed to be the melee gods. Clearly.

(I don't have a problem with the magus, though....it's a gish caster and he actually has spell slots to limit it; the other 2 are basically 24/7.)

[Khosan]

Couldn't a Summoner's Eidolon make a pretty decent charger? Grab up as many Limb evolutions as you can, give each of them a lance to hold, put it on a horse and tally-ho. Does depend on how multiple weapons and charge attacks work.

If you could make one attack with each weapon on a charge, it's pretty terrifying:

Half-Elf Summoner 20 with 4x Extra Evolution Feats gives us 35 Evolution points to work with. Start with a Quadruped, make it Huge (10 EP), give it Pounce (1 EP) and then 12 pairs of arms (24 EP). For the eidolon's feats, we want Power Attack, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Multiweapon Fighting, Martial Weapon Proficiency (Lance) and Weapon Focus (Lance).

A huge lance deals 3d6 damage and we get +14 from having 38 Strength (14 base, +8 from Summoner 20 and +16 from Huge evolution), +8 from Power Attack for a total 3d6+22, triple on a charge with the main hand lance and 3d6+11 with the other 23 off-hand lances. Chance to hit suffers a bit at +22 (+15 base, +14 Str, +2 charge, +1 Weapon Focus, -4 Power Attack, -4 from multi-wielding, -2 size).

If everything hits, you're looking at 216d6+825 damage. Average of 1581 damage. Someone may want to check my math though.

EDIT: And you need a Gargantuan mount, which probably means a dinosaur of some kind.

EDIT: Whoops! I did make some mistakes. Forgot to take into account that both PA and Str have less of an effect with off-hand weapons. All fixed.

[Ravens_cry]

I most campaigns can't handle a Large mount, I have my doubts you are getting a Gargantuan one to fit . . . literally.

[Snowbluff]

I most campaigns can't handle a Large mount, I have my doubts you are getting a Gargantuan one to fit . . . literally.Yeah, halfings are the best choice.:smalltongue:

[Ravens_cry]

Yeah, halfings are the best choice.:smalltongue:
Nah, Small Variant Aasimar. :smallbiggrin:

[Khosan]

I most campaigns can't handle a Large mount, I have my doubts you are getting a Gargantuan one to fit . . . literally.

Oh no doubt. The imagery of what is essentially a gigantic porcupine riding a T-Rex is hilarious though.

Unfortunately, it doesn't scale down particularly well since Eidolons get stupidly large bonuses to strength for increasing their size. Making it Small comes at the cost of 20 strength (or as little as 12 with four Ability Increase evolutions for 8 evolution points) which isn't particularly good news. Brings the average down to 921 (1d6+16 with the main lance, 1d6+8 with all 25 off-lancess) and the attack bonus down to +19.