Magic Systems

[Grytorm]

Has anyone come across a RPG with a magic system that is at the same time very flexible but the mages are thematically limited in what they can do? So not like D&D or Mage the Awakening where a typical experienced Wizard can do just about anything they want. And not having the aspect of characters being completely locked into at most a single progression of what a Wizard can do. Although I cannot think of an example for this category. Mostly I want to know if their is a system where a mage follows some theme that defines what they can without being to restrictive but the system isn't limited to a handful of themes and instead allows a wide range of applicable themes.

[Jay R]

In Fantasy Hero, the GM can easily limit the magic system that way. The joy of the Hero System is its extreme flexibility. The annoyance (for some) is that it requires the use of simple arithmetic, including multiplication and division, during character creation.

[Grytorm]

Thinking about it, if I was to design a system to allow customization as well as keeping people themed something a little like invocations, however the abilities would probably be a bit more powerful and cold be advanced. Each ability would have 2 attributes ad whenever you chose a new ability it would have to have an attribute of an ability you already had.

[Knaight]

REIGN does this. Individual spells are all sorts of impressive and versatile, but you don't get many, and the methods of getting into a path of magic tend to be intensive enough that going for multiple is a questionable idea (unless you stick to the low end spells). For instance, there is a set of very impressive healing spells. They are only available to those desperate and stupid enough to climb up a particular mountain and stare at the sun until they go blind, at which point the magic of the mountain might maybe give them something - meaning that anyone who already has magic probably isn't going to give it a shot.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Anima - Beyond Fantasy does this. Magic is seperated into paths like light, darkness, creation, fire, etc. where every path has an opposite that costs double to learn. So, if you know destruction magic getting into creation costs twice as much. You get more Magic Level (to buy knowledge of paths and metamagic) by spending points on level up or raising intelligence. You get more mana regeneration and faster casting by raising power.

A dedicated mage can learn maybe 3-4 paths if he completely eschews metamagic, so it's probably more like 2 or 3.
You can get more but it comes at the cost of mana regeneration (which is important as it can take several days or even weeks to completely refill your pool. It also determines how long your spells take to cast).

Magic is seriously powerful but a mage has maybe 5-7 really powerful spells in him before he's dry so it's not the swiss army knife the D&D wizard is.

[BWR]

It sounds like Ars Magica is exactly what you are looking for.

Sort of like Mage, there are several magic skills (the Arts) and all magical effects are combinations of two of the Arts (divided into Form and Technique). Techniques are five basic skills which allow you to create, destroy, understand, control or change something. The ten Forms are animals, air, water, fire, earth, humans, illiusion, mind, plants and magic (yes, magic. It makes sense if you read the system). The base system comes with a flexible and fairly detailed method for creating magical effects - both spells and items - allowing you to create standard spellbook incantations or effects on the fly or a wand of fireballs. For instance if you wanted to create a fireball effect you would have to use the Create and Fire skills, then add modifiers based on how much damage you wish to do, range, area of effect and duration, then make the difficulty on your die roll. If you want a coldball, you woukd use Destroy Fire (since according to the philosophy of magic, cold is absence of fire). If you wanted to make a fireball out of a nearby conflagration you would use Control Fire to move it.

It is hard to become good at all the skills, virtually impossible if you play the system by RAW, so you can make a kind of meh generalist, someone who is ok at a few things or a powerful one-trick pony. I haven't hung around the AM community so I don't really know if it's possible to break the game like a D&D wizard can but it seems difficult.

[CombatOwl]

Has anyone come across a RPG with a magic system that is at the same time very flexible but the mages are thematically limited in what they can do?

Dresden files, sort of. I mean there is an abstract possibility of being able to do whatever you want, but in practice you require your foci, spells, and aspects to actually get enough shifts to make anything but very minor effects happen. It's usually a relatively limited assortment of spells.

GURPS, obviously, has a magic system suitable for your tastes.

[erikun]

Glorantha (RuneQuest/HeroQuest) might be something similar to what you are looking for. It doesn't have "mages" because anyone can cast any spell, but very basic spells start out as augmentations of what a character can do. That is, a character may know magic that allows them to run superhumanly fast, or heal from injuries faster, or swim up a raging river. However, they could not cast a spell that allowed them to regrow limbs or breathe water, because this isn't something they could do naturally.

As the character grows in magic proficiency, they do begin learning magic that is outright supernatural and can allow them to do such things. The person who knows swimming magic may learn a spell that does allow them to breathe water. The person who has been learning magic for running fast might learn a spell giving them wings for flight, or actually teleporting to elsewhere.

What spells a character has access to depend on how they are studying and acquiring the spells. Characters who follow a god ("Clerics") emulate aspects of that god with their magic, and so could develop wildly different magic depending on what the god can do: A god who has the speed of the deer, the strength of the bear, and the wings of the eagle can grant a spell that gives a character wings. Characters who study magic spells independently ("Wizards") are not limited to what they can learn in this fashion, but must pick up all independent spells from scratch. A studied spellcaster could choose to learn water-breathing magic alongside their swimming magic, but would need to study the different spell as new.

[Pilo]

Basic and Ji-Herp has that too.

Magic is defined by element (Air, water, plant, earth, fire...) and action (create, destroy, invoke, bind, dismiss). Scores determine aera and power of the effect, but all is up to the character.

Talislanta and Dark Eye have nice magic systems too.

[Arcane_Snowman]

It is hard to become good at all the skills, virtually impossible if you play the system by RAW, so you can make a kind of meh generalist, someone who is ok at a few things or a powerful one-trick pony. One trick pony is a relative term for Ars Magica as well, for while you can be a Create Fire mage with little to no other arts you can still utilize any combination of Create X or X Fire, allowing for a bit of versatility.


I haven't hung around the AM community so I don't really know if it's possible to break the game like a D&D wizard can but it seems difficult. The answer is yes, but generally only with GM/Group permission. In Ars Magica, Hermetic Magic as it is called is based off of a Theory of Magic, which has several limitations, to break these limits can take several lifetimes of research and will only succeed if they've been approved.

Without research, it's still fairly "simple" to make a ridiculously powerful mage who is only beatable by other mages, but this isn't so much a problem in a game which assumes you're all mages, in a gigantic organization of mages. And given that it's easier to get a good defense than a good offense, if you get known as a fire-slinger, chances are anyone who is going to go up against you is going to be coming prepared. Coupled with the fact that experience gain is tracked over time, it becomes a huge time-sink to switch focus mid-career, and you'll never really be able to catch back up with the "ideal".

[Cikomyr]

I loved the WFRP magic system because each Lore of Magics were thematics, and influenced a character's personality. Although the spell list was rather limited; you could probably come up with house rules that allow for creativity within each Lore's theme.

[Tyrrell]

The answer is yes, but generally only with GM/Group permission. In Ars Magica, Hermetic Magic as it is called is based off of a Theory of Magic, which has several limitations, to break these limits can take several lifetimes of research and will only succeed if they've been approved.

Really original research, while it will eventually allow a character to do something that no wizard has ever done before, is somewhat less powerful than just hitting the books and becoming good with the magic that your character is most suited to. Throwing fifteen seasons into a minor breakthrough is, as general rule, not as useful as throwing ten seasons into studying a specific combination of magical arts to increase you basic magical horsepower in a particular way and then spending five seasons developing three spells absolutely perfect for your new improved abilities.



Without research, it's still fairly "simple" to make a ridiculously powerful mage who is only beatable by other mages, but this isn't so much a problem in a game which assumes you're all mages, in a gigantic organization of mages. And given that it's easier to get a good defense than a good offense, if you get known as a fire-slinger, chances are anyone who is going to go up against you is going to be coming prepared.specifically the magical warding guidelines are exploitable and there are many of us who house rule them so general immunity to things is not so easy to achieve.


Coupled with the fact that experience gain is tracked over time, it becomes a huge time-sink to switch focus mid-career, and you'll never really be able to catch back up with the "ideal" That's more or less true especially in cases where a character has virtues like affinity in an art and magical focus. On the other hand (especially with second and third editions of the game) there may well come a point where the diminishing payoff gained by putting more and more study into already powerful arts pushes characters to broaden their focus.

There can also be scope broadening of a specialization as you get better with your arts. A fire mage who starts out using fire for combat might eventually turn to using fire for construction, crafting, transportation, information gathering and so on. I had a game where the mind focused magician in our group left. The character in our game who focused on destruction magic then invented a spell to destroy a target's ability be dishonest. It wasn't the same as being able to pluck secrets from the mind of another but it served us pretty well. Specialization in Ars magica (for magi anyway) is very much about how you go about solving problems, not nearly as much about what sort of problems your character is equipped to solve.

[barna10]

GURPS. Open ended and you can limit it just by making certain spells unknown in your world. Plus the mage is limited by fatigue points. An excellent system.

[meschlum]

I guess Exalted Raksha don't qualify, due to the "Do Anything" clause.


That said, I am fond of the system for Reve: the Dragon Oneiros, in which reality is made from dragon dreams, and magic consists of tampering with them.

Mechanics-wise, there are four 'schools' of magic, with a fair number of spells in each. By selecting your spells, you can definitely specialize in a particular way of interacting with the world, but there are fairly hard limits on what can be done overall - absent creative use of your specialty, of course. Magic is fairly slow to cast in terms of combat time, but most spells can be stored for later casting - though the more spells you have stored, the more time it takes to release them, and you can't easily store the same spell many times for quick casting. Plus, you're probably limited to half a dozen accessible stored spells.


The schools are:

Oneiros - manipulating the world. Mostly transmutation spells, which permanently turn one element into another in a fixed area - the spells can work for up to a day. Earth to Water for instant moat, Air to Fire for attack, Metal to Wood for your enemies' equipment. Other spells create 'auras' where things behave oddly. Making wood transparent, levitating, helping plants grow...

Hypnos - manipulating minds and appearances. Charm, memory alteration, illusions, scrying, and even summoning entities with a single mission (such as guardinag a place, or hunting someone). Quite versatile, but tends to affect individuals rather than areas - and doesn't really make any direct permanent changes. Has a few weird rules which can lead to exciting backfires (exciting as in creating hopefully brief gaps in reality).

Narcos - infusing magic into the world, often to make permanent items. Healing potions are the simplest version, then you get a range of rituals that can be used to create spell holding items (if you know the relevant spell), boosted items (better equipment and animated brooms), or items with special powers. Tends to take a fair amount of effort and personal cost to pull off, but acn be quite versatile if combined with other schools - or makes you a superlative healer and alchemist. One of the few ways (and by far the safest) by which non-mages can become mages, though it's a very rare event.

Thanatos - the magic of waking is Evil. It's also quite useful and versatile, from curses to tranforming yourself (or others) and summoning powerful spirits. Again, a fair number of options depending on what you want to do, and some rather significant costs to using it - most mages are prone to fits of minor and temporary insanity, Thanatos users get the Nasty urges more often.


So you've got the potential to do a lot, a wide range of things you could specialize in within a fixed context, and magic use is slow and potentially unreliable enough that you don't really hit Batman stages too often. Though if you decide to live somewhere and stay there, you can definitely look into creating permanent walls of fire around your house, or the like. Or just turn the cliff next door into a flash flood to remove intruders (until you run out of cliff).

[LibraryOgre]

I'd put forth the Dragonlance SAGA system. Wizards and Mystics had at most 6 spheres of what they knew... no more than 3 of "Sorcery" and 3 of "Mysticism"... and that was a pretty specialized character. Within your schools and spheres, you created spells when you wished to cast them, determining casting time, duration, etc. as you wanted.

You could have some very creative effects, but were also very limited... no more than Line of Sight effects, no longer than 1 hour, etc.

[Cikomyr]

I'd put forth the Dragonlance SAGA system. Wizards and Mystics had at most 6 spheres of what they knew... no more than 3 of "Sorcery" and 3 of "Mysticism"... and that was a pretty specialized character. Within your schools and spheres, you created spells when you wished to cast them, determining casting time, duration, etc. as you wanted.

You could have some very creative effects, but were also very limited... no more than Line of Sight effects, no longer than 1 hour, etc.

But, as Spoony would say:

Who the **** would pick up a Black Robe? Who goes around saying "I'm evil!!!"?

[BWR]

I guess the founders of the Order felt that, like dragons, wizards should be color-coded for your convenience.

[LibraryOgre]

But, as Spoony would say:

Who the **** would pick up a Black Robe? Who goes around saying "I'm evil!!!"?

First, this was Dragonlance SAGA; 5th age, so there were no robes, no gods, no actual wizards.

However, to the actual robe question... it's important to realize, in the D&D worlds, "evil" is not "wrong". Being evil is being RIGHT about how the world REALLY IS. Being evil means aligning with the powerful in order to be powerful and eventually be part of the new world order, or rule the new world. It's joining the winning team, because Evil is a Team, and so is Good.

Now, you'll note that there are a lot of cultural pressures going on. Elves default to Team Good. It's no coincidence that the most evil elf we know, Dalamar, was from the lower classes. He was forbidden from learning magic, but evil would teach him where good would not. His ambition and drive for power and knowledge was such that he joined Team Evil, rather than follow Team Good's rules.

Humans tend towards Neutrality. We value benevolence and so on, but we also exalt self-interest and have a certain fascination for the ruthless bastard who claws his way to the top regardless of who gets in his way. Thus, humans are a lot more likely to be evil than elves.

In the real world, humans tend to talk about Good and view it as the only "right" way... but we also have our exemplars of Chaos and Evil and Law. But when Team Evil is an actual team worth working for... well, as Gordon Gekko said, "Greed is good."

[TheOOB]

Magic systems are hard to build. The problem arises in that you have so make something that makes sense both for a rules system standpoint of coherent abilities that have effects balanced with what no magical characters can do(or at least characters with different magical abilities), while still also having something that fits within the context of a believable game world.

7th Sea had some of the best ideas I've ever seen, though the executing was somewhat lacking. Major magical abilities came from sorcery bloodlines that run/ran through the nobility of every major nation. Each bloodline is entirely unique with different themes and mechanics, and many of them(glamour and laedom come to mind) have a lot of flexibility with two sorcerers of that bloodline having very different abilities.

The problems were that a) full sorcerery requires 40% of your building resources meaning you SUCK at anything else, and b) not every school is designed to work for players. Porte and Sorte can be godly, annoying, or useless depending on the scenerio and how permissive your GM is.

[The Cat Goddess]

GURPS. Open ended and you can limit it just by making certain spells unknown in your world. Plus the mage is limited by fatigue points. An excellent system.

GURPS Voodoo (3rd edition GURPS) is cool and has tiers of power, while still keeping you from being "Bat-Mage".