Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground LI [Archive]

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Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-04, 10:43 PM

Welcome, contestants, judges, and guests to Iron Chef LI. Here in Optimization Colosseum, contestants will endeavor to create an optimized and flavorful character using a specified D&D3.5 prestige class as a "Secret Ingredient".

Contestants: You will need to present a write-up of your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20-level build in the table below. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

Menu: For most challenges, the "special ingredient" will be drawn from Core plus Completes. There will, from time to time, be special challenges that showcase secret ingredients from other books--for example, the XPH.

32 point-buy is the presumed creation method, but we have generally allowed other levels of point-buy.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.

Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em. Please refrain from using Taint unless it's necessary for the Secret Ingredient.

Cooking Time: Contestants will have until 11:59PM GMT on Monday, November 18th, 2013 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, Kuulvheysoon. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 11:59PM GMT on Monday, December 2nd, 2013 to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted.

Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Secret Ingredient.

Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is an automatic loss of one point per flaw in this category. Other things that will cause lost points here are excessive multiclassing, and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, will lose you points. Please note the following change: a legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using too many sources may be an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not. In that same vein, drawing solely from the Core 3 (and the d20 SRD) should not be punished for lacking Originality.
Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!

Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.NAME OF ENTRY
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

2nd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

3rd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

4th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

5th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

6th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

7th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

8th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

9th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

10th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

11th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

12th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

13th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

14th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

15th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

16th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

17th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

18th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

19th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

20th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

CodeNAME OF ENTRY
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

2nd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

3rd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

4th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

5th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

6th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

7th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

8th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

9th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

10th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

11th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

12th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

13th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

14th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

15th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

16th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

17th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

18th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

19th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

20th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)Spells per day/Spells Known
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]

CodeSpells per day/Spells Known
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]

For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.
Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

Leadership is banned; we're producing a meal, not a seven-course banquet for a hundred diners. If your entry includes a prestige class or ACF that grants Leadership or a Leadership-like ability as a bonus feat, the feat should be ignored and is not eligible to be traded away for another feat or ACF through any means.

So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing!

This week's special ingredient is:
Complete Divine's Black Flame Zealot!
We will award 1st through 3rd places, as well as a shout-out for honorable mention. The honorable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build. Judges, contestants and guests alike are invited to vote for honorable mention via PM.

Allez, optimiser!

Contestants

Judges

The Builds

Past Competitions

Iron Chef I: Entropomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142470)
Iron Chef II: Psibond Agent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146583)
Iron Chef III: Cancer Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148584)
Iron Chef IV: Stonelord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150595)
Iron Chef V: War Chanter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152543)
Iron Chef VI: Master of Masks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156876)
Iron Chef VII: Green Star Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158633)
Iron Chef VIII: Pyrokineticist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160266)
Iron Chef IX: Animal Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162702)
Iron Chef X: Mythic Exemplar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164381)
Iron Chef XI: Blade Bravo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166539)
Iron Chef XII: War Mind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9426386)
Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172233)
Iron Chef XIV: Seeker of the Song (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174434)
Iron Chef XV: Drunken Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176049)
Iron Chef XVI: Assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178202)
Iron Chef XVII: Ardent Dilettante (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182492)
Iron Chef XVIII: Unseelie Dark Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186097)
Iron Chef XIX: Dread Pirate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190607)
Iron Chef XX: Incandescent Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10976416)
Iron Chef XXI: Ghostwalker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198921)
Iron Chef XXII: Dervish (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206576)
Iron Chef XXIII: Divine Crusader (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210071)
Iron Chef XXIV: Tactical Soldier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214198)
Iron Chef XXV: Scion of Tem-Et-Nu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217441)
Iron Chef XXVI: Shadowdancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220956)
Iron Chef XXVII: Mindbender (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224008)
Iron Chef XXVIII: Cryokineticist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227304)
Iron Chef XXIX: Consecrated Harrier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229688)
Iron Chef XXX: Initiate of Pistis Sophia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233346)
Iron Chef XXXI: Shadow Sentinel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236908)
Iron Chef XXXII: Temple Raider of Olidammara (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239786)
Iron Chef XXXIII: Drow Judicator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243052)
Iron Chef XXXIV: Dragon Disciple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246072)
Iron Chef XXXV: Death Delver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249542)
Iron Chef XXXVI: Acolyte of the Skin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252923)
Iron Chef XXXVII: Justiciar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13865473)
Iron Chef XXXVIII: Hand of the Winged Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255215)
Iron Chef XXXIX: Renegade Mastermaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260333)
Iron Chef XL: Nightsong Infiltrator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263173)
Iron Chef XLI: Geomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266709)
Iron Chef XLII: Shadowblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270196)
Iron Chef XLIII: Bladesinger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=274122)
Iron Chef XLIV: Urban Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279116)
Iron Chef XLV: Talon of Tiamat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15216595)
Iron Chef XLVI: Cipher Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287314)
Iron Chef XLVII: Cold Iron Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291294)
Iron Chef XLVIII: Shadow Sun Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=297327)
Iron Chef XLIX: Thrall to Orcus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302487)
Iron Chef L: Corrupt Avenger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307823)

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-04, 10:45 PM

FAQ:
What's this even about? I'm glad you asked, actually... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15415117&postcount=1)

Is Dragon Compendium Allowed? Yes (as well as its Errata), but individual issues of Dragon Magazine are not.

What about 3.0 materials? 3.0 materials, whether online or in printed form, are allowed unless they've been officially updated to a 3.5 edition.

Are Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, or Kingdoms of Kalamar allowable sources? The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party). Materials from Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, and Kingdoms of Kalamar are considered 3rd party for purposes of this contest, and are therefore not allowed.

What about online sources in general? If the online source is a) published by WotC, and b) not replaced by an updated version at a later time, it is eligible. Use it, link it.

Where's the line drawn with "acceptable/unacceptable" for Unearthed Arcana? This will likely vary a bit from Chairman to Chairman. Item Familiars and Gestalt have always been verboten, since before IC migrated to GitP; don't expect that to change. Flaws have similarly always been noted as warranting a deduction; while I am Chairman, I'm extending that to Traits, though they warrant 1/2 the penalty in Elegance that a Flaw would because they're roughly 1/2 as useful. Alternate spell systems, alternate skill systems and alternate crafting rules all create an uneven playing field, and as such, will be disallowed for as long as I am Chairman. Bloodlines are ripe for abuse, and will be strongly discouraged as long as I am Chairman. Note that judges are allowed to look askance at any use of Unearthed Arcana not specifically mentioned above, at their discretion, and otherwise penalize Elegance according to their preference.

What, exactly, does the ban on Leadership mean? As folks have started to try to work around the edges of this one, I'm forced to spell it out more plainly. No Leadership, Draconic Cohort, or Feats that grant a similar ability are allowed EXCEPT Wild Cohort while Kuulvheysoon is chairman. Any PrC you choose with Leadership or a Leadership-analog has that ability entirely ignored for this contest, as it may neither be used nor traded away via any means whatsoever.

What's the minimum score in a category? Assuming an entry is legal, the minimum score in any category is 1. If a judge is convinced that an entry is illegal by the RAW, the judge may give a 0 or decline to score a given entry. Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.

What about the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (kukri) feat? Kukris are martial weapons in 3.5. Well, I'm glad you asked. Mere proficiency with the kukri will be enough to satisfy the requirement for the purposes of this competition.

What about the unclear bit about which deities I can worship? Consider the class open to any character who worships a non-good deity who would typically grant access to the Fire Domain and either the Destruction or Death Domain. Notice the requirement on worshiping a deity (so clerics and the like of an ideal are technically illegal, by RAW).

Gwachitallemall

2013-11-04, 10:49 PM

I'll need to decide in the morning whether I want to attempt to Judge, or be a contestant. I'm not exactly liking the ingredient right now.

fishyfishyfishy

2013-11-04, 10:53 PM

I've never entered before, but I love this prestige class. So I'm going to give this a shot.

Amphetryon

2013-11-04, 10:55 PM

I'll be competing this round.

Haluesen

2013-11-04, 11:01 PM

Hmm well I have always felt that this class looks pretty cool. But I have messed up the last few competitions in entering. So just count me as a "trying" to enter. Time willing, I shall. And inspiration of course.

KrimsonNekros

2013-11-04, 11:05 PM

WizardGirl74

2013-11-04, 11:06 PM

I too will wade into the waters here and create a build........

My first so be gentle!!

haha!

:)

Wizard Girl

Haluesen

2013-11-04, 11:12 PM

KrimsonNekros

2013-11-04, 11:14 PM

Actually it is mentioned above in the FAQ, all you need is proficiency with the kukri to enter the class. :smallsmile:

Whoops i completely missed that. Thank you very much.

Haluesen

2013-11-04, 11:24 PM

Heh glad to help! :smallbiggrin:

@WizardGirl: We shall try to be. :smalltongue: Welcome and have lots of fun with it!

The Gilded Duke

2013-11-04, 11:28 PM

Wow. I think I just saw the reason that this class was picked. That is hilarious.

Irk

2013-11-04, 11:34 PM

I may enter

relytdan

2013-11-04, 11:56 PM

I too will wade into the waters here and create a build........

My first so be gentle!!

haha!

:)

Wizard Girl

welcome and good luck

WizardGirl74

2013-11-05, 12:10 AM

Thank you!

Now to plan.......the fun begins....

:)

WG

thethird

2013-11-05, 12:37 AM

I'm competing this round again. :smallsmile: I might send a pm to the chairman for a small question on ruling.

Zaq

2013-11-05, 12:55 AM

Huh. I saw the SI and thought that it was a repeat. Guess I must have been thinking of . . . well, I don't want to flirt with speculation, but there's an obviously similar one in there.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-05, 12:56 AM

Huh. I saw the SI and thought that it was a repeat. Guess I must have been thinking of . . . well, I don't want to flirt with speculation, but there's an obviously similar one in there.

Clearly, you were thinking of Assassin.

WhamBamSam

2013-11-05, 01:15 AM

Huh... That's... something... We'll see if I come up with anything. If not, I'll judge.

Xerlith

2013-11-05, 06:17 AM

Signing up to competition o/

Gwachitallemall

2013-11-05, 06:17 AM

Alright, I got a concept, however it's not really pulling together for me, so I'll judge, this looks like a fun round. Please see below for my criteria.

Everyone starts at an average of 3 points.
Originality:
1. Common or Uncommon Race : Common -.5 Unexpected but others used -0. Uncommon and unused otherwise +.5
2. Common or Uncommon Base Class: Common -.5
Unexpected but others used -0. Uncommon and Unused otherwise +.5
3. Creative use of other prestige classes: No other prestige Classes +0. Creative prestige class +.5
4. Fluff and how Interesting the Build is: If the build has no unique mechanics, and uninteresting fluff, -1.
If the build has a unique mechanic, but uninteresting fluff, or vise versa, -.5 If the build has both interesting fluff, and a unique mechanic, +.0
5. Bonus Points: If the build uses something completely out of left field, +.5

Power:
1. Good offense, defense, and utility. No offense defense or utility in comparison to a stock build of your type -1. 1 of the 3 -.5, 2 of the 3 +.0, All 3 +.5
2. How well can you fare alone: Needs help to even stand a chance -.5, Can do well, but benefits from team mates +0, can take out an appropriate CR encounter by yourself +.5
3. Are you more powerful than the other contestants?: No -.5, Middle of the Pack +0, Yes +.5 (Will give bottom 25% No, middle 50 the MotP, and Top 25% Yes.)
4. Did you use items?: Yes: +0, No +.5

Elegance:
1. Any Multiclass Penalties, or More than 1 Dip: Multiclass and Multiple Dips: -.5 Multiclass or Multiple Dips: -0 Neither +.5
2. How simple is your build?: If you go into one class, then follow into next, never going back and forth, expect a full .5 here. If you do it once, expect a 0. If you do it more than once, expect -.5 Edit: Exception: After SI one change is allowed with still positive points. Initiatiors get 1 free change as well.
3. Do you qualify for all your non SI required Feats?: Yes: +.5, no -.5
4. How many sources do you use besides PHB and SI Source?: 4-7: +.5, 8+: +0, No sources -.5 Edit on scoring for sources.

UotSI:
1. Do you qualify for the Secret Ingredient? Yes: +.5
No -.5
2. Do you take the secret ingredient at a reasonable entry level: At the earliest level it can be taken +1, At the earliest level you can take it: +.5, within 3 levels +0, After 4 levels, -.5
3. Do you use the mechanics of the SI: All of them +.5, Some of them +0, None of them -.5
4. Does your build flow into the SI? Yes: +.5, No -.5 Let me explain this a little better. This will also include how many levels you take in the class. If you take less than 5 levels, even if it is well explained, expect a penalty of -.5 Because your build doesn't really flow into the SI, it uses a few pieces of it. After 5 levels, I'll look at what you would gain if you took more levels, and decide if you mark the penalty or the positive, or kind of wash out and get nothing here.

Earliest Entry Level for Black Flame Zealot: 6 (Yes, I did figure out a build that can get in at 6.)

Any questions? Please send them to me before the disputes start, so I can edit this and everyone has a clear idea of what my rubric is.

Also, Ponies? Sorry, but I did kind of borrow from your Rubric. I modified it, but I really liked how you scored everything.

Editted, check elegance and lack of additional penalties now.

yougi

2013-11-05, 06:57 AM

2. How simple is your build?: If you go into one class, then follow into next, never going back and forth, expect a full .5 here. If you do it once, expect a 0. If you do it more than once, expect -.5.

What about after finishing the SI? What about those for which it's usually a good idea (namely initiators).

Earliest Entry Level for Black Flame Zealot: 6 (Yes, I did figure out a build that can get in at 6).

Is it just me or is that what's expected?

That being said, most likely will be participating.

OMG PONIES

2013-11-05, 07:03 AM

I'm game for this round as well. And a question. For the purposes of qualification to enter the prestige class. Are we still required to take the feat Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Kukri), even if we have a class that will give us proficiency with a kukri, e.g. [REDACTED]?

Just a friendly reminder that naming base classes, etc. that might be used can be considered "speculation" and thus rouse the ire of others. An easy fix is provided above.

Also, Ponies? Sorry, but I did kind of borrow from your Rubric. I modified it, but I really liked how you scored everything.

No need to apologize--my ego considers it an homage.

Socratov

2013-11-05, 07:15 AM

Ok, I'll be trying to cook something up. I have an idea nestleling in my mind, inpsired thorugh books I recently read...

Gwachitallemall

2013-11-05, 07:22 AM

After SI i will give a one class change allowance (you can go back into one old class)
Initiatiors also get the same allowance without dropping their score. You get to do it once. So if you are an initiator and leaving the SI, you could go into two old classes. I will modify my criteria with this when I can.

Treme

2013-11-05, 07:25 AM

hmm I like it, no full idea yet but a question...

does table override text or text override table? Sacred flame is in the table at 7th level but text states 6th.

Gwachitallemall

2013-11-05, 07:35 AM

Text trumps table, specific overrides general.

Amphetryon

2013-11-05, 08:32 AM

Are we using the "Adaptation" section that opens Black Flame Zealot up to worship of any deity with Destruction, Death, and/or Fire Domains?

dysprosium

2013-11-05, 09:48 AM

An interesting ingredient. I'll have to see what I can come up with.

thethird

2013-11-05, 10:34 AM

snip

Ugh... the build I was thinking of would do terrible with that rubric...

Also know that I think about it all my entries on the IC have been humans, I love humans.

Are we using the "Adaptation" section that opens Black Flame Zealot up to worship of any deity with Destruction, Death, and/or Fire Domains?

Isn't the normal version less restrictive? I mean you can fluff the order of black flame pretty much any way you want.

Gwachitallemall

2013-11-05, 10:57 AM

Ugh... the build I was thinking of would do terrible with that rubric...
Also know that I think about it all my entries on the IC have been humans, I love humans.
Isn't the normal version less restrictive? I mean you can fluff the order of black flame pretty much any way you want.
I love humans too, However, humans aren't exactly common.

Deadline

2013-11-05, 11:06 AM

Well, this is certainly a surprise. What to do, what to do?

I'm thinking I'll cook. I need to mull over my ideas though.

Amphetryon

2013-11-05, 11:18 AM

Isn't the normal version less restrictive? I mean you can fluff the order of black flame pretty much any way you want.
The "normal" version specifies that they must worship the deity to whom the order is dedicated, without ever naming that deity. Without some sort of ruling from the Chairman, I can absolutely envision a judge penalizing as illegal any builds that don't use the deity that judge had in mind, or using a pantheon that judge hadn't envisioned.

Kesnit

2013-11-05, 11:25 AM

I've been away for a long while. However, I recently got access to my 3.5 books again, so I am back to judge.

Criteria
Originality
I tend to look at each entry based on their own merit, rather than compare each to another. If two entries use the same base class, but go about them differently, they won't lose Originality points from me. If the entries are similar, they will. Multiple builds that all use the same "trick" will be marked down.

Power
I stole this from a previous judge, but it sums up my point of view. "Power comes down to, quite simply, how the build would fare in a mid-power campaign." I am not an min-maxer, and I do not play with min-maxers. I'm used to thinking of PCs as they are seen in many of the D&D books - where characters of different types of classes work together to get the job done.

Elegance
I REALLY dislike dipping, which I define as taking 1-2 levels of a base class. (Since the SI does require 1 level of a Sneak Attack granting class, I will not penalize that specific dip. Other dips will be marked down.) I am a little more open to taking 1-2 levels of a PrC, especially in a competition like this where it is expected 10 levels of another PrC will be taken. However, excessive "dipping" of PrCs will also lose Elegance points.

On the flip side, I like a good story. A lot of "strange" class changes and combos can be "overlooked" if the contestant can provide a logical reason for them. Also, I am aware English is not everyone's first language, and if a contestant feels they were marked down because they could not adequately explain their concept, I am willing to reevaluate my analysis of their Elegance. (Note I did not say I will automatically increase their score, but if informed, I will give it a second look.)

As a heads-up, an extremely powerful PC will be marked down if, in my view, it would not work well as a member of a mixed party. (Mixed party defined as "not all PCs are pure casters.") That is not to say any Tier 1 PC will lose points, as they can be built in a way to help (rather than replace) the rest of the party.

Use of Secret Ingredient
The point of this competition is the Special Ingredient, so obviously it should be the focus. Competitors will lose points if they use less than 9 levels of the SI. (I'd prefer to see all 10, but sometimes, things just cannot be helped.)

Beyond that, how well the entire build fits in with the SI. If I feel the SI is tacked on only because it is the SI, I will mark down.

Amphetryon

2013-11-05, 11:35 AM

Welcome back into the fray, Kesnit. You probably already noticed, but I think some of the specifics for judges may have changed since last you joined us; this is not directed at any of your criteria, specifically. :smallsmile:

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-05, 11:40 AM

Are we using the "Adaptation" section that opens Black Flame Zealot up to worship of any deity with Destruction, Death, and/or Fire Domains?

The "normal" version specifies that they must worship the deity to whom the order is dedicated, without ever naming that deity. Without some sort of ruling from the Chairman, I can absolutely envision a judge penalizing as illegal any builds that don't use the deity that judge had in mind, or using a pantheon that judge hadn't envisioned.

An excellent point, Amphetryon.

Consider the class open to any character who worships a non-good deity and has access to the Fire Domain and either the Destruction or Death Domain, or whose (non-good) patron grants the Fire Domain. Notice the requirement on worshiping a deity (so clerics and the like of an ideal are technically illegal, by RAW).

EDIT: Tossed a note in the FAQs.

EDIT 2: Reworded the ruling to be more lenient.

Dark_Nohn

2013-11-05, 11:44 AM

I'm in, again, I suppose...

thethird

2013-11-05, 11:49 AM

Well then I won't go with my first idea. I will probably stat it though for an NPC down the line.

Eldonauran

2013-11-05, 11:56 AM

I have inspiration ... A few ingrediants are at my fingertips but how to mix them...

I'm in ... I might make two, just in case one is too over the top.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-05, 11:56 AM

Well then I won't go with my first idea. I will probably stat it though for an NPC down the line.

Note - I reworded the ruling slightly to allow greater flexibility.

Haluesen

2013-11-05, 12:00 PM

Hmm I'm starting to put together a nice idea, although this ruling does mean I need to either change my deity or the character's alignment. Guess which one sounds easier. :smallbiggrin:

I'm going for some great Originality with this one, but I shall be sure to look over this class for every minute detail. A lot of questions are usually asked about the SI, and I feel like I am usually doing it wrong by not having questions. :smalleek:

Gwachitallemall

2013-11-05, 12:12 PM

Chefs, if you are using a hard to find deity, please reference the source for the deity seperate. (This will also not count towards your source limit for my judging, being part of the SI requirements.)

thethird

2013-11-05, 12:39 PM

Amphetryon

2013-11-05, 12:45 PM

Gwachitallemall

2013-11-05, 12:55 PM

Source limit :smalleek:

What do you mean by source limit?

Check my criteria under elegance, it isnt a limit, as past 7 is the same penalty either way, but it does add up on points. More of a soft limit than a hard one.

OMG PONIES

2013-11-05, 12:58 PM

Another nitpicky question about the prerequisites: Black Flame Zealot specifies "ability to cast 2nd level spells." Is the use of the plural indicative that ability to cast a single 2nd level spell is not sufficient for qualification, assuming all other prerequisites are met?

Ah, yes, a perennial rules argument. Is two castings of Spell X enough to count as "spells," or is it just another casting of one "spell?"

Vaz

2013-11-05, 01:04 PM

Eldonauran

2013-11-05, 01:08 PM

Ah, yes, a perennial rules argument. Is two castings of Spell X enough to count as "spells," or is it just another casting of one "spell?"

I've always looked at that question and replied "As long as you have a spellslot of the given level (whether it is a bonus from high ability score and a 0 on your table), you can casts that level of spells. You can always get more spellslots other ways (ring of wizardry, higher casting stat, etc) and nitpicking over the plural of spell (spells) is transitory at best."

Either way, I am eager to hear the Chairman's response. It might play a role in what I have in mind.

thethird

2013-11-05, 01:36 PM

Check my criteria under elegance, it isnt a limit, as past 7 is the same penalty either way, but it does add up on points. More of a soft limit than a hard one.

Ugh... thanks. That is going to be complicated.

Gwachitallemall

2013-11-05, 01:39 PM

I already have my build. Quite happy with how it plans out, oddly enough. Still, so I was with Corrupt Avenger, and look how that turned out!

Quick question regarding that rubric Gwach;
taking multiple sources is fairly standard fair; just want to confirm that you're going to penalise twice for taking multiple sources; people who have many classes/dips are already penalised, often for taking multiclass penalties AND dips (which your rubric includes and makes note of)

The sources for stuff that comes from feats, spells (it's a spellcasting class after-all), are often all over the place as well. While I can understand that book hopping is a big part of judging, and making it easier on oneself, I hope I'm not overstepping my mark in asking whether you want to penalise this, rather than simply rewarding for simplicity? Elegance is extremely easy to lose points on as it is.

I didn't think of the problem of double penalization there, i am still considering on this count. I have a few options in my head, one is start elegance half a point higher, one where removing the penalty, one where adding another bonus, however all of these either make the maximum above 5 or make the minimum above one, which isn't very elegant. Edit: I have decided, removed the penalty for sources, lowered no sources penalty and included it in the source are, as well as increased the amount of sources you could have for the bonus.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-05, 02:44 PM

Another nitpicky question about the prerequisites: Black Flame Zealot specifies "ability to cast 2nd level spells." Is the use of the plural indicative that ability to cast a single 2nd level spell is not sufficient for qualification, assuming all other prerequisites are met?

Shame on you for calling it out on me, but doing nothing for Geomancer.:smalltongue:

But yeah, I'd rule that it applies to slots, not the number of spells that you can access.

TiaC

2013-11-05, 02:45 PM

I think I'll give this a try.

Vaz

2013-11-05, 02:47 PM

Shame on you for calling it out on me, but doing nothing for Geomancer.:smalltongue:

But yeah, I'd rule that it applies to slots, not the number of spells that you can access.

Just to clarify, to enter into the PrC, you must have 2 or more 2nd level spell slots/day?

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-05, 02:53 PM

Just to clarify, to enter into the PrC, you must have 2 or more 2nd level spell slots/day?

No, more of a grammatical issue. If you can cast more than 1 2nd level spell (be it the same day or not), you're fine. So you cannot enter if you've been imbued with a divine spell (as the Imbue with Spell Ability spell) that has only a single usage. If you can naturally cast 2nd level spell(s), you're good to go.

OMG PONIES

2013-11-05, 03:37 PM

No, more of a grammatical issue. If you can cast more than 1 2nd level spell (be it the same day or not), you're fine. So you cannot enter if you've been imbued with a divine spell (as the Imbue with Spell Ability spell) that has only a single usage. If you can naturally cast 2nd level spell(s), you're good to go.

Including if you only know and can cast 1 spell/day of the appropriate level?

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-05, 03:42 PM

Including if you only know and can cast 1 spell/day of the appropriate level?

Indeed - let's keep this open.

You must be able to cast at least 1 2nd level spell per day naturally. And by naturally, I mean in a vacuum (no items, no cohorts or the like).

dysprosium

2013-11-05, 03:45 PM

Indeed - let's keep this open.

You must be able to cast at least 1 2nd level spell per day naturally. And by naturally, I mean in a vacuum (no items, no cohorts or the like).

Now I wonder how many build fluffs will include either space travel or being miniaturized in a modern world cleaning machine . . .

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-05, 03:58 PM

What about the unclear bit about which deities I can worship? Consider the class open to any character who worships a non-good deity and has access to the Fire Domain and either the Destruction or Death Domain, or whose (non-good) patron grants the Fire Domain. A patron deity is the source of your divine power, if you do not receive domains. Notice the requirement on worshiping a deity (so clerics and the like of an ideal are technically illegal, by RAW).

Judges, are these terms clear enough for you to make your judgments on?

Competitors, can you work within these limits?

Gwachitallemall

2013-11-05, 04:03 PM

So, if they don't have a non-good deity with fire domain, and 1 of the following; death, destruction. Mark off points. Seems simple enough.

On another note, (can someone get me a list of all those deities?)

Haluesen

2013-11-05, 04:09 PM

I think I can work within this. :smallbiggrin: Doesn't change anything about my current plans.

GreenSerpent

2013-11-05, 04:17 PM

Here we are. Format given below:

Name (alignment, favoured weapon); domains; source

Garyx (CE, sickle); Chaos, Destruction, Dragon, Evil, Fire, Renewal; Draconomicon
Glautru (N, longsword); Death, Destiny, Fire, Healing; Races of Destiny
Joramy (N, quarterstaff); Competition, Destruction, Fire, Wrath, War; Complete Divine
Kaelthiere (NE, spear); Destruction, Evil, Fire, War; Complete Divine
Kithin (N, spear); Animal, Death, Fire, Plant; Races of the Wild
Kossuth (N/LN, spiked chain); Destruction, Fire, Renewal, Wrath, Suffering; FRCS
Pyremius (NE, longsword); Destruction, Evil, Fire, Wrath; Complete Divine
Talos (CE, longsword/shortspear/spear); Chaos, Destruction, Evil, Fire, Wrath, Storm; FRCS

Gwachitallemall

2013-11-05, 04:30 PM

I had found all but two, thank you. That is a pretty strict requirement.

Deadline

2013-11-05, 04:31 PM

Here we are. Format given below:

There are more than that. Not sure if I'm allowed to say more. And I'm not sure we should be listing them publicly instead of PMing them to the judge who requested it. After all, we should be avoiding speculation.

GreenSerpent

2013-11-05, 04:37 PM

Amphetryon

2013-11-05, 04:38 PM

There are more than that. Not sure if I'm allowed to say more. And I'm not sure we should be listing them publicly instead of PMing them to the judge who requested it. After all, we should be avoiding speculation.

All of the above is true.

ETA:
Personally I believe that they should be available for people here, rather than needing to go through excessive book-diving.

This is a build competition after all, not hunt-the-god. And if there are more then please inform me of who they are.This is why contestants are strongly encouraged to provide a source list. Such a list can let the judges know quickly and easily which books need to be perused for each build, without tipping anyone's hand before the reveal.

GreenSerpent

2013-11-05, 04:49 PM

All of the above is true.

ETA: This is why contestants are strongly encouraged to provide a source list. Such a list can let the judges know quickly and easily which books need to be perused for each build, without tipping anyone's hand before the reveal.

I didn't mean for the judges, I meant for finding the gods in the first place. This is intended to assist the competitors by saving time sifting through books to find the gods with the rather specific conditions of Domains = Fire AND Death OR Destruction.

fishyfishyfishy

2013-11-05, 04:54 PM

An excellent point, Amphetryon.

Consider the class open to any character who worships a non-good deity and has access to the Fire Domain and either the Destruction or Death Domain, or whose (non-good) patron grants the Fire Domain. Notice the requirement on worshiping a deity (so clerics and the like of an ideal are technically illegal, by RAW).

EDIT: Tossed a note in the FAQs.

EDIT 2: Reworded the ruling to be more lenient.

I'm not sure what it looked like before you made it more lenient, but this still screws up several ideas I had...

Back to the drawing board I suppose.

I would like a clarification please. You say "any character who worships a non-good deity and has access to the Fire Domain and either the Destruction or Death Domain", does this mean the character must have access to the domains in question or only the deity must have the domains? If it's the character...well that limits us to Cleric only as the divine casting class.

Edit: Never mind, the FAQ post is more clear about this.

OMG PONIES

2013-11-05, 04:54 PM

Consider the class open to any character who worships a non-good deity and has access to the Fire Domain and either the Destruction or Death Domain, or whose (non-good) patron grants the Fire Domain. A patron deity is the source of your divine power, if you do not receive domains. Notice the requirement on worshiping a deity (so clerics and the like of an ideal are technically illegal, by RAW).

What (if anything) is the difference between a deity and a patron as listed above? If our power comes from a deity, there are two required domains (Fire and either Destruction/Death). If we have a patron, they need only grant the Fire Domain as per the above. I don't know if it's contradictory or redundant, but it made me go :smallconfused:.

There are more than that. Not sure if I'm allowed to say more. And I'm not sure we should be listing them publicly instead of PMing them to the judge who requested it. After all, we should be avoiding speculation.

I didn't mean for the judges, I meant for finding the gods in the first place. This is intended to assist the competitors by saving time sifting through books to find the gods with the rather specific conditions of Domains = Fire AND Death OR Destruction.

When we start assisting the competitors, we begin to tread on a slippery slope. It starts with gods, but then people might be tossing in lists of suitable base classes/PrCs, helpful spells, or useful feats. While the competition's about building, it's still a competition. Where does it end, free cheese fries to assist the competitors?

If so, I'll be entering this round :smallbiggrin:.

Treme

2013-11-05, 04:56 PM

I PM'd Kuulvheysoon earlier to clarify the deity bit and he responded thus:

No, it's more along the lines of
Worship a non-good deity and have the Fire+Destruction domains
Worship a non-good deity and have the Fire+Death domains
Worship a non-good deity who could grant the Fire domain

So the scope is a little more open I think? He even said Obad-hai, using the PHB as an example, qualifies

thethird

2013-11-05, 04:58 PM

On entities that grant spells that with access to the fire domain and at least one of the death or destuction domains I can think of two more at the top of my head.

GreenSerpent

2013-11-05, 04:59 PM

I PM'd Kuulvheysoon earlier to clarify the deity bit and he responded thus:

So the scope is a little more open I think? He even said Obad-hai, using the PHB as an example, qualifies

Only 4 more from my various searches then.

OMG PONIES

2013-11-05, 05:01 PM

I PM'd Kuulvheysoon earlier to clarify the deity bit and he responded thus:

No, it's more along the lines of
•Worship a non-good deity and have the Fire+Destruction domains
•Worship a non-good deity and have the Fire+Death domains
•Worship a non-good deity who could grant the Fire domain

So the scope is a little more open I think? He even said Obad-hai, using the PHB as an example, qualifies

Hmm, it seems like we've got a redundancy in there. Consider a cleric who worships Obad-Hai and selects Plant and Animal as her domains. She doesn't meet either of the first two bullet points, but since she meets the third is she still good? If so, why the need for the first two bullet points in the first place? Are we saying that characters with domains must have fire and one of either Death/Destruction, but that characters without domains need not meet that requirement?

It gets a little sketchy for me, as it sounds like we're looping Adaptation info into the Requirements, when PrCs that require access to a specific domain often spell it out within the Requirements themselves (as with the Radiant Servant of Pelor).

Treme

2013-11-05, 05:09 PM

i read it as your deity must have fire in his list and if you do take fire you must take either death or destruction as well.

admittedly, now i type it, it does seem a little strange! :smallconfused:

GreenSerpent

2013-11-05, 05:11 PM

Perhaps you could define it as follows:

Must worship a non-good deity who grants the Fire domain.
If they choose domains as a Cleric, they must choose any of the following domain combinations granted by their god:

Fire and Destruction domains
Fire and Death domains
Fire domain

EDIT: The "choose domains as a Cleric" bit is to avoid problems with granted domains such as Divine Oracle granting the Oracle domain.

Fable Wright

2013-11-05, 05:17 PM

Judges, are these terms clear enough for you to make your judgments on?

Competitors, can you work within these limits?

I have a question about the 'patron'. What about beings of ambiguous divinity? Things like Archdevils, Demon Lords, etc. that grant spells to clerics but aren't gods?

123456789blaaa

2013-11-05, 05:20 PM

This is the first time in IC history when the past comps list was so big it had to be spoilerd. I...I think I have a tear in my eye. We've come so far!

Why'd ya pick this PRC Kuulv?

Socratov

2013-11-05, 05:32 PM

Ehm... I may have found the wrong Black Flame Zealot in the Wrong Complete Divine, but in the requirements section I see no worshipping of a deity. In the text it says the organization worships the deity, but in the requirements and classfeatures it doesn't.

Just to be clear here's the relevant part:

Requirements
To Qualify to become a black flame zealot, a character must fullfill all the following criteria:
Alignment: Any nongood
Skills: Hide 8 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks.
Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (kukri), Iron Will.
Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells.
Special: Sneak attack damage +1d6

Amphetryon

2013-11-05, 05:34 PM

Vaz

2013-11-05, 05:37 PM

Gwachitallemall

2013-11-05, 05:38 PM

I am very.. confused, now. So if you can get domains, you have to have fire, and death or destruction. If you can't get domains, your deity has to have fire domain. That isn't a very fair setup for the domain casters..

Amphetryon

2013-11-05, 05:38 PM

A bit like requiring Exotic Weapon Proficiency for a Martial weapon?

Pretty clearly a holdover from 3.0, when Kukri were Exotic. At least one designer apparently missed a memo.

thethird

2013-11-05, 05:49 PM

What I am reading is this:

You can worship Banjo the Clown (http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Banjo_the_Clown) and enter the PrC if somehow you get access to fire and destruction/death. That is because Banjo doesn't gran the fire domain.

If somehow you:

a) Worship a deity that grants the fire domain

b) Bribe Banjo into granting the fire domain

then you are cool and can enter the prc without need for the domains.

nedz

2013-11-05, 05:52 PM

A bit like requiring Exotic Weapon Proficiency for a Martial weapon?

Which is illegal by RAW. You can only take EWP for an exotic weapon.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency [General]
Choose a type of exotic weapon. You understand how to use that type of exotic weapon in combat.

Yes it is a known dysfunction. :smallamused:

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-05, 05:52 PM

I PM'd Kuulvheysoon earlier to clarify the deity bit and he responded thus:

So the scope is a little more open I think? He even said Obad-hai, using the PHB as an example, qualifies

Yea, tat was my mistake. I have a homebrewed pantheon that has a god who shares a remarkable resemblance to Obad-Hai, except for the fact that he also has the (natural progression of) Death in his portfolio.

As for requirements... I was trying to spell out that either you worship a non-good god and have the Fire and Death/Destruction Domain, OR have a divine patron who could grant the Fire Domain (opening it up to non-clerics).

It would probably just be easier to condense it into a single prerequisite, however, detailing that your (non-good) god be able to grant you the Fire and Death/Destruction domains. I think that that fulfills the RAI and still leaves room for shenanigans. Opinions?

This is the first time in IC history when the past comps list was so big it had to be spoilered. I...I think I have a tear in my eye. We've come so far!

Why'd ya pick this PRC Kuulv?
This one was a nice parallel to last time: Non-good instead of non-evil, the Sneak rather then the Fighter, and obeying something greater (the Order of the Black Flame) rather than pursuing your own personal vendetta.

That, and I wanted this for quite a long while.:smallcool:

Kesnit

2013-11-05, 05:57 PM

It would probably just be easier to condense it into a single prerequisite, however, detailing that your (non-good) god be able to grant you the Fire and Death/Destruction domains. I think that that fulfills the RAI and still leaves room for shenanigans. Opinions?

That works for me. That's how I read it at first. Then all the discussion about it made my head spin! :smallbiggrin:

And just to make sure I am not (still) confused, the deity must:
1) be non-good
2) have the Fire Domain, and
3) have either Death or Destruction Domain

Right?

OMG PONIES

2013-11-05, 05:57 PM

It would probably just be easier to condense it into a single prerequisite, however, detailing that your (non-good) god be able to grant you the Fire and Death/Destruction domains. I think that that fulfills the RAI and still leaves room for shenanigans. Opinions?

What about entries whose deity does not grant the Fire, Death, or Destruction domains, yet the character finds other ways of acquiring said domains? :smallamused: No dice? This also rules out gods who can grant only one of the three, correct? Your god has to grant two of the above (one of which must be fire)?

Eldonauran

2013-11-05, 06:07 PM

Hmm, I thought the first explanation was pretty straight forward. Apparently not...

Aside from that, I don't think YOU have to have ANY domains. It is your god/patron that has to have those domains.

thethird

2013-11-05, 06:10 PM

Yeah my first idea is not flying anymore...

On another hand I would prefer switching the word god for patron.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-05, 06:50 PM

What about entries whose deity does not grant the Fire, Death, or Destruction domains, yet the character finds other ways of acquiring said domains? :smallamused: No dice? This also rules out gods who can grant only one of the three, correct? Your god has to grant two of the above (one of which must be fire)?

See, that's where I'm having trouble. I'm trying to word it so that that's still possible (as implied by me still trying to allow shenanigans). Maybe state that your god (sorry, thethird, but it does specifically state Deity that you worship) must typically grant the Fire and Death/Destruction domains. That work for everyone?

(Rhetorical question. It's phrased a bit wonky, but leaves some room for... creative interpretations. And if this competition isn't about creativity, then what is is about?)

thethird

2013-11-05, 06:56 PM

maybe that if your deity does not grant said domains you need some way of accessing them yourself?

Dusk Eclipse

2013-11-05, 06:59 PM

So just to be clear, Fire Domain is a must while Death/Destruction are optional?

Deadline

2013-11-05, 07:26 PM

Mr. Chairman, it was mentioned earlier, but the SI requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kukri, and the Kukri is a Martial Weapon. Does that mean the dishes need to set a feat on fire, or do the dishes only need to be proficient with a Kukri?

Also, I've got two ideas, and I like them both. Naturally, having so much time to cook will result in terrible dishes, and I'm doomed to place poorly in this round. I love it. :smallcool:

Dusk Eclipse

2013-11-05, 07:27 PM

Mr. Chairman, it was mentioned earlier, but the SI requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kukri, and the Kukri is a Martial Weapon. Does that mean the SI needs to burn a feat, or do the dishes only need to be proficient with a Kukri?

It is in this competition's FAQs

FAQ:
What's this even about? I'm glad you asked, actually... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15415117&postcount=1)

Is Dragon Compendium Allowed? Yes (as well as its Errata), but individual issues of Dragon Magazine are not.

What about 3.0 materials? 3.0 materials, whether online or in printed form, are allowed unless they've been officially updated to a 3.5 edition.

Are Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, or Kingdoms of Kalamar allowable sources? The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party). Materials from Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, and Kingdoms of Kalamar are considered 3rd party for purposes of this contest, and are therefore not allowed.

What about online sources in general? If the online source is a) published by WotC, and b) not replaced by an updated version at a later time, it is eligible. Use it, link it.

Where's the line drawn with "acceptable/unacceptable" for Unearthed Arcana? This will likely vary a bit from Chairman to Chairman. Item Familiars and Gestalt have always been verboten, since before IC migrated to GitP; don't expect that to change. Flaws have similarly always been noted as warranting a deduction; while I am Chairman, I'm extending that to Traits, though they warrant 1/2 the penalty in Elegance that a Flaw would because they're roughly 1/2 as useful. Alternate spell systems, alternate skill systems and alternate crafting rules all create an uneven playing field, and as such, will be disallowed for as long as I am Chairman. Bloodlines are ripe for abuse, and will be strongly discouraged as long as I am Chairman. Note that judges are allowed to look askance at any use of Unearthed Arcana not specifically mentioned above, at their discretion, and otherwise penalize Elegance according to their preference.

What, exactly, does the ban on Leadership mean? As folks have started to try to work around the edges of this one, I'm forced to spell it out more plainly. No Leadership, Draconic Cohort, or Feats that grant a similar ability are allowed EXCEPT Wild Cohort while Kuulvheysoon is chairman. Any PrC you choose with Leadership or a Leadership-analog has that ability entirely ignored for this contest, as it may neither be used nor traded away via any means whatsoever.

What's the minimum score in a category? Assuming an entry is legal, the minimum score in any category is 1. If a judge is convinced that an entry is illegal by the RAW, the judge may give a 0 or decline to score a given entry. Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.

What about the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (kukri) feat? Kukris are martial weapons in 3.5. Well, I'm glad you asked. Mere proficiency with the kukri will be enough to satisfy the requirement for the purposes of this competition.

What about the unclear bit about which deities I can worship? Consider the class open to any character who worships a non-good deity and has access to the Fire Domain and either the Destruction or Death Domain, or whose (non-good) patron grants the Fire Domain. A patron deity is the source of your divine power if you do not receive domains. Notice the requirement on worshiping a deity (so clerics and the like of an ideal are technically illegal, by RAW).

Kesnit

2013-11-05, 07:31 PM

So just to be clear, Fire Domain is a must while Death/Destruction are optional?

As I understand it, Fire is a must, and the deity must have access to either Death or Destruction. A deity that has Fire, but neither Death or Destruction is not valid.

Deadline

2013-11-05, 07:33 PM

*points to self* The derp is strong with this one. Thanks for pointing that out Dusk Eclipse. :smallbiggrin:

Gwachitallemall

2013-11-05, 07:35 PM

Giving the new judge a trial by fire, right?

KrimsonNekros

2013-11-05, 07:43 PM

All I know is I'm set regardless of how this gets set thanks to (redacted).

Kesnit

2013-11-05, 07:48 PM

All I know is I'm set regardless of how this gets set thanks to (redacted).

You may not be. You do know that REDACTED does not allow REDACTED unless REDACTED.

:smallbiggrin:

Xerlith

2013-11-05, 07:50 PM

Quick question - are adaptations of different PrCs allowed? How does it sit with Elegance?

Eldonauran

2013-11-05, 08:00 PM

Quick question - are adaptations of different PrCs allowed? How does it sit with Elegance?

:smalleek: Oh noes, someone else is following my train of thought.

:smallamused: Actually, I have the same question. Many of the PrC in REDACTED have adaptations that could be ... interesting.

Fable Wright

2013-11-05, 08:45 PM

Really, though, we're going to have at least 50% of the builds using [REDACTED] to go with the ingredient's [REDACTED]. I think I've found a way to make the fluff for [REDACTED] and [REDACTED] work together, though, without adaptations.

Vaz

2013-11-05, 09:23 PM

Anyone want a spare feat? Got one floating around that I'm trying to think of an original use for, and Toughness just ain't cutting it this time, and I've already got Skill Focus (Speak Language).

Rama

2013-11-05, 09:37 PM

Anyone want a spare feat? Got one floating around that I'm trying to think of an original use for, and Toughness just ain't cutting it this time, and I've already got Skill Focus (Speak Language).

I'll trade you six skill points and an armor proficiency for your feat...

Gwachitallemall

2013-11-05, 09:56 PM

No trading. This isn't pokemon.

If I see a pokemon reference.. I'll deduct .1 points from your build and add them to the orphan's fund.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-05, 10:00 PM

No trading. This isn't pokemon.

If I see a pokemon reference.. I'll deduct .1 points from your build and add them to the orphan's fund.

But, I've gotta Catch 'em All before I can release them to you judges. Does that mean a blanket penalty?

Gwachitallemall

2013-11-05, 10:02 PM

But, I've gotta Catch 'em All before I can release them to you judges. Does that mean a blanket penalty?

That means the orphan fund may win this challenge.

yougi

2013-11-05, 10:35 PM

No trading. This isn't pokemon.

If I see a pokemon reference.. I'll deduct .1 points from your build and add them to the orphan's fund.

Man, you're ruining my ideas! I wanted to make a lizardman who activated Sacred Flame on a tail attack!

Socratov

2013-11-06, 02:28 AM

Read the paragraph after the page break, which is still within the "Requirements" heading.

ah, I was confused by the table breaking the section. Thank you for clarifying

Xerlith

2013-11-06, 09:16 AM

Quick question - are adaptations of different PrCs allowed? How does it sit with Elegance?

Just bumping my question :smallbiggrin:

Gwachitallemall

2013-11-06, 10:03 AM

Well, it depends on the chairmans ruling, but I don't see a problem with it as long as it isn't a big stretch. And is tied into your fluff as well.

Vaz

2013-11-06, 10:03 AM

That depends on the actual judge. However, be careful of posting questions like that, it may tip the hand to point out to the judges which is yours, if at the end of the reveal there is only one entry which uses an adaptation not from Black Flame Zealot.

For example, look at Arcane Swordsage; how exactly do you rule that to work? It is an Adaptation, but not one actively statted out. However, the unarmed swordsage has a fairly obvious progression which is noted within the monk class already, so it's not too hard to include; however it's still not "RAW"; I do think that it was used a fair bit within the Shadow Sun Ninja competition, but I cannot remember if anyone was marked down by using it.

The adaptation was specifically brought to light here as the classes requires you to be dedicated to the god to even start taking levels in the class, without stating who that god was.

"The character must worship the deity to whom the order is dedicated, and the character must slay an enemy of the faith for no other reason than to join the Order of the Black Flame."

The adaptation section however, allowed you to adapt the class to the background of the setting you are in. For my purpose, I think I'd start to allow "makes sense" adaptations as if I was running a game; in a Zinc Saucier competition, I didn't mark a Mind Flayer class (from SS) using Psionic Progression in place of SLA's, that had the same result as a Psionic Mind Flayer monster at the end result. Looking back, I even said I'd have allowed it in a game, and should rather have penalised it slightly for elegance by it possibly not being to every DM's cup of tea.

Hence, if it makes sense, and isn't more powerful (massively) than the base class would be without the adaptation, I'd consider allowing it (hence the Unarmed Swordsage).

However, if I was facing against an Arcane Swordsage, I'd seriously reconsider.

Note that I used the Arcane Swordsage as the example specifically because it was Arcane, rather than Divine, in the hope of keeping speculation to a minimum.

____

in other news, I've been forced down the route of [Redacted] due to a complete error in eyesight function. Grargh.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-06, 10:55 AM

Vaz pretty much got it in one. If it's mainly a fluff adaptation, the judges are usually pretty cool about it (eg. for my Geomancer build, I fluffed Duskblades as an unnamed undersea racial tradition instead of an elven one), but if it's something major (like the aforementioned Arcane Swordsage), then it will reek of cheese.

Xerlith, as long as it fits within the constraints given by the class and is reasonable, the judges likely won't have a problem with it.

(Note - I am not guaranteeing anything).

Gwachitallemall

2013-11-06, 10:58 AM

Yes, my interpretation Was on fluff only, mechanics? Nope, i don't think so.

thethird

2013-11-06, 12:35 PM

So I found (redacted) and cried a little inside.

Amphetryon

2013-11-06, 12:44 PM

dysprosium

2013-11-06, 02:48 PM

I definitely have something cooking for this one.

And I found this great little prestige class to use -- Black Flame Zealot.

Haluesen

2013-11-06, 02:51 PM

I definitely have something cooking for this one.

And I found this great little prestige class to use -- Black Flame Zealot.

But...but I wanted to use that! :smalleek:

Welp, back to thinking up concepts again. :smalltongue: I gotta be more original.

yougi

2013-11-06, 03:41 PM

And I found this great little prestige class to use -- Black Flame Zealot.

Really, though, we're going to have at least 50% of the builds using [REDACTED] to go with the ingredient's [REDACTED]. I think I've found a way to make the fluff for [REDACTED] and [REDACTED] work together, though, without adaptations.
Dagnabbit, that's my build. *Goes back to the drawing board.*

Is it just me, or do these two jokes come up every single competition?

dysprosium

2013-11-06, 03:45 PM

They do.

And I try to be the first one to bring them up. :smallwink:

Gwachitallemall

2013-11-06, 03:59 PM

And another .1 poimts to the orphan fund for everyone using the same class, BFZ.

Vaz

2013-11-06, 04:00 PM

Whoo! No penalties for me!

Deadline

2013-11-06, 04:44 PM

Whoo! No penalties for me!

Dangit! And here I was thinking I'd be original and not use BFZ... :smallbiggrin:

nedz

2013-11-06, 04:50 PM

I was going to fake BFZ with Truenamer anyway, that class can do anything.

Socratov

2013-11-06, 05:02 PM

dude, monk+BFZ is so op...

Amphetryon

2013-11-06, 05:02 PM

I was going to fake BFZ with Truenamer anyway, that class can do anything.

First glance turned that into a Dragonball Z reference. I'm. . . not really sure how that happened.

KrimsonNekros

2013-11-06, 05:07 PM

They do.

And I try to be the first one to bring them up. :smallwink:

No sense breaking tradition!

Gwachitallemall

2013-11-06, 05:29 PM

dude, monk+BFZ is so op...

Krillen references also lose brownie points.

OMG PONIES

2013-11-06, 05:34 PM

:smallannoyed: Even joke references to classes can be viewed as speculation. And don't knock Truenamer entry :smallfurious:! I took gold with it in the Divine Crusader round. :smallcool:

There's no such thing as too many smilies.

nedz

2013-11-06, 06:23 PM

OMG PONIES

2013-11-06, 09:45 PM

Apologies, was just meant as some light hearted banter.

As was my response. Guess I should have bluetexted it. Mea culpa.

Macabaret

2013-11-06, 11:42 PM

Feilith

2013-11-07, 01:08 AM

Is there a final ruling on the Deity? It's been really confusing. Kuv?

KrimsonNekros

2013-11-07, 02:58 AM

Is there a final ruling on the Deity? It's been really confusing. Kuv?

I'm with Felith in this. Every time I get everything fluffed out the ruling changes. It would be nice to see a final verdict.

Feytalist

2013-11-07, 03:38 AM

Whoops I missed this one at first. Interesting. I actually have a Black Flame Zealot build somewhere, maybe I can tweak it.

Whoa it's been like 20 competitions since I entered.

I'd like to confuse the deity debacle even more, if I may. Is it really so bad if you stat up your own deity? The religion bit is basically just fluff anyway, and we could come away with some interesting ideas, which is part of what this competition is about, for me. I love me some backstory. Remember Vorpal Tribble's Little Starry-Eyes in Green Star Adept? That thing was basically a novella. (It also won.)

Regardless, I'll follow the chairman's decision. I'd just hate to stifle creativity :smallsmile:

OMG PONIES

2013-11-07, 07:43 AM

Is there a final ruling on the Deity? It's been really confusing. Kuv?

I'm with Felith in this. Every time I get everything fluffed out the ruling changes. It would be nice to see a final verdict.

It sounds like the Chairman narrowed the ruling down to one sentence:

It would probably just be easier to condense it into a single prerequisite, however, detailing that your (non-good) god be able to grant you the Fire and Death/Destruction domains. I think that that fulfills the RAI and still leaves room for shenanigans. Opinions?

relytdan

2013-11-07, 07:54 AM

It sounds like the Chairman narrowed the ruling down to one sentence:

detailing that your (non-good) god be able to grant you the Fire and Death/Destruction domains

yes he did, so does the entry- Adaptation ... to open the prestige class to any character with access to the Fire and Destruction (or Death) domains

Amphetryon

2013-11-07, 08:01 AM

The Viscount

2013-11-07, 10:32 AM

Count me in for this one. Here's an SI I can finally work with.

Amphetryon

2013-11-07, 02:39 PM

Character submitted. Chairman, at your convenience, please confirm receipt. Thanks.

WizardGirl74

2013-11-07, 04:21 PM

Just a bit more tweaking to the character story then I shall be submitting my first IC entry!

WG

Thrawn183

2013-11-07, 07:56 PM

Does IC allow humorous contributions?

nedz

2013-11-07, 08:02 PM

Does IC allow humorous contributions?

I hope so.

Eldonauran

2013-11-07, 10:33 PM

I'm going to have to withdraw. No time for a proper build. Good luck everyone!

KrimsonNekros

2013-11-08, 12:40 AM

I just finished my build so now it's just writing up the fluff and details.

The Viscount

2013-11-08, 02:11 AM

Does IC allow humorous contributions?

It most certainly does. We've had humorous contributions do very well, in fact, as Baelfire from Thrall of Orcus can attest. A few other ones that stand out in my memory are Pumpkinhead from Shadowdancer, SGACSPD from Cryokineticist, Santa Claus from Nightsong Infiltrator, and to a lesser extent my own Bjorn Ioreksen from Geomancer. Obviously humor does not always win you a place, as I can attest to with the (deservedly) rather poor standing of Tacgnol in Shadowblade.

OMG PONIES

2013-11-08, 12:51 PM

Does IC allow humorous contributions?

Allow? We practically encourage it. In other news, I think I just stumbled into my build!

Dusk Eclipse

2013-11-08, 12:52 PM

Gazebo Jones, Spoons McGee.... yeah you could say humorous builds tend to do good round here :smallwink:

The Viscount

2013-11-08, 03:08 PM

How could I forget those two?:smallredface:

Tim Proctor

2013-11-08, 04:47 PM

Alright I submitted mine. Humor in builds is good.

On a side note to keep a conversation going, I'd like to talk about judging style, and how people judge. I recently judged on the Heroic Iron Chef competition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16376124&postcount=116) and wanted some feedback on judging style before I jump into this or the Zinc competitions.

What are judge's tips for being a good judge, pet peeves, etc. What do player's find are the traits of good judges and pet peeves? I know last time there was a bit of a hiccup with some of the judging style.

GreenSerpent

2013-11-08, 05:24 PM

... oh my god, this idea. It's crazy but it just might work.

Though I fully expect to get slapped silly for trying it.

Gwachitallemall

2013-11-09, 07:28 AM

Since this is my first time judging I fully expect to have disputes pop up, I will be following my rubric fully, it is possible the next time that I will update my rubric to take into account things I saw this time.

Piggy Knowles

2013-11-09, 07:45 AM

I've judged several times, and still get disputes. I wouldn't sweat it - it's part of the process.

Treme

2013-11-09, 01:37 PM

I have got to the end of my build, made it all fit and work well and then promptly fallen out of love with the whole thing :/

plenty of time, back to the drawing board :smallannoyed:

The Viscount

2013-11-09, 02:44 PM

GreenSerpent

2013-11-10, 09:04 AM

Muggins

2013-11-10, 11:51 AM

I think I'm gonna end up just doing this character for fun and not caring too much about the points.
Points? I don't know what you're talking about. :smallwink:

I'm in, by the way.

GreenSerpent

2013-11-10, 12:18 PM

Points? I don't know what you're talking about. :smallwink:

I'm in, by the way.

They're those things I'm probably not gonna get too many of.

On the plus side, I feel confident about a possible HM nomination.

Haluesen

2013-11-10, 03:05 PM

Aaaargh. I'm hitting a major problem. I have a really quite amusing idea, but I can't make it work mechanically. It doesn't work with Class #1, but using Class #2 will be even trickier...

I think I'm gonna end up just doing this character for fun and not caring too much about the points.

I tend not to care too much about the scoring and just make an interesting idea I find fun. :smallsmile: If it scores well, then bonus. It's not like we lose anything by trying.

So I have the charts done already, and would have all the build info completed if not for other plans this weekend. So that is gonna have to be wrapped up this week, but I know I have the time. :smalltongue: But I like what I got here; I'm hoping just for high points in UotSI.

KrimsonNekros

2013-11-10, 07:54 PM

I tend not to care too much about the scoring and just make an interesting idea I find fun. :smallsmile: If it scores well, then bonus. It's not like we lose anything by trying.

So I have the charts done already, and would have all the build info completed if not for other plans this weekend. So that is gonna have to be wrapped up this week, but I know I have the time. :smalltongue: But I like what I got here; I'm hoping just for high points in UotSI.

Same here. I have more fun just making the characters and creating who they are. It's whey i didn't mind taking the hit on my points, but was absolutely joyed by how much people seemed to love my first entry's story and find the build somewhat original even if he didn't fare well anywhere else :P

Kazyan

2013-11-10, 11:49 PM

I finally have a nice idea. Let's see if it pans out.

relytdan

2013-11-11, 08:56 AM

Are these this SI's Judges?
Gwachitallemall
WhamBamSam
Kesnit

Gwachitallemall

2013-11-11, 10:37 AM

Are these this SI's Judges?
Gwachitallemall
WhamBamSam
Kesnit

I just looked through everything, and I see nothing where Kesnit says they will judge.

Whambamsam says they will judge only if they can't come up with an idea, and I haven't seen that they've posted they can't come up with an idea.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but so far I believe I'm the only confirmed Judge.

OMG PONIES

2013-11-11, 10:40 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but so far I believe I'm the only confirmed Judge.

The cheese stands alone. You brave soul.

On the other hand, I'm not really digging the originality of my build's primary schtick. We'll see if I can pluck out anything juicy, but if not I'm thinking of hopping onboard the judging ship. Chairman, question coming your way via PM. I'm not like you young whippersnappers that submit prior to the deadline :smalltongue:.

dysprosium

2013-11-11, 10:46 AM

The cheese stands alone. You brave soul.

Indeed. But it wouldn't be the first time a first time judge was the only judge.

But I imagine a second judge will materialize somewhere even if Ponies does enter.

I'm not like you young whippersnappers that submit prior to the deadline. :smalltongue:

You mean you're allowed to submit before the deadline?

Amphetryon

2013-11-11, 11:01 AM

The cheese stands alone. You brave soul.

On the other hand, I'm not really digging the originality of my build's primary schtick. We'll see if I can pluck out anything juicy, but if not I'm thinking of hopping onboard the judging ship. Chairman, question coming your way via PM. I'm not like you young whippersnappers that submit prior to the deadline :smalltongue:.

"Young whippersnappers?"

*goes back to check amount of IC involvement, and join dates*

:smallconfused: :smallwink:

Tim Proctor

2013-11-11, 11:09 AM

I thought that my build was inventive... I looked at what would be the common power builds and then went with something way in left field. But now that I've already submitted I think that maybe I should have gone even farther out there, where none would follow.

Vaz

2013-11-11, 11:35 AM

I see you've met Vizzini then? :D

OMG PONIES

2013-11-11, 11:40 AM

"Young whippersnappers?"

*goes back to check amount of IC involvement, and join dates*

:smallconfused: :smallwink:

Yeah, I didn't know how you still had it in you to submit early this round. Don't worry, though--I've got another rocking chair and a glass of sasparilla up here on my porch. Join me when you're done showing off and we can yell at the young 'uns together. :smalltongue:

I thought that my build was inventive... I looked at what would be the common power builds and then went with something way in left field. But now that I've already submitted I think that maybe I should have gone even farther out there, where none would follow.

If you're still inside the fence, you should always keep going. But given the mad scientists in this competition, you might be surprised how many of us you'll see when you get there :smallbiggrin:.

Amphetryon

2013-11-11, 11:42 AM

Yeah, I didn't know how you still had it in you to submit early this round. Don't worry, though--I've got another rocking chair and a glass of sasparilla up here on my porch. Join me when you're done showing off and we can yell at the young 'uns together. :smalltongue:

Could be troublesome getting up on that there porch, what with this trick knee I have these days. Back when I was a youngster, now: that was when I could do some serious porch climbing.

OMG PONIES

2013-11-11, 11:46 AM

Could be troublesome getting up on that there porch, what with this trick knee I have these days. Back when I was a youngster, now: that was when I could do some serious porch climbing.

You know, I just realized: this competition has a chairman, competitors, and judges...but we still don't have any Waldorf & Statler analogues. Interested?

http://thehuddle.co/huddle/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/muppets.jpg

You know, within forum rules, of course. :smallbiggrin:

WhamBamSam

2013-11-11, 12:17 PM

I just looked through everything, and I see nothing where Kesnit says they will judge.

Whambamsam says they will judge only if they can't come up with an idea, and I haven't seen that they've posted they can't come up with an idea.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but so far I believe I'm the only confirmed Judge.I have an idea, but I'm still in the process of hammering out the kinks and deciding how much I actually like it, and may or may not actually have time to write it up. So I'm still in the limbo state between judging and not-judging.

dysprosium

2013-11-11, 12:54 PM

You know, I just realized: this competition has a chairman, competitors, and judges...but we still don't have any Waldorf & Statler analogues. Interested?

You know, within forum rules, of course. :smallbiggrin:

Statler: Just don't let the bear tell the jokes!
Waldorf: Wait the bear tells jokes? That's what he's doing?
Statler: Doesn't seem right to me either. He should go back to being the godless killing machine he's supposed to be!
Both: Ho Ho HO Ha Ha Ha Ha

Venger

2013-11-11, 04:10 PM

chairman, I have PMed some questions to you, the answers to which will determine whether or not I will be able to cook. Since we have but one week left, I would appreciate a response.

if I can't cook, I may judge, as the viscount has helpfully posted my criteria already.

Deadline

2013-11-11, 04:35 PM

I has ideas and drive, but very little time. I may not get a submission in this time around...

Tim Proctor

2013-11-11, 07:26 PM

Can everyone post their builds so that I can make sure that mine is unique?

After going over everything a third time I think my build is fine, I feel I captured what a Corrupt Avenger does and this should be good. A little odd that we're running the same one again but eh, I'm cool with it.

Kesnit

2013-11-11, 08:29 PM

I just looked through everything, and I see nothing where Kesnit says they will judge.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but so far I believe I'm the only confirmed Judge.

You are wrong. I posted Nov 5 at 11:25AM that I would be judging. That post also includes my criteria. :smallsmile:

KrimsonNekros

2013-11-11, 09:34 PM

Eldonauran

2013-11-11, 10:53 PM

Well I'm using a (redacted) who's a (redacted) and uses (redacted) to deal with (redacted).

And I'm using a (redacted) (redacted) to qualify for (redacted) well before (redacted), and then (redacted) to help with (redacted) so that (redacted) is more powerful.

The cheese level is (redacted).

:smallamused:

And I suppose that means I'm taking back my towel and actually submitting a build. I give up and then I get inspiration. Go figure.

Muggins

2013-11-12, 02:50 AM

Watch your language, Eldonauran. There could be children reading this thread!

Vaz

2013-11-12, 06:59 AM

Well, I have my build, and my theme; I'm just struggling how to write up the fluff, but everything else is complete.

Still hoping for Slime Lord one day though.

Gwachitallemall

2013-11-12, 07:15 AM

You are wrong. I posted Nov 5 at 11:25AM that I would be judging. That post also includes my criteria. :smallsmile:

I blame the spoiler. I didnt see it. (Neither did almost anyone else.)

Deadline

2013-11-12, 10:34 AM

So I've got this one idea, but I can't see how anyone else doesn't see it. In fact, it seems like it might be bog standard, what with [REDACTED]. Still, I thought for sure that I wouldn't be the only one to enter a succubus dish last round, so maybe I should just stick with the idea?

Muggins

2013-11-12, 10:50 AM

I also considered [REDACTED], but I decided to instead go with an even more [REDACTED] option. This should be [REDACTED]. :smallamused:

OMG PONIES

2013-11-12, 12:04 PM

Curse you, erratta! I may be headed back to the drawing board...

I also considered [REDACTED], but I decided to instead go with an even more [REDACTED] option. This should be [REDACTED]. :smallamused:

We've got people redacting adjectives now? It's gone too far; won't someone think of the children?

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-12, 12:11 PM

Character submitted. Chairman, at your convenience, please confirm receipt. Thanks.
Confirmed, good sir.

chairman, I have PMed some questions to you, the answers to which will determine whether or not I will be able to cook. Since we have but one week left, I would appreciate a response.

if I can't cook, I may judge, as the viscount has helpfully posted my criteria already.
I quite a few PMs this morning - if I didn't answer yours, you'll have to send it again. I answered everything that I had.

Well, I have my build, and my theme; I'm just struggling how to write up the fluff, but everything else is complete.

Still hoping for Slime Lord one day though.
Never!

Curse you, erratta! I may be headed back to the drawing board...

We've got people redacting adjectives now? It's gone too far; won't someone think of the children?

I know, can you believe these [REDACTED] [REDACTED] [REDACTED] [REDACTED]? Shame on them!

RaviStrife

2013-11-12, 12:11 PM

Redacted

Thanks for the response, Chairman. Almost took myself out of the running, there.

OMG PONIES

2013-11-12, 12:31 PM

I quite a few PMs this morning - if I didn't answer yours, you'll have to send it again. I answered everything that I had.

In that case, I've got a rules question PM coming your way as a resend.

EDIT: And sent.

Venger

2013-11-12, 01:35 PM

Confirmed, good sir.

I quite a few PMs this morning - if I didn't answer yours, you'll have to send it again. I answered everything that I had.

oh, sure, resent.

RaviStrife

2013-11-12, 03:04 PM

Small question for CharGen- How is life calculated?

Vaz

2013-11-12, 04:29 PM

Assumed to be standard; no bonuses or penalties for Old Age. Ways of getting Old Age bonuses, especially those without penalties frequently get recgnised as being 'power grabs'; an extra +1 DC isn't frequently all 'that much' in the IC scoring rubrics) but is noted as a lack of elegance and/or originality, while too many penalties results in a power loss.

OMG PONIES

2013-11-12, 04:44 PM

Small question for CharGen- How is life calculated?

While Vaz provided plenty of insight about age categories, were you asking about calculating HP? If so, that's not usually a focus of the conversation. If your build is a bucket-o-HP and you think that's important to what it does, mention it in your write-up. If not, don't.

Amphetryon

2013-11-12, 04:58 PM

While Vaz provided plenty of insight about age categories, were you asking about calculating HP? If so, that's not usually a focus of the conversation. If your build is a bucket-o-HP and you think that's important to what it does, mention it in your write-up. If not, don't.

FWIW, I usually just assume that any IC Character's HP are calculated at 1/2 HD + CON bonus +1 HP/Character Level above 1st, unless it's explicitly stated otherwise. Obviously, if the Character in question has specific tricks to augment HP on top of that, those tricks need to be taken into account.

Tim Proctor

2013-11-12, 08:51 PM

I just realized that you could submit more than one build per contest... I got another one coming in then. Is the limit 2, or do people just not submit more than 2?

dysprosium

2013-11-12, 09:13 PM

I just realized that you could submit more than one build per contest... I got another one coming in then. Is the limit 2, or do people just not submit more than 2?

I submitted three builds for Cipher Adept. Just be careful though--two of my three entries did not do very well since my attention was split.

sabelo2000

2013-11-12, 11:38 PM

I just realized that you could submit more than one build per contest... I got another one coming in then. Is the limit 2, or do people just not submit more than 2?

The Chefs have sort of stabilized on an unofficial gentleman's rule: submit your primary build; and then when we near the deadline, if the field doesn't look too packed, submit a 2nd or 3rd.

As previously stated, remember that splitting your efforts between two builds could be detrimental to both of them; also, consider our Judges, who have to spend considerable effort analyzing each dish.

That said, there's no rules against submitting twice (or thrice, or more!) so if the bug strikes you, go wild.

Muggins

2013-11-13, 04:33 AM

Got my submission in, checking in for a receipt.

I think I did a lot better this time. :smallbiggrin:

WhamBamSam

2013-11-13, 10:48 AM

I'm not going to be able to get my submission written up in time. I'll post what it was after the reveal and try to judge.

My criteria will be the same ones I used for Thrall of Orcus.

Originality
Start from a baseline score of 3.

Up to 1 point of bonus or penalty based on whether the classes/race you used were things I expected, and whether anyone else thought to use them. I won't deduct points for using Human. Particularly stinky known cheese may see a deduction here.

Up to 1 point of bonus or penalty to a build doing something interesting or something we've all seen it before respectively. You can fill a common niche without incurring my wrath, but I'd like to see a new spin on it. Cool factor in your crunch may see a bonus here.

Up to a 0.25 point bonus if I find your fluff to be particularly excellent.

Plagiarism of another build found online will result in a 0 in this category. If you wish to dispute an accusation of plagiarism (ie, if you wish to demonstrate that the build I accuse you of copying was originally yours), PM me directly instead of using the standard dispute process so that I can confirm your identity, but you remain anonymous for other judges. I don't expect to have to invoke this rule, but it's here if necessary.

Power
Start from a baseline score of 3.

Up to 0.75 point of bonus or penalty for versatility. Do you have a variety of options or are you a one trick pony that can easily be shut down?

Up to 1.25 points of bonus or penalty for how well you do the things that you do. For example, if you're a front line fighter, how good are you at hurting things?

Elegance
Start from a baseline score of 4.

Each failure to qualify for a non-secret ingredient thing results in a 0.5 point deduction.

A rule interpretation which is highly questionable or likely not to fly at the average table will result in a penalty of up to 0.25 points depending on severity. I'm pretty cheese tolerant as judges go though.

Up to 0.75 points of bonus or penalty based on the overall flow of the build. A clean, flowing progression will score more points, whereas something that feels awkward may be penalized. As with cheese, I'm not going to try to be especially punitive toward dipping, but some dips are too glaring not to warrant some deduction. If you incur multiclass penalties, change alignment mid-build for crunch reasons, or the like, you can expect to be dinged here.

Up to 0.25 bonus points if the build just screams classy.

UoSI
Start from a baseline score of 1.

I will award bonus points for every class ability or prerequisite that I see used in some way. The more integral the use is to the build, the larger the bonus. These bonuses will never add up to more than +3.75.

If the build really captures the feel of the SI, I'll award an additional 0.25 point bonus.

A build which fails to qualify for the SI or uses no levels of the SI receives a 0 in this category.

Korahir

2013-11-13, 10:49 AM

Character submitted. Receipt confirmation would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-13, 11:14 AM

OMG PONIES

2013-11-13, 11:56 AM

Got my submission in, checking in for a receipt.

I think I did a lot better this time. :smallbiggrin:

Character submitted. Receipt confirmation would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Sorry kids, here in Iron Chef all sales are final. No refunds of time or sanity lost, no exchanging one neglected loved one for another, and no store credit for coming up with a great idea but running out of time to format it :smalltongue:.

Muggins

2013-11-13, 01:07 PM

Thanks, Kuulvheysoon!

Sorry kids, here in Iron Chef all sales are final. No refunds of time or sanity lost, no exchanging one neglected loved one for another, and no store credit for coming up with a great idea but running out of time to format it :smalltongue:.
Darn.

Macabaret

2013-11-13, 03:07 PM

Ahhh...the joys of filling out the entire table, and then realising it can be better. Then going back to redo the skills entirely, from level 1 onward.

Joy, joy, joy....:smallfurious:

Tim Proctor

2013-11-13, 04:35 PM

Ahhh...the joys of filling out the entire table, and then realising it can be better. Then going back to redo the skills entirely, from level 1 onward.

Joy, joy, joy....:smallfurious:
Yup, I did that probably 2 to 3 times... or realizing that something was a CC skill and so you can't do everything you wanted to.

Anyways Chairman, I submitted two builds can you please verify (since its the popular thing to do) that you received two separate builds from me?

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-13, 04:39 PM

Yup, I did that probably 2 to 3 times... or realizing that something was a CC skill and so you can't do everything you wanted to.

Anyways Chairman, I submitted two builds can you please verify (since its the popular thing to do) that you received two separate builds from me?

...I did?

Ah. So I did. For future reference, could everyone note in the subject lines if it's your second entry, or just an edit of your other one? It'd be much appreciated.

Tim Proctor

2013-11-13, 04:44 PM

...I did?

Ah. So I did. For future reference, could everyone note in the subject lines if it's your second entry, or just an edit of your other one? It'd be much appreciated.
My bad, I'm sorry.

I do want to say this was one of the funner IC builds that I've done. I haven't competed in many, but these ones were much simpler than Smeagol.

Deadline

2013-11-13, 06:51 PM

KrimsonNekros

2013-11-14, 04:51 PM

Ze pain! I feel it with you!

In other news, I'm having difficulty with my fluff, and my namesake fast approaches. :smalleek:

Yeah I'm writing up my fluff still and working on the best combination of spells to use for my books. Definitely a challenge since I don't play casters often.

OMG PONIES

2013-11-14, 05:06 PM

Of course. In the course of creating a course that's original but otherwise par for the course, I've come across a course of optimization treatment that's been a crash course in UoSI (but quite coarse in terms of Elegance, Power, and Originality). Which course to follow?

Amphetryon

2013-11-14, 05:07 PM

Biotroll

2013-11-14, 06:55 PM

Can I get confirmation too mr. chairman? My connection is iffy and I would like to make sure that the build arrived well.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-14, 07:51 PM

Can I get confirmation too mr. chairman? My connection is iffy and I would like to make sure that the build arrived well.

I did indeed receive it, no worries.

Thurbane

2013-11-14, 10:47 PM

Small question for CharGen- How is life calculated?
To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.

Gwachitallemall

2013-11-15, 08:05 AM

I used that conan quote last IC.

On another note... everyobe knows rhey can ask for a confirmation receipt on the private messages toolbar right? Just wondering.

yougi

2013-11-15, 08:38 AM

I used that conan quote last IC.

On another note... everyone knows they can ask for a confirmation receipt on the private messages toolbar right? Just wondering.

You are my god*.

*Only if you give both the Fire and Destruction/Death domains.

Muggins

2013-11-15, 08:39 AM

Because if he didn't get the first private message, he's almost certainly going to get the second one, right? :smallconfused:

Besides, some small talk doesn't hurt.

OMG PONIES

2013-11-15, 08:47 AM

You are my god*.

*Only if you give both the Fire and Destruction/Death domains.

I get it!

Because if he didn't get the first private message, he's almost certainly going to get the second one, right? :smallconfused:

Besides, some small talk doesn't hurt.

Dear Chairman, can you please confirm receipt of my PM asking you to confirm receipt of my prior PM about confirming receipt of my...

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-15, 09:33 AM

Dear Chairman, can you please confirm receipt of my PM asking you to confirm receipt of my prior PM about confirming receipt of my...

What do you mean? I haven't received anything from you.

Gwachitallemall

2013-11-15, 11:14 AM

Because if he didn't get the first private message, he's almost certainly going to get the second one, right? :smallconfused:

Besides, some small talk doesn't hurt.

I meant the little button you can check that will tell you if they received the messages. (The confirmed/unconfirmed thing under the amount of messages you have.)

Vaz

2013-11-15, 11:36 AM

Because if he didn't get the first private message, he's almost certainly going to get the second one, right? :smallconfused:

Besides, some small talk doesn't hurt.

No worries.

Really need to get a grip on my fluff for my entry, but the thing is I have several builds running around that I *like* better, but don't think I'll get in on time. On the bright side it's Monday for entry. On the bad side, I'm working tonight, then it's a few parties for Flatmates; one who's a twin with a really fine looking sister that's coming down for the weekend.

It's just gotta be done, bro code or no.

Muggins

2013-11-15, 12:11 PM

Well, I'll be moving house, so I got my submission out of the way early. Surprisingly, I didn't mind doing the fluff - sorting out the build was the hard part, and that took ages!

I meant the little button you can check that will tell you if they received the messages. (The confirmed/unconfirmed thing under the amount of messages you have.)
Whatever it is, I can't find it. :smallsmile:

dysprosium

2013-11-15, 12:41 PM

The Monday deadline will appear to work in my favor so I should be able to get my entry in on time.

I like writing the fluff too and some of the stories I've seen here have been quite awesome.

The code was the hardest part for me at first, but now filling out the table takes little time at all.

Gwachitallemall

2013-11-15, 04:19 PM

Well, I'll be moving house, so I got my submission out of the way early. Surprisingly, I didn't mind doing the fluff - sorting out the build was the hard part, and that took ages!

Whatever it is, I can't find it. :smallsmile:

Additional options: request a receipt for this message.
Underneath send message and the smilies.

Muggins

2013-11-17, 06:07 AM

Additional options: request a receipt for this message.
Underneath send message and the smilies.
From what I can gather, that just tells you whether or not the message was read. It doesn't tell you whether it actually reached their inbox, which is the main concern. :smalltongue:

The deadline approaches. It'll be interesting to see what others cooked up.

KrimsonNekros

2013-11-17, 12:47 PM

well I've got all my fluff written out, I'm just working on the explanations then it's on to submission

Eldonauran

2013-11-17, 01:07 PM

I am ... much more satisfied with how my dish turned out than I thought I would have been. Perhaps the last secret ingredient being so open ended left me feeling really restricted this time.

Regardless, I am eager to see what everyone else came up with.

Treme

2013-11-17, 01:51 PM

Haluesen

2013-11-17, 03:00 PM

So I always forget, what is the time difference between GMT and PST?

I should have enough time to wrap up my character I think. Just working out the fluff. So far at least liking the flavor behind this class.

Curmudgeon

2013-11-17, 03:43 PM

So I always forget, what is the time difference between GMT and PST?
This time of the year, PST is 8 hours behind GMT.

KrimsonNekros

2013-11-17, 08:28 PM

Build submitted requesting confirmation of receipt when you get a chance Kuul

Dumbledore lives

2013-11-18, 01:49 AM

Submitted so I can stop worrying about the damn thing when I have other work to do.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-18, 02:21 AM

wow, i actually managed to submit one. that was a lot more work than i expected it to be!

Forgot to tick on the read receipt option so confirmation of submission would be great Kuulv, thanks. good luck to all! :smallsmile:

Build submitted requesting confirmation of receipt when you get a chance Kuul

Submitted so I can stop worrying about the damn thing when I have other work to do.

Indeed, I received them all.

OMG PONIES

2013-11-18, 09:32 AM

I'm working on two entries, it looks like. In true equine fashion, submitting them now would still be considered "early."

Deadline

2013-11-18, 11:23 AM

I'm working on two entries, it looks like. In true equine fashion, submitting them now would still be considered "early."

I thought I might try and use a page from the master this time and wait until the last possible moment to pull my dish together. I assure you it has nothing to do with my painful lack of free time.

Gwachitallemall

2013-11-18, 11:54 AM

From what I can gather, that just tells you whether or not the message was read. It doesn't tell you whether it actually reached their inbox, which is the main concern. :smalltongue:

The deadline approaches. It'll be interesting to see what others cooked up.

If it was read, doesn't that mean it reached their inbox?

Socratov

2013-11-18, 12:18 PM

Damn, this is the 5th time my build has fallen apart :smallfurious:

Apaprently my idea to stat up a twin to a favorite book character has been thwarted again (after illness, busyness and stuff not quite coming together).

Until next time :smallsigh:

Haluesen

2013-11-18, 03:11 PM

I'm gonna have to drop from entry too. :smallfrown: I just had too much to do this weekend and I don't trust my ability to finish the character when I still have schoolwork and other things. Another time. I need to start doing these in the first week so I do not have this problem.

I will post the chart at least after the reveal. :smalltongue: In general I still like the idea.

Amphetryon

2013-11-18, 04:02 PM

Macabaret

2013-11-18, 04:26 PM

Ok, I sent my build in. (And it looks like it's been read already?)
Stupid word count mucked with me, though, so....

If you received an entire build, do please let me know, Kuulv. And, if you haven't received it or there are things blatantly missing, do please let me know sooner, won't you?
Much thanks.

Venger

2013-11-18, 05:46 PM

probably wont be able to finish cooking this time round. good luck you you chefs

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-18, 06:03 PM

Dusk Eclipse

2013-11-18, 06:05 PM

How many entries so far?

Vaz

2013-11-18, 06:09 PM

Just doing my fluff now; work caught up with me (and a mates sister *score*), so I wasn't able to put that down in time. However, I'm just finishing the fluff on my entry I did get done. Procrastination was a wonderful thing. Apart from when there's a deadline.

Tim Proctor

2013-11-18, 06:20 PM

I hope everyone who is rushing to get stuff done can, and if it sounds like a couple people are in the same boat (as a competitor who already submitted) I wouldn't mind a small extension on the timeline since the count is so small.

KrimsonNekros

2013-11-18, 06:27 PM

Got it (2 parts). About an hour until the reveal, and this may be our smallest crop yet (with me as Chair).

That could be really good or really bad for originality

Amphetryon

2013-11-18, 06:28 PM

Got it (2 parts). About an hour until the reveal, and this may be our smallest crop yet (with me as Chair).

It's as if students were doing their final push for the semester, while people started planning for various winter holidays. :smalltongue:

Kazyan

2013-11-18, 06:31 PM

Bah, I'm out of time. Mechanically done, but unfluffed. I'll post my build after the reveal.

Vaz

2013-11-18, 06:42 PM

Just in.

I'll post my other build stub after the reveal.

dysprosium

2013-11-18, 06:44 PM

I got my entry in--despite being ill on the weekend.

Good luck to this round's entries!

Only had one idea this time and ran with it.

The Viscount

2013-11-18, 06:45 PM

In true IC form I've submitted mine close to the deadline.

Amphetryon

2013-11-18, 06:52 PM

In true IC form I've submitted mine close to the deadline.

Pffft. Venger regularly waits until another 20 minutes from now before submitting. :smalltongue: