Tome of Battle Questions

[lytokk]

So, I know I've been bugging you all about the Tome of Battle, but there's things I just don't know and really don't have anyone else to ask. So I do have to thank you all again for all the help you've been giving me.

That being said, the feat Vital Recovery lets you regain 3 points of damage +1 per character level once per encounter. The question, what defines an encounter? As I would be playing a warforged, using this method I could theoretically spar with a party member at the end of every day dealing subdual damage as many times as necessary to get me back up to full health? Since I would be playing a warforged, is this a worthwhile feat for my swordsage? Am almost done with the full build so I'll be posting it soon for some feedback.

[TheDarkSaint]

If I was your DM, I would probably say that sparring doesn't count as an encounter because not much meaningful comes out of it. No real decision were made that effected the characters in any meaningful way. All damage is subdual so while you might argue that you learned a little bit from sparing, I would rule it wouldn't be enough to qualify as an 'encounter'.

Looking at it from a fluff perspective, it seems to indicate that the "hit points" gained are those from gaining a second wind, of a new burst of energy that will allow you fight longer. Damage on a war-forged comes from actual damage.

I might allow it in actual combat where something gets "knocked back into place" to let you gain some hitpoints back, but I'd say "no" on the sparring.

But, user miles may vary on a Dark Saint adventure :)

[Red Fel]

So, I know I've been bugging you all about the Tome of Battle, but there's things I just don't know and really don't have anyone else to ask. So I do have to thank you all again for all the help you've been giving me.

That being said, the feat Vital Recovery lets you regain 3 points of damage +1 per character level once per encounter. The question, what defines an encounter? As I would be playing a warforged, using this method I could theoretically spar with a party member at the end of every day dealing subdual damage as many times as necessary to get me back up to full health? Since I would be playing a warforged, is this a worthwhile feat for my swordsage? Am almost done with the full build so I'll be posting it soon for some feedback.

An encounter, generally speaking, is a combat. That simple. The first time somebody says "roll initiative," you're in an encounter. Note that, specifically, this triggers when you recover maneuvers. According to RAW, you start an encounter with all readied maneuvers available (for Warblade and Swordsage) or your granted maneuvers available (for Crusader). This does not count as "recovering" them, so you would have to use your mid-combat recovery mechanic. For Crusader, this is automatic; for Warblade, it's a swift action; for Swordsage, this is a full-round action.

As an aside, Swordsages must take Adaptive Style. Consider it a feat tax and take it.

In other words, this effect can only be triggered in combat, can only be triggered once per combat, and if you are a Swordsage, it requires a full round action to trigger. Keep that in mind.

For a Warforged, any healing that isn't the Healing subschool is a good thing. If you're not going Crusader, you lose access to Devoted Spirit, so this healing might be very good for you, if you're willing to dedicate the full round to it. Remember that a Swordsage has a whole lot of maneuvers readied, so it's entirely possible that a fast combat could go by without you recovering maneuvers, and thus without triggering the feat.

Short version: This triggers on recovery. For a Swordsage, you might not even need to recover maneuvers, and if you do, it will take you a full round. As such, while useful, I think there may be better uses of your feats. That said, if you expect to sustain a lot of damage and need spot-healing, or spend many rounds in combat, it's not a terrible idea.

[lytokk]

I haven't seen a swordsage in action, so I'll have to take your word for it Red. Does adaptive style regenerate spent maneuvers or just switch all maneuvers out? Also, I assume, you can, but I want to check that you can prepare the same maneuver to be used multiple times per encounter correct?

[Fax Celestis]

The vague not-rule that most people define an encounter as is "anytime you get to sit down for five minutes, your encounter stuff resets".

[JaronK]

The vague not-rule that most people define an encounter as is "anytime you get to sit down for five minutes, your encounter stuff resets".

IIRC that's from the FAQ, though I think Tome of Battle references something like it too.

JaronK

[Red Fel]

I haven't seen a swordsage in action, so I'll have to take your word for it Red. Does adaptive style regenerate spent maneuvers or just switch all maneuvers out? Also, I assume, you can, but I want to check that you can prepare the same maneuver to be used multiple times per encounter correct?

Ordinarily, a Swordsage can use a full round action to recover a single maneuver. That's the price of knowing so many, and having so many readied.

Adaptive Style allows your Swordsage to not only recover all maneuvers with that full round action, but to actually change his maneuvers readied.

So you walk into combat with a half dozen maneuvers readied. You realize you're going to need different maneuvers to handle this threat. You take a full round action, and pick out maneuvers that are completely appropriate to this combat, and they're all readied and recovered. It's basically mandatory for a Swordsage.

EDIT: And no, you can't prepare the same maneuver twice.

DOUBLE-EDIT: Here's a quote from the Official FAQ:

If a character uses the Adaptive Style feat (ToB 28) after he has expended some of his readied maneuvers, does he choose new readied maneuvers equal to the maximum number he can ready, or equal to the number he hasn’t yet expended?

Using the Adaptive Style feat completely resets the character’s readied maneuvers, making them all available for use. If you’re a crusader, you also reset your granted maneuvers.

[Big Fau]

IIRC that's from the FAQ, though I think Tome of Battle references something like it too.

JaronK

Yeah, if you refrain from attacking for a full minute.


When an encounter ends, a martial adept automatically recovers all expended maneuvers. Even a few moments out of combat is sufficient to refresh all maneuvers expended in the previous battle. In the case of a long, drawn-out series of fights, or if an adept is out of combat entirely, assume that if a character makes no attacks of any kind, initiates no new maneuvers, and is not targeted by any enemy attacks for 1 full minute, he can recover all expended maneuvers. If a character can’t avoid attacking or being attacked for 1 minute, he can’t automatically recover his maneuvers and must use special actions to do so instead.

RAW, Vital Recovery triggers once per minute that the Adept doesn't attack. This is significantly more useful.

[Red Fel]

Yeah, if you refrain from attacking for a full minute.

RAW, Vital Recovery triggers once per minute that the Adept doesn't attack. This is significantly more useful.

Granted, then, that maneuvers are recovered at the end of combat or if you do nothing for one full minute. However, by RAW, that is still only available once per encounter. Even assuming that full minute of inaction counts as "stepping out of combat," it doesn't end the encounter. I would argue, therefore, that while the recovery may trigger Vital Recovery, it can still only be triggered once during that encounter.

But I will concede that, at the very least, you could trigger it at the end of every combat to brush off your injuries. That's actually pretty nice.

[Big Fau]

Granted, then, that maneuvers are recovered at the end of combat or if you do nothing for one full minute. However, by RAW, that is still only available once per encounter. Even assuming that full minute of inaction counts as "stepping out of combat," it doesn't end the encounter. I would argue, therefore, that while the recovery may trigger Vital Recovery, it can still only be triggered once during that encounter.

But I will concede that, at the very least, you could trigger it at the end of every combat to brush off your injuries. That's actually pretty nice.

I prefer letting it act as fast healing. Gives Fighters a reason to take it, in addition to the Martial Adepts.

But I'm also significantly more comfortable with my players having infinite healing (I house ruled the Vigor aura and Touch of Healing reserve feat to not have the 1/2 HP cap).

[lytokk]

Can maneuvers be used in combat only? I recall seeing one that added to your base land speed for a round and I can conceive of many reasons to actually use that one. Also, good point on the adaptive style feat, I'll put it on my list of feats to grab.

[gooddragon1]

Actually if you want to do full healing outside of combat it's easier than that if you're willing to go strictly RAW. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12693119#post12693119)

[Red Fel]

The short answer is that if a maneuver requires combat, it requires combat.

If it simply requires striking a target, you could declare a tree your target and just use the ability. But you'd need to take a minute (or full round action) between strikes to recover the maneuver before you could do it again.

If it requires nothing but a swift action, you can pretty much use it anytime. Again, though, you have to recover it.

[Shining Wrath]

The only rules references I could find quickly are

Rage (Ex)

A barbarian can fly into a rage a certain number of times per day. In a rage, a barbarian temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, but he takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase in Constitution increases the barbarian’s hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the rage when his Constitution score drops back to normal. (These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are.) While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats. A fit of rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the character’s (newly improved) Constitution modifier. A barbarian may prematurely end his rage. At the end of the rage, the barbarian loses the rage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (-2 penalty to Strength, -2 penalty to Dexterity, can’t charge or run) for the duration of the current encounter (unless he is a 17th-level barbarian, at which point this limitation no longer applies).

A barbarian can fly into a rage only once per encounter. At 1st level he can use his rage ability once per day. At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, he can use it one additional time per day (to a maximum of six times per day at 20th level). Entering a rage takes no time itself, but a barbarian can do it only during his action, not in response to someone else’s action.

and


When generating an encounter dealing with monsters away from their lair, remember that a creature only takes what it can easily carry with it. In the case of a creature that cannot use treasure, that generally means nothing. The monster safeguards or hides its treasure as well as it can, but it leaves it behind when outside the lair. Intelligent creatures that own useful, portable treasure (such as magic items) tend to carry and use these, leaving bulky items at home. Treasure can include coins, goods, and items. Creatures can have varying amounts of each, as follows.

An encounter, then, is one fight - and the DM has to decide whether or not a "running battle" or a battle with arriving reinforcements counts as one encounter or more than one.


IIRC that's from the FAQ, though I think Tome of Battle references something like it too.

JaronK

It is explicitly thus in 4E.

[JaronK]

See the FAQ for more information on other kinds of encounters, as well as the DMG. A Trap is another non combat encounter. So is going into a store to buy supplies and talk to people. An Avalanche is an encounter too.

Basically, if you're interacting with the world, as opposed to just sitting around doing nothing or just traveling somewhere, it's an encounter.

JaronK

[lytokk]

So what, I go to sit down, roll my target attack against the earth, and once I succeed by using some sort of maneuver, I then meditate for a round to recover my maneuver, gain those hit points back, wait a minute, stand up by rolling my attack against the earth and missing, expending a maneuver, meditate, gain hit points, and repeat til I'm healed?

[JaronK]

So what, I go to sit down, roll my target attack against the earth, and once I succeed by using some sort of maneuver, I then meditate for a round to recover my maneuver, gain those hit points back, wait a minute, stand up by rolling my attack against the earth and missing, expending a maneuver, meditate, gain hit points, and repeat til I'm healed?

Yes. You can also just talk to somebody, craft something quick (like a quarterstaff), or basically in any way control your character and use a maneuver. But I think it might have been five minutes of doing nothing according to the FAQ, IIRC.

JaronK

[Chronos]

Quoth Red Fel:

An encounter, generally speaking, is a combat. That simple.
For every question, there is an answer that is simple, obvious, and wrong. As JaronK said, there are a great many possible encounters that are not combats.

Incidentally, to anticipate another common misconception, you can also earn XP for non-combat encounters. You can even sometimes choose whether you're going to treat an encounter as a combat encounter or a non-combat one, and earn XP for it either way.

[Fax Celestis]

So what, I go to sit down, roll my target attack against the earth, and once I succeed by using some sort of maneuver, I then meditate for a round to recover my maneuver, gain those hit points back, wait a minute, stand up by rolling my attack against the earth and missing, expending a maneuver, meditate, gain hit points, and repeat til I'm healed?

Hell, forget hitting the ground. Adaptive Style to reready your maneuvers (and in doing so, refresh them) once per minute to regain HP.

[lytokk]

I do think I'm reading too much into this and not going by the RAI and instead really focusing on RAW. But I do need to find some way of increasing my encounters per day in order to maximize the healing I can get from this. As it is the swordsage is going to end up being a master of tripping, should prb take combat reflexes for all of those people standing up.

[Red Fel]

I do think I'm reading too much into this and not going by the RAI and instead really focusing on RAW. But I do need to find some way of increasing my encounters per day in order to maximize the healing I can get from this. As it is the swordsage is going to end up being a master of tripping, should prb take combat reflexes for all of those people standing up.

If your goal in taking Vital Recovery is to get lots and lots of healing, you're doing it wrong. That's not the purpose of the feat, and trying to do that is a bad call, even for a Warforged. VR is a feat designed to give you some spot-healing. The theory is that if a combat has gone on long enough that you have to recover maneuvers, you may need a quick refresher; alternatively, it patches up some scrapes at the end of combat. Easy and convenient. In theory, as others have mentioned, you could use it even in non-combat encounters, although that's likely pushing RAI.

Vital Recovery is a patch, it's not supposed to be your one-stop healing shop. At your highest level, it gives you 23 HP. And that's at level 20. That's why Warforged make Repair checks, or carry kits, or use other sources of non-Healing-subschool healing. If you're seriously triggering encounters for the sole purpose of getting free healing, you're missing the point entirely.

[Chronos]

But I do need to find some way of increasing my encounters per day in order to maximize the healing I can get from this.
Whenever you want to use it, walk up to a tree and say "Hello, tree, nice to meet you". You're encountering the tree. Or boulder, or wall, or whatever. Unless you're alone in the middle of the astral plane far from any portal, you can have an encounter pretty much whenever you want to.

[lytokk]

Right, so other than Craft checks, and taking crusader levels, what can I do to maximize healing as a warforged? And you're right, this is an on the spot healing, maybe something to help out in a pinch, but other than that, not incredibly useful.

[Shining Wrath]

Right, so other than Craft checks, and taking crusader levels, what can I do to maximize healing as a warforged? And you're right, this is an on the spot healing, maybe something to help out in a pinch, but other than that, not incredibly useful.

There is an Iron Heart maneuver that is pretty useful for healing in and out of combat called Iron Heart Endurance. If you have half or fewer of your normal HP, you can regain 2xlevel HP. Since it's 6th level you won't get there before level 11, so it's good for 22 HP.

Not worth it, probably, in combat (where an 11th level Warforged Warblade ought to be starting with 12 + (10*6.5) + 12*4 (for Constitution of 18) = 125 HP or thereabout. Down 63 or more, regain 22? Eh.

But after the combat, it saves your artificer a Repair Moderate or two. Just recover your maneuvers using Adaptive Style and you can use IHE once every twelve seconds until you have more than half your HP.

[Feint's End]

I btw think it's totally ok if you have infinite healing at level 1 with using Crusaders Strike and/or Martial Stance. It's after all pretty easy to strike something like a tree, stones or even the floor. But tbh I'd allow to just make some air movements and call it a special focus maneuver to apply Crusaders Strike. Out of combat healing is not that big of an issue if you understand how to construct interesting and challenging encounters since in combat the healing is still pretty bad.

[JaronK]

I btw think it's totally ok if you have infinite healing at level 1 with using Crusaders Strike and/or Martial Stance. It's after all pretty easy to strike something like a tree, stones or even the floor. But tbh I'd allow to just make some air movements and call it a special focus maneuver to apply Crusaders Strike. Out of combat healing is not that big of an issue if you understand how to construct interesting and challenging encounters since in combat the healing is still pretty bad.

Crusader's Strike requires an enemy, so that won't work. But Martial Spirit works on any opponent, so you can just use non lethal damage to box others in your party.

JaronK

[Feint's End]

Crusader's Strike requires an enemy, so that won't work. But Martial Spirit works on any opponent, so you can just use non lethal damage to box others in your party.

JaronK

Uh you are right ... missed the part on Crusader's Strike. Martial Spirit actually works on melee attacks so it doesn't matter what you punch or "successfully" hit to recieve the healing. Just carry some piece of wood or punch the air.

[Chronos]

A lot of DMs will interpret that Martial Spirit was supposed to have the same limitation as the strikes, though.