Please help calculating appropriate ECL

[KevlarTheD]

Hello all,

I've been bouncing around the forum for a few months now (it's great here btw). As part of that I started a worldbuild (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15828499), which I then took a step back from and let sit for a couple months. Now I've ramped back up to building the actual campaign.

I have the first several sessions outlined, with a good balance between giving the PCs options and letting the DM create a story line. I've hit a spot, though, which combines a system that I've had trouble with in the past (balancing ECL for midlevel parties) with a spot of inexperience (I have no idea what to do with dragons). I've only been playing D&D for a couple of years, three campaigns total, the last one of which I was DM for. My experience is rather limited when it comes to dragons, as we tend to play low-level games. If there's a dragon, it's always been there as a plot point rather than an enemy monster.

a couple of my players are ((fixated on? intrigued by?)) dragons so I'd like to stick at least one into the campaign, but not have it play any major role - I have other ideas for the main plot. it's more of an encounter monster for a sulfur/hot spring cave that they can encounter as a freak one-off.

What age of dragon is an appropriate encounter for a group of four average eighth-level PCs? The group is hardly optimized. Though by no means incompetent, they aren't really power/meta gamers.

I know dragons come in all shapes, sizes, and ages. I was thinking Black. Most of my question can be answered by telling me an appropriate age category. Thanks in advance!

[Red Fel]

The SRD has a list of dragons, including CR. Here's their entry on Black Dragons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#blackDragon).

Note that the Young Adult is CR 9, the Adult is CR 11. According to the Encounter Calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/), a CR 9 versus four 8th-level characters will be a "Very Difficult" encounter. Given that this is a dragon, even moreso. By contrast, a CR 7 is "Easy," although Dragons are rarely easy.

Given that you've described them as unoptimized, I would suggest a Juvenile (CR 7) Black Dragon. It is a medium enemy, lacks a Frightful Presence, but has solid stats and a powerful breath weapon. It can also cast Darkness.

It will be a challenge for them, but not obscenely so.

Note, however, that a Juvenile Dragon really only gives you a hint of the true Dragon experience. You need at least a Young Adult (CR 9) before you can get to the good stuff. At Young Adult, the Dragon gains Frightful Presence, a caster level, SR and DR. It also increases in size to Large. In short, Young Adult is a massive beast, even for a CR 9, and would likely crush the party you describe; but by the same token, the Juvenile Dragon is less like a dragon and more like a well-statted monster with a breath weapon. It might feel like a bit of a letdown.

[Sir Chuckles]

Personal opinion:
Wyrm. But I'm an awful person like that.

That said, you should also consider what your party is.
Is a common 4-man set up (Cleric, Fighter, Rogue or Bard, Wizard), or is it unoptimized as in "The Wizard has 14 Int, the Fighter is dual wielding whips, we're not sure what the Bard does, and instead of a Cleric we have a CW Samurai.

So yes, a Dragon with a CR 7 would be appropriate. If you think the party can't handle it, find a way to drop it's CR (Wing Injury or something).

[Red Fel]

Personal opinion:
Wyrm. But I'm an awful person like that.

That said, you should also consider what your party is.
Is a common 4-man set up (Cleric, Fighter, Rogue or Bard, Wizard), or is it unoptimized as in "The Wizard has 14 Int, the Fighter is dual wielding whips, we're not sure what the Bard does, and instead of a Cleric we have a CW Samurai.

So yes, a Dragon with a CR 7 would be appropriate. If you think the party can't handle it, find a way to drop it's CR (Wing Injury or something).

That's actually also a great way to teach them to play smarter.

Offer the party a series of encounters en route to the dragon's lair. Say, in one they see it flying overhead, maybe one takes a potshot. In another, they can trigger a small cave-in before facing it, which drops rocks on it, injuring it. Various things they can do which might result in injury to the dragon before they face it, which would make it weaker and make the combat more manageable.

Also, when setting out the battle, advise them to make use of terrain. Remember, it may be a Dragon, but at that age, it's only Medium size. It can be surrounded and attacked. It may have a breath weapon, but that can be avoided, or even blocked with the right terrain. A Black Dragon is at a disadvantage fighting in a forest, for example. Low ceilings or overhanging branches can further limit its mobility.

[GreenETC]

One of the hardest things about dragons is the fact that they can fly and have infinite uses of their breath weapon, and that any mildly intelligent dragon isn't going to sit on the floor to attack the party when it can just circle strafe. If you're party is understands D&D tactics and knows what to do when encountering a dragon (spread out, start flying, use ranged attacks) then they should be able to handle a CR 9 Young Adult Black Dragon, provided they don't just fall flat or freeze up. It works nicely as an out of the way, "extra but unnecessary" boss fight, as they could either leave it alone or go find it and have to deal with the consequences.