ToB Stone Dragon ground requirement

[huttj509]

So, in the Tome of Battle, Stone dragon maneuvers have a requirement

Pg. 81:

"Unlike with other disciplines, adepts of this school rely on an external force-the power of the earth and stone-to help power their maneuvers. As a result, Stone Dragon maneuvers can be initiated only if you are in contact with the ground."

Do people normally interpret this in a physical sense, of needing solid footing, or the metaphysical sense of spiritual energy from the stone, as opposed to just mechanical leverage/bracing?

I've asked my DM, and he's thinking about it, I just find myself being able to argue either way and thought I'd snag some other perspectives.

There's always a feat to take a Devoted Spirit strike for my DR ignoring needs, as an option, though that wouldn't ignore hardness. It'd also pave the way to Thicket of Blades as a bonus.

"Ah, no, you can't use that maneuver, you're standing on a rug!"

[Metahuman1]

I tend to think solid footing, just based on the fact that I'm familiar with a number of real world martial arts forms, armed and unarmed, were you use your stance/footing to push off form the ground and increase the power of your strike.


That said, what I'd love to figure out is a way to make a stone slab float like a platform under you so that you can just deploy that and use Stone Dragon Maneuvers any where any time.

[KillianHawkeye]

I assumed it meant exactly what it says: that you need to be on the ground. That being said, I wouldn't penalize you for standing on a rug or a hardwood floor, or for wearing boots that technically separate your feet from the ground; you'd just need to be standing at ground level (or underground, I guess).

[MukkTB]

I prefer the leverage interpretation because most stone dragon maneuvers are not supernatural.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I always saw it two ways: you're either at ground level (not necessarily on stone), or you're on solid footing. I'll always go with the latter, because it's stupid if you can't do it because you're fighting on the second story of a building, or on an airship.


I prefer the leverage interpretation because most stone dragon maneuvers are not supernatural.

No Stone Dragon maneuvers are supernatural.

[Melcar]

So, in the Tome of Battle, Stone dragon maneuvers have a requirement

Pg. 81:


Do people normally interpret this in a physical sense, of needing solid footing, or the metaphysical sense of spiritual energy from the stone, as opposed to just mechanical leverage/bracing?

I've asked my DM, and he's thinking about it, I just find myself being able to argue either way and thought I'd snag some other perspectives.

There's always a feat to take a Devoted Spirit strike for my DR ignoring needs, as an option, though that wouldn't ignore hardness. It'd also pave the way to Thicket of Blades as a bonus.

"Ah, no, you can't use that maneuver, you're standing on a rug!"


I would say, that you cant use it if inside a building, or on top on some un-natural elevatet point, like building or caravan on something like that. So natural ground...

[Metahuman1]

I would say, that you cant use it if inside a building, or on top on some un-natural elevatet point, like building or caravan on something like that. So natural ground...

Even though all the maneuvers are extraordinary ability's and all that serves to do is throw yet another nerf at mundanes/melee?

[KillianHawkeye]

Even though all the maneuvers are extraordinary ability's and all that serves to do is throw yet another nerf at mundanes/melee?

Isn't it the tradeoff for Stone Dragon maneuvers having so few prerequisites to learn though?

[Big Fau]

I think it was a holdover from the alpha stage of the Bo9S, when maneuvers were possibly going to be Psionic, so I just ignore it.

[Metahuman1]

Isn't it the tradeoff for Stone Dragon maneuvers having so few prerequisites to learn though?

Even if I took that requirement away from them, there not as potent as Diamond Mind as a school, and arguably they'd also continue to loose to White Raven and/or Devoted Spirit. Maybe even Iron Heart, though THAT one is certainly much closer as a match up.

Tome of Battle is a balanced system by and large, but a buff like needing fewer maneuvers to qualify for higher level one's that allowed a bit more branching out and diversity form one martial adept to the next of the same class would just push the classes more in the high Tier 3 range, which is awesome and all but not a problem to handle if you actually know what your doing as a DM and the people not playing Tome of Battle Classes have a clue.

So, the Trade off is utterly unnecessary, and does nothing but hurt a melee option for no reason.

[KillianHawkeye]

So, the Trade off is utterly unnecessary, and does nothing but hurt a melee option for no reason.

It's not for no reason, it's for roleplaying flavor! :smallwink:

[Big Fau]

It's not for no reason, it's for roleplaying flavor! :smallwink:

Your bluetext has gone monochrome. I fix.

[Gray Mage]

That said, what I'd love to figure out is a way to make a stone slab float like a platform under you so that you can just deploy that and use Stone Dragon Maneuvers any where any time.

Wouldn't putting earth inside your boots work (at least by RAW if not by anything resembling common sense)?

[Metahuman1]

Wouldn't putting earth inside your boots work (at least by RAW if not by anything resembling common sense)?

If we assume your drawing Mystical power form the ground, yes. If were assuming were using exceptional use of leverage and body mechanics to generate staggeringly powerful swings, no. My proposition, if I could figure out how to make it work, fixes it for both. Thus, problem solved.

[avr]

There was some clarifying text somewhere that you had to be within one foot of actual, earth or rock ground. Which would make it unusable in most parts of houses built on sloping ground, say. Or if you were on the ground floor of a house with a basement. Or above ground level. Or on a ship, or flying, ... the list goes on.

That said stone dragon really doesn't need the nerf and I think 'not flying or swimming' is enough of a limitation.

[Metahuman1]

There was some clarifying text somewhere that you had to be within one foot of actual, earth or rock ground. Which would make it unusable in most parts of houses built on sloping ground, say. Or if you were on the ground floor of a house with a basement. Or above ground level. Or on a ship, or flying, ... the list goes on.

That said stone dragon really doesn't need the nerf and I think 'not flying or swimming' is enough of a limitation.

Were was that text anyway?


But yeah, totally agree. Really wish I could get that item I mentioned above to work, anyone got any ideas on that? You know, for DM's that wanna just point at the book on this one?

[shaikujin]

Find a stone floor. Cut out a shield shaped piece of it.

Use that to make a stone (or earthen?) shield large enough to stand on.
Give it the Flying property.

Use it as a flying hover board that you can leverage off.

Workable?

(If that still doesn't meet the "contact with the ground" requirement, perhaps sovereign glue some bits of earth and coffee "grounds" to it to meet the in "contact with the ground" requirement. This part would probably get a DMG thrown at you though)

I was considering using the hover board to meet the battle jump triggering requirements. Perhaps it might work here too.

Creating floating islands of ground using Tenser floating disc might be another way.

[Scow2]

I always took the requirement to mean "You must be standing", as opposed to Flying/Levitating, Jumping, Riding a Mount (Unless you're standing in the saddle), or being carried or eaten.

[Kane0]

I interpret it like an Avatar Earthbender. You need access to stone in some form in order to make use of the Stone Dragon style. You don't need to be standing on it but it does need to be within reasonable reach.

[jaybird]

Even if I took that requirement away from them, there not as potent as Diamond Mind as a school, and arguably they'd also continue to loose to White Raven and/or Devoted Spirit. Maybe even Iron Heart, though THAT one is certainly much closer as a match up.


You think Stone Dragon would be close to on par with Iron Heart? The school of Iron Heart Surge, the Steel Wind line, and Wall of Blades?

I will, however, agree that nothing matches Diamond Mind in sheer potency.

[CyberThread]

as long as you wear rubber boots you are ..grounded

[TuggyNE]

as long as you wear rubber boots you are ..grounded

Yeaaahhhhh, for that joke, CyberDrag, I think you should be grounded for a week.

… oh dear, I just did it too, didn't I.

[Metahuman1]

You think Stone Dragon would be close to on par with Iron Heart? The school of Iron Heart Surge, the Steel Wind line, and Wall of Blades?

I will, however, agree that nothing matches Diamond Mind in sheer potency.

From the school of Refreshing, Stacking DR, Overcoming DR AND hardness, harming enemy action economy, Dropping damage on the target, AND having a capstone maneuver worth it's salt (2d6 Con damage that stacks with other Con Damage sources Vs. +100 damage to one swing.), I'd say yeah, it's in the same weight class as Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge and Mithrial Tornado. Not good at the same things, or good to combine with Iron Heart in a given round most rounds, but good.

And making a school able to challenge another and get into either the 5th or the 4th slot for strength depending on personal rating when there's 3 more schools that clear cut top it if not 4, will not unbalance the game.

[Sith_Happens]

as long as you wear rubber boots you are ..grounded

What? No, that's the one way to be standing on the ground and not be grounded.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I prefer to believe that it is in fact on solid footing, because I would like to believe that, somewhere out there, the intersect of Earthbender-like characters who ride chunks of stone, Terra-style (http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m364bnUjPj1qh0palo1_1280.jpg),and characters who use Stone Dragon stances, has produced a viable character who could conceivably do both simultaneously, and I would hate for *anything* to impede this character's viability unnecessarily.

[Tar Palantir]

Yeah, I would probably just purchase a dwarven-made flying "carpet" made of solid stone, just so I could fulfill both the leverage and mystical conditions while simultaneously violating the spirit of the restriction to hell and back. But that's just me :smallcool:.

[Iryanmadayana]

So wait... does this mean that RAW, you cannot execute Stone Dragon maneuvers when, say, in a desert or at the beach, because the ground is loose rather than solid?

...what if you have Sandskimmer to treat sand as if it were solid ground?

[Andezzar]

Sand is still made up from solids. So you are standing on solid ground, but not necessarily stable ground.

Additionally the rules don't even require solid ground, just any kind of ground.

[Sith_Happens]

Additionally the rules don't even require solid ground, just any kind of ground.

That makes things rather easy for Good Crusaders, then. They just have to stay on the moral high ground.

[Andezzar]

dum dum Tshh (http://instantrimshot.com/index.php?sound=rimshot&play=true)

[Darrin]

That makes things rather easy for Good Crusaders, then. They just have to stay on the moral high ground.

Give a Talisman of the Disk to an ally/cohort. Fill the disk with a Bottle of Endless Sand. Full Attack from higher ground every round. If you want to use standard action strikes, take the Cloak Dance feat for concealment.

Hmmm. I wonder if acorn of far travel would let you count as in contact with the ground?

[Adverb]

So, in the Tome of Battle, Stone dragon maneuvers have a requirement

Pg. 81:


"Unlike with other disciplines, adepts of this school rely on an external force-the power of the earth and stone-to help power their maneuvers. As a result, Stone Dragon maneuvers can be initiated only if you are in contact with the ground."


It turns out this was deleted in a CustServ errata (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=13292.0).



Page 81 - [Deletion]
Delete the second paragraph of the intro text.


It feels to me like someone was writing some stuff, and accidentally included a restriction in some text that a lot of people skipped reading, and then later someone went "oops, that shouldn't be there" and deleted it.

I still wish there was an Earthbind-style Stone Dragon move, though, and for that I'd sure require ground contact.

[Andezzar]

It turns out this was deleted in a CustServ errata (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=13292.0).



It feels to me like someone was writing some stuff, and accidentally included a restriction in some text that a lot of people skipped reading, and then later someone went "oops, that shouldn't be there" and deleted it.

I still wish there was an Earthbind-style Stone Dragon move, though, and for that I'd sure require ground contact.How is a post on brilliantgameologists in any form official or an erratum?

[Shining Wrath]

If you're playing a ToB character and want to use Stone Dragon (one of the weaker disciplines IMNHO), clarify this with your DM first. It should be easy to house-rule away, or house-rule into something interesting and flavorful that isn't crippling.

And you WILL want to use Stone Dragon, even if it's weak. Because Mountain Hammer lets you overcome a lot of difficult situations in and out of combat, and Mountain Tombstone Strike is the second-best 9th level maneuver behind the pure win that is Time Stands Still.

[Andezzar]

Because Mountain Hammer lets you overcome a lot of difficult situations in and out of combat,Or you could invest in a novice Stone Dragon Belt.

You may argue that the restriction is bad, but other disciplines have restrictions too. There are many SU maneuvers across several disciplines and some maneuvers require the use of certain weapons (many Tiger Claw maneuvers) or require a free hand (some Shadow Hand maneuvers).

[jaybird]

From the school of Refreshing, Stacking DR, Overcoming DR AND hardness, harming enemy action economy, Dropping damage on the target, AND having a capstone maneuver worth it's salt (2d6 Con damage that stacks with other Con Damage sources Vs. +100 damage to one swing.), I'd say yeah, it's in the same weight class as Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge and Mithrial Tornado. Not good at the same things, or good to combine with Iron Heart in a given round most rounds, but good.

And making a school able to challenge another and get into either the 5th or the 4th slot for strength depending on personal rating when there's 3 more schools that clear cut top it if not 4, will not unbalance the game.

Oh, I'm in favour of removing that silly restriction from Stone Dragon. Even without it, though, I'd put Stone Dragon in the bottom three schools of ToB, along with Desert Wind. DR and overcoming it are good, but not as fantastic as applying a full BAB character's attack roll as his touch AC or the "just say no" power of Iron Heart Surge/Focus.

Stone Dragon lacks mobility and defenses against anything other than straight physical damage. It can hit hard, but hitting hard is not the problem with warriors in 3.5.

[Coidzor]

Wouldn't putting earth inside your boots work (at least by RAW if not by anything resembling common sense)?

Be undead, mix it with the black sand in your boots. :smallamused:

[Andezzar]

Oh and don't forget the other three just say no powers: Moment of Perfect Mind, Action before Thought and Mind over Body. Not only is succeeding on a concentration check much easier than on a save due to the higher bonus, the autofail on a 1 of Saves is removed too. So basically it is an auto-succeed unless the Save DC is ridiculously high. The usual 10+Spell level (0-9) +Ability mod cannot compete long with 3+character level+CON mod.


Be undead, mix it with the black sand in your boots. :smallamused:I wouldn't call sand in the boots ground. Otherwise just use regular sand, if you are not undead.

[AzureKnight]

I would have to agree that the requirement would mean solid footing. After all, it doesnt matter whether you are standing on a natural or man made surface, if it is sturdy, then that should be all that counts. If you are on a quasi solid such as a marsh, I can see it not functioning as you are unable to have solid footing due to the sinking effects.

[Shining Wrath]

Oh, I'm in favour of removing that silly restriction from Stone Dragon. Even without it, though, I'd put Stone Dragon in the bottom three schools of ToB, along with Desert Wind. DR and overcoming it are good, but not as fantastic as applying a full BAB character's attack roll as his touch AC or the "just say no" power of Iron Heart Surge/Focus.

Stone Dragon lacks mobility and defenses against anything other than straight physical damage. It can hit hard, but hitting hard is not the problem with warriors in 3.5.

Biggest problem for me with SD is the stupid stances. Can't move more than 5 feet? Seriously?

[Adverb]

How is a post on brilliantgameologists in any form official or an erratum?

Ah, damn. I got mixed up. The presumed-official stuff is here (http://drammelsnotes.wikidot.com/the-unofficial-official-errata), and does not address the OP's question. The BG thread incorporates some of that stuff, but is itself an unofficial errata.

I think it is both sensible and thorough, though, and I recommend it, because ToB was printed somewhat hastily, and errata'd even more hastily (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Errata_ToB.zip).

Sorry for misattributing!

[Namfuak]

Ah, damn. I got mixed up. The presumed-official stuff is here (http://drammelsnotes.wikidot.com/the-unofficial-official-errata), and does not address the OP's question. The BG thread incorporates some of that stuff, but is itself an unofficial errata.

I think it is both sensible and thorough, though, and I recommend it, because ToB was printed somewhat hastily, and errata'd even more hastily (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Errata_ToB.zip).

Sorry for misattributing!

What do you mean, everyone knows that ToB's version of Storm Bolt needed a reflex save.

[Darrin]

Biggest problem for me with SD is the stupid stances. Can't move more than 5 feet? Seriously?

You can still move and then reactivate the stance with a swift action. Cuz, you know, it's not like you needed that swift action for anything important...