Rogue-Swashbuckler question

[Shadow Revenge]

I'm playing in a D&D 3.5 game with almost completely homebrewed magic system (yeah, it's annoying). anyways, I'm wanting to do a two or three level dip in Swashbuckler and I feel like I need some tips on the character build overall. My intention was to put together a Rogue focused on Sneak Attack Melee style fighting, but I totally open to suggestions. thx

Rogue 2 (Human)
str 14
dex 17
con 15
int 16
wis 14
cha 15

feats: TWF, Improved Init

here's the build I was considering

Rogue/Swashbuckler build

1] Rog1
SA+1d6,trapfinding, Feats:TWF,Improved Init

2] Rog2
Evasion

3] R2/Swash1
Feats:WeaponFinesse, QuickDraw

4] R2/Swash2
Grace+1,+1(18)Dex,

5] R3/Swash2
SA+2d6,TrapSense+1

6] R4/Swash2
SA+3d6,DodgeBonus+1
Uncanny Dodge
Feat: Daring Outlaw

7] R5/Swash2
SA+4d6

8] R6/Swash2
+1(19)Dex,TrapSense+2

9] R7/Swash2
SA+5d6, Feat:Shadow Striker

10] R8/Swash2
DodgeBonus+2,
Improved Uncanny Dodge

11] R9/Swash2
Grace+2,SA+6d6,
TrapSense+3

12] R10/Swash2
+1(20)Dex,Feats:Flick of the Wrist or Improved TWF


13] R11/Swash2
SA+7d6

14] R12/Swash2
TrapSense+4

15] R13/Swash2
SA+8d6,DodgeBonus+3,
Feat:???
Special Ability: INCONSPICUOUSNESS

16] R14/Swash2
+1(21)Dex

17] R15/Swash2
SA+9d6,TrapSense+5,

18] R16/Swash2
SpecialAbility,Feat

19] R17/Swash2
SA+10d6

20] R18/Swash2
DodgeBonus+4,Grace+3,+1(22)Dex

[Grod_The_Giant]

If you're going for a melee build, taking a predominately Swashbuckler build will get you more BAB and more iterative attacks. Take Able Learner at first level and you can keep up your rogue skills.

[Egopunk]

Depends on just how home-brewed the magic system is. I would recommend heading into assassin or it's good variant, avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) to pick up some poison use and spellcasting for versatility if it's not too drastic.

Other than that, you need to decide between the extra rogue skill points and class features and the extra BAB from swashbuckler (might be worth a peak at luck PrCs).

[DrMike105]

I agree with everyone above, in that some more Swashbuckler would improve your BaB. As it stands, you'll have a final BaB of +15. 4 Level of Swashing will give you a final BaB of +16 (and a 4th iterative), while 8 levels will get you a final BaB of +17. Like Grod said, Able Learner would be a great fit.

[Shadow Revenge]

Depends on just how home-brewed the magic system is. I would recommend heading into assassin or it's good variant, avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) to pick up some poison use and spellcasting for versatility if it's not too drastic.

Other than that, you need to decide between the extra rogue skill points and class features and the extra BAB from swashbuckler (might be worth a peak at luck PrCs).

Yeah, it's been expressed to me by players that they expect me to remain the skill monkey. I'm mainly dipping into Swashbuckler for a little extra flavor to my char, a few more hp & class abilities, plus an extra feat, while retaining my SA damage, plus I'm currently on the run from my thieves' guild & planning an elaborate revenge when I'm sufficiently built up (when I multi to Swashbuckler I'll also be changing my appearance & adopting an alias). I only intend for it to be a dip, that way I can still get my rogue class abilities.

[Shadow Revenge]

Depends on just how home-brewed the magic system is. I would recommend heading into assassin or it's good variant, avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) to pick up some poison use and spellcasting for versatility if it's not too drastic.

Other than that, you need to decide between the extra rogue skill points and class features and the extra BAB from swashbuckler (might be worth a peak at luck PrCs).

multi with Assassin for the poison use would be great, but the magic is seriously homebrewed. Spell caster levels in anything wouldn't gain me anything, unless I traded them for skills or something.

btw, does anyone think that third level in Swashbuckler would be worth the time, for hp & Insightful Strike? I'm not too sure about it. Also, I don't see three levels in Swashbuckler, esp at lvl 3-5 really having an impact on BAB. It wouldn't really, would it?

[Shadow Revenge]

I agree with everyone above, in that some more Swashbuckler would improve your BaB. As it stands, you'll have a final BaB of +15. 4 Level of Swashing will give you a final BaB of +16 (and a 4th iterative), while 8 levels will get you a final BaB of +17. Like Grod said, Able Learner would be a great fit.

isn't Able Learner a 1st lvl feat?

if I took Rog2/Swash4, how would that put me over BAB15? don't I have to eat that extra BAB at Rog6&9? sorry, haven't played in awhile.

[Doc_Maynot]

isn't Able Learner a 1st lvl feat?

if I took Rog2/Swash4, how would that put me over BAB15? don't I have to eat that extra BAB at Rog6&9? sorry, haven't played in awhile.

Yes it is unfortunately. If only you would have taken it, I could have recommended for you the Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b) class since you said you were stuck being the skillmonkey.

[Egopunk]

Lets look at when you get your 3rd attack. Current build is 14, whereas the traditional DarOutlw build would give you it at 12 (two level earlier) not much, but it's something. Current build never gets a fourth attack, traditional nets you it at 17th level.

Traditional daring outlaw build is Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16 for reference and finishes with a BAB of 19 compared to the 15 of your build.

Just for comparison purposes mind, the rogue build gets you better skillpoints and skills (and works nicely with skill tricks).

Edit: In addition to the extra attack and just being more likely to hit, the extra BAB helps offset the two weapon fighting penalties.

[Grod_The_Giant]

isn't Able Learner a 1st lvl feat?

if I took Rog2/Swash4, how would that put me over BAB15? don't I have to eat that extra BAB at Rog6&9? sorry, haven't played in awhile.
Sorry, I missed that you had already started play.

Rogue 2/Swash 4/Rogue +14 works out to 16 levels of Rogue and 4 of Swashbuckler. Look at the BAB for a level 16 rogue (+12) and a level 4 swashbuckler (+4) and add them-- you get a total of +16, with is enough to give you your final iterative attack.

[Shadow Revenge]

Sorry, I missed that you had already started play.

Rogue 2/Swash 4/Rogue +14 works out to 16 levels of Rogue and 4 of Swashbuckler. Look at the BAB for a level 16 rogue (+12) and a level 4 swashbuckler (+4) and add them-- you get a total of +16, with is enough to give you your final iterative attack.

oh, okay. sorry, I didn't do the math right. thanks.

Also, what do you guys think about a dagger-bandoleer wearing rogue with Quickdraw & Flick of the Wrist? that seems like a crazy combo to allow almost at will melee range SA, with or without flanking.

[Shadow Revenge]

Lets look at when you get your 3rd attack. Current build is 14, whereas the traditional DarOutlw build would give you it at 12 (two level earlier) not much, but it's something. Current build never gets a fourth attack, traditional nets you it at 17th level.

that looks awesome, I looked that build up (Rogue4/Swash16) but I'm expected to play the skill monkey so that's kind of what I'm stuck with. It looks like I'm going to have to try to get away with four levels in Swashbuckler. Thanks for the help.

Also, what do you guys think are the best skills to put into Skill Mastery?

[Grod_The_Giant]

oh, okay. sorry, I didn't do the math right. thanks.

Also, what do you guys think about a dagger-bandoleer wearing rogue with Quickdraw & Flick of the Wrist? that seems like a crazy combo to allow almost at will melee range SA, with or without flanking.
It only works once per opponent per combat, so not quite as good as you were thinking.

[Shadow Revenge]

It only works once per opponent per combat, so not quite as good as you were thinking.

Oh, yeah. Kind of an only when needed feat. Obviously not what we're looking for. I suppose it might work for dueling or something like that.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Oh, yeah. Kind of an only when needed feat. Obviously not what we're looking for. I suppose it might work for dueling or something like that.
Sneak Attack isn't that hard to trigger, though. Flanking is usually easy enough (grab Wild Cohort if you need a buddy). A wand of swift invisibility or grease plus UMD and 5 ranks in Balance... heck, a bag of marbles and Balance works just as well.

[Shadow Revenge]

Sneak Attack isn't that hard to trigger, though. Flanking is usually easy enough (grab Wild Cohort if you need a buddy). A wand of swift invisibility or grease plus UMD and 5 ranks in Balance... heck, a bag of marbles and Balance works just as well.

I don't know, I just like the idea of some big barbarian getting in my face, & then...
BAM!!!!! Quick Draw + Flick of the Wrist = a ridiculous chance at 5d6SA dmg (& then hide!).
it just looks cool in my head.

[Gwendol]

Try to trade away trap sense for penetrating strike ACF (Dungeonscape): it lets you deal some SA damage to creatures normally immune while flanking.
Insightful strike looks like it will work well for you: +3 damage on every hit is nothing to sneeze at for a TWF build.
Also, add more swash: you need every point of BAB you can get to increase the chances of landing every attack you make.
Finally some way of moving and full attacking will do you good: travel devotion perhaps?

[jokeaccount]

Your feat choices for a sneak attacker are awful...

Consider taking Craven and Staggering Strike at least. Quick Draw is bad and you can generally get by without using it, ever. Shadow Striker looks cool but I would bet you won't be using it all that much. Also if i recall daring outlaw is useless if you take Rogue levels. The whole concept is to take swashbuckler levels for the bab (since the class is useless for anything else) and take full SA progression.

Find a good PrC and pick that in my opinion. Also, don't pick more than 3 rogue levels. The class features become redundant after that. All you need is 2d6 SA evasion and trapsense+1 in order to trade it for Penetrating Strike ACF (if your DM does not allow you to take it simply kill your character and reroll him in order to take it. You will be useless in half the fights without that). After that jump into the PrC bandwagon and become awesome.

Note: Max UMD if wands are left as is from your homebrewed magic system. If they are affected then forget it

[LordHenry]

You should have a look at the Daring Outlaw feat from Complete Scoundrel. It lets you stack your Rogue and Swashbuckler levels for the purposes of SA and some other small goodies.
As others have already said, in terms of power, more Swashbuckler levels (esp. combined with this feat) usually makes for a stronger TWF focused character.
Depending on the power level of this campaign, the feat Craven from Champeons of Ruin might already be too much for your DM.
The Penetrating Strike ACF however, is very much advised as the higher level you get, you tend to fight more and more creatures immune to your signature combat style, sneak attacking and that is rather boring.

If you have trouble hitting enemies, consider a Wand of Wraithstrike, hitting touch AC should not be a problem.
For later levels, a Ring of Blinking might be great for easy qualification for SA