[PF] Summoner : Summoning or eidoloying ?

[Roncorps]

First, I must say that I've read the summoner handbook and some other summoning handbook.

But, but ... I can't seem to decide eidolon or summoning, using something like the Master summoner archetype.

1. Do summoning truly destroy game(fight) economy ? Is there a way to be able to have lots of summon but not making the party seem secondary to the game aka not soloing ?

2. Eidolon, I don't know if it's that it seem like playing Pokemon, but I"m not able to make a mental image of having/using one. Is it like a golem, but faster ? Are they useful to the party ?

What are the cons and pro of being a eidolon summoner vs a summoning summoner ? I've read many ''Eidolon can do that'', but not much about VS summon.

Thanks a lot !

[Erik Vale]

With planning, a Summoning Summoner can break the game by abusing action economy/having multiple characters to attack with, but only in specific ways, due to the fact their summons last for extended periods.

In 'surprise' fights, summons normally don't last that long, acting more like DOT spells or one shot damage spells that also soak up enemy actions.

Eidelon's though, I don't use as much.

[Psyren]

If you're not gonna use the eidolon, why be a summoner? You may as well be a Conjurer, Cleric/Druid or Preservationist Alchemist.

[Roncorps]

For what I've read, summoner got summon monster as a SLA + spells, so he can summon a lot more a day. (5 + CHA, so a easy 9 times a day)

It's not that I'm not planning to use my eidolon (the master summoner can summon with is eidolon active), it's just that I'm weighting the pro and con of full eidolon vs full summoning.

And going with the full summoning road, the eidolon cannot go beyond caster level 10, so what would be his use when he can't be strong (stealth eidolon mostly ?)

[Erik Vale]

SLA Summon Monster at highest level you can reach.
That each use only a standard action.
And last Hours/level, not rounds/level

[ArqArturo]

Well, it depends. Eidolons can be pretty damn OP, but the summoning feats are soo good.

But, all in all, when I see summoners, I think they want to be the very best, like no one ever was. To summon them, is their real test, to pump them is their cause.

[Grod_The_Giant]

At least in 3.5, summons are useful primarily for their SLAs, with a side order of distraction in combat. Eidolons, on the other hand, are less versatile but have a lot more raw combat power. (Pounce + extra arms ad nauseum?)

EDIT: Also, obligatory handbook link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184592).

[NightbringerGGZ]

Mass summoning with the Master Summoner archetype is very effective in combat, but tends to be less fun for the other group members. Having to sit around while one player dominates the encounter mechanically and takes significantly more time than anybody else just gets dull.

Personally I'm a fan of using the Eidolon. Even without perfect optimization it makes an effective fighter and your summoner has good CC spell usage. I played a purposefully non-optimized build for a few months and was still very effective in combat. Remember that you can still cast the summon monster spells with an Eidolon in play, they just don't last for more than rounds/level.

[Slipperychicken]

SLA Summon Monster at highest level you can reach.
That each use only a standard action.
And last Hours/level, not rounds/level

It's minutes/level, actually.


Starting at 1st level, a summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. Drawing upon this ability uses up the same power as the summoner uses to call his eidolon. As a result, he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned. He can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per level). At 3rd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the power of this ability increases by one spell level, allowing him to summon more powerful creatures (to a maximum of summon monster IX at 17th level). At 19th level, this ability can be used as gate or summon monster IX. If used as gate, the summoner must pay any required material components. A summoner cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster or gate immediately ends. These summon spells are considered to be part of his spell list for the purposes of spell trigger and spell completion items. In addition, he can expend uses of this ability to fufill the construction requirements of any magic item he creates, so long as he can use this ability to cast the required spell.

Also, summoners' spellcasting alone puts them on the sorcerer's level at CC and buffing (don't let the max level fool you: they have a strong list, and get a lot of good control/buff spells, sometimes before the Wizard does), which are some of the best ways to spend spells. However, while they lack the spells/day to really act like fullcasters, the summons and eidolon make up for it.

[137beth]

If you're not gonna use the eidolon, why be a summoner? You may as well be a Conjurer, Cleric/Druid or Preservationist Alchemist.

Master summoner archetype.

[Spore]

If you're not gonna use the eidolon, why be a summoner? You may as well be a Conjurer, Cleric/Druid or Preservationist Alchemist.

Skilldolon. Like having an actually competent rogue for once.

[Slipperychicken]

Master summoner archetype.

This. Master Summoner + Maxed out Charisma + Augment Summoning + Superior Summoning = Tons of strong, disposable minions each day. You can play tank, DPS, and buffing all at the same time. Played properly, you could be a one-man party.

[Roncorps]

This. Master Summoner + Maxed out Charisma + Augment Summoning + Superior Summoning = Tons of strong, disposable minions each day. You can play tank, DPS, and buffing all at the same time. Played properly, you could be a one-man party.

But can you not be a one-man party when using all the summons ? Are they versatile enough to not make you the one-man party by helping everyone else ? I know it depends mostly on the PC, but does the summon list can help it or it's more like ''Urrrr, destroy, smash, kill before everyone else'' from low to mid-high end ? At high end (VIII, IX) you got some pretty useful summon like the trumpet archon for healing and buffing, but that's a level 16 summon.

[Raven777]

... and fight to the Pokemon season 1 theme.

EDIT : Summoned Monsters Utility : see this list (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iJ3uBI7QuRjwRQvLYuNBsdqNPxmM9ZZ2Jky4Zx2ELTg/edit).

The spell like abilities, spells and combat maneuvers of the different critters are what you want to be looking at. Lantern Archons can be universal translators. Babaus can dispel and see invisibility. Mephits and Elementals can excavate. Lilends have a +2 Bardic Performance. Succubus can pull off Enchantment shenanigans. These sort of things.

[Slipperychicken]

But can you not be a one-man party when using all the summons ? Are they versatile enough to not make you the one-man party by helping everyone else ? I know it depends mostly on the PC, but does the summon list can help it or it's more like ''Urrrr, destroy, smash, kill before everyone else'' from low to mid-high end ? At high end (VIII, IX) you got some pretty useful summon like the trumpet archon for healing and buffing, but that's a level 16 summon.

If you want to buff or lay down control spells, that's what your spell slots are for.

If you want to heal, that's what your CLW wand, huge Charisma, and ranks in UMD are for.

Or skip the UMD ranks and take either Infernal Healing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/infernal-healing) or a wand of it, which is much more efficient (10 hp vs 4.5 average hp) in most cases for out-of-combat healing, but CLW can heal any damage. You can always take both spells in wand form, and just use CLW in the edge cases where you get hit with silver/good weapons.

Summons, particularly elementals, can provide great utility in addition to smashing. Look for any summon with special abilities -there are a bunch of them (A list of summons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-monster) is underneath the spell description). Don't forget they can always serve as flank buddies, distractions, meatshields... all the things you can expect a Fighter to do, plus so much more.

Even when you're out of summons, you can call on your fully-customizable Eidolon, which can be built for a number of roles.

[Psyren]

Skilldolon. Like having an actually competent rogue for once.

A Skilldolon is, in fact, an eidolon and thus does not negate my point.


Master summoner archetype.

Master Summoners get an eidolon too and therefore this does not negate my point.

[Roncorps]

A Skilldolon is, in fact, an eidolon and thus does not negate my point.

But using the eidolon as a skilldolon negate it. You were saying ''If not using eidolon, why Summoner ?''

What I ask is more ''What could the eidolon do when the main focus is summoning and via Master Summoner, you can only get to Eido lvl 10''

[Kane0]

What you really should be asking yourself is: "Do I want to be a minionmaster, or have a kickass bodyguard?"

[Psyren]

But using the eidolon as a skilldolon negate it. You were saying ''If not using eidolon, why Summoner ?''

Do you not see the contradiction in these two sentences? If you are using it then you are using it. It doesn't matter what for.

[Roncorps]

Do you not see the contradiction in these two sentences? If you are using it then you are using it. It doesn't matter what for.

Yes, that's the point. I didn't say anything about not using the eidolon, but about not using it to it fullest because of the summoning. If we go to your first post, you ask why summoner, be something else.

Yes, I don't really like eidolon (I'm trying here to find some love about it from people who know what a crippled eidolon can do), but summoner via master summoner archetype seem to be a best at summoning stuff.

Edit : I really don't see the contradiction in what I wrote. I must admit that I'm tired and probably should stop marking work session or all my students gonna 1. Pass because I don't see their mistakes or 2. Fail, because I invented mistakes in their work.

[Slipperychicken]

A Skilldolon is, in fact, an eidolon and thus does not negate my point.

Master Summoners get an eidolon too and therefore this does not negate my point.

One of the appeals of Summoner is that you get a preposterous number of max-level summons per day (upwards of 10, especially if you went Master Summoner), much more than if you took a Sorcerer or Wizard, and doing all that summoning doesn't eat into your spells per day, like it would for a Wizard or Druid. Plus the summons lasting for minutes per level makes it easy to "pre-summon" in anticipation of a fight, or even make summons last through multiple fights in a row, both of which can be a huge advantage, which Wizards have a hard time replicating.

I played a Master Summoner from levels 1 to about 8-ish, and pretty much forgot about my Eidolon after 3rd level. I didn't even bother updating its statblock, and my DM was annoyed because he had a really cool personality and a ton of running gags he wanted to use with the Eidolon. So you can absolutely play a summoner without touching the eidolon.

[Psyren]

You said "eidolon OR summoning," which I took to mean one or the other.

If that's not what you meant then fine.

[Roncorps]

Ah. I should have said ''Main focus : summon or eidolon''. I didn't intend something like one or the other but not both.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

But, all in all, when I see summoners, I think they want to be the very best, like no one ever was. To summon them, is their real test, to pump them is their cause.

Eidolon, you're my best friend

You buff me and I buff you

EidoLON!

[Bhaakon]

Tangentially related:

Can you play a summoner that uses neither eidolon nor summon SLAs?

It's still a medium BAB, d8 HD character with 2/3rds casting and a strong spell list that can cast in armor. It's still tier 3, I think.

[Slipperychicken]

Tangentially related:

Can you play a summoner that uses neither eidolon nor summon SLAs?

It's still a medium BAB, d8 HD character with 2/3rds casting and a strong spell list that can cast in armor. It's still tier 3, I think.

I mean, at that point it's pretty much a Bard with no class features and much worse skills. The spell list might lets it squeeze into T3 if done right, most likely T4 or even T5 depending on how poorly the spells known are selected. The stripped-down summoner has almost nothing going for it outside of half-casting, item use, and mediocre combat skill. The character will have little to do when his few spells known aren't appropriate to the situation, and will be boned once the spells run out.

[Roncorps]

I saw that summoner are not feat hungry. Going with Master Summoner archetype, I auto gain the Augment Summoning feat and don't even need Spell Focus (Conjuration). 3th level feat would be Superior Summoning, but that's it. One feat taken .... Would something like Good Summoning (add lot's of celestial and things like Kirin to the summon list) be worth it ? And crafting stuff ? Woundrous, wand, etc. ? So many feat not taken and so many option. More summon ? Spell penetration ?

[Stux]

Focusing on summoning isn't necessarily wasting you Eidolon.

Instead of making your Eidolon useful in combat, give it a load of skill buffs and some flight. Use it to solve things OOC.

[Spore]

A Skilldolon is, in fact, an eidolon and thus does not negate my point.

I wasn't talking about not using it at all. I was thinking about using one strictly out of combat. I made a concept in which the Eidolon is basically a skilled but stupid treasure hunter, who cowers in fear behind the halfling summoner (and I'd make him large just for giggles), basically a master summoner which a eidolon that approximates a rogue of two levels lower.

[Slipperychicken]

I saw that summoner are not feat hungry. Going with Master Summoner archetype, I auto gain the Augment Summoning feat and don't even need Spell Focus (Conjuration). 3th level feat would be Superior Summoning, but that's it. One feat taken .... Would something like Good Summoning (add lot's of celestial and things like Kirin to the summon list) be worth it ? And crafting stuff ? Woundrous, wand, etc. ? So many feat not taken and so many option. More summon ? Spell penetration ?

If your main schtick is summoning, it doesn't matter much in terms of power what feats you grab after Superior Summoning.

There are a number of possibilities. One could start grabbing craft feats to save money on wands and other items (remember that you don't need the prereq spells yourself, just get someone who does have it to contribute the spell to the process). Or take extra summoning if you just want to spam more summons to trample encounters even harder. Or take martial feats so you can participate in melee as a flank-buddy. Or leadership if you're a terrible munchkin who wants to crush he game under the weight of his actions.

I would think twice about spell penetration, as your main trick (summoning, buffing) already handles spell-resistant enemies. Feats like Good Summoning are nice if you have a use in mind for it. Extend Spell can be nice for stretching your hour/level spells into all-day buffs.

One sort-of-abusive trick is to take Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal) in addition to Superior Summoning. If you get far enough into that feat chain, it says that you always get an extra demon whenever you summon demons, and Superior Summoning says you get an extra creature when you summon multiple creatures. That means your highest level summon spells get 3 demons (one base, one from Eldritch Heritage, a third from Superior Summoning) into play instead of just one. However, that takes almost all of your feats.

I would recommend either getting extra summons, or using feats to make yourself useful in another area (like crafting, or casting) if you already have enough summons.

[stack]

I saw that summoner are not feat hungry. Going with Master Summoner archetype, I auto gain the Augment Summoning feat and don't even need Spell Focus (Conjuration). 3th level feat would be Superior Summoning, but that's it. One feat taken .... Would something like Good Summoning (add lot's of celestial and things like Kirin to the summon list) be worth it ? And crafting stuff ? Woundrous, wand, etc. ? So many feat not taken and so many option. More summon ? Spell penetration ?

I think summon good monster adds a lot, though if you don't want the alignment restriction you can give all your summons ferocity with ferocious summons, though its for half orcs only. Item crafting is good is you have time, wonder outs being the best bang for your feat.

[Spore]

You could focus your efforts (feat wise) into buffing your group. Be it meta magic (extend etc.) or item creation (wondrous items) or both.

If I'd to be playing a master summoner, I would create a scouting eidolon, get Augment Summoning, Summon Good Monsters, Craft Wondrous Items and then probably start taking general feats (Toughness, Improve Initiative, Combat Casting).

[Slipperychicken]

You could focus your efforts (feat wise) into buffing your group. Be it meta magic (extend etc.) or item creation (wondrous items) or both.

If I'd to be playing a master summoner, I would create a scouting eidolon, get Augment Summoning, Summon Good Monsters, Craft Wondrous Items and then probably start taking general feats (Toughness, Improve Initiative, Combat Casting).

Seconding Improved Initiative. It's one thing to have a boatload of minions, but another thing entirely to have them all go first :smallbiggrin:

[Vortenger]

How many players are in your group? 4-5? Master summoner can be very time intensive to run. By that I mean when you have two sets of 1d4+2 (average of 9 creatures) creatures roaming the battlefield, yourself and your eidolon, you have 11 dudes worth of actions to take. No one is going to want to wait for their turn. If your group is good with that, then I'd suggest making your eidolon into a perception-bot flank buddy.

Personally, I made a vanilla summoner to focus on summoning and party face-ing, made my eidolon the party rogue, and grabbed eldritch heritage:Sylvan and bonded companion to pick up an animal companion to serve as the BSF. Combat triggers a readied action to banish the eidolon, so I'm ready to summon my single summon effect when initiative is rolled (edit: this is summation, the act of doing this is usually a bit more intensive.) . So far this works fantastically, giving me plenty of presence on the battlefield, while not taking too much time away from other players.

In the end whether you go the summoning route or you buff your killer pouncing centaur into the stratosphere, you get a fun and powerful character. Just pick which flavor you like and go nuts.

[Slipperychicken]

How many players are in your group? 4-5? Master summoner can be very time intensive to run. By that I mean when you have two sets of 1d4+2 (average of 9 creatures) creatures roaming the battlefield, yourself and your eidolon, you have 11 dudes worth of actions to take. No one is going to want to wait for their turn. If your group is good with that, then I'd suggest making your eidolon into a perception-bot flank buddy.


You can let other players and the DM control some of your summons for you (he was fond of giving them personalities and roleplaying them). It worked pretty well for me.


Also, you (EDIT: As a Master Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/master-summoner)) can't have more than 1 Summon Monster SLA active alongside your Eidolon. If you want more, you have to either spend spell slots or dismiss the Eidolon. (More Editing: This makes sense because the Master Summoner's Eidolon is nerfed, so it doesn't totally shatter the game).

[upho]

1. Do summoning truly destroy game(fight) economy ? Is there a way to be able to have lots of summon but not making the party seem secondary to the game aka not soloing ?I'd say this is highly dependent on level and the rest of the party. With only tier 1-2 PC's in the party, especially if in mid+ levels, I'd say "highly unlikely", but otherwise I'd say the problems with the Master Summoner is very similar to that of, for example, druids, wizards and human sorcerers in PF. Which is basically that the Master Summoner requires you, the player, to have a high degree of system master and to be very careful of how you build and play your PC in order not to ruin party balance (thus making the DM's job hell and the game less fun for everyone). This is somewhat true for the vanilla summoner as well, but that class is more tier 2 and a lot easier to adapt to your party IMO.


2. Eidolon, I don't know if it's that it seem like playing Pokemon, but I"m not able to make a mental image of having/using one. Is it like a golem, but faster ? Are they useful to the party ?Most definitely. They can be built to be at least as effective in virtually all combat roles (besides ranged) as any non-caster PC can be, and they can be awesome scouts and/or skill monkeys. Their "immortal" nature is, by itself, a huge advantage in most situations. As an example, my 6th level vanilla summoner has only used the SM SLA ability a total of two times so far, both times simply because the eidolon couldn't be summoned in time, not because any of the SM creatures were more suitable. Though in most campaigns, I believe that will likely change the higher up the levels you are - which is the main reason the Master Summoner is, overall, more flexible and powerful. See more below.

In terms of mental images, I think of the eidolon as one of near infinite ways to physically manifest the summoner's soul and personality. For example, my current summoner's eidolon looks like something best described as a larger furry and one-legged version of Mike Wazovski (http://monster.wikia.com/wiki/Mike_Wazowski), and his personality resembles that of a big and very friendly playful dog (he has a hard time grasping things like personal space and usually believes almost everyone he meets is good deep down, and the only reason they wouldn't want to socialize with him is that they've trust issues stemming from a life full of betrayals). This reflects my summoner's positive outlook on life and his out-going, social and rather innocent trusting nature.

Hope that helps!


Mass summoning with the Master Summoner archetype is very effective in combat, but tends to be less fun for the other group members. Having to sit around while one player dominates the encounter mechanically and takes significantly more time than anybody else just gets dull.

Personally I'm a fan of using the Eidolon. Even without perfect optimization it makes an effective fighter and your summoner has good CC spell usage. I played a purposefully non-optimized build for a few months and was still very effective in combat. Remember that you can still cast the summon monster spells with an Eidolon in play, they just don't last for more than rounds/level.I'm playing a vanilla summoner in a quite recently started PF campaign (my group's first), and I have to agree with the above. I'm personally also a fan of using the eidolon, but even with a vanilla summoner you really have to work in order to not steal too much combat play time, hog the limelight and overshadow the other PC's in their particular areas of expertise. Of course, if your party consists of tier 1-2 PC's, this soon becomes a non-issue, but if the party is centered around tier 3 (as in my case) the vanilla summoner can easily become a problem and the Master Summoner even more so. And if you have, say, a more typical fighter or rogue in the party, you'd probably have to consciously nerf your PC to avoid glaring balance problems that easily ruins the fun.

I think the Master Summoner has a somewhat less front-loaded power development than the vanilla version. I had to be careful when choosing evos in early levels, or the eidolon would easily become a better melee striker and/or scout than the best specialized PC in the group could be. (4 EPs can for example result in 3 full BAB attacks with pounce combined with a +12 to perception and a +14 to stealth, fully possible at level 1 at the cost of one feat.) But a few levels later, I would have had to consciously optimize the eidolon towards a certain end to keep it being the best in the party, making it less of a risk that it "steals" another PC's area of expertise, much less overshadows everyone's. But I believe a Master Summoner starts slightly weaker and then grows considerably in power and flexibility due to the non-linear power differences between SM spell levels and, potentially, the accumulation of feats affecting the SLA. So from, say, mid levels and upwards, I'd say a Master Summoner tends to be much more of a tier 1 class than a vanilla summoner can be:
This. Master Summoner + Maxed out Charisma + Augment Summoning + Superior Summoning = Tons of strong, disposable minions each day. You can play tank, DPS, and buffing all at the same time. Played properly, you could be a one-man party.Exactly like that. Not to mention your summon's SLAs combined with your high UMD skill means you'd probably have access to many more spells and daily slots than implied by your class' limited spell list. Your high Cha would also allow you to become something of a Diplomancer at the same time, adding additional OoC flexibility and power. Granted, the vanilla summoner can also do all of this, but not nearly to the same extent.


You can let other players and the DM control some of your summons for you (he was fond of giving them personalities and roleplaying them). It worked pretty well for me.This is a very good suggestion, I think. I brought this up with my group before we started the game and the other players were all interested in helping out if I would end up with more than two creatures to control in combat.


Also, you can't have more than 1 Summon Monster SLA active alongside your Eidolon. If you want more, you have to either spend spell slots or dismiss the Eidolon.Actually, the Summon Monster SLA rules say:
Drawing upon this ability uses up the same power as the summoner uses to call his eidolon. As a result, he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/#TOC-Summon-Monster-I-Sp-)(My emphasis.) This means it's perfectly possible to dismiss your eidolon, use the SM SLA (a standard action) and then summon your eidolon again (a 1-minute ritual). So starting at level 2, you're able to have both your eidolon and whatever number of SM creatures you may get through the SLA simultaneously present for level -1 minutes, without having to spend any regular spell slots. Whether that's RAI or not is completely unknown AFAIK. Are you still considered to be using the mentioned "summoning power" after having used (cast) your SM SLA if your SM creatures are still present? Personally, unless I had read similar rules items where clarifications/errata have later proven my guess of the RAI to be wrong, I'd definitely say the above is fully possible according to RAI. Why else the explicit exclusion of one possibility (SM SLA with eidolon present), but not the other (summoning eidolon with SM SLA creatures present)?

[Slipperychicken]

Actually, the Summon Monster SLA rules say: (My emphasis.)

This means it's perfectly possible to dismiss your eidolon, use the SM SLA (a standard action) and then summon your eidolon again (a 1-minute ritual). So starting at level 2, you're able to have both your eidolon and whatever number of SM creatures you may get through the SLA simultaneously present for level -1 minutes, without having to spend any regular spell slots. Whether that's RAI or not is completely unknown AFAIK. Are you still considered to be using the mentioned "summoning power" after having used (cast) your SM SLA if your SM creatures are still present? Personally, unless I had read similar rules items where clarifications/errata have later proven my guess of the RAI to be wrong, I'd definitely say the above is fully possible according to RAI. Why else the explicit exclusion of one possibility (SM SLA with eidolon present), but not the other (summoning eidolon with SM SLA creatures present)?

My bad. I was thinking of the Master Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/master-summoner) archetype, which works as I said.


Summoning Mastery (Sp)

Starting at 1st level, a master summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 5 + his Charisma modifier. The summoner can use this ability when his eidolon is summoned. Only one summon monster spell may be in effect while the eidolon is summoned. If the summoner’s eidolon is not summoned, the number of creatures that can be summoned with this ability is only limited by its uses per day. This ability otherwise functions as the summoner’s normal summon monster I ability. Other than these restrictions, there is no limit to how many summon monster or gate spells the summoner can have active at one time.

[upho]

My bad. I was thinking of the Master Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/master-summoner) archetype, which works as I said.Oh, no, my bad - I should've understood you were referring to the Master Summoner, the context really made it quite clear. Sorry.

[137beth]

Master Summoners get an eidolon too and therefore this does not negate my point.

Except that if you want to use the master summoner archetype to its full potential, you have to keep your eidolon uncalled (i.e., not use it) either all or almost all of the time. If you want to use an eidolon, you really shouldn't take the master summoner archetype.

[Slipperychicken]

Except that if you want to use the master summoner archetype to its full potential, you have to keep your eidolon uncalled (i.e., not use it) either all or almost all of the time. If you want to use an eidolon, you really shouldn't take the master summoner archetype.

It's only a Standard Action to dismiss it, so you could keep it out for noncombat tasks, then dismiss it either when you expect a fight, or once you want to pull out your second summon for a fight.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

There has been a ruling (at least for PFS) at animal companions, summons, familiars, and eidolons don't automatically go on the same initiative as the player, I believe.

[kestrel404]

1. Do summoning truly destroy game(fight) economy ? Is there a way to be able to have lots of summon but not making the party seem secondary to the game aka not soloing ?

2. Eidolon, I don't know if it's that it seem like playing Pokemon, but I"m not able to make a mental image of having/using one. Is it like a golem, but faster ? Are they useful to the party ?


I'm sure others are doing well in answering your question directly. However, if you want and example, here is an Arena Style PVP (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265567) wherein I've got an Eidolon-summoner (actually, I'm using a Familiar & Animal Companion as well, but the Eidolon is the most powerful of the group).

Considering the build involved is call 'The Party of One', and it was designed to do a lot more than just fight in the arena, it's a pretty good example of what you're asking about.

[Lord Vukodlak]

There has been a ruling (at least for PFS) at animal companions, summons, familiars, and eidolons don't automatically go on the same initiative as the player, I believe.

This is true, however its much less of a headache if they act on the controllers turn.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I generally have them hold until my turn. Easier with familiars.