What (non-subsystem) prestige classes extend the few monk abilities that matter?

[gorilla-turtle]

Sacred Fist (or Divine Class XYZ) is not an answer.

Unarmed Swordsage (or Base Class XYZ with IUS) is not an answer.

Enlightened Fist (or Arcane Class XYZ) is not an answer.

Tashalatora (or Psionic Class XYZ) is not an answer.

I think that's most of the standard, knee jerk "not even bothering" responses to monk threads in the past. I'm not interested in any of them, though.

The Monk has several abilities I'm actually interested in for a character I'm building, and few of the above progress any of them: AC Bonus, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, and Unarmored Speed. The Monk also gains a few additional features that are actually interesting (and, again, the first 4 standard answers don't usually advance any of them): Bonus Feats, Evasion, Ki Strike, Purity of Body, Improved Evasion, Diamond Body, Timeless Soul, and Timeless Body.

However, even ignoring a few of the later abilities gained, it's obvious that one probably doesn't have to take a lot of monk levels to get the bulk of it's abilities before going into another class or prestige class that does. So far the only prestige class I've found that gets most of those abilities and still progresses everything I -do- want from the Monk while not bothering with the rest of the bull crap is the Tattooed Monk.

I'm okay with it, but wanted to see if the board knew of any other prestige classes that are an upgrade to the standard monk: progressing the few abilities that matter, possibly gaining a few of the other features that don't suck, and getting rid of the rest of the trash of the class.

[shaikujin]

I don't fully understand the question :

Can you elaborate more on the criteria and why Sacred Fist or Enlightened Fist don't count for your requirements?

I know the standard knee jerk reaction to Monk questions and feel some of them is unwarranted too. I'm don't mean use them instead of Monk levels, but instead, use them on top of Monk levels to improve them.

What about Psionic Fist, Shadow Sun Ninja, Shou Disciple and Fist of the Forest? Which of these would count?

Are you interested in Monk ACFs or substitution levels?

What about other ways to improve a particular Monk class ability like raising unarmed damage progression using feats and items?

Or Flurry with other weapons?

Or ways to keep these abilities while armored?

[Psyren]

By Timeless Soul, did you mean Diamond Soul?

I'm going to assume that every ability you didn't mention, you consider to be a "trash" ability. These would be Still Mind, Slow Fall, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, Empty Body, Quivering Palm, Abundant Step, and Perfect Self. Were there any of those you wanted to keep?

[ArqArturo]

Initiate of Pistis Sophia. But, that PrC has a lot of prerequisites.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Initiate of Pistis Sophia. But, that PrC has a lot of prerequisites.

Kill it, KILL IT WITH FIRE.

(I entered the Iron Chef with that PrC. Good gods...)

[NamelessNPC]

If you like all of those monk abilities, why do you want to prc out?

[Psyren]

OP may have stepped away but anyway - the Pathfinder Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk), specifically the Qinggong archetype, (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/qinggong-monk) will let you keep exactly those abilities you want from the base monk and drop just the ones you don't want to have.

[JaronK]

Shou Disciple. It's what you want.

JaronK

[Psyren]

The problem with Shou Disciple is that it only progresses unarmed damage, bonus feats and flurry. I personally think it's a decent tradeoff but he appears to want to keep the other things.

[ArqArturo]

Kill it, KILL IT WITH FIRE.

(I entered the Iron Chef with that PrC. Good gods...)

I believe they gain resistance to fire. That and evasion.

[TuggyNE]

I believe they gain resistance to fire. That and evasion.

This is why you should kill things with acid. Preferably no save.

:smallwink:

[gorilla-turtle]

@ shaikujin, you have it right in the title of the post. This character is to avoid other subsystems of 3.5, particularly subsystems that essentially make it more of something else than it is actually a monk (even if the something else's are even better at being a monk in flavor than an actual monk is). Not to mention that there are a few things out of the monk that I do actually want, which most things don't progress.

Shadow Sun Ninja and Psionic Fist are all but in name called out in the op post and title: being part of another sub system alone makes them not count. Shou Disciple misses out on Greater Flurry and doesn't advance Speed or AC, and Fist of the Forest doesn't strictly advance anything Monk related (just gives out a few abilities that could conceivably stack, though at the cost of 2 feats not otherwise to be used in the build), and the code of conduct greatly clashes with the character.

As for other advice, I was focusing on just prestige classes so I could decide levels, and feats and items I'd be doing after that, but I suppose figuring a bit of them out now wouldn't be bad. I could make use of some of the ACFs to replace Slowfall, Still Mind and Wholeness of Body (since my current Monk 10 / Tattooed Monk 10 only gains them so far), and I wouldn't be adverse to any other ideas that don't detract from anything I'm already after. Improved Natural Attack would provide a decent damage upgrade, or so I'm aware... one thought: If one is allowed to make a Full Attack Action at the end of a Charge (be it through a Barb Dip for Pounce or through Lion Tribe Warrior), could one do a Flurry of Blows from that?

I was under the assumption that Shou Disciple was the only way to flurry with other weapons, baring 1-2 feats that unlock it with a specific weapon, and in any case you'd be losing your unarmed damage, would you not? And while this character is fine without armor, I am curious as to how you'd keep all of these abilities and be armored.

@ Psyren, right on (almost) all accounts (including me not giving the monk name for Timeless Body. Only exception is that Purity of Body isn't a bad ability.):

Still Mind: Not much to joke about, but not much of an ability at all, to be honest.
Slow Fall: Not only is this equivalent to a 1st level spell, it's not even fully effective even at 20th level.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon: By 17th level, the party face has enough ranks in languages or access to tongues.
Wholeness of Body: Given this is a melee class, which means needing extra constitution to function in the front lines, the piss poor amount of healing this ability provides is laughable.
Empty Body: Even if it's a 9th level spell, I still can't say I see the use of this ability on a base class like the Monk, let alone with the use being so limited.
Quivering Palm: Cool in theory, but super limited in practice.
Abundant Step: Limited in power, and once a day. Not seeing the use.
Perfect Self: Dr Magic by level 20 is sure to be beaten by practically everything, and being turned into an Outsider, for some reason I was under the assumption that was actually a nerf to the class despite the intent of it being super awesome (no more enlarge person buffs, for example).

@ ArqArturo, the exalted feats, both to get in and that are forced on you once you do get in, make this an unattractive alternative. For a pure good monk, maybe.

@ Nameless NPC, I like most of the monk abilities. But a good amount of them are garbage. I merely wanted to min-max a monk build for a project I have in mind. As I mentioned in the Op, I did find one such class that gets everything I wanted and a few other options as well (Tattooed Monk with Crane and Phoenix gets two of the most important late level Monk abilities, with 3 more optional additional abilities to take, such as White Mask, Falcon, or Unicorn). I just wanted to see if (given the admitedly stringent requirements impossed) this was the best I could probably do.

@ Psyren, I don't know if Pathfinder will count as a subsystem for this or not, so I'm going to assume not for now. Goodness Pathfinder hit the Monk with the Buff stick, didn't they?

@ Killing it with fire, it gets Electric Resistance, not Fire. Go ahead and burn it down.

[TuggyNE]

being turned into an Outsider, for some reason I was under the assumption that was actually a nerf to the class despite the intent of it being super awesome (no more enlarge person buffs, for example).

It's potentially a nerf, yes. It's not much of a buff for most purposes, but it does give you immunity to a few harmful lower-level spells (and requires augments on some lower-level harmful powers). Unfortunately, your high Will save, moderate Wis focus, and Still Mind should already handle all of those, never mind how passe they are at 20 anyway, so it's kind of redundant.

[shaikujin]

Shadow Sun Ninja and Psionic Fist are all but in name called out in the op post and title: being part of another sub system alone makes them not count. Shou Disciple misses out on Greater Flurry and doesn't advance Speed or AC


You only need 11 monk level equivalents to get Greater Flurry though, so you should be still be able to fit in Shou Disciple and get Greater Flurry.

While the class doesn't advance speed, but it does advance AC faster. Monk gains +1 AC for every 5 levels. Shou Disciple gains 3 dodge bonus to AC in 3 levels.

But instead of the standard Dodge feat, see if you are allowed to use one of the variant Dodge feats, like Expeditious Dodge (RoW), Desert Wind Dodge (ToB), Midnight Dodge (MoI) which will apply to all opponents, instead of just a single opponent.

Tattooed monk is pretty good since you are looking to be more monkish. Another PrC that could work is Shintao monk (OA). Take 1 level to get that extra feat, 1d4+1 bonus to any stat for 1 hour, plus still improving monk abilities.





one thought: If one is allowed to make a Full Attack Action at the end of a Charge (be it through a Barb Dip for Pounce or through Lion Tribe Warrior), could one do a Flurry of Blows from that?


Yes.





I was under the assumption that Shou Disciple was the only way to flurry with other weapons, baring 1-2 feats that unlock it with a specific weapon, and in any case you'd be losing your unarmed damage, would you not? And while this character is fine without armor, I am curious as to how you'd keep all of these abilities and be armored.


Yes, Shou Disciple would work for Flurry, so will any one the feats. If you have a weapon with the Aptitude ability (ToB), then you can flurry with any type of weapon. Giving the weapon the Morphing ability would be good too.

Unarmed damage can be applied to weapons via the Scorpion Karma. So you get the best of both worlds. Raise base damage to 2D10, boost it further by increasing actual/virtual size until the weapon's base damage is 12d8.

Argent Fist (Faiths or Eberron) allows AC bonus while armored.

Shou Disciple will allow Flurry while armored.

I don't know a way to keep unarmored speed bonus while wearing armor though.

Hope it helps.

[ShurikVch]

Acolyte of the Fist (DR296)
Arcanopath Monk (DR281 p35)
Drunken Master (CWar p27)
Jordain (https://ww2.wizards.com/books/mirrorstone/Article.aspx?doc=fr_jordain)
Monk of the Enabled Hand (DR299)
Monk of the Long Death (PGF p65)
Poison Fist (DR289 p47)
Reaper’s Child (DR299)
Weightless Foot (DR289 p51)
Zerth Cenobite (DR281 p33)

Shens (DR319 p70-74)
Crane
Dragon
Mantis
Monkey
Panther
Snake
Tiger

Master of the ... Wind (DR314 p34-37)
East - hybrid monk/arcane casters
North - hybrid monk/druid
South - hybrid monk/rogue
West - hybrid monk/cleric

Psionic-related:
Mindknight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20020819a)
Truth Seeker (DR281)
Diamond Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020927b)

[JusticeZero]

I am going to ask what I ask everyone else who asks about Monks here.

What part of your concept dictates the use of that one specific class? The general concept of "Unarmed and unarmored mystic kung-fu warrior" is not unique to that class. They can be built from level 1 in a variety of ways using classes that are simply better designed and more effective.

[JaronK]

Shou Disciple misses out on Greater Flurry and doesn't advance Speed or AC,

It advances Flurry, which could be read as giving Greater Flurry. It's a 3.0 class after all. It does advance AC even faster than normal Monk levels. The only thing it doesn't give of this list is the speed boost, but instead it grants higher BAB. A worthy trade, to be sure, plus it means you can flurry with reach weapons if you want.

JaronK

[Captnq]

I am going to ask what I ask everyone else who asks about Monks here.

What part of your concept dictates the use of that one specific class? The general concept of "Unarmed and unarmored mystic kung-fu warrior" is not unique to that class. They can be built from level 1 in a variety of ways using classes that are simply better designed and more effective.

Because all the really good rules abuse needs that first level. After level 1, yeah, bunch of stuff you can go into. But there's some monk only stuff that you need that one level for.

Oh! BTW, Just discovered armor for monks!

The Beekeeper's Outfit! It's armor, yet it's not armor! So a monk can by RAW enchant it with Armor special abilities and enhancement bonuses to AC without losing your monk abilities when you wear it! Goes right up there with the Ward Cestus, the Necklace of Natural Weapons, and Bracers of Striking.

[ArqArturo]

It advances Flurry, which could be read as giving Greater Flurry. It's a 3.0 class after all. It does advance AC even faster than normal Monk levels. The only thing it doesn't give of this list is the speed boost, but instead it grants higher BAB. A worthy trade, to be sure, plus it means you can flurry with reach weapons if you want.

JaronK

That means that I could do a Power-Attack/Flurry of Blows combo with a falchion?.

[Fax Celestis]

What about Cloud Anchorite, or am I totally misremembering that class?

[JaronK]

That means that I could do a Power-Attack/Flurry of Blows combo with a falchion?.

If you wanted. I'd prefer a reach weapon, personally.

JaronK

[ArqArturo]

What about Cloud Anchorite, or am I totally misremembering that class?

It only upgrades unarmed strike and AC bonus.


If you wanted. I'd prefer a reach weapon, personally.

JaronK

Hmm, spiked chains can work, and go nuts with Disarm/Trip shenanigans :).

So, in my opinion, the 'good' monk PrCs out there, that either do or don't raise FoB work, when:

Sacred Fist: When you wanna be a holy arse-kicker with unarmed damage and maybe abuse VoP.

Enlightened Fist: When you want to be an arcane arse-kicker and abuse Sun School.

Initiate of Pistis Sophia: Exalted Monk... With Flurry of Blows

[ericgrau]

Perfect Self: Dr Magic by level 20 is sure to be beaten by practically everything, and being turned into an Outsider, for some reason I was under the assumption that was actually a nerf to the class despite the intent of it being super awesome (no more enlarge person buffs, for example).
It is a lousy ability, but it's not a nerf. Instead of enlarge person you polymorph into an angel for large size, ludicrous str (+14), con (+10) and natural armor (+19!) and 90' good flight. Arguably 9th level spell slots too but then they're only good for spontaneous cures. At level 20 wealth even without caster buddies there are multiple ways to get polymorph on an item. Yes... even cross-class UMD, good charisma and a partially fully charged wand if you need to. But there are other ways. I don't believe using magic items, spell-casting or otherwise, is contrary to the flavor of any class, btw, since WBL is deeply ingrained within the system itself and WBL = magic items = usually-spell-related magic. Avoiding those class features, ok, ya.