My players are part-time stupid.

[Elkad]

ToEE, 3.5 conversion. Core rules only, and the only magic items they have is what has dropped. No shopping. But there are EIGHT of them, 7 4th and 1 3rd, plus Elmo (Ranger 4, NPC, with great stats).

That said, they keep almost dying due to poor tactics. It's a mix of old players (all the way back to 1st edition for a couple), and a few who are on their 2nd campaign (and other is only up to 9th level).

I've already fudged a couple fights to stop a TPK. One I killed a single character (my wife's, after she overextended badly on her rogue next to a BBEG), and made them give all their loot to the Temple of St Cuthbert Cashbert for a rez.

They just hit the actual first level of the temple. Walked into the first room, got split by a trap, and then fascinated by harpies. So the uncharmed players played correctly and went big to drop the harpies in a hurry (burning several of their 2nd level spell slots), and Web one door pre-emptively, blocking some reinforcements from arriving. Great. They spent a bit of extra resources off 2 players, but some of the others didn't do anything. Balances out. But then it all goes bad.

Fight draws attention of some (6) ghouls. 2hd undead, and there are two clerics and a paladin in the party. Plenty of turn attempts to go around. None of them think about that, and try to bash it out.

Ghouls vs AC22 fighters doesn't go well for the ghouls, but the party is still having issues with the trap (Elmo and a PC are holding the portcullis halfway up to allow others to squeeze under it, after I fudged the str check to allow partial success). Party has fought ghouls twice before, but still haven't bought any silver weapons.

Players beat most of the ghouls eventually (after burning a bunch more spells and a small fortune in holy water). As the last ghoul ducks into a corner to try to stay alive vs a fighter+paladin it can't hit, the druid is still burning valuable 2nd level spell slots. The wizard wanders off to search a harpy, near the door he webbed earlier. He's standing by a secret door with 2 ghasts behind it, and the rest of the party is at least 30' away. The ghasts are cowardly, but they are cunning as well. Even if the wizard runs, there is still a dead harpy they could eat...

You can probably guess what I did next. Door pops open, ghasts paralyze and zero the wiz instantly. Both clerics and the druid rush that way. Again nobody turns undead, they all try to heal him (eating opportunity attacks in the process, but one succeeded). Faced with a large force which is no longer distracted, and with easy food right there, the ghasts take the cunning escape. Grab paralyzed wizard, drag him thru door, other one slams it. Party spends 1 round trying to get the door open, decide he's dead anyway (true - Ghast Chow), and head for town.

It's hard to balance for these guys. One fight they line up, conserve spells, work together, and just smash through my encounters. The next one they run 14 directions, give up AoOs all over, waste scorching ray on 1hp rats, and don't use core abilities.

The wizard isn't getting raised (mmm, tasty!), so the death penalties are getting steeper. Besides, nobody in Homlett can even cast Raise Dead, they are having to send off for scrolls (paying a premium, drastically shortening the time availible to rez someone, and risking failure)

When they were discussing what the dead guy would re-roll as, I suggested a Cleric so they would have someone in the party with Turn Undead :) The other 2 clerics in the party and the paladin all said "but I can turn unde... Oh..."

Even horribly un-optimized, they should be smashing through the early bit of the dungeon, not blowing all their resources on a single encounter.

Do I keep fudging fights when they play poorly? Always winning no matter how they play doesn't seem right (or fun). Do I keep killing them off on what should be minor encounters? (I don't mind killing them vs BBEGs, besides seeming fair, it's a way to control party wealth and exp progression)

[TuggyNE]

Well, the +2 turn resistance on those ghouls might have made them rather tougher to turn than you'd think, depending on the Cha modifiers. Paladin at say +3 Cha and level 1 turning would have only a 25% chance of affecting any ghouls at all (16+ on the turn check), and would only have been able to affect up to 5 ghouls at the very most. The clerics, if they had say 14 Cha, would have a rather better time; 65% chance to affect any, and 72% chance of getting all six if any were affected at all.

[Angelalex242]

Give them an intelligent sword named Cluebringer. Whenever they do something stupid, or fail common sense entirely, Cluebringer lives up to its name. ;)

[TuggyNE]

Give them an intelligent sword named Cluebringer. Whenever they do something stupid, or fail common sense entirely, Cluebringer lives up to its name. ;)

A sword? Wouldn't a greatclub be a better match?

[Ravens_cry]

A sword? Wouldn't a greatclub be a better match?
Well, that or a flying mammal familiar to dispense the needed advice.

[Angelalex242]

The Sword Cluebringer is a play on Fred Saberhagen's "Book of Swords" series, in which there's 12 Artifact level swords that essentially own the universe. They have names like Shieldbreaker, Sightblinder, Coinspinner, and so on.

But I admit, making it an intelligent greatclub named Cluebringer, particularly if it has the 'Dancing' property (and can therefore animate itself to hit particularly stupid PCs over the head...)

Flying mammal reminds me too much of Lunar, and other part JRPG/part anime style games.

[Raezeman]

your NPC ranger can give tips. If he's part of the group, he probably knows what the other are capable of, so he can say 'why don't you try turning those things?'

[nedz]

I'd leave it be. They have to learn, the hard way in this case.

The challenges you have set are all reasonable, but if you start handing out clues then you cheapen them.

[some guy]

I'd leave it be. They have to learn, the hard way in this case.

The challenges you have set are all reasonable, but if you start handing out clues then you cheapen them.

This is what I would do as well. But you know your group the best.
(And indeed player groups are fickle. An old group of mine almost got tpk'd by a bunch of ghouls, but the next fight they went through a lot of yuan-ti with a lot of class levels like butter.)

[BWR]

A sword? Wouldn't a greatclub be a better match?

Already been done: the Clue-by-four (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dork-Storm-Comic-Nodwick-Clue-Four-New-Mint-Plastic-Sleeved-/180878882972).
The entire run of the comic should be up on the author's site but for some reason the archive isn't working.

[Angelmaker]

Cluebringer and NPC are both out. NPC's should ever only be used to supplement stuff the group does not have, but they never should actively trying to influence the group in any way. Especially with a big group as yours they should somehow reach a consensus on their own.

What you could maybe incentivice, if they play smart but inconsistently so, is to have them call out sort of a leader. A sergeant if you will, who should be able to call out a few in game actions like "Turnthe undead, cleric.". You could take e player aside, after he has been elected by the group, and make perfectly clear where this idea comes from and that you need his help to make this game a better one.

[Spore]

ToEE is a module with fairly hard fights, if I remember correctly. Tell them, they can't just waltz in there like it's their house or something. Inform them of dangers ahead via the old: "The townsfolk has rumors of ghastly undead rumoring in the second floor."

Also, even IF they are old players, D&D has drastically changed since then. They don't know the system by heart. If your GF overextends, warn her. If the Cleric doesn't turn undead in the face of them, tell him in an inner monologue: "Your prayers remember you of the many lectures Father Turn-Alot held while still being an acolyte." Be blunt, but be charming about their mistakes.

Other than that do something to liven up the atmosphere. They seem to get down in the dark and depressing atmosphere of the temple. Make funny things happen without hurting the atmo too much. You are basically playing a long dungeon crawl. Make dream sequences, build in a fluffy bunny farm (although close to the kitchen) enter a Minotaur, how asks where the exit is.

[Kesnit]

Fight draws attention of some (6) ghouls. 2hd undead, and there are two clerics and a paladin in the party. Plenty of turn attempts to go around. None of them think about that, and try to bash it out.

The most common thing I read about Turn Undead in this forum is "it is useless" and "only use it to power divine feats." Based on personal experience, I tend to agree with that idea once you get past the first few levels.

YOU knew that the ghouls could be turned. What makes you think the players had any idea that it would work? You make comments farther down about how they wasted standard actions. In their minds, trying to Turn the unknown undead could have been the waste. Also, Turning =/= destroying. It's possible the players thought Turning would be a waste since the monsters would only be back soon anyway...


Ghouls vs AC22 fighters doesn't go well for the ghouls, but the party is still having issues with the trap (Elmo and a PC are holding the portcullis halfway up to allow others to squeeze under it, after I fudged the str check to allow partial success).

So the party is still split, but the fight is going on as if the entire party was there. Also, it seems to me the party is trying to get back together. From a player's prospective, I'd say they fought pretty smart. The Fighter is clearly handling the ghouls, so there isn't a lot of need to spend extra resources on that side. It makes perfect sense for the others to do what they could to reunite everyone.


Party has fought ghouls twice before, but still haven't bought any silver weapons.

Any reason they would know to?

IMO, at that level, specialized weapons are a waste. WBL isn't very high, and the PCs are still getting their first set of magical gear. Buying a specialized weapon to deal with a small number of monsters doesn't make a lot of sense, compared to buying something that is universally useful. Especially since there are a lot of different materials. (Just when they buy silver weapons, the module starts throwing fey creatures at them...)


He's standing by a secret door with 2 ghasts behind it, and the rest of the party is at least 30' away. The ghasts are cowardly, but they are cunning as well. Even if the wizard runs, there is still a dead harpy they could eat...

You can probably guess what I did next. Door pops open, ghasts paralyze and zero the wiz instantly.

I get the impression you are blaming the WIZ for this one. Any reason why the WIZ would have reason to suspect there was a secret room with 2 save-or-die undead in it?


It's hard to balance for these guys.

You have the advantage; you know exactly what is where. The players do not. When you prepare for the session, you have time to think about what they players could do. During play, the players don't have that advantage. They also don't have the advantage of knowing exactly what the monsters are and how to beat them. You know that the ghouls are low HD and can be turned; the players don't. You knew the secret door was there and what was behind it; they players didn't.


Besides, nobody in Homlett can even cast Raise Dead, they are having to send off for scrolls (paying a premium, drastically shortening the time availible to rez someone, and risking failure)

They'll have the scrolls next time.


Do I keep fudging fights when they play poorly?

Looks to me you are blaming them for not meta-gaming. When you prepare for a session, look at it from a player's POV, not from that of the all-knowing DM. Don't assume they know everything you do, because they don't.

[Red Fel]

Cluebringer and NPC are both out. NPC's should ever only be used to supplement stuff the group does not have, but they never should actively trying to influence the group in any way. Especially with a big group as yours they should somehow reach a consensus on their own.

What you could maybe incentivice, if they play smart but inconsistently so, is to have them call out sort of a leader. A sergeant if you will, who should be able to call out a few in game actions like "Turnthe undead, cleric.". You could take e player aside, after he has been elected by the group, and make perfectly clear where this idea comes from and that you need his help to make this game a better one.

Offer them a feat (Common Sense), magic item (Amulet of Common Sense), or even just a DM benefit (i.e. a once-per-day thing). Each of these have the same function: When used, this feat/magic item/DM informs the player if their chosen path of action will be seriously stupid, in the potentially terminal sense. You don't tell them the "right" thing to do, because there is no such thing; you don't tell them why what they're doing is stupid. You just tell them, only if asked, if what they just proposed to do is stupid.

If they use it and learn to avoid obvious death, great. If they never use it, they deserve precisely what's coming to them.

[Mr Adventurer]

Ghouls don't have DR/silver.

[Elkad]

They have fought ghouls before. More of them as a matter of fact, and they were still 3rd level, and without the services of Elmo. They remembered to turn that time, and discussed getting silver weapons when they got back to town. Which they promptly forgot about.

WBL... The phylactery of free action dropped in the moathouse alone puts the entire party over the limit. Ring version is 40,000gp, so even with a "cleric only" discount, it blows the whole budget. I'm pretty much ignoring WBL and giving them useful items. They've got other drops closer to the wealth guidelines (of the +1 or disposable sort). Silver weapons are a mere +90gp, and I would have made a few (possibly not their favorite type) available if they'd remembered to ask.

This group has been playing together for nearly 2 years now. Other campaign is 9th level, run by a different DM (where I am a player). He expressed an interest in having more time to plan between sessions, so I offered to run Hommlet as a 2nd campaign on alternate sessions, allowing him to be a player instead. I've run it repeatedly before (in earlier editions), and only 1 of them was familiar with it, so the role-playing side is easy. Besides, the other game is pretty Role heavy, and they expressed an interest in a heavier Roll game. ToEE fits that nicely.

I'm running it (tactically) just like I would for a party of 4-5. No extra monsters or anything.

Their ability changes drastically from fight to fight, or even round to round.

They'd defeated the trap well enough that everyone was in the room minus Elmo and the rogue (who has plenty of other non-combat things to do, and isn't getting through DR on undead anyway) and free to act. I suspect part of them were thinking "conserve resources" and part of them were thinking "oh crap", so we had some fighting normally, trying to beat through DR or tossing holy water vials. And a couple others going right down their spell list from biggest to smallest and casting everything...

The wizard wandering off and standing in the death square (next to secret door) wasn't his fault. But again the clerics failed to even try to turn, nobody got in a grapple fight to keep him from being dragged away, nobody tried to stop the door from closing, despite me cluing them in. They just healed him and/or hit one ghast. And as soon as the door shut, they gave up. Yeah, he was dead the next round, but they were still in good shape to at least recover most of his body.

I've given them easier versions of all this stuff. Reinforcements late in a fight. Creature with less strength tries to drag off a party member. Portcullis traps that blocked the party instead of splitting it. Etc.

I've also lined up bandits in neat little rows and watched them struggle to get to the spellcasters or archers in the back. One fight they will do the same to the monsters, or establish battlefield control by magic or something, the next they just run around willy-nilly and let my monsters roam the battlefield freely.

It's the inconsistency. And I can't point it at anyone. Several of them have stepped up and directed a battle. And then none of them do.

This fight they started great. They dealt with the harpies VERY quickly, and when I pressured them on the trap (by adding ghouls), they handled that quickly as well, and then fell apart...

Just frustrating.

[Captnq]

The one constant thing in all your failed campaigns is YOU.

It is a poor DM who blames his players.

Your problem was you were rooting for them. You created a situation and figured out how they could "win". Then they didn't do what you wanted. It ended "wrong".

Did they enjoy themselves? Were they entertained? Did play move swiftly and did it get bogged down in combat? Really, the way you need to measure your success should not be by the number of monster's killed, but by the entertainment generated.

Will this night be a night to be remembered? No? You failed.

It's perfectly fine to murder the crap out of your players. You should do it a few times. They'll take things much more seriously. I'll bet they start to work together as a team much better as soon as they start turning into corpses.

[Sith_Happens]

(who has plenty of other non-combat things to do, and isn't getting through DR on undead anyway)

Neither ghouls nor ghasts have DR.

[nedz]

Hmm, you expect this sort of thing right at the beginning of a game when they haven't worked out what they should be doing and thus haven't gelled as a team yet; but they should be over that by now.

Maybe there are just too many players for them to achieve cohesion ?

[Sugashane]

Give them an intelligent sword named Cluebringer. Whenever they do something stupid, or fail common sense entirely, Cluebringer lives up to its name. ;)


It actually made me think of Navi from Zelda. "Listen!" lol

[Yawgmoth]

Tell/remind them that RttToEE is a character grinder that will never hesitate to chew up, digest, and crap their sheet right into their lap at the slightest provocation. I bought that module when it came out and I remember that roughly 80% of the encounters have the note "because these enemies (are positioned for swift murder/have advanced tactics/are otherwise much more capable) than usual, your PCs should be getting an extra (20-50% depending on encounter) experience."

They should be treating the temple as a particularly brutal roguelike, but more importantly they need to be expressly told this so they keep it in mind.

[Trasilor]

Ghouls don't have DR/silver.

I was thinking the same thing...

Also, why didn't the wizard notice the Ghast Stench? Seems to me that the Stench alone should have alerted him/her to their presence.

With that being said, players making foolish choices should reap the consequences. I always play the monsters to their ability - mindless creatures are mindless - they attack the thing in front of them, or that which is hurting the most.

Intelligent creatures hunt or use tactics. They flank enemies, target the spell casters, and try and take down one opponent at a time. And they always have an escape plan (unless they are some crazy fanatics).

Of course, I let my players know this and they respond accordingly - moving in and out of combat, being supportive of each other - not running off on their own.

[Angelalex242]

Cluebringer:

+1 intelligent merciful dancing greatclub.

Lawful Good...

100 Two at 19, one at 10 Speech, telepathy4, 5 Four lesser powers and three greater powers6 120 ft. darkvision, blindsense, and hearing +15,000 gp (Int 19, Wis 19, Cha 10)

Powers:
10 Ranks of Knowledge:Arcana
10 Ranks of Knowledge:Dungoneering
10 Ranks of Knowledge:Nature
10 Ranks of Knowledge:Local
10 Ranks of Knowledge:Planes
10 Ranks of Knowledge:Religion
10 Ranks of Sense Motive
10 Ranks of Spot
10 Ranks of Listen
10 Ranks of Search

(It has these ranks so it can always make a knowledge check against an enemy to know what its weaknesses are...he was a cleric of Cuthbert before he was an item. It has the other ranks so it can yell at its wielder, "HEY DUMBASS, there's something sneaking up on you, or HEY DUMBASS, it's trying to pull a fast one on you.)

Stronger Powers:
Item casts Augry at Will.
Item casts Divination 3/day
Item casts Commune 1/day (St. Cuthbert...it's a cleric of his in the item.)

Special Purpose:
Bring common sense to its wielder.
Special Purpose power:
63-68 Wielder gets +2 luck bonus on attacks, saves, and checks +80,000 gp

Item Ego: 37
+1 (Enhancement), +5 (special abilities), +10 (Lesser Powers), +6 (greater powers), +4 (Special Purpose), + 3 (misc abilities), +4 (Int) +4 (Wis)....

When a conflict between this item and a character happens, they must make a DC 37 will save...or the item takes over. Essentially, this lets you puppet someone's PC pretty much any time you want, unless they happen to roll a 20 on their will save.

[nedz]

Cluebringer:
...


I think you've just turned a PC into a DMPC :smalltongue:

[Icewraith]

I don't normally multiquote like this but sometimes...


ToEE, 3.5 conversion. Core rules only, and the only magic items they have is what has dropped. No shopping.


I've already fudged a couple fights to stop a TPK.


Even at low levels, magic items can make or break a character.



and made them give all their loot to the Temple of St Cuthbert Cashbert for a rez.


and now they're even more undergeared.



Party has fought ghouls twice before, but still haven't bought any silver weapons.


It is news to me and several other people in this thread that ghouls have DR/silver. This may be part of the problem.




The wizard wanders off to search a harpy, near the door he webbed earlier. He's standing by a secret door with 2 ghasts behind it, and the rest of the party is at least 30' away.

Door pops open, ghasts paralyze and zero the wiz instantly.


Did you give the Wizard spot or search or something checks to at least notice the Ghast's stench, or the secret door, or that he was in danger? How are Ghasts aware of the wizard if they're on the other side of a secret door? Is there a peephole or something? If there is, their stench should be immediately obvious and the wizard should have a shot at least.

This is still kind of poor play on the Wizard's part since he's the squish and should never be off by himself, but even so...



Again nobody turns undead, they all try to heal him (eating opportunity attacks in the process, but one succeeded).

It's hard to balance for these guys. One fight they line up, conserve spells, work together, and just smash through my encounters. The next one they run 14 directions, give up AoOs all over, waste scorching ray on 1hp rats, and don't use core abilities.


This I sympathize with. Any given day a group of experienced intelligent players can turn into a horde of idiots at the slightest provocation. The occasional DM reminder or "are you sure you want to do that" isn't out of line in these circumstances.



Besides, nobody in Homlett can even cast Raise Dead, they are having to send off for scrolls (paying a premium, drastically shortening the time availible to rez someone, and risking failure)


Unless this is a module specific thing, or the town's GP limit is too low, the PCs should be able to buy scrolls in town instead of "sending off for them". This kind of seems like an unneccessary hindrance.



When they were discussing what the dead guy would re-roll as, I suggested a Cleric so they would have someone in the party with Turn Undead :) The other 2 clerics in the party and the paladin all said "but I can turn unde... Oh..."

Even horribly un-optimized, they should be smashing through the early bit of the dungeon, not blowing all their resources on a single encounter.



That reminder may have been a bit overdue, but excellent setup :smallwink:. I think the starting restrictions on gear, especially defensive gear, may be contributing to the problem. It's also reasonable to remind players every once in a while of core abilities they may be forgetting.

The other thing is that unless the Ghasts are supposed to attack during the encounter, the group is technically facing two encounters at once. Also surprise is nasty. How did you handle initiative here? If you just rolled for the Ghasts and had them act on their turn you denied the Wizard the opportunity to try and react to the ambush by rerolling his initative. Note that you only get a standard OR move action in a surprise round. Also, rolling individually for the ghasts (unless you did that and just rolled well) would have given the Wizard player more of a shot to at least only take attacks form one ghast before running to safety.

[Elkad]

You guys keep referencing WBL. I haven't even attempted to add it up, but I say they are way over.

Just primary gear, from memory.
Ftr: Full Plate +1, +2 shield, longsword +1
Pally: Breastplate+1, MW bastard sword, shield +1
Cleric_1: MW half-plate, MW shield, Phylactery of Free Action
Cleric_2: MW Breastplate, +1 Mace, +1 shield
Druid: Leather +1, Qstaff +1. Companion, collar of Nat Armor +1
Rogue: Mithril shirt, +1 shortsword, MW rapier, Elven cloak
Wizard: Bracers of Defense +3
Sorc: Ring of Pro +2
Somewhere in the party are a couple more +1 Pro rings
Most other gear they have is masterwork by now.

Plus a selection of potions, keoghtum's ointment, a couple scrolls, magic and silver arrows, and some minor items (a belt that boosts carrying capacity, 2 items of +1 to an individual save, Level 0 pearl of power, etc). Oh, and scads of tanglefoot bags, alchemical fire and holy water.

The nearby towns are tiny. Top NPCs are a wizard 9, cleric 7, druid 7. Everyone else is under 4th, and most are 1st. By rights it shouldn't have Raise Dead at all, however I've added the availability of scrolls at a markup (8000gp instead of 6125). They paid with mundane treasure, not magic items. They've also shelled out for a bunch of cheaper spells (Cure Disease, Remove Curse, etc). They came up with the "St Cashbert" nickname on their own.

It's a hamlet, or village at best. 100gp items, with a total limit of a couple thousand if I go by the DMG guide. I'm allowing them more than that on mundane items, but not much. One very valuable piece of jewelry (over 15,000gp) got a letter of credit from the Honorable Order of Moneychangers for a third of that, and a contract to split any additional profits realized when the item was shipped to the capital and sold. Over 100 miles away.




Yes, my ghouls have DR 5/silver. Thought I'd mentioned that in the initial post. Magic weapons also substitute somewhat for having the correct item, by reducing DR directly equal to the weapon bonus (so a +1 sword both adds 1 to damage, and reduces DR to 4).

The ghasts (DR5/iron - a variation of the old "take double damage from iron" ghast) were set to add after a specific number of rounds. Since the door they would have used was blocked by the web, they had to circle around to the secret door instead, adding a couple rounds to that. I was moving them on a (secret) initiative roll. Nobody in the party had even been to that side of the room the entire combat, until the wizard moved that way.

I didn't do a surprise round for the ghouls, but I gave the wizard the option to get one by making a fairly easy listen/spot check to notice the door opening behind him. He rolled poorly. One ghast opened the door, the other attacked the target in front of him. No flat-footed penalties to AC, just a straight-up attack on the ghast's initiative roll. 2 hits=0hp and a failed paralyze save.


I'm not blaming the wizard, I was just shocked that the party not only failed to attempt to stop the dragging away, but they didn't attempt to recover the body. It may not have worked, but they didn't even put out the effort. They'd expended a lot of spells, but only 2 characters had any damage at all.

I self-tested the encounter(s) quite a bit. With the trap as a big problem (splitting most of the party), or without. With casters charmed initially (requiring fighters to use bows), without. Based on that, I delayed the Ghasts from my initial plan of round 5 to round 8.

Individually those encounters are Easy, Easy, and Challenging. All together they are Very Difficult. I lined them up so they were almost individual (and could be if the party was sneaky), but so the party could get some additional use out of spells with "minutes" durations. Also makes it easier for me to avoid play stoppages to redraw maps. And they seem to like big epic fights vs a bunch of small ones.

I think they are having fun. They come back for the next session every time anyway. But for once I feel like I'm struggling to give them a smooth session. I've run this for a bunch of groups in the past, because I like running this module, or did up until I quit playing 15 years ago. We are 8ish sessions in and I can't get a feel for this party and what they are capable of. Part may be my inexperience with 3.5, but a big part seems to be their randomness. I've had parties where I had to play every monster as hard as possible, and others where the monsters had to be incompetent. But each group developed some sort of consistency.

[Maginomicon]

If you want a simple solution:

The dead levels (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) ability for a cleric combined with passive ability checks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310882) (particularly passive wisdom and passive intelligence) and passive knowledge checks (particularly passive knowledge religion) would make their stupidity be fixed by you telling them what their characters would automatically know, and the best part is you don't have to have your players retool anything. It's all on you. You don't even have to retool your encounters. A religion-maxed high-wisdom 2nd-level cleric would get a 5+5+3 on passive religion checks, +2 to recognize undead from the dead levels ability. That brings them to passive religion 15, enough to recognize undead up to 5 HD without any player effort whatsoever. If they try a religion check actively (a free action), you can tell them more than just what they are (however, the dead levels ability doesn't help in that case). Even if they don't actively try a religion check, they would know that they're 5 HD or less and thus vulnerable to turning.

[Tevesh]

Using Knowledge skills is automatic. The DCs are whatever the hell you want them to be.

This gives you licence to say whatever about the creature. "Less than 10? You know this creature is undead, has the usual undead immunities and are targets for your Turn Undead ability."

Extrapolate that to every single ability each PC has with Knowledge checks.

Also, you can easily give Skill Focus: Knowledge (Whatever) via Magical Locations. Make it also give Teller of Tales Skill Check. Then, you can drop hints and the Player feels like they have more options available to them.

[LadyLexi]

I noticed you posted the classes. I also noticed the lack of a Bard. Of course the party is disorganized and helpless without a Bard. Go re-read OoTS! A bard is a core part of every highly successful group. A thinking planning Bard> a foolish gestalt Psion/warblade.