Iron Heart Capstone Maneuver

[Blueiji]

To me the Iron Heart discipline's capstone maneuver, Strike of Perfect Clarity, seems a little lackluster.

I'm not disparaging the maneuver's power. I'm not the best judge in power or balance, and 100 extra damage does seem pretty substantial to me. So the numerical effects of the maneuver don't really phase me that much.

What I am questioning is the "fun" factor of the strike. 9th level maneuvers should have interestig and discipline-defining effects, not flat damage bonuses. Even if Iron Heart is supposed to be the "vanilla discipline", it deserves a capstone maneuver a little more exciting.

So does anyone know of any alternate (homebrew?) capstone maneuvers for Iron Heart? Or am I missing something, and Strike of Perfect Clarity is actually pretty cool?

[Sith_Happens]

IMO the mental image of Strike of Perfect Clarity is pretty cool. Specifically, it's presumably supposed to be this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SingleStrokeBattle).

[Big Fau]

It is rather bland, but most new players are going to see the 100 damage and get excited.

It's actual damage output is similar to Tombstone Mountain Strike against most high-level enemies, but IH's capstone is actually useable against undead and constructs.

Stone Dragon is supposed to be the "vanilla" discipline, as it's something all three adepts have.

[Nettlekid]

Does the Strike of Perfect Clarity's additional damage get multiplied by things like a Valorous Weapon on a charge? Because if so, then for Ubercharger builds (or any build which maxes out Power Attack multiplication) that 100 damage can accumulate pretty quickly, I'd think.

[Mcdt2]

I believe the extra damage would get multiplied by crits and such, as it is expressed as a flat bonus, and not as extra dice. However, keep in mind that you can't use standard action strikes on a charge unless it says otherwise.

[Mr Adventurer]

I thought that all bonus damage from strikes didn't multiply on crits - part of the rules for strikes.

[Darrin]

I thought that all bonus damage from strikes didn't multiply on crits - part of the rules for strikes.

Most strikes express the additional damage as "extra damage", which is defined in the rules in terms of dice, such as +Xd6 (sneak attack, flaming weapon, Mountain Hammer, etc.). A modifier, however, is not considered "extra damage" and gets multiplied. +100 is a big modifier, but not technically "extra damage" by the rules.

[Chronos]

It's kind of underwhelming. Yeah, 100 damage is a lot, but compare it to the other 9th-level maneuvers:

Desert Wind: Inferno Blast does that much to everything, in a huge area, though it's admittedly fire, which a lot of things resist.
Devoted Spirit: Strike of Righteous Vitality will erase 150 damage to an ally plus remove most status conditions, or deal that much damage to an undead.
Diamond Mind: Time Stands Still gives you an entire extra full attack, which by this level really ought to be worth more than 100 damage.
Setting Sun: Tornado Throw. OK, I'm not really familiar with how Setting Sun works in practice, so I'll leave this one without comment.
Shadow Hand: Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation This Maneuver Name is Way Too Long deals an average of over 50 damage, plus some hefty ability score damage.
Stone Dragon: Mountain Tombstone Strike's 2d6 Con damage averages about the same as 100 HP damage, for targets with about 30 HD, plus reduces Fort saves and can't be easily healed.
Tiger Claw: Feral Death Blow has a good chance to kill instantly, and even if it doesn't, it averages 70 extra damage.
White Raven: War Master's Charge matches the extra damage if you only have two allies charge with you, plus whatever their base damage is, plus probably several more allies.

Most of these are probably better than Strike of Perfect Clarity, and all of them are more interesting.

[Kane0]

Whenever I got the chance to use SoPC the DM was awesome enough to rule that it always forced a save vs massive damage, despite the fact the he otherwise took that rule out of the game for that campaign.

So it ended up being +100 damage vs all targets and save vs death that immunity to death magic didn't protect you from.

[Pickford]

IMO the mental image of Strike of Perfect Clarity is pretty cool. Specifically, it's presumably supposed to be this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SingleStrokeBattle).

You made me waste the last two days of my life. I hope you're happy.

The strike seems pretty good given that it's only a standard action (and thus can move in the same turn)

Let's compare to the other options:

War Master's Charge - full round initiation, requires that you charge (i.e. not feasible once in melee)

Feral Death Blow - full round initiation, requires a jump check just to see if you can make the attack and the death effect doesn't work on everything, in the end the damage is only 90 on average (so less than Strike of Perfect Clarity)

Mountain Tombstone Strike - standard action, 2d6 con damage...so assuming your target 'can' take con damage (many things are immune) this would do on average 60 hp worth of con damage.

Time Stands Still - full round action (i.e. must be in melee range already) damage is dependent on ability to land hits. (If it's a high AC target, this becomes less useful)

[Sith_Happens]

You should never, ever fail the Jump check for Feral Death Blow if you've been focusing enough on Tiger Claw to have it in the first place, and most CR 17+ enemies have HD>>CR which means more damage from Mountain Tombstone Strike, but yes, Strike of Perfect Clarity is perfectly comparable power-wise to its counterparts. The OP's complaint is rather that it's not as exciting.

[Adverb]

It's kinda cool, though. I mean, yeah - Time Stands Still is a cool image. Taking 20 swings is a neat visual. At-will immolation of everything within 60 feet isn't bad either.

But as Sith_Happens pointed out, one-shot kills are super (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWsz7u4eN8I&t=1m6s) cool (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prDCDmchtTg&t=2m05s). And while mechanicwise ToB helps mitigate the linear-fighter-quadratic-wizard problem, flavorwise it's D&D wuxia. And cool fight scenes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWlyvYl_czg&t=1m45s) are cool.

[Shining Wrath]

I'd rank Strike of Perfect Clarity lower than the 8th level IH move Adamantine Hurricane, aka the Mook Eraser.

Two attacks versus everything adjacent to you a +4 to hit? For a Warblade who is supposed to wade in and engage the enemy toe to toe? Yes, please, may I have some more?

[Red Fel]

I think Big Fau hit the key point, however.

Yes, SoPC doesn't have the flames, or the overcoming-DR, or the cool-long-Asian-sounding-name-with-ability-damage, but it does have a massive, flat boost that will hurt anything that takes damage. It overcomes DR because it is simply so massive. It hurts even constructs, undead and other things ordinarily immune to damage spikes (such as Sneak Attacks, crits, etc.). It is basically a single, perfect sword strike that cuts through anyone.

On the one hand, it's a little vanilla. It's just a swing of a sword, after all.

On the other hand, it's perfect. No fluff, no fancy tricks, no fireballs or pillars of light or creepy shadows. It is, very simply, the most sublime, most pure weapon strike conceived. It is the epitome of a martial blow.

And that's pretty gosh-darn awesome.

[Kuulvheysoon]

You made me waste the last two days of my life. I hope you're happy.

And that's the reason that I always hover my mouse above a link, just to make sure that it's not a TV Tropes link.

[Shining Wrath]

I think Big Fau hit the key point, however.

Yes, SoPC doesn't have the flames, or the overcoming-DR, or the cool-long-Asian-sounding-name-with-ability-damage, but it does have a massive, flat boost that will hurt anything that takes damage. It overcomes DR because it is simply so massive. It hurts even constructs, undead and other things ordinarily immune to damage spikes (such as Sneak Attacks, crits, etc.). It is basically a single, perfect sword strike that cuts through anyone.

On the one hand, it's a little vanilla. It's just a swing of a sword, after all.

On the other hand, it's perfect. No fluff, no fancy tricks, no fireballs or pillars of light or creepy shadows. It is, very simply, the most sublime, most pure weapon strike conceived. It is the epitome of a martial blow.

And that's pretty gosh-darn awesome.

It is worth noting that it's not 100 points damage. It's an EXTRA 100 points damage added to what a high level Warblade does with a single hit. And a high-level Warblade's single hit ought to leave a mark.

[Pickford]

And that's the reason that I always hover my mouse above a link, just to make sure that it's not a TV Tropes link.

Ironically that is exactly the reason I clicked it :smallamused:

edit: Adamantine Hurricane has some potential, but against a single opponent it will be completely inferior unless your Warblade is already doing 100+ damage with a single melee hit to begin with.

[Shining Wrath]

Ironically that is exactly the reason I clicked it :smallamused:

edit: Adamantine Hurricane has some potential, but against a single opponent it will be completely inferior unless your Warblade is already doing 100+ damage with a single melee hit to begin with.

True, but I find that most battles have multiple opponents. The ability to do the Sauron "Bodies fly everywhere" attack from the filmed prelude to Fellowship TWICE is just hilarious.

If you want to take one foe out hard and fast, Feral Death Blow is the ticket so long as they are subject to critical hits.

[Manly Man]

I think Big Fau hit the key point, however.

Yes, SoPC doesn't have the flames, or the overcoming-DR, or the cool-long-Asian-sounding-name-with-ability-damage, but it does have a massive, flat boost that will hurt anything that takes damage. It overcomes DR because it is simply so massive. It hurts even constructs, undead and other things ordinarily immune to damage spikes (such as Sneak Attacks, crits, etc.). It is basically a single, perfect sword strike that cuts through anyone.

On the one hand, it's a little vanilla. It's just a swing of a sword, after all.

On the other hand, it's perfect. No fluff, no fancy tricks, no fireballs or pillars of light or creepy shadows. It is, very simply, the most sublime, most pure weapon strike conceived. It is the epitome of a martial blow.

And that's pretty gosh-darn awesome.

Which is also the point of the Iron Heart discipline in the fist place, to take something completely mundane and unflatteringly plain, and then be awesome with it. I mean, come on, at third-level you're already able to make that Sorcerer look like a chump by blocking his scorching rays with your sword. At fifth, you get a giant 'NO' button through the sheer force of "TO HELL WITH THAT NONSENSE, NYAH." The entire discipline is to reach the pinnacle of being a Badass Normal.

[FullStop]

Which is also the point of the Iron Heart discipline in the fist place, to take something completely mundane and unflatteringly plain, and then be awesome with it. I mean, come on, at third-level you're already able to make that Sorcerer look like a chump by blocking his scorching rays with your sword. At fifth, you get a giant 'NO' button through the sheer force of "TO HELL WITH THAT NONSENSE, NYAH." The entire discipline is to reach the pinnacle of being a Badass Normal.

I now have this mental image of a Warblade having a literal big red disembodied button with "NO." emblazoned on its face, that he slams with his fist, at which point it shouts "IRON HEART SURGE."

Like an Easy button.

But totally baller.

[Adverb]

That sounds pretty boss right there.

[Shining Wrath]

I now have this mental image of a Warblade having a literal big red disembodied button with "NO." emblazoned on its face, that he slams with his fist, at which point it shouts "IRON HEART SURGE."

Like an Easy button.

But totally baller.

He's got another one that shouts "Iron Heart Focus". Rerolling any save you didn't care for is pretty much a "NO" button too.

[FullStop]

He's got another one that shouts "Iron Heart Focus". Rerolling any save you didn't care for is pretty much a "NO" button too.

I'm thinking that one would be "AGAIN." The other "NO." would be Wall of Blades.

[Manly Man]

DM: You just failed your save, so now you-

Warblade: http://i.imgur.com/BPrwOGL.jpg

[Phaederkiel]

I think what really makes it shine is the ability to deliver a multiple of the damage via crit.

But, on the other hand, greater insightful strike deals probably more than it, and is only a 5th lvl maneuver, and can also be used for crits.

[Big Fau]

It also auto-invokes Massive Damage, and if the DM is using the variant that increases the save DC based on the damage you deal it can potentially instagib someone (not that it already couldn't).

[Thrawn183]

While I'm glad everyone has mentioned the overcoming DR aspect, I'm surprised people have failed to mention the coolest part of this maneuver.

It works with anything. Anti-magic field? Loss of stat boosters and 6 figures worth of magical weapons? Who cares, you're the goddam warblade and you're going to ram a wooden fork through your opponents sternum so hard it forces a save against death from massive damage.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That, Thrawn, is an excellent point. Here's another: if your DM is using the size based variant for massive damage, it still triggers a save vs death against even the largest of foes.

[137beth]

Personally, I consider it one of the most disappointing capstone abilities in the game.
I know it is good, but I find pure damage boring. Yet aside from the capstone, IH is my favorite discipline. Hence the extreme disappointment in the capstone.

Fortunately, it can be fixed easily by using IHS to end the condition 'boring capstone ability'.

[icefractal]

It's not super exciting. Like the Diamond Mind "skill check as damage" maneuvers, you can use it do amusing things like kill people with a toothpick, but that does admittedly come up pretty rarely.

[Subaru Kujo]

amusing things like kill people with a toothpick, but that does admittedly come up pretty rarely.

The hell kinda games are you playing in? :smalltongue:

[FullStop]

The hell kinda games are you playing in? :smalltongue:

SPOON OF PERFECT CLARITY!

[AstralFire]

SPOON OF PERFECT CLARITY!

I kinda want to see a game where a hobo Warblade with no items joins the party and gains no XP or items until they get in range of his level. And up until that point, he's just using random hobo items and acting borderline insane.

:elan: I admit it, Roy. They're better than us.
:roy: Then why are you smiling?
:elan: Because I know something that they don't know.
:roy: And what is that?
:elan: I don't really have Favored Weapon: Spoon. *picks up fallen sword*

[FullStop]

I kinda want to see a game where a hobo Warblade with no items joins the party and gains no XP or items until they get in range of his level. And up until that point, he's just using random hobo items and acting borderline insane.

:elan: I admit it, Roy. They're better than us.
:roy: Then why are you smiling?
:elan: Because I know something that they don't know.
:roy: And what is that?
:elan: I don't really have Favored Weapon: Spoon. *picks up fallen sword*

I hate to point this out, but Warblades can switch weapon-specific feats by practicing for an hour. Not that I don't appreciate the reference.

[AstralFire]

I hate to point this out, but Warblades can switch weapon-specific feats by practicing for an hour. Not that I don't appreciate the reference.

I was actively including that! :smallbiggrin: Like, in my head he'd been using a nonmagical spoon the whole time specifically because it was suboptimal and kept him on par with the party, but he pretended that he was an obscure class which only functions with a spoon and that he wasn't a Warblade.

[LordBiscuit]

Personally, I don't rate the class by it's capstone, Capstones are copout abilities that you only ever see when your about to pack up for a new character so I don't rate them.

As far as capstones go though, the Iron Heart fits the bill perfectly. A single, badass strike of enhancement of 100 damage. Considering the entire class is marially based and it has awesome abilitys for every other situation. With instant death rules he will probably slaughter any given creature in a single blow, how is that not amazingly awesome?

[FullStop]

Personally, I don't rate the class by it's capstone, Capstones are copout abilities that you only ever see when your about to pack up for a new character so I don't rate them.

As far as capstones go though, the Iron Heart fits the bill perfectly. A single, badass strike of enhancement of 100 damage. Considering the entire class is marially based and it has awesome abilitys for every other situation. With instant death rules he will probably slaughter any given creature in a single blow, how is that not amazingly awesome?

It's like having a 55-gallon drum full of vanilla ice cream. Sure, you're glad you have it, and there's a lot of it, but it's not exactly teasing your conkers with the anticipation of how interesting eating it will be.

[Deophaun]

It's like having a 55-gallon drum full of vanilla ice cream. Sure, you're glad you have it, and there's a lot of it, but it's not exactly teasing your conkers with the anticipation of how interesting eating it will be.
Although due to its flexibility, vanilla is the tier 1 of ice cream.

[FullStop]

Although due to its flexibility, vanilla is the tier 1 of ice cream.

It's true. With the right dips and prestige toppings you can do some truly horrifying things.

[Big Fau]

Although due to its flexibility, vanilla is the tier 1 of ice cream.


It's true. With the right dips and prestige toppings you can do some truly horrifying things.

Stop it... :smallbiggrin:

[Thrawn183]

Personally, I don't rate the class by it's capstone, Capstones are copout abilities that you only ever see when your about to pack up for a new character so I don't rate them.

As far as capstones go though, the Iron Heart fits the bill perfectly. A single, badass strike of enhancement of 100 damage. Considering the entire class is marially based and it has awesome abilitys for every other situation. With instant death rules he will probably slaughter any given creature in a single blow, how is that not amazingly awesome?

The Warblades capstone is actually Stance Mastery that allows them to be in two stances at once.

The Iron Heart maneuver is just a very powerful tool that is supposed to have virtually no limitations.

Also, almost anything that can actually survive 100+ damage has an easy time passing the save against death from massive damage, it's only, what... DC 15?

Edit: I believe I've eaten far more vanilla ice cream than that in my life. Don't knock vanilla ice cream.

[FullStop]

The Warblades capstone is actually Stance Mastery that allows them to be in two stances at once.

The Iron Heart maneuver is just a very powerful tool that is supposed to have virtually no limitations.

Also, almost anything that can actually survive 100+ damage has an easy time passing the save against death from massive damage, it's only, what... DC 15?

Edit: I believe I've eaten far more vanilla ice cream than that in my life. Don't knock vanilla ice cream.

Considering I can go through a half-gallon or whatever in less than a week, I've probably hit that in Moose Tracks alone.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah, it's a shame they couldn't make it interesting.

IMO, Lightning Throw is the defining maneuver of Iron Heart. It's powerful, it lets you ignore AC and go after the most ignored save in the game instead, and it hits a sizeable area. And it is hella thematic, the fact you can even do that non-magically and have it flawlessly return to your hand... It's so badass. That is what pure martial skill looks like!

[Thrawn183]

Considering I can go through a half-gallon or whatever in less than a week, I've probably hit that in Moose Tracks alone.

I spent the summer unloading freight at Lowes. I went through 5 quarts of ice cream every 2 days to convince myself to keep going back.

*For anyone thinking about working at Lowes* Your coworkers are probably dumb and fully equipped to kill you, whether it be with a forklift or muriatic acid. Be careful!

[Emperor Tippy]

The Warblades capstone is actually Stance Mastery that allows them to be in two stances at once.

The Iron Heart maneuver is just a very powerful tool that is supposed to have virtually no limitations.

Also, almost anything that can actually survive 100+ damage has an easy time passing the save against death from massive damage, it's only, what... DC 15?

Edit: I believe I've eaten far more vanilla ice cream than that in my life. Don't knock vanilla ice cream.

There is still the natural 1 auto-fail unless the target can re-roll Fort saves.

Honestly, I like taking an X 19/ Decisive Strike Monk 1 with a Belt of Battle, Master Iron Heart Vest, a Light Pick, and a Craft Contingent Surge of Fortune. Land your Decisive Strike to double your damage to that foe for the rest of the round, use your Belt of Battle to pick up an extra standard action, expend Surge of Fortune for the natural 20, and then smash home your +800 damage Strike of Perfect Clarity.