[PF] Using a siege firearm as a two handed weapon.

[Stux]

So in the firearm rules it states that a large or larger creature can wield a siege engine firearm as if it were a two-handed weapon.

I have some questions in this regard:


I assume a large creature can use a large siege engine as a two-handed weapon, a huge creature a huge siege engine and so on? This seems kind of odd as a large siege engine is as big as a large creature, but from everything I can find this is the only reading that makes sense.

How long does a siege engine used as a two-handed weapon take to reload?


a Large or larger creature can use a siege firearm as a two-handed firearm

The standard siege engine time (several full round or move actions) or the standard two-handed firearm time (a single full round or move action)?

Is there any precedence for using non-firearm siege engines as two-handed weapons? It would seem not, but maybe I have missed something. A trebuchet would be kind of ridiculous, but a ballista...?


Thank you for any help!

[Slipperychicken]

I know that 3.5 statted ballistae as simply Huge-sized crossbows, so a sufficiently large (Huge-sized) creature could wield one as a crossbow in two hands. That should allow a Large sized creature to wield a cannon in two hands.

I assume that using a siege firearm as a two-handed weapon should (logically) be equivalent to using a two-handed firearm, using the appropriate loading times.

[Dimcair]

Detritus comes to mind hehe

[Stux]

Thats what I am hoping with the loading times. Though then there is the issue of whether it is 'early' or 'advanced', as these have different reload times. I'm guessing early would be the more logical interpretation, with the slightly longer reload, which is fine.


Detritus comes to mind hehe

Hah, yes!

[Ravens_cry]

Detritus comes to mind hehe
That was one of my thoughts.
The other was, "Say hello to my not-so-little friend!":smallbiggrin:

[Slipperychicken]

Thats what I am hoping with the loading times. Though then there is the issue of whether it is 'early' or 'advanced', as these have different reload times. I'm guessing early would be the more logical interpretation, with the slightly longer reload, which is fine.


That's the setting's tech level. To find that out, you need to ask your GM.

[Stux]

That's the setting's tech level. To find that out, you need to ask your GM.

I don't think that is right. The setting determines how available the weapons from the early and advanced lists are, not how those specific weapons function.

[IronFist]

They work as early firearms.

[Rhatahema]

In most cases, a Large or larger creature can use a siege firearm as a two-handed firearm, but the creature takes a –4 penalty for using it this way because of its awkwardness.

Emphasis mine. This statement is so vague as to be useless. In what cases can't they? When the creature has no arms? When they're an ooze? Who knows? Anyway, just wanted to point out how tacked-on this rule was before I continued. A cool idea that occurred to the writer at the last minute, which they didn't have time to think through the implications of. I notice this a lot.

1) I'd keep the rules simple and say the weapons are always treated as two-handed firearms sized only for a creature of the siege weapon's size.

2) I would say when wielding a siege firearm as a two-handed weapon, go all in and disregard siege firearm rules entirely, treating it as a two-handed firearm in all ways. I haven't thought through all the ways, but I get the feeling that having it be treated as both would be a rules nightmare.

I'm pretty sure by the description of early firearms that siege firearms qualify, though I can't find where it's stated outright.

[Dimcair]

If you want to consider a "tech" aspect to it:

A Ballista weapon of the Romans was a pretty small thing. Could be easily carried and operated by a large creature in dnd imo. HOWEVER, those baddies were so powerfull and considered "siege" weapons because they could shoot really far and were more powerfull than bows.
How did they do that?
They twisted the rope they used to fire the projectile with in a way that it created a lot of power when unleashed.
Now, with the invention of crossbows (Which was much later) this technique was useless and they were much easier to operate. (by just using a tool at the end of the crossbow to **** it)

So what I am saying is that I would also just treat it as a crossbow adjusted to the size. The actual siege weapons of the medevial times were catapult like constructs, and you cant carry one of those...

[Bhaakon]

Emphasis mine. This statement is so vague as to be useless. In what cases can't they? When the creature has no arms?

I agree that it's vague, but I think there are some pretty obvious cases where siege weapons can't be wielded like a normal weapon, simply because their intrinsic design makes it ridiculous to use them that way.

As a rule of thumb, I'd only allow a larger creature to wield a siege weapon if there's a scaled down analog to that siege weapon used by medium/small sized creatures. Humans carry small ballistas (crossbows) and cannons (muskets) into battle, but not hand-held trebuchets and catapults.

[Ravens_cry]

So what I am saying is that I would also just treat it as a crossbow adjusted to the size. The actual siege weapons of the medevial times were catapult like constructs, and you cant carry one of those...
Crossbows are actually older than ballista, the latter likely being inspired by the ancient Greek gastraphetes.

[upho]

Hah, yes!A mini for you?
http://www.coolminiornot.com/shop/media/catalog/product/d/0/d03300.jpg

[Rhatahema]

I agree that it's vague, but I think there are some pretty obvious cases where siege weapons can't be wielded like a normal weapon, simply because their intrinsic design makes it ridiculous to use them that way.

As a rule of thumb, I'd only allow a larger creature to wield a siege weapon if there's a scaled down analog to that siege weapon used by medium/small sized creatures. Humans carry small ballistas (crossbows) and cannons (muskets) into battle, but not hand-held trebuchets and catapults.

Well, as far as I know, the rule is only applicable to siege firearms anyway (it's mentioned within the firearms rules). Though no rules on indirect fire siege firearms, which might present a problem.

[Stux]

Well, as far as I know, the rule is only applicable to siege firearms anyway (it's mentioned within the firearms rules). Though no rules on indirect fire siege firearms, which might present a problem.

True, although I'm not sure it actually states anywhere which siege engines are explicitly siege firearms. I mean its pretty easy to work out logically, but it would have been nice if they were explicit.

Yes, this rule does seem quite vague and tacked on...

[Ninjaxenomorph]

The firearms that are also on the siege engine list?