Psionics and Science Fiction

[Perseus]

I was told yesterday that many people view Psionics as less Fantasy and more Science Fiction.

First off, science fiction is a type of fantasy, I get that.

However I'm not sure how Psionics come off as science fiction, is it just the names or is there something I'm missing (quite possibly).

This is primarily a 3.5 question since I don't hear the same thing from people in the 2e games or 4e games.

Thanks!

(I was told by a DM recently that he hates SyFy and doesn't want psionics... Is it the sound psi-fi that brings this to the people's mind?)

[avr]

No, it's not the edition. Telepathy etc were an attempt to put a scientific skin over 'powers of the mind' and d&d stole the terminology. The scientific skin makes people think of science fiction.

[Red Fel]

It's not the difference between science fiction and fantasy generally. It's the difference between science fiction and high fantasy specifically.

D&D is a game of "high fantasy" - powerful spells, dark rituals, impossibly powerful beings, magical beasts, all with strong magical flavor, in a medieval-style period. There are those who object to bringing elements into that, such as steampunk or psionics, which they believe "don't fit" the theme.
I happen to think they're full of it, but opinions being what they are...
It's not hard to refluff psionics into a form of non-ritual, non-arcane-or-divine magic. Sort of a third school - where arcane magic harnesses supernatural energies in the world, and divine magic harnesses the powers of deities, ideals or nature, psionics harness the power within the caster. Reflavor a few powers, problem solved.

That said, if you have a DM who won't allow psionics, he won't allow psionics. It's like when a DM won't allow ToB; you can accept it, you can walk away, or you can burn bridges and then walk away.

[Psyren]

Psionics tends to use Greek roots (e.g. Metamorphosis, Hypercognition) and those have a more "science-y" sound/association to our subconscious mind. That's really all it boils down to.

[Perseus]

It's not the difference between science fiction and fantasy generally. It's the difference between science fiction and high fantasy specifically.

D&D is a game of "high fantasy" - powerful spells, dark rituals, impossibly powerful beings, magical beasts, all with strong magical flavor, in a medieval-style period. There are those who object to bringing elements into that, such as steampunk or psionics, which they believe "don't fit" the theme.
I happen to think they're full of it, but opinions being what they are...
It's not hard to refluff psionics into a form of non-ritual, non-arcane-or-divine magic. Sort of a third school - where arcane magic harnesses supernatural energies in the world, and divine magic harnesses the powers of deities, ideals or nature, psionics harness the power within the caster. Reflavor a few powers, problem solved.

That said, if you have a DM who won't allow psionics, he won't allow psionics. It's like when a DM won't allow ToB; you can accept it, you can walk away, or you can burn bridges and then walk away.

Naw, he is cool with ToB, and I'm not trying to convince him to change his mind. I have things I don't allow when I DM. Anything tier 6, 5, and 1 tend to get the ban stick, but I know the people I'm plating with and I know what not to allow those bastards :smalltongue:

I just realized recently that my 2e groups and 4e groups don't have any hangups on Psionics like the 3.x groups. Even when talking to people online it is almost like 3.Xers are just more likely to hate psionics than others. (Though the 2e groups think the psionics are weird and they prefer other mechanics, I've never been told all that much they hate psionics cause they think it is science fiction).

@Psyren

Sounds legit.

[Vaz]

Just don't show them Complete Psionic (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/946751).

[Dawgmoah]

I was told yesterday that many people view Psionics as less Fantasy and more Science Fiction.

First off, science fiction is a type of fantasy, I get that.

However I'm not sure how Psionics come off as science fiction, is it just the names or is there something I'm missing (quite possibly).

This is primarily a 3.5 question since I don't hear the same thing from people in the 2e games or 4e games.

Thanks!

(I was told by a DM recently that he hates SyFy and doesn't want psionics... Is it the sound psi-fi that brings this to the people's mind?)

Psionics became part of D&D in 1st edition where it was available as an optional add on in the back of the Player's Handbook. It was clunky, broken, and easily abused. That being said my players loved it and much of the brokenness was tempered by the fact a person using psionics stood a 1/20 chance of attracting a psionic monster.

And it may be the name psionics put people off. The Deryni books were popular right before 1st edition AD&D was released and was one of the largest works where mind powers replaced magic (or was the magic in a high fantasy game) so certainly influenced Gygax and Arneson.

There will always be folks who don't agree with things. As long as the group comes to a consensus the game can run. If people have different opinions on a subject you're going to have headaches.

[Segev]

For whatever reason, in science fiction, the idea of "evolved" humans having more mental powers such as telepathy, telekinesis, clairvoyance, etc. is relatively common. In some sense, the idea of "psychic powers" are slightly more acceptable as something people "credibly" claim in modern days than "magic powers." New age religions often promise psychic-type prowess more than magic.

All of this combines to make "psionics" something that is an accepted genre convention of science fiction.

If you look at "magical" fantasy settings, they often have the same powers, especially when magic is an "act of will" more than anything else.

Psionics in D&D is attempting to capture the feel and flavor of things being different from magic. So it highs to the tropes and trappings of the more modern-to-futuristic "science fiction" and "science fantasy" genres. This gives it a "sci-fi" flavor in a fantasy game.

[Perseus]

Just don't show them Complete Psionic (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/946751).

I have that book, it isn't as bad as what people say. There are some gems in that book and great ideas... I just wished it was better thought out before published.


Psionics became part of D&D in 1st edition where it was available as an optional add on in the back of the Player's Handbook. It was clunky, broken, and easily abused. That being said my players loved it and much of the brokenness was tempered by the fact a person using psionics stood a 1/20 chance of attracting a psionic monster.

And it may be the name psionics put people off. The Deryni books were popular right before 1st edition AD&D was released and was one of the largest works where mind powers replaced magic (or was the magic in a high fantasy game) so certainly influenced Gygax and Arneson.

There will always be folks who don't agree with things. As long as the group comes to a consensus the game can run. If people have different opinions on a subject you're going to have headaches.

Oh there isn't much of a problem, or a headache, I just can't make Iron Man (Warforged Psion Nomad ) and have to go another way.

The DM green lighted a Divine Anima Mage so it seems like one of the players is going Cleric/Divine Anima Mage.

Though in my 2e game I'm playing... I may make a 1e psion just for that 1/20 chance. That sounds awesome. (That DM does allow 1e stuff).

[JusticeZero]

It always annoys me. The psionics system honestly is a slightly closer fit to mystical magic traditions of ancient times in some places than the arcane magic system.
"Oh, I am fine with you having an internet port to a modern created afterlife full of machines, because you printed the instructions to do that in silver on a board. Later on, you can learn how to build a robot, or clone yourself, or create walls of force, too."
"Wait, you want to learn how to meditate and expand your awareness much like an ancient tribal shaman does? OMG, I DON'T WANT SCIENCE FICTION FUTURISTIC STUFF IN MY GAME!"

[Psyren]

It always annoys me. The psionics system honestly is a slightly closer fit to mystical magic traditions of ancient times in some places than the arcane magic system.
"Oh, I am fine with you having an internet port to a modern created afterlife full of machines, because you printed the instructions to do that in silver on a board. Later on, you can learn how to build a robot, or clone yourself, or create walls of force, too."
"Wait, you want to learn how to meditate and expand your awareness much like an ancient tribal shaman does? OMG, I DON'T WANT SCIENCE FICTION FUTURISTIC STUFF IN MY GAME!"

I giggled :smallbiggrin:

[Perseus]

It always annoys me. The psionics system honestly is a slightly closer fit to mystical magic traditions of ancient times in some places than the arcane magic system.
"Oh, I am fine with you having an internet port to a modern created afterlife full of machines, because you printed the instructions to do that in silver on a board. Later on, you can learn how to build a robot, or clone yourself, or create walls of force, too."
"Wait, you want to learn how to meditate and expand your awareness much like an ancient tribal shaman does? OMG, I DON'T WANT SCIENCE FICTION FUTURISTIC STUFF IN MY GAME!"

Ha! Nice one!

Funny enough though whenever I used any divination spells as an arcane/divine caster I fluffed it as a Skype chat/call.

This is why fluff should be divorced from crunch, I can make up my own fun explanation for things.

[Segev]

To be fair, "expanding awareness" is usually more associated with spiritualism than sorcery in myth. Which is Wisdom. Which, coincidentally, is what Divine magic tends to use. And meditating to expand one's awareness of the spiritual world is a perfectly valid way to "pray for spells."

[BWR]

Another reason for the 'psionics = SF' is that many classic SF writers wrote SF stories with psionic characters, often called 'psychics' sometimes called 'psionics'. Doc Smith's Lensman series, many of van Vogt's works (especially "Slan"), Heinlein. More modern stuff like Herbert's Dune, Akira, Vulcans, Warhammer 40K.
Call it psychic/psionic and remove the traditional trappings of magic - words, implements, gestures - and you have SF.

[JusticeZero]

I've seen a lot of sci-fi looking things that describe ritual magic in terms of computer science and programming, and yet it is "fantasy". Divine magic is described as getting power from an external source, which the spiritual traditions I am referring to are not doing. They are all about self control and empowerment through awareness of the world around them, perception, knowledge and understanding, and will. They often may not have any gods in their cosmology at all. It is a match to psionics rules more than divine spellcasters.